Make a Contract With Me! [Lag Backup Thread]

[notgreat]

Would it be possible to get all the story posts available here? It'd really help during lag times.
(repost from SB due to lag, with added arguments for Arsenal)

[X] Arsenal 4 (60k)
[X] Speed 2 (+1-> 25k)
[X] Perception II 2 (+1-> 25k)

While theoretically we don't have enough XP to do this, it only requires an additional 9.4K XP, something that we're almost certain to get by the time the next update comes up given how fast we're getting XP.

It's been outright stated by our GM that high-level Arsenal is one of the strongest powers we can get, and (as others have said) it's a common ability for a reason; it's a very strong and useful ability. Arsenal's ultimate may require a bit of setup, but that just makes it perfect for taking down any strong opponent like a Walpurgisnacht or that one guy we all hate. It's not so useful against witches, but we don't need to worry about that too much anyway. Arsenal is extremely versatile, as it grants us a whole toolbox of abilities we can use in various ways. Note that Discreet+Scope won't let us shoot through walls that well- we can see through the walls but our bullets still waste most of their energy on the first target.

Hmm.. How about "Violence should be Discrete"? It should be taken one piece at a time, one enemy at a time.


We've been getting blitzed like crazy, and getting one more point in speed will help prevent us from being hit like that all the time.

Perception is special- while we don't know what it does, I really doubt Rihaku would give us a stat that does absolutely nothing. It may not be worthwhile, but it's a risk; and we can take a risk like this right now, when we're not under extreme pressure. It has a very high potential upside, and I think it's worth it; though it certainly is a gamble, no question there. It's almost certainly linked to magic of some sort, and it seems very likely that it will put us on the route of being able to use our special, unique magic.

 

[Alectai]

Alectai, buck up. I don't care all that much about the Arsenal/Discreet stuff, I just happen to think the latter fits the established character better. Constantly bemoaning your imminent loss is liable to turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't be half as pissed off if I was losing to good arguments.

Right now, the arguments are basically "If we go discreet, nobody will ever see us and we can do everything with impunity", when it does nothing for our personal stealth, we can get a similar outcome with Arsenal and using remote-attacks.

In short, it's basically saying "Everything will be fine, because everyone else is dumb, and we'll never run into a bad matchup for us".

If we get a bad matchup with Arsenal, we can still withdraw. If we get a bad matchup with Discreet, and they get a bead on us... Welp, game over.

I can think of many ways of getting out of a bad matchup with Arsenal though--attacking initially through a remote, setting up turrets behind us to cover our escape, many such ways.

 

[Vindictus]

Ah, reminds me of how I felt when Dapper Sniper won instead of a more pragmatic build.

Discretion, I think, is probably mostly good if we are willing to take the hit to our Ultimate s power.

 

[Orm Embar]

I wouldn't be half as pissed off if I was losing to good arguments.

Right now, the arguments are basically "If we go discreet, nobody will ever see us and we can do everything with impunity", when it does nothing for our personal stealth, we can get a similar outcome with Arsenal and using remote-attacks.

In short, it's basically saying "Everything will be fine, because everyone else is dumb, and we'll never run into a bad matchup for us".

If we get a bad matchup with Arsenal, we can still withdraw. If we get a bad matchup with Discreet, and they get a bead on us... Welp, game over.

I can think of many ways of getting out of a bad matchup with Arsenal though--attacking initially through a remote, setting up turrets behind us to cover our escape, many such ways.

Click to shrink...

Sounds like you're primarily thinking of using Arsenal to set rig the battlefield, set turrets/mines, choke points. If one ambush fails and Tetsu does his 35x speed blitz, we fall back into another street and open up there. It's not a bad idea. Should consider taking Scope in conjunction with it, though, as that's the path that gives the greatest boost with prep time.

 

[Guile]

I wouldn't be half as pissed off if I was losing to good arguments.

Right now, the arguments are basically "If we go discreet, nobody will ever see us and we can do everything with impunity", when it does nothing for our personal stealth, we can get a similar outcome with Arsenal and using remote-attacks.

In short, it's basically saying "Everything will be fine, because everyone else is dumb, and we'll never run into a bad matchup for us".

If we get a bad matchup with Arsenal, we can still withdraw. If we get a bad matchup with Discreet, and they get a bead on us... Welp, game over.

I can think of many ways of getting out of a bad matchup with Arsenal though--attacking initially through a remote, setting up turrets behind us to cover our escape, many such ways.

Click to shrink...

Nope, I went with Discreet because I like the themes presented better than Arsenal. Purely stylistic choice.

