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Why is every Worm CYOA such a disappointment?

Discussion in 'General' started by GOG999999, Sep 4, 2020.

  1. GOG999999

    GOG999999 Your first time is always over so quickly, isn't it?

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    Seriously, every one of them that I've seen were roughly the same. Be the hero/vigilante that earth bet and every other earth needs and prevent the apocalypse with your awesome powers. Why can't there be any creativity in making it? There are tons of options other than being a hero or a vigilante, you know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
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  2. Amazon Climber

    Amazon Climber Wholesomely Depraved

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    Because if you don’t have some way to deal with Zion, then you’re making a build knowing everything you end up doing is just going to get erased by a Golden Fuck You Beam.

    Of course, there’s no reason an author couldn’t include a Zion Suicide Clause in the opening. Be the change you want to see in the world?
     
  3. TheGrumpiest

    TheGrumpiest Thread Necromancer, Ahoy!

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    Sure, I guess. I think the reason so many of read the same is that the vast majority of the Villains in Worm other than the Undersiders or Faultline's Crew ( both of whom barely count) are extremely unlikable, especially if you want to start in Brockton Bay, while most of the "Good Guys" there are at least somewhat sympathetic, if not woobies. There's not much incentive to be a gangster in BB, from a storytelling or wish fulfillment perspective.

    Most of the Worm CYOAs have a "Zion is not a problem" option, though.

    There is more to Worm than Zion throwing a tantrum, my dude. I mean, you could just set your SI after Gold Morning, if Zion is such a problem from a story perspective. Hell, set it during Ward. That could interesting; seeing those events from a lens less prone to stupid tangents than Victoria Dallon's inner monologue.
     
  4. Amazon Climber

    Amazon Climber Wholesomely Depraved

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    But they’re all just options. Which means the CYOAs still have to account for people not choosing that option. And yeah, there’s more to Worm than Zion. But that’s still like setting a dinosaur CYOA a couple of years before the
    Chicxulub impact. It kind of colors things, you know?

    Hence, my thought is take away the option. Zion just eloped with Kevin Norton, go make a sane Worm build and not a cosmic horror fighting build.

    I agree that a post-GM Worm CYOA would be a nice change of pace. But Ward doesn’t seem to be nearly as popular.
     
  5. TheGrumpiest

    TheGrumpiest Thread Necromancer, Ahoy!

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    That defeats the purpose of using Worm/Ward as a setting, IMO. There really isn't much going for Worm/Ward except the combination of Cosmic Horrors granting powers to superheros and villains. The fact that most fics treat Worm as a setting that can be fixed by one good hero is a massive disservice to Worm, when the whole point of Worm is to create a world where the Villains are the ones on top, that's slowly crumbling. Admittedly, Wildbow didn't convey this well in the main text, but it becomes much clearer when you read his Quests that he ran alongside Worm.

    Basically, I'd suggest that if you want a Superhero setting that isn't cosmic horror focused, do a street level Marvel or DC CYOA. It'll be way, way more interesting.
     
  6. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END.

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    The problem with inserting into DC, in particular, is that you have a couple of choices.

    1) You are a Hero. You have little dick syndrome because there are insanely OP heroes who are active everywhere, do everything, and have nothing wrong with them, in particular Superman and Batman. Villain organisations exist at any given time that they haven't found yet, but the best you can do is maybe up the schedule on them falling by a bit.

    2) You are a Villain. You lose once Batman notices you and points you out to Superman, or you cheat so outrageously that your readers laugh at you.

    Worm is popular because it's shit and you can make at least a bit of it better even as a villain.
     
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  7. TheGrumpiest

    TheGrumpiest Thread Necromancer, Ahoy!

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    If you say so. I figured it was because there wasn't so much continuity crap to keep track of, more than anything. That's why when you do see DC inserts, it's almost always into Young Justice, after all. Makes it much less of a hassle. I mean, there is plenty of stuff to keep Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman's dicks busy in the DCU, if you want to do a Villain SI or a Hero insert without feeling inadequate.
     
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  8. Ragura

    Ragura Versed in the lewd.

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    There are some that have a Scion is Dead option - which still leaves plenty of cosmic horror if humanity eventually leads to fight the other Entities.

