Exalted 3E Discussion

[Valette-Serafina]

This is toxic to game design.

It's also unnecessary. It's never been a requirement that the Generals and Kings are better than their underlings at each underling's own job.

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Actually, it's something of a thematic element.

Exalted is inspired by such things as the Romance of Three Kingdoms, in which a General is stronger than any of his Soldiers, as a rule.
It also draws a little from Arthurian myth, and Lancelot and Galahad were noted as being exceptional for rivalling Arthur.

It also draws on earlier concepts. King used to mean War-leader and Strongest Fighter. Look at the Epic of Gilgamesh for a strong example of a Solar.
Also a Lunar, in Enkidu.

(Also, I remember the Exalted forums back before E was announced. Turns out that everything is toxic to game design. I've gotten rather tired of seeing that word with nothing to back it up. Care to say why you think it is?)

Nobody said s/he is "just" a thief, so I have to ask if you're trying to attack an argument which was not actually made.

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No. I'm arguing that Lunars should not be limited to some archtypes, and that the Sun isn't a worse thief than Luna.

I know. That's the thing I've said that I dislike: the power of Sol Invictus doing things which are very un-Sol Invictus-like because "I Win Everything" allows everything.

You clearly disagree about this being a problem, and you're not engaging with my arguments -- you're talking past me -- so maybe let's not continue.

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Firstly, it's not unlike the Sun. It's quite clearly very like the Sun, as he is the god of Excellence and Perfection. That's part of him, and has always been. If you want to change that, you've stepped too far from the setting to be playing Exalted anymore. It's very central to the setting.

Secondly, I'm engaging you arguments. I'm not conceding to them. I think you're wrong, so I'll respond.
Replying is up to you.

 

[evildice]

Actually, it's something of a thematic element.

Exalted is inspired by such things as the Romance of Three Kingdoms, in which a General is stronger than any of his Soldiers, as a rule.

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And in my formulation, the Celestials are all individually stronger than the Terrestrials. So that's fine.

It also draws a little from Arthurian myth, and Lancelot and Galahad were noted as being exceptional for rivalling Arthur.

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Celestials are on par with each other. Check.

It also draws on earlier concepts. King used to mean War-leader and Strongest Fighter. Look at the Epic of Gilgamesh for a strong example of a Solar.
Also a Lunar, in Enkidu.

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Solars are not strictly better than Lunars. Check. I'm still winning here.

(Also, I remember the Exalted forums pack before E was announced. Turns out that everything is toxic to game design. I've gotten rather tired of seeing that word with nothing to back it up. Care to say why you think it is?)

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I did already. If you can tell me what part of my previously written arguments -- not in that post, but in previous posts -- was unclear, I'd be happy to elaborate.

No. I'm arguing that Lunars should not be limited to some archtypes, and that the Sun isn't a worse thief than Luna.

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Here's my point, restated:
- Sol Invictus does not include "thief" as part of his theme.
- Luna does.
Therefore, Luna ought to be better as a thief than Sol Invictus, because Luna's design includes (BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO) being a thief.

Firstly, it's not unlike the Sun. It's quite clearly very like the Sun, as he is the god of Excellence and Perfection. That's part of him, and has always been. If you want to change that, you've stepped too far from the setting to be playing Exalted anymore. It's very central to the setting.

Secondly, I'm engaging you arguments. I'm not conceding to them. I think you're wrong, so I'll respond.
Replying is up to you.

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Sol is flawed. He's not actually perfect. If he were, he wouldn't be addicted to gaming.

That "theme" is inaccurate -- but even if it were accurate (WHICH IT IS NOT) then it would still be a poor design pillar.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

And in my formulation, the Celestials are all individually stronger than the Terrestrials. So that's fine.

It's never been a requirement that the Generals and Kings are better than their underlings at each underling's own job.

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... My. I wonder how I can possibly have misinterpreted you.

Celestials are on par with each other. Check.

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Lancelot is called the perfect knight, the greatest knight of his time. Galahad is noted as Lancelot but better.
Both are best represented as Solars, Lancelot as a Dawn.