I don't care that it may be 'sub-optimal', and trust Rihaku will make it suitably compelling and potent if it wins.

 

[Alectai]

Except in that case, each option was legitimate.

Light Plate + Formalwear gave us decent magic and protection, plus an edge in stress-resistance, Double-Formalwear gives us a penalty to physical stats in exchange for what's apparently some really fucking broken exotic abilities, Modern Armour + Formalwear was pretty much explicitly a murderhobo build (Huge social malus in exchange for having stats closer to a Combat Type).

And now that we have a non-murderhobo inclination, people want us to take murderhobo actions. And I'm wrong for thinking "You know, maybe this is a bad idea?"

Then again, I'm used to being shouted down by now. After all, I'm always wrong at every turn.

 

[Alectai]

Sounds like you're primarily thinking of using Arsenal to set rig the battlefield, set turrets/mines, choke points. If one ambush fails and Tetsu does his 35x speed blitz, we fall back into another street and open up there. It's not a bad idea. Should consider taking Scope in conjunction with it, though, as that's the path that gives the greatest boost with prep time.

Click to shrink...

That was, in fact, the plan. And you'll note my vote also included increasing our Scope level as well.

Arsenal gives us Depth, it means if someone is a bad matchup, we're not instantly blown up because we put all of our eggs into the "Try not to get spotted" basket. Which also requires us to engage in every fight, because if someone else picks a fight with us, we lose automatically (Because again, it doesn't help stealth). While Arsenal can also give us abilites to help us disengage, like magical flashbangs potentially.

Yes, going Discreet might let us get a few shots off before someone can locate where we are. But we're fucked if we're ever taking on multiple targets, or if something else gets the drop on us.

 

[Alectai]

Nope, I went with Discreet because I like the themes presented better than Arsenal. Purely stylistic choice.

I don't care that it may be 'sub-optimal', and trust Rihaku will make it suitably compelling and potent if it wins.

Click to shrink...

So, you want to go murderhobo when our strength is in exotic abilities. Because "Oh hey, I think it looks cool"

 

[Vindictus]

Oy, I'm on your side in this particular instance- We shouldn't just throw away potential allies because of typical SB arrogance.

I do think that Discreet has it's benefits- Namely, potential trumping of spider senses and autododge later on.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Sounds like you're primarily thinking of using Arsenal to set rig the battlefield, set turrets/mines, choke points. If one ambush fails and Tetsu does his 35x speed blitz, we fall back into another street and open up there. It's not a bad idea. Should consider taking Scope in conjunction with it, though, as that's the path that gives the greatest boost with prep time.

Click to shrink...

Basically; arsenal gives us an exit plan and multiple avenues of attack. Discreet is very much an 'all in' route, and I'm really iffy about that because we have not exit plan for if things go FUBAR. That and Rihaku's comment about Arsenal 4 being the shit is what's compelling me to vote for it.

Nope, I went with Discreet because I like the themes presented better than Arsenal. Purely stylistic choice.

I don't care that it may be 'sub-optimal', and trust Rihaku will make it suitably compelling and potent if it wins.

Click to shrink...

Fine, but if we're stuck with having missed a shot against Tetsu and he bum-rushes our sorry ass I'm blaming you and everyone else saying 'we're in it for the style'.

 

[Orm Embar]

So, you want to go murderhobo when our strength is in exotic abilities. Because "Oh hey, I think it looks cool"

Click to shrink...

The premise that we're somehow locked into a specific playstyle because of the armor choice is flawed. Homura had an exotic ability, and her 'murderhobo' skills (how I hate that term) were just fine.

 

[Alectai]

Oy, I'm on your side in this particular instance- We shouldn't just throw away potential allies because of typical SB arrogance.

I do think that Discreet has it's benefits- Namely, potential trumping of spider senses and autododge later on.

Click to shrink...

And see? I'd be Okay with defeat with those arguments. But that's not the majority of the arguments for Discreet--many of them are "Because I think it's cool", or "I think it's thematic".

I don't agree with them, but that's an opinion I can respect.

 

[Alectai]

The premise that we're somehow locked into a specific playstyle because of the armor choice is flawed. Homura had an exotic ability, and her 'murderhobo' skills (how I hate that term) were just fine.

Click to shrink...

Uh, Homura never Became a murderhobo, she never lost sight of her goals. Hardened as fuck, but she didn't throw away trying to save everyone until it resulted in everyone getting horribly killed anyway.