    Then there is plenty in the NSFW CYOA Thread e.g. Seduction at Silver City

    Or, if you are bored with CYOAs, you could always create your own setting, or pick one form the tons of comics and superhero RPGs e.g. on driveThruRPG.
     
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  9. TheGrumpiest

    TheGrumpiest Thread Necromancer, Ahoy!

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    But that's like actual work...
     
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  10. Chastity

    Chastity Well worn.

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    These are the things that make Worm appealing as a location to use for fanfiction to the vast majority of people:
    What I like about it most is none of these things, and if I was to ever write in the setting it would take advantage of them:

    1. It has a genuinely interesting and compelling "magic system." Of course, the vast majority of Worm fics are actually "Taylor gets Kryptonian powers" rather than some actually interesting take on an Alexandria package. The powers in my KHiT quests are more a derivative of Worm's power system than they are of MHA's (arbitrary rules, don't even think about physics, no willpower saves to resist mind control so don't get hit, you don't beat the powerhouses with more biggatons, etc), despite the fact that it's a much lighter setting and otherwise significantly inspired by MHA (anime-esque, everybody has a power, heroes as celebrities/careers, etc).

    2. It is a world where the "forces of evil" are explicitly winning, which is good for underdog stuff, and is kiiiinda the logical implication of most superhero settings if you actually crunch the numbers, but this normally gets brushed under the rug. It has lots of setting elements built around a world where the bad guys are winning: the Endbringers, the Unwritten Rules, Kill Orders, the Birdcage, etc.

    The Cosmic Horror elements literally appear in the last sixth of the story. It is completely unnecessary for a story in Earth-Bet to touch on Scion, as the first five-sixths did not deal with him in any substantive way. The vast majority of fanfics - including those with dumb OP protagonists from these CYOAs - don't actually deal with him.
     
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  11. TheGrumpiest

    TheGrumpiest Thread Necromancer, Ahoy!

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    Shards don't break physics, strictly speaking, though they bend it in some crazy ways. Most of their shenanigans have to do with manipulation of multiple dimensions and space-time weirdness that is theoretically possible. Lots of powers don't really work well in the Wormverse, as I think the many, many alt-power Taylor fics that are dropped after two chapters prove. Particularly the Kryptonian ones and Tinker!Taylor fics.

    Seems kinda like Gotham with Godzilla every four months to me, my dude. Or New York in most Marvel continuities.

    I don't actually agree with that. Cosmic Horror was a part of Worm from the moment the Endbringers were introduced. That element grew as we were introduced to Echidna, Cauldron, Shards, and the Entities (and in Ward this got explored much more thoroughly) but it was there from rather early on, IMO. Plenty of powers from quite early on have an element of Cosmic Horror to them as well, like Oni Lee's power.

    This I totally agree with. Most of the Worm fiction I've actually enjoyed stayed very street level, which is where I think the Worm-verse really shines. Unfortunately, we didn't get much during the main story, but the Quests provided a lot of interesting material in that area. Ward stayed pretty high concept, but had some really interesting ideas- even if I found the portrayal of Victoria a bit... rambling.
     
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  12. Chastity

    Chastity Well worn.

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    Worm powers do not waste time thinking about physics. Theoretically they are based in physics, but, for one prominent example, they are not thinking about the relationship between energy expenditure and effect at all. Perhaps the most obvious case of this is August Prince, as his power relies on simultaneously monitoring the intent of every single person on the planet, yet does only one extremely specific thing to their decision-making processes. It would be easier for his power to just kill everybody who intends to do him harm, but it doesn't, and it won't no matter how hard he wishes or trains it. This is quite distinct from how similar powers are handled in most comic books and superhero stories.

    Lots of superhero settings, even when they go goofy with Superman, are still thinking about these kinds of basic physics issues. Worm completely ignores them, to its benefit. Your invincible force field breaks after exactly one hit, your power only ramps up in response to the presence of threats, your mind control power does only one highly specific thing, you can only make fleshsuits for canines specifically. It's not a psychological block, it's not a matter of training, it's just the way the power works. Deal with it.

