Utopia?

[Questingdragon]

Just an interesting concept I would like some opinions on. What would your version of utopia look like? What would be the perfect world for you to live in?

Asking the few people I know IRL has lead to some interestingly disparate views, and I'm curious to see how widespread the diversity is on what we define as perfection.

I'm going to define my idea of Utopia, and I would like others to do the same. Please write your definition first, then read mine. I'm as interested in how you define the term Utopia without an example as I am with the world you describe.

Spoiler: My Definition

Basically I would like something similar to the Matrix, but with benevolent AI. You're plugged into a network, as is every other living human. Robots take care of everything physical. Strong AI provides you with round the clock care, and makes you immortal by using nanites to repair you at a sub-cellular level.

No human is allowed out of the virtual world, but each has control over what they experience inside the simulation. The Strong AI governing everything can create games, simulations, and fake relationships well enough that you'll only know if someone is real or not if you ask.

You can still hang out with other humans in virtual space, logging into and out of virtual rooms, but most of your time is spent living in whatever fantasy you most recently requested.

Pros
Everyone gets a simulation that suits their tastes
Humans will not need to change at a fundamental level, they are simply rendered incapable of inflicting true suffering on any other humans or sentient beings

Cons
Potential for stagnation? Will the AI reach for the stars?
All three people I proposed it to thought it would be horrible not to be able to accomplish anything 'real'

Pro or con?
There would be several human factions intent on destroying the AI and 'freeing' humanity. Inevitable. Their antics might be entertaining, especially when the discover that the AI finds it easier to maintain a brain than a brain and a body, and everyone is stored in boxes less than a meter in size.

This is not a very scientific query, as everyone here already worships the internet but hey, might get some interesting ideas.

 

[Biigoh]

Personally... the best Utopia is if we can get past the limitation of "capitalism" in the sense of the few controlling the resources that the many depend on.

In short, a post scarcity society where everyone's needs and wants are met, where people work because they want to or travel because they can or research new and fascinating things because they're curious.

Instead of being beholden to money; paper, metal, and data that humanity give an arbitary value to.

 

[BFldyq]

My Utopia...doesn't exist.

Utopia's, ultimately cannot exist with humans. And all methods I can think of are ultimately places I would not or could not live in. Nor can I think of a world that would be perfect for me.

Better explanation: a Utopia would not be a Utopia for me, unless everyone else found it to be a Utopia. More importantly, there's no way to create a perfect system, no matter what.

The closest I can think of would something like the Tang from Evangelion, though think more "Tumor". And frankly, that doesn't interest me.

 

[Heaven Canceler]

Dunno, maybe a child show.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Transcendence of want is the first necessary step, because scarcity leads to conflict. Unfortunately, that makes most kinds of utopia impossible because thermodynamics.

That said, a place free of discrimination would be nice. It'd also be nice to be free of the chains of physical form.
Your idea doesn't sound too bad, Interitio.

 

[Trilonias]

Utopia is a perfect society, free from greed, envy, hunger, disease and generally all things 'bad.' I also believe humans are imperfect and could never themselves make anything perfect. Also, Utopia wouldn't be boring.

And now, after reading your version, I'd have to say I'd just add that Utopia could have no cons.

 

[Sionnach]

Like Biigoh, a post scarcity society, much like Star Trek actually.

 

[Korburss]

I believe that happiness and suffering are both a deep part of life, and so much so that they are both in opposite of each other, both making one another more potent. It is also known that too much happiness makes one become numb to it, as does suffering. I believe that the more one must work, struggle, or compete the more happiness will result, while also avoiding numbness. This is the most important part of my idea of Utopia: Work/struggle/competition = Achievement/Happiness.

It is as such that I believe Utopia is a society in which every person has a place, a job within society and within each job will be a tier system as well as possibility of advancement. From their birth a person would be tested to see where they have the most aptitude and a number of options will be given to them based off those aptitudes to select what they will do, with those that are superior to their peers for whatever reason (Inborn Intelligence, strength, or even drive to succeed seeing them advance faster.) given more important job options, while those that are lesser (Even those that are deemed superior due to inborn traits may be considered in this category if they squander their inborn gifts.) will be given lesser job options. Within each job their will be a tier system and performance within this will see them valued against their peers and raised or lowered so that no one shall ever become complacent, even within a tier they feel contentment in they will need to compete against their peers to remain in that tier and rewarded depending on how highly they place within the tiers.