And just because you hate the term, doesn't mean I'm going to stop using it. "Oh hey, nobody has a valid opinion but myself" and "Nobody else can help me, so I'm wasting time by talking to them, because I'm smarter and can learn more on my own" strike me as being... Well, really fucking stupid and arrogant.

 

[Serous]

Discreet is the better of the two. Arsenal is trying to be good at something that we are not, namely face to face combat. Our stat multiplier is completely abysmal, and we should try to never be engaged in a straight fight. While Discreet would not hide us, it would allow us to fire untraceable and undetectable bullets, allowing us to snipe without fear of revealing our position or being detected.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

The premise that we're somehow locked into a specific playstyle because of the armor choice is flawed. Homura had an exotic ability, and her 'murderhobo' skills (how I hate that term) were just fine.

Click to shrink...

Her killing power was derived from her exotic power; it was all about the time stop -> unleash dakka/prep explosives -> kick ass and take names.

Going discreet will put a greater focus on getting our one shot in for the kill; arsenal give us a much desired and needed Plan B. I'd be fine with getting discreet, but only after we have an exit strategy for if things go FUBAR. Something that's been brought up quite a bit, but hasn't been given an answer.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Discreet is the better of the two. Arsenal is trying to be good at something that we are not, namely face to face combat. Our stat multiplier is completely abysmal, and we should try to never be engaged in a straight fight. While Discreet would not hide us, it would allow us to fire untraceable and undetectable bullets, allowing us to snipe without fear of revealing our position or being detected.

Click to shrink...

How?! It's literally remote controlled sniper rifles; how in the fuck is that 'face to face combat'?

 

[Alectai]

Discreet is the better of the two. Arsenal is trying to be good at something that we are not, namely face to face combat. Our stat multiplier is completely abysmal, and we should try to never be engaged in a straight fight. While Discreet would not hide us, it would allow us to fire untraceable and undetectable bullets, allowing us to snipe without fear of revealing our position or being detected.

Click to shrink...

Except... Arsenal is good at stuff that isn't a straight fight?

Setting up remote turrets, traps, potentially getting utility devices like flashbangs. Our killing power is already superlative, we don't need to be more killy, we need to have an Exit Strategy if we run into a bad matchup, or someone else gets the drop on us. Assuming nothing will ever go wrong is folly.

 

[Orm Embar]

Uh, Homura never Became a murderhobo, she never lost sight of her goals. Hardened as fuck, but she didn't throw away trying to save everyone until it resulted in everyone getting horribly killed anyway.

And just because you hate the term, doesn't mean I'm going to stop using it. "Oh hey, nobody has a valid opinion but myself" and "Nobody else can help me, so I'm wasting time by talking to them, because I'm smarter and can learn more on my own" strike me as being... Well, really fucking stupid and arrogant.

Click to shrink...

It's a tradeoff between the tips and tricks Mami has picked up over the years and generalized stuff we could likely intuit on our own, or increased productivity and the opportunity to explore the insights from the last battle. Also, consider that the Grief Seeds are going to have to be split three ways; if we want enough energy to experiment with our derived magic, solo hunting (after having cleared what territory is/is not out of bounds) is probably more efficient.

"I don't think Mami is the best use of our time," is not the same as "Nobody else can help me." That, right there, is straw-manning.

 

[Winged One]

Nope, I went with Discreet because I like the themes presented better than Arsenal. Purely stylistic choice.

I don't care that it may be 'sub-optimal', and trust Rihaku will make it suitably compelling and potent if it wins.

Click to shrink...

I consider Arsenal Replicate to be the character-based and thematically interesting choice, and that's always why I've wanted it. The theme of Industrialized violence an affirmation that the strengths that humans have and Witches do not - technology, strategy, teamwork - are not among the things we should discard as a being between the two. It's a willingness to work with others, with allies doing the violence they're good at while we do the violence we're good at, to create a greater whole of well-crafted destruction, as goods of greater complexity than one craftsman could make are assembled in a factory. Information is also important, of course, and I am neutral on making our personal violence Discreet eventually once we have my favorites.

 

[Alectai]

It's a tradeoff between the tips and tricks Mami has picked up over the years and generalized stuff we could likely intuit on our own, or increased productivity and the opportunity to explore the insights from the last battle. Also, consider that the Grief Seeds are going to have to be split three ways; if we want enough energy to experiment with our derived magic, solo hunting (after having cleared what territory is/is not out of bounds) is probably more efficient.

"I don't think Mami is the best use of our time," is not the same as "Nobody else can help me." That, right there, is straw-manning.

Click to shrink...