    It seems like it in the sense that that's how those cities logically should be portrayed in Marvel/DC, but Worm is distinct in that they actually are treated that way. GURPS Supers was published way back in 1989 and noted that if you think about it, given how a given hero's Rogue's Gallery is almost always outnumbering the equivalent forces on the good guy side, it suggests very bad things for the world in general. Worm, unlike DC or Marvel which are tied to RL's status quo, allows this to actually effect the setting beyond the occasional bit of weirdness. The closest I can really think of is the No Man's Land arc in Batman, but it gets reset button'd in the end just like everything else. In Worm, when the Big Bad Ultimate Apocalypse happens, it destroys the world.

    There are horror elements to the setting, but all the references to Entities pre-Arc 26 don't rise far above the presence of mind flayers and aboleths in D&D, and nobody would call a D&D game cosmic horror for their presence.
     
  13. TheGrumpiest

    TheGrumpiest Thread Necromancer, Ahoy!

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    Eh, up to a point. It's actually pretty similar to how most magic superhero stories handle powers. Highly specific, not flexible, training doesn't make it stronger.

    About August Prince: There's two options. Number 1: Given that precognition is a thing, I'd argue that his Shard actually uses that kind of predictive modeling to see who it needs to modify. It's not that energy intensive, compared to Legend's lasers or Vista's space warping.
    Number 2: It's actually a one and done thing. When he triggered, every human being had a subliminal, hard coded command installed by the shard to not harm August Prince no matter the cost. Same with everyone born after, I would assume. Considering what the Simurg can do, it really isn't that big of a stretch.

    It kind of depends on the writer, to be fair. Some writers do portray the Marvel and DCU as pretty awful places to live for regular people. You usually see it through the more street level characters, like Batman, Nightwing, Morales Blue Beetle, Daredevil, Spiderman, some of the X-Men- those kinds of characters. Things only tend to look sort of rosy when you're viewing things from the lens of cosmic level characters, like Thor or Superman, who don't really interact with regular people.

    Also, what the ratio of Supervillains to Heroes says about society really depends on what you think most villains are actually motivated by. If it's privation, then I'd say that it does say some bad things about society. If it's ego, it says bad things about how power influences it's wielders. If it's pure sadism (The Joker) then it doesn't really say anything other than assholes shouldn't get power.

    Uh... Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there. I usually call campaigns that involve Aboleths or Illithids (or Daelkyr, or Quori) cosmic horror- since I usually run those sorts of campaigns with sanity mechanics.
     
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  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom BEST END.

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    I think Grumpiest is getting at stuff like Leviathan (introduced at the end of the first arc, Wildbow's numbering be damned), which is effectively Cthulhu: it attacks, you fight it, you lose, then it goes away not because of anything you did but because the stars just weren't yet right (or in this case, because some other unknowable alien god intervened). Behemoth is literally the same thing all over again.

    That's cosmic horror: the sense that you do not matter in the graand scheme of things.
    I think what Chastity is getting at is that if there are a lot of villains and they last for a while before getting stopped civilians are going to be in a mindset reminiscent of the Troubles or other long-term civil disorder, which is pretty significantly different from e.g. the IRL 70s USA.
     
  15. aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh

    aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh Not too sore, are you?

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  16. Tsee

    Tsee Banned from Space Battles

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    Worm, in my opinion, is a "puzzle" story. It's sort of a "fair play mystery," that gives the readers a bunch of tools and asks them to figure out how to solve a problem.

    The payout, for me as a reader, were these moments of insight where I went, "That's a clever solution!" or "I'd never have thought of that," or even "I could do it better!" This is important because it means that I'd walk away from the story but keep thinking about stuff like, "Ok, what would I do with Skidmark's power? How about Grue?"

    On the other side, the villains are basically puzzles, too. "Ok, you've got a rage dragon who gets stronger when he fights. If he goes too long, you lose. What do you do?" or "Ok, you've got a super-healer who, if they touch you, you lose. What do you do?'

    So, when I go into a Worm CYOA, the implicit draw is something like "Ok, we players are in the drivers seat. Let's take some OK-ish sounding power, get creative, and break this setting."