I'll point out that I'm not arguing that Solars must always be stronger than any other Exalt. I'm arguing that Solars should have staightforward power that works very well at what they apply it to, but isn't versatile.
A Solar Warrior should fight very well, a Solar Leader should lead very well, and a Solar Ninja should sneak very well. The limit on a Solar's compitance should be where they spend their Exp.

Solars are not strictly better than Lunars. Check. I'm still winning here.

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No, what windmill are you tilting at? You're saying that equal rivals should have entirely different skillsets, and yet this?

Gilgamesh is a mighty King, who built a great wall around his city and defeated an army with his bare hands. He is two-thirds god, one third man. Solar.
Enkidu is a wild man, strong and fearless, and Gilgamesh's rival. He is two-thirds beast, one third man. Lunar.
When they meet, they wrestle but neither can overcome the other. Through this rivalry, they forge a strong friendship.

So, tell me. How exactly does that support this:

In a one-on-one fight, who should win? The Champion. That's what being a Champion is all about. If you go 1-vs-1 against a Lunar, all else being equal, you will lose.

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Well? Care to declare you've scored another point here?

I did already. If you can tell me what part of my previously written arguments -- not in that post, but in previous posts -- was unclear, I'd be happy to elaborate.

This is toxic to game design.

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Well?

Here's my point, restated:
- Sol Invictus does not include "thief" as part of his theme.
- Luna does.
Therefore, Luna ought to be better as a thief than Sol Invictus, because Luna's design includes (BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO) being a thief.

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I question your assertion. You assume that the Sun does not have theft as part of his theme.
I see no support for that position. Aside from his mastery of all skills, let us look at what is required for theft.

Knowledge. Knowing how is vital. The Sun has knowledge as part of his theme.
For pickpocketing, finesse, speed, and the ability to distract a mark. Also, the ability to read a mark to see what to steal. Is the Sun lacking any of those?
Lockpicking, to enter a restricted area. Finesse and Knowledge of locks. So, is he lacking?
Con jobs don't really come under larceny, but can you think of any difficulty the Sun would have with one?
Evading detection. So, that's speed, distraction, knowledge, not glowing. He may have a little difficulty with the last one, but as mentioned, Night.

So, care to back up your assertion that the Sun's not a thief with something more than itself?

Or perhaps you've like to show me why Luna has it as a greater part of hir theme?

Sol is flawed. He's not actually perfect. If he were, he wouldn't be addicted to gaming.

That "theme" is inaccurate -- but even if it were accurate (WHICH IT IS NOT) then it would still be a poor design pillar.

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So, firstly the Games. I don't recall Glories ever actually saying whether or not the Sun chose to be addicted. It's quite possible he could just ask Saturn to end his addiction whenever he wanted, or just ignore it.
We've got nothing on how the Games actually effect the Incarnae, as far as I recall. It's up to the storyteller.

Secondly, the Sun's divine nature doesn't care what he does. He's the god of perfection and excellence. His theme is Perfection that cannot co-exist with an imperfect world, and Perfection in endeavour. Why should he care what anyone thinks about the Games? He's having fun.

Third, back up your claim. Why would it be a poor design pillar?

 

[tehelgee]

From rereading the corebook, Lunars don't really ever get called the equals of the Solars. At the absolute most generous, they're called the Solar's spouses, but in the same sentence, it says the Solars were also the Lunar's lords.

The book paints them as freewheeling beastmen and warlords. Their grand desire isn't even to save Creation, it's to tear down the Realm because of the hurt the memories of the First Age brings.

And even the return of the Solars doesn't warrant any mention of relief or hope for the Lunars... instead there's an ominous hint that the Lunars may not be pleased to see the Solars again.

Perhaps instead of the Infernals being another enemy, since they're not even hinted at, perhaps 3e is going to turn the Lunars into an enemy(or at the very least, hostile) faction?

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Or perhaps we'll continue to treat the Lunar Exalted as three hundred of the most powerful individuals in all Creation, and stop treating them like they're a subculture.
The writers seem to have a little difficulty with that, but Creation's a big place, and the Lunar Exalted are somewhat hard to bind to a cause without reasons of their own.