There were Several arguments that Mami is a dumbfuck who shouldn't be listened to in the SB thread before lag struck, I'm not just responding to you in that sense.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

There were Several arguments that Mami is a dumbfuck who shouldn't be listened to in the SB thread before lag struck, I'm not just responding to you in that sense.

Click to shrink...

While I'm in the Politely Decline camp; I do not think Mami is stupid. I just think that whatever insights and tips she have isn't equal to the gains of intense training. I'm not willing to believe that her magic works the same as ours; so by that logic it's less copying what she does and more her having suggestions based on her experience.

When it comes to that, I don't think her hints will reveal to us our Derived Magic; the one major factor I think her input would be the most useful.

 

[Alectai]

And I believe otherwise Ender, because there's a thousand little things that a veteran picks up that aren't necessarily intuitive to a newcomer, a hundred potential mis-steps, and even a few weeks of instruction and tips would polish a lot of the rough-edges off of our combat style.

And while we may not necessarily use the exact same kind of magic, it seems similar enough at a glance that insights can still be gained--and it'll familarize ourselves with how Magi actually fight.

 

[Orm Embar]

Derived magic is extremely personalized. More magical energy to experiment with is the factor most likely to contribute to a revelation in that corner; even the most optimistic interpretation of Mami's competence grants her the ability to intuitively understand another person's magic.

 

[Guile]

Fine, but if we're stuck with having missed a shot against Tetsu and he bum-rushes our sorry ass I'm blaming you and everyone else saying 'we're in it for the style'.

Click to shrink...

... No? Because with Discreet, a missed shot doesn't reveal our location.

... Presumably. I don't think Rihaku has given us actual level 1, level 2, etc.

I consider Arsenal Replicate to be the character-based and thematically interesting choice, and that's always why I've wanted it. The theme of Industrialized violence an affirmation that the strengths that humans have and Witches do not - technology, strategy, teamwork - are not among the things we should discard as a being between the two. It's a willingness to work with others, with allies doing the violence they're good at while we do the violence we're good at, to create a greater whole of well-crafted destruction, as goods of greater complexity than one craftsman could make are assembled in a factory. Information is also important, of course, and I am neutral on making our personal violence Discreet eventually once we have my favorites.

Click to shrink...

I think that having an untraceable overwatch works fine with teamwork and strategy.

 

[notgreat]

This analysis is going to cover all information that Kyubey has given us about what he is.

I'm going to preface this with the assumption that Kyubey never lies directly, but will skip information and do the best it possibly can to mislead anyone it is talking to.

"Critical system failure - - - this terminal has lost connection with the source - - - separation of conscious awareness - - - routing independent operations - - - core functionality intact - - - begin recovery protocol - - -" it said, somehow speaking directly into your mind. Its voice resembled a boy's, but distorted as if played through a poor recording.

Click to shrink...

Ok, this starts off with quite a bit of interesting information, but it's very hard to interpret. Why would it have prerecorded speech? I'm thinking that it's an act explicitly designed to make us think of it more of a machine than a person. Why would it do that? I'll explain later on once I reveal what I think is going on behind the scenes.

"I am Kyubey, a Magical Messenger! I am dying, but if you make a contract with me, we can both survive. I will grant a wish of yours, and in exchange, you will accept a destiny of battle as a Magician. Simply wish for me to be restored fully, saving my life, and the powers of a Magician will save your own."

Click to shrink...

This is the largest hint that something majorly wrong is going on even beyond its injury; incubators never suggest in the show, and it asking to be wished to full health shows a level of independence far beyond what any incubator-body ever should have. We know it had "lost connection with the source", and become otherwise independent, but this shows a priority on self-preservation far and above what could be expected. I think there was something about the strength of the emotions behind the wish being linked to the strength of the mage in canon, and wishing for the healing of the Magical Messenger seems designed to produce a weak mage.

"Ah," it said, "good questions, all! We Magical Messengers create Magicians, or Magical Girls, in order to fight the Liches, or Witches, that prey on humankind. Every day, thousands of innocent people are consumed by these supernatural magic-users. As a Magician, it's your responsibility to fight them! I hope you choose to fight certain other threats that are beyond ordinary comprehension, but your world is safe from them for now."

Click to shrink...

Emphasis mine. This is particularly relevant due to the number of other times he specifies "your world" in later speeches as well. I think this is a hint as to what the mid-late game is going to look like...

"That was close!" Kyubey said, appearing at your side. "Because I'm not fully restored, I was barely able to take over his terminal in time.

Click to shrink...

"Terminal". Again, making us think of the Magical Messengers as machines rather than people.