    The problem, in my opinion, is that by setting the CYOA in Brockton Bay, writers are presenting the reader with already-solved puzzles. Do we have to get creative if we already know that the secret to 'defeating' Panacea is to approach her socially, and not to use powers at all?

    Making this harder is that Wildbow writes dark worlds where there's not a lot of "Slack." The upper-tier puzzles seem like they were designed to be just barely solvable by exactly the characters in the story. That makes the story great to read, since readers go, "wow, I thought that guys was impossible but she found a way," but it also means that variant powers are kinda fucked.




    So, if I was doing Worm, I'd look for ways to deliver moments where players go "Holy Shit, We're Awesome!"

    Step 1 would be coming up with new heroes. Or, if I was too lazy to do that, I'd shuffle personalities, powersets, and roles in story. Then I can go, "OK, the head of the protectorate's super-power is turning into a massive rage-dragon. And the ABB is run by a guy who shoots beams".

    Step 2 is kind of a personal style thing, but at the start of each arc, I'd post an encrypted (Vigenère Cipher) block of text that, when decrypted, would look like:

    Then, the game would be about figuring out how these character's powers work, figuring out their defenses, and coming up with contingency plans to wreck them. The point of "post the answer, encrypted in advance" is so that, I as a QM can pull out these defenses without being accused of 'cheating' or reacting to my knowledge of the player's plans.

    If I wanted to generate some 'heat' (in the wrestling sense) I'd set my post up so that each line had a different cipher key, so I could decrypt each defense as it came up in the story. People would hate it when I sprang that on them. But they'd love the feeling of defeating a smart opponent.
     
  17. We Just Write

    We Just Write Blatantly Plural

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    Personally, the way I've always dealt with Worm via CYOA pretty much amounted to "Inspired Inventor. Upload to transhuman robot hive mind. Send von neumann constructor body to extrasolar destination. BRUTE FORCE SETTING WITH ENTIRE SOLAR MASSES OF ME!"

    It's a very effective strategy, given that literally none of the factions in Worm could follow.
     
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  18. Dakkaface

    Dakkaface Magical Defender of Justice

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    The problem is one inherent to CYOA that I like to call player vs. GM or storyteller mentalities.

    CYOA, especially complex ones, attract a certain type of person, one who likes to make characters, or look at lists of options, and play the optimization game. They look at a CYOA and think 'fuck yeah, I'll make this build, I'd do this and that, and I'd totally make the setting my bitch and win forever!' And when players write CYOA fic, they write exactly that. They're only concerned with what their characters will do. They're not concerned with making the story an engaging experience, exploring interesting corners of the setting, or coming up with cool encounters.Their primary purpose is to play a game and win, and the words they put down are just narrating the things they do to win. It's not a story, it's barely an outline. It's a list of checkboxes to tick off in order to win.

    Someone who's going to write an interesting story really has to come at the CYOA feeling out how they'd put together an interesting narrative to begin with. How will these characters create friction between each other, how does X react to Y, how can I really fuck with my MC to throw a wrench in their plan? How can I make some of the options of the CYOA less powerful or limited in unexpected ways to allow for certain plots? The CYOA becomes a creative springboard for story, not a set of character-builder rules.

    And then with Worm CYOA specifically - it's locked down. Worm as a setting is bare as fuck in most places and very detailed for a short window of time in Brockton Bay. The characters that readers are invested in are almost all in the Bay. So for players, Worm is largely just an adventure module for the period of time between April and July 2011, Arguably there's enough setting info to call it mid 2010 to mid 2011. That means the vast majority of them are going to drift to the Bay, set up shop as a hero/gentleman villain, and then proceed to help Taylor, revenge on the trio, fix Panpan, help the Undersiders, beat up the Nazis and the ABB, bag their preferred waifu, and then win the module. Woo. And most CYOA players are players, not storytellers.

    For GM mentalities, there's not a lot of freedom in Worm CYOA. The choice is to have relative creative freedom by writing a story set in a spot nobody cares about, about OC's nobody cares about, and will never be interesting to anyone but themselves, or write about Brockton Bay, where we have so much info that you have to go full AU to make the setting bend to do what you want, or you're constrained to doing interesting character pieces and endless 'how does X faction or Y person react to new cape in BB?'
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020