It is a sad fact that resources are limited and society must always be a pyramid, with those that are more important, either by personal ability or greater training, higher up that pyramid and given more for their important place in society. Each person will be given what they need and, depending on performance and importance, more. A doctor will always be given more both because it requires a higher investment of resources to become and due to its value returned, than a common laborer that requires no investment and returns little value. However a laborer that does the work of two will be rewarded more than one that only does an acceptable amount of work and if they use that reward to seek higher jobs or greater happiness, they are free to.

A baseline number of each job which is absolutely necessary for society to function will be determined, those that were deemed superior will be given these jobs. A number not absolutely necessary but still needed will be open to those that wish advancement or even just change from another job will also be determined, once this number is reached no more may enter until the number is lowered due to death or failure to maintain an acceptable amount of value output and demotion to lesser job.

My Utopia can be summed up as: Each person has a place, a job. Each person is rewarded fairly for the value they give to society. Each person may choose to advance or stagnant as they wish. Each person will be given what they need and with effort more.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

I believe that happiness and suffering are both a deep part of life, and so much so that they are both in opposite of each other, both making one another more potent. It is also known that too much happiness makes one become numb to it, as does suffering. I believe that the more one must work, struggle, or compete the more happiness will result, while also avoiding numbness. This is the most important part of my idea of Utopia: Work/struggle/competition = Achievement/Happiness.

It is as such that I believe Utopia is a society in which every person has a place, a job within society and within each job will be a tier system as well as possibility of advancement. From their birth a person would be tested to see where they have the most aptitude and a number of options will be given to them based off those aptitudes to select what they will do, with those that are superior to their peers for whatever reason (Inborn Intelligence, strength, or even drive to succeed seeing them advance faster.) given more important job options, while those that are lesser (Even those that are deemed superior due to inborn traits may be considered in this category if they squander their inborn gifts.) will be given lesser job options. Within each job their will be a tier system and performance within this will see them valued against their peers and raised or lowered so that no one shall ever become complacent, even within a tier they feel contentment in they will need to compete against their peers to remain in that tier and rewarded depending on how highly they place within the tiers.

It is a sad fact that resources are limited and society must always be a pyramid, with those that are more important, either by personal ability or greater training, higher up that pyramid and given more for their important place in society. Each person will be given what they need and, depending on performance and importance, more. A doctor will always be given more both because it requires a higher investment of resources to become and due to its value returned, than a common laborer that requires no investment and returns little value. However a laborer that does the work of two will be rewarded more than one that only does an acceptable amount of work and if they use that reward to seek higher jobs or greater happiness, they are free to.

A baseline number of each job which is absolutely necessary for society to function will be determined, those that were deemed superior will be given these jobs. A number not absolutely necessary but still needed will be open to those that wish advancement or even just change from another job will also be determined, once this number is reached no more may enter until the number is lowered due to death or failure to maintain an acceptable amount of value output and demotion to lesser job.

My Utopia can be summed up as: Each person has a place, a job. Each person is rewarded fairly for the value they give to society. Each person may choose to advance or stagnant as they wish. Each person will be given what they need and with effort more.

Click to shrink...

That's not much of a utopia. Sounds more like a dystopia to me.

 

[Korburss]

That's not much of a utopia. Sounds more like a dystopia to me.

Click to shrink...

I'm a realist and thats honestly the best I can come up with that is, in my mind, possible. However it's far from dystopia, you aren't a valueless replaceable pawn drugged up on chemicals to be made complacent. In my mind what makes dystopia is the futility, while here you can always reach for something higher and be rewarded for your efforts.

 

[BFldyq]

I'm a realist and thats honestly the best I can come up with that is, in my mind, possible. However it's far from dystopia, you aren't a valueless replaceable pawn drugged up on chemicals to be made complacent. In my mind what makes dystopia is the futility, while here you can always reach for something higher and be rewarded for your efforts.

Click to shrink...

Dystopia literally means "not-good place". One mans Utopia is anothers Dystopia.