 

[tehelgee]

Or perhaps we'll continue to treat the Lunar Exalted as three hundred of the most powerful individuals in all Creation, and stop treating them like they're a subculture.
The writers seem to have a little difficulty with that, but Creation's a big place, and the Lunar Exalted are somewhat hard to bind to a cause without reasons of their own.

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Personally, I think I'd do something like...

When the Lunar Exaltations were created, the Solar bond wasn't just attached, it was woven so deeply that the Lunar Exaltation depended on that bond for stability. When the Solars fell and were sealed away, nothing much happened to the Lunars at first. However, when the elder Lunars began to die for a myriad of reasons, the new Lunars were... off. The thought was that the Wyld was at fault, but it wasn't. Lacking the Solar bond it needed, the Lunar Exaltation caused changes, mental and physical, in the new Lunars. They became much more beastial in instinct and more unstable physically, prone to chimeraism. The moonsilver tattoos helped with the physical portion, but the mental issues were disguised by the change in circumstances.

Only a few elder Lunars realize the difference between the young Lunars of the First Age and those of the Age of Sorrows, and none know the cause or how to fix it. It will be up to the Solars to reestablish the bond with the Lunars and in the process, they may discover something about their own Exaltations.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. I've always been a fan of the Solars fixing the Great Curse.

 

[evildice]

... My. I wonder how I can possibly have misinterpreted you.

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It's because you see that soldier is a type of underling, and assume that all underlings are identical.

They're not.

You're conflating set membership with equality, and that's maybe part of why you're not able to engage with the arguments that I'm setting out.

This is the same type of error you made regarding my argument that Luna was a thief. S/he is a thief -- but nobody was saying Luna == Thief. Please don't continue making this sort of argument, it's not helping.

I'll point out that I'm not arguing that Solars must always be stronger than any other Exalt. I'm arguing that Solars should have staightforward power that works very well at what they apply it to, but isn't versatile.

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Yeah, that seems sensible. That can fit into a variety of design schemes -- including the one that I would prefer. So we're on the same page here, for what it's worth.

No, what windmill are you tilting at?

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Please don't be an ass. It's possible that two people can disagree without one of them being a delusional madman.

You're saying that equal rivals should have entirely different skillsets, and yet this?

Gilgamesh is a mighty King, who built a great wall around his city and defeated an army with his bare hands. He is two-thirds god, one third man. Solar.
Enkidu is a wild man, strong and fearless, and Gilgamesh's rival. He is two-thirds beast, one third man. Lunar.
When they meet, they wrestle but neither can overcome the other. Through this rivalry, they forge a strong friendship.

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(emphasis added) Yep. The Solar is not strictly better than the Lunar. They're well matched.

That goes against the core design which you propose ("Solars are better at everything than everyone"). It's a support of my central balance tenet.

Sure, it would be even better for my argument if the Lunar-ish guy won the one-on-one, but I'll take the +1 point for it being evidence against your argument even if it's not simultaneously also positive support for my own.

Well?

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The discussion started 2 pages ago. It's not unreasonable for me to ask you to read my posts within those two pages.

I question your assertion. You assume that the Sun does not have theft as part of his theme.
I see no support for that position.
(...)
Or perhaps you've like to show me why Luna has it as a greater part of hir theme?

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Yeah, I was assuming familiarity with the setting, so I didn't bother giving support.
- Sol Invictus was created to be the opposite of the Ebon Dragon. Everything the Ebon Dragon is, the Sun is supposed to not be. That means his core concept includes being bad at some things. If your version does not include that failing, then you're doing him wrong.
- Luna is repeatedly described as a trickster, including (but not limited to) such non-covert trickery as convincing Gaia to switch sides.

Spoiler: 1e corebook quote

Evading detection. So, that's speed, distraction, knowledge, not glowing. He may have a little difficulty with the last one, but as mentioned, Night.

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Since my point is that the Night caste does not fit his theme, your argument is circular.

Same deal with skills. I'm saying that "good at everything" is a bad fit, and you're replying that it's a good fit because he's "good at everything". Again, that's circular reasoning, and not a good argument.