"We transfer your awareness from your neuron cluster to the jewel," the Messenger confirmed, "it's far more defensible, and provides some degree of insulation against pain-"

Click to shrink...

Far more emotional and defensive than an incubator could possibly be. Remember how canon Kyubey mentioned that emotions are seen as a disease, an illness? I think we found one who had emotions, and decided to run away from others of his kind and try to make his own path. He doesn't like his peers, and he's trying to make us think of him as a real, emotion-filled being while making the others look like mere terminals, machines.

"Kyubey!? You're alive? Oh my gosh, when we found bloody copies of you everywhere, we were so worried...what's going on?" 


Click to shrink...

I'm not 100% certain what this is for- perhaps Homura's killing spree, but there's too many possibilities. This will definitely be important though.

"My apologies," Kyubey responded, "I've suffered extreme damage and am still not fully healed. I don't have any memories of you, or any other Magical Girls in this world. Even as a Magical Messenger, my knowledge is limited, too."

[snip]

"It is possible," Kyubey interjected, "though I can only speculate, that we Messengers may have chosen to begin creating Magicians sometime after you asked." It slumps slightly, ears pointed down. "I wish I could be more helpful, but I only have access to a few of my abilities as I am now."

Click to shrink...

These two quotes are linked, and note that he's made entirely separate statements- nothing in his speech states that the lack of memories is related to the damage he's suffered. "in this world" is very important- I suspect he only recently came to Earth, and was located elsewhere until we met him/it. When he, the emotional defect, decided to leave the others of his kind, they did not like that and he took damage while getting away. Since this Kyubey's goals are not actually the saving of the universe through entropy reduction through witchification, he can go around and choose males as well as females; and perhaps some other incubators are also defecting? Or perhaps a civil war between multiple incubator factions is beginning?

There's too many possibilities to tell, but I am definitely looking forward to what comes next.

(621 words excluding quotes)

 

[LordOfMurder]

Can't level 2 of arsenal replicate most of the effects of discrete anyway? If we can create and remote fire a sniper rifle can't we just set one up then hide somewhere else and then catch our opponent in a crossfire? Or just shoot at them only with replicated sniper rifles? It's not like we need a specific weapon power to be able to hide from people but we certainly can't shoot at people with more than one gun without it.

 

[LightMage]

For the Discreet/ Arsenal debate, I'm going to have to support the Arsenal side.

It has the chance of allowing us a lot more flexibility, and fire support than Discreet does.

When I guessed our Ultimate was a Nuke with Arsenal/Scope/Silver Bullet, Rihaku confirmed that calling down A nuke was one of his ideas for that combo as an Ultimate. That's the kind of Ultimate we'd be getting. Something that lets us take out the biggest and baddest guys around.

When I see Discreet for the Ultimate, I think of something more like a Virus or Something, that in Magical Terms could bring down guys without us being noticed, but of less use against the big bads.

Also Arsenal should allow us to control all the Sniper Rifles we can make, thus allowing us to fire a Silver Bullet from any of them at a target. Or fire a different type a round. It allows us a lot more combat flexibility.

That and we can set up a Sniper Rifle and just fire it from a distance, which allows us to remain hidden.

Discreet might mean we don't get noticed if we fire and hit someone at higher levels, but once we get enough power we're going to be one shotting witches anyway. Our Derived power might even negate the need for Discreet anyway.

We still need to guess our Derived Power. So anyone got a more detailed idea of what it might be?

 

[tzeench]

Just got an idea, but what if perception 2 is clairvoyance? Or the ability to shift our vision to somewhere else?

It'd certainly go well with lv 2 arsenal replicate allowing remote shooting, and would allow us to snipe well without actually being somewhere.

Though, there's no way I'd vote for arsenal replicate on that assumption, just thought it might make some sense as for why we have no idea what it does.

 

[LightMage]

Just got an idea, but what if perception 2 is clairvoyance? Or the ability to shift our vision to somewhere else?

It'd certainly go well with lv 2 arsenal replicate allowing remote shooting, and would allow us to snipe well without actually being somewhere.

Click to shrink...

I've brought up that a bit, to fully use our Remote Shooting we (odds are) will need to improve our Perception.

We can pull off Shirou's Unlimited Blade Works, or so I hope at higher level Arsenal.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Cavalier, you dishonest fuck, show me where anyone on the Arsenal Side ever said anything about speccing towards a melee fighter? SHOW ME, FUCKING SHOW ME!!!!

Motherfucker, your winning and obession with being a ''HARDCORE SNIPAR!!'' Is worse than Alectai's bitching.

No offense Alectai.