 

[Questingdragon]

Creating something that makes everyone happy is unlikely to be possible. The thought experiment is, how would you go about it if you had godlike power, and a strong desire to try.

 

[BFldyq]

Creating something that makes everyone happy is unlikely to be possible. The thought experiment is, how would you go about it if you had godlike power, and a strong desire to try.

Click to shrink...

By not creating a single "utopia", but a multitude of them, allowing people to exist in a world/society that fits them?

 

[Korburss]

Creating something that makes everyone happy is unlikely to be possible. The thought experiment is, how would you go about it if you had godlike power, and a strong desire to try.

Click to shrink...

How "godlike"? I'd think the simplest would just be to recreate people without the ability to even recognize much less feel anything negative, the next step would be making them much more "positive" beings without the will or want to cause "negative" things, and finally make reality which runs off of laws that don't allow "negative" situations like scarcity of resources. Or at least as close to the above as possible within the definition of "godlike".

 

[Questingdragon]

How "godlike"? I'd think the simplest would just be to recreate people without the ability to even recognize much less feel anything negative, the next step would be making them much more "positive" beings without the will or want to cause "negative" things, and finally make reality which runs off of laws that don't allow "negative" situations like scarcity of resources. Or at least as close to the above as possible within the definition of "godlike".

Click to shrink...

Fully possible, but you have to consider the ramifications of free will, and just how heavily changed humanity now is. Are they still the same people?

Perfect solutions are hard to come by. This is definitely a good option, but I think it's interesting to try for something that is "perfect."

You can do anything here, the only problem is that how to 'fix' every problem without having a single human be upset by it, pre or post change. Nearly impossible, due to the nature of humanity, there are probably people who will be upset when the children stop starving in Africa, simply because there are some real bastards out there.

 

[pepperjack]

Dystopia literally means "not-good place". One mans Utopia is anothers Dystopia.

Click to shrink...

Doesn't Utopia mean something like "no place?" It's a bit tongue-in-cheek to begin with.

 

[BFldyq]

Doesn't Utopia mean something like "no place?" It's a bit tongue-in-cheek to begin with.

Click to shrink...

Technically, the word is Eutopia, meaning "good place", but they sound the same, so they ended up being squashed together.

 

[Korburss]

Fully possible, but you have to consider the ramifications of free will, and just how heavily changed humanity now is. Are they still the same people?

Click to shrink...

I've heard plenty of arguments on the subject of free will, but one that stuck out was the idea that free will is an illusion. It was a long argument and I'd recommend looking into the idea if the subject is of interest.

Further why does "humanity" matter or even being the same person matter? Are you the same person you were when you were born? The person that you were a year ago or will be in a decade? Are your most ancient ancestors or far future descendants humanity? I mean this in a couple sense, such as: Biologically by way of constant removal and replacement of every cell, meteorically in the sense that you wouldn't make all the same decisions and such or that your past self would be an incomplete of your current, and potentially 'spiritually' in far to many ways from too many beliefs for me to recite.

there are probably people who will be upset when the children stop starving in Africa, simply because there are some real bastards out there.

Click to shrink...

Well personally every idea but my first has been close to my idea of a hell. Constant competition, overcoming challenge, and rising above your peers is what I see as making life worth living. Suffering tends to be inherent in those as well, my idea just clipped down the suffering to the bear minimum and now that I think about it, could better be stated as: Happiness can only be in contrast to not suffering or escaping of suffering. Kind of similar to ideas found Buddhism, Taoism, and such now that I think of it.

 

[DCF]

Spoiler: My Definition

Basically I would like something similar to the Matrix, but with benevolent AI. You're plugged into a network, as is every other living human. Robots take care of everything physical. Strong AI provides you with round the clock care, and makes you immortal by using nanites to repair you at a sub-cellular level.

No human is allowed out of the virtual world, but each has control over what they experience inside the simulation. The Strong AI governing everything can create games, simulations, and fake relationships well enough that you'll only know if someone is real or not if you ask.

You can still hang out with other humans in virtual space, logging into and out of virtual rooms, but most of your time is spent living in whatever fantasy you most recently requested.