So, firstly the Games. I don't recall Glories ever actually saying whether or not the Sun chose to be addicted. It's quite possible he could just ask Saturn to end his addiction whenever he wanted, or just ignore it.
We've got nothing on how the Games actually effect the Incarnae, as far as I recall. (...)

Secondly, the Sun's divine nature doesn't care what he does. He's the god of perfection and excellence. His theme is Perfection that cannot co-exist with an imperfect world, and Perfection in endeavour. Why should he care what anyone thinks about the Games? He's having fun.

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... and now my goalpost is not arguing a position well, it's educating you (with citations). That's just wonderful.

I'll give it a good-faith try:

http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/Thus_Spake_Zargrabowski/ShallowGods

>>>On the other hand, why did they have to be on the Equivlent of Celestial Crack? I mean Come on now! How are we suppose to have any respect for the Uncounquered Sun or the Others when there all to Busy Getting Stoned by this Game!?<<<
Several reasons --
• Distant and dislikeable gods are staples of the pulp fantasy genre. If you think the Exalted gods are pricks, read Pegana or Tales From The Flat Earth sometime.
• If the gods were all that great, you'd be asking how they could let Creation get run down, and I'd be all like, "umm, dunno."

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There, now you can't claim ignorance. It's intentional that Sol Invictus is addicted to crack. It's not a good or admirable thing. It makes him fallible and imperfect and distant and dislikeable, and all that is on purpose.

 

[Stroth]

Night Caste is a great example of a bad idea getting enshrined specifically because the designers needed to check that box on the mechanical grid.

The main creativity I see going on in Solar Stealth is the rationalization that the Sun should somehow win at darkness.

Letting other people shine is an admirable thing to do.

Hey, here's an idea: why not make the whole game like that on purpose?

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Please respond to the question that I actually asked rather than attempting to change the subject: How is stealth unlike Ignis Divine, despite him spending half his time using stealth?

 

[Silenced_Ash]

If I'm not mistaken, in his Glories of the Most High, Sol Invictus has in his panoply an ability called Perfection Beyond Imagining that basically says that he is better than everyone at everything. It allows him to spend motes to enhance any ability or attribute, at a rate of 10 successes per mote spent. Furthermore, in a competitive setting, he can spend a willpower to automatically succeed at any action with a threshold of 10 over the difficulty.

On that same page, the book also states that his only imperfection is his addiction to the Games of Divinity. Incidentally, two pages later, it details another part of his panoply that allows him to change his shape and form at will. An interesting thing to note here is that the part of that panoply that makes him radiate blinding sunlight only occurs if he doesn't suppress his Valor. Which implies that it's entirely possible for him to turn into a mouse and everyone else be none-the-wiser. It would be out of character for him, unless the ST characterizes him differently from how the books characterize him, but it could occur.

A disclaimer should be made here in that I've only ever read Exalted. I've never had the opportunity to play it, as I've never had anyone around my home who play it or are willing to play it. I love the setting though.

(as a side note, I probably shouldn't have made this be my first post....umm...hi guys?)

 

[Smuthunter]

Personally, I think I'd do something like...

When the Lunar Exaltations were created, the Solar bond wasn't just attached, it was woven so deeply that the Lunar Exaltation depended on that bond for stability. When the Solars fell and were sealed away, nothing much happened to the Lunars at first. However, when the elder Lunars began to die for a myriad of reasons, the new Lunars were... off. The thought was that the Wyld was at fault, but it wasn't. Lacking the Solar bond it needed, the Lunar Exaltation caused changes, mental and physical, in the new Lunars. They became much more beastial in instinct and more unstable physically, prone to chimeraism. The moonsilver tattoos helped with the physical portion, but the mental issues were disguised by the change in circumstances.

Only a few elder Lunars realize the difference between the young Lunars of the First Age and those of the Age of Sorrows, and none know the cause or how to fix it. It will be up to the Solars to reestablish the bond with the Lunars and in the process, they may discover something about their own Exaltations.

That's how I'd do it, anyway. I've always been a fan of the Solars fixing the Great Curse.