Pros
Everyone gets a simulation that suits their tastes
Humans will not need to change at a fundamental level, they are simply rendered incapable of inflicting true suffering on any other humans or sentient beings

Cons
Potential for stagnation? Will the AI reach for the stars?
All three people I proposed it to thought it would be horrible not to be able to accomplish anything 'real'

Pro or con?
There would be several human factions intent on destroying the AI and 'freeing' humanity. Inevitable. Their antics might be entertaining, especially when the discover that the AI finds it easier to maintain a brain than a brain and a body, and everyone is stored in boxes less than a meter in size.

Click to shrink...

I might post mine in a bit but out of curiosity what precisely does your utopia gain from forcing everyone to be in the simulation as opposed to the simulation just being an option?
I mean even the robots in this allowed you to leave the simulation even if they socially engineered everyone to stay in it and made sure you did nothing important outside of it.

 

[Questingdragon]

I might post mine in a bit but out of curiosity what precisely does your utopia gain from forcing everyone to be in the simulation as opposed to the simulation just being an option?
I mean even the robots in this allowed you to leave the simulation even if they socially engineered everyone to stay in it and made sure you did nothing important outside of it.

Click to shrink...

You've read Dresden Codak as well? Excellent. I don't allow the humans to leave the simulation for reasons similar to those seen in the comic, if they're left out, as some would chose to be, they could cause a lot of trouble.

 

[DCF]

You've read Dresden Codak as well? Excellent. I don't allow the humans to leave the simulation for reasons similar to those seen in the comic, if they're left out, as some would chose to be, they could cause a lot of trouble.

Click to shrink...

That wasn't really the moral you were supposed to take away from that...

 

[Questingdragon]

You say mediators should be made to ensue that humans feel relevant? I say that rendering humans irrelevant is a necessity for any stable society. Look at out current political systems? Politicians are set up to stymy each other at every step, and are incapable of enacting true change. It's brilliant! A way to keep anyone from disturbing the delicate status quo, which while imperfect, is slightly better than the alternative.

You could of course lie to the humans. A VR that they didn't know about perhaps? But I was trying to avoid 'oh no, the matrix, it's evil.'

 

[DCF]

Given how it ended I suspect the real answer, at least proposed by this work, is to try and lead humanity to a transhuman state rather than trying once and then giving up on everyone.

 

[Sionnach]

Given how it ended I suspect the real answer, at least proposed by this work, is to try and lead humanity to a transhuman state rather than trying once and then giving up on everyone.

Click to shrink...

But isn't that like saying the only way for people to get on with one another is to stop being human?

 

[DCF]

But isn't that like saying the only way for people to get on with one another is to stop being human?

Click to shrink...

That's better than the "lock people in boxes forever" solution.

I mean I'm not sure we need to change human nature to achieve peace, per se (I mean modern western culture is vastly more peaceful than the cultures of the past while still being entirely human). But I still do believe that many aspects of the human condition are undesirable (suffering, disease, aging, death, the brevity of love, etc).

 

[Valette-Serafina]

But isn't that like saying the only way for people to get on with one another is to stop being human?

Click to shrink...

Transhumanity is humanity+, not humanity abandoned. It may involve discarding human biology, but that's not really a bad thing.

 

[Questingdragon]

It will only be a big thing to the people who make it a big thing, as they cause trouble for those who are fine with it. Look at all the fuss with genetically modified crops, there's going to be a lot of people who fight tooth and nail against even mild transhumanism.

 

[BFldyq]

It will only be a big thing to the people who make it a big thing, as they cause trouble for those who are fine with it. Look at all the fuss with genetically modified crops, there's going to be a lot of people who fight tooth and nail against even mild transhumanism.

Click to shrink...

Give it a couple of millennia to diffuse amongst the population.

 

[Questingdragon]

Give it a couple of millennia to diffuse amongst the population.

Click to shrink...

Do you allow people to die in that time?

I'm not saying it isn't a solution. In fact I think this is the best one. It's just that part of the purpose of this thread is to prove to myself that utopia is impossible, and to create a discussion that allows a better picture of what would be the closest possible thing to it.

 

[steamrick]

You know, when I saw the topic name I somehow thought that this was gonna be about the online game Utopia.

Instead I got a thread-full of philosophy. This is philosophy, right?