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That's rather deprotagonizing for Lunar fans though. I prefer the way it's going now, with the Solar Bond only getting an oblique reference or two rather than being central to the splat.

 

[Darkened]

Solars are specialists. A night caste has the best stealth, but every Lunar is one dead kitten away from amazing stealth.

Increased charm tree depth in 3E will only emphasize this more. No solar will master every, or even most charm trees.

Likewise other splats get default access to infrastructure and support systems no solar can tap without great efforts.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

It's because you see that soldier is a type of underling, and assume that all underlings are identical.

They're not.

You're conflating set membership with equality, and that's maybe part of why you're not able to engage with the arguments that I'm setting out.

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Ah, I see.
You meant that a Solar won't be better than all of her underlings, servants, and vassals, at everything.

Well, that's quite true. A Solar won't learn everything. A diplomat who favours a bow might be less skilled with a blade than his bodyguards.
That doesn't mean that his potential is less, though. It's also not a good argument for limiting the areas of her development.

If a Solar chooses to invest Exp, however, they absolutely should match everyone in that field who's equally invested.

---

This is the same type of error you made regarding my argument that Luna was a thief. S/he is a thief -- but nobody was saying Luna == Thief. Please don't continue making this sort of argument, it's not helping.

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That's mischaracterizing my argument. Drastically, in fact.
To the point that it seems deliberate. Don't accuse me of failing to engage your point unless you can honestly say that you won't.

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Please don't be an ass. It's possible that two people can disagree without one of them being a delusional madman.

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Mm. Or, perhaps, that two people can argue without one of them acting as if his inability to clarify his points was the fault of his opponent.

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(emphasis added) Yep. The Solar is not strictly better than the Lunar. They're well matched.

That goes against the core design which you propose ("Solars are better at everything than everyone"). It's a support of my central balance tenet.

Sure, it would be even better for my argument if the Lunar-ish guy won the one-on-one, but I'll take the +1 point for it being evidence against your argument even if it's not simultaneously also positive support for my own.

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... I would like you to look down. You will see, below this line, something I posted earlier.

I'll point out that I'm not arguing that Solars must always be stronger than any other Exalt. I'm arguing that Solars should have staightforward power that works very well at what they apply it to, but isn't versatile.
A Solar Warrior should fight very well, a Solar Leader should lead very well, and a Solar Ninja should sneak very well. The limit on a Solar's compitance should be where they spend their Exp.

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So. How does this support this:

In a one-on-one fight, who should win? The Champion. That's what being a Champion is all about. If you go 1-vs-1 against a Lunar, all else being equal, you will lose.

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Would you kindly explain, rather than dodge the question?

If you wish to critique my debating methods, make sure that yours are above reproach. Furthermore, if you're awarding yourself points for countering my argument, aim for the right argument.

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The discussion started 2 pages ago. It's not unreasonable for me to ask you to read my posts within those two pages.

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And I quote, from the post you quoted

I did already. If you can tell me what part of my previously written arguments -- not in that post, but in previous posts -- was unclear, I'd be happy to elaborate.

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Yeah, I was assuming familiarity with the setting, so I didn't bother giving support.

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That's a bad habit, support your arguments. I am familiar with the setting, but I am not reading your mind.

- Sol Invictus was created to be the opposite of the Ebon Dragon. Everything the Ebon Dragon is, the Sun is supposed to not be. That means his core concept includes being bad at some things. If your version does not include that failing, then you're doing him wrong.

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You're looking at Him wrong. He is more than He was created to be. That's what scared the Dragon's Shadow, who the Sun was created to oppose. Futher, he was also created by the Divine Ignition and The Empyreal Chaos.

Furthermore, you'll have to remember that the Dragon's Shadow desired an exemplar of Virtue. If the Sun was a true and absolute opposite to the Ebon Dragon, he would be weak, he would be incapable of seduction, of lying, of thwarting others.

He is quite clearly not.

- Luna is repeatedly described as a trickster, including (but not limited to) such non-covert trickery as convincing Gaia to switch sides.

This is the same type of error you made regarding my argument that Luna was a thief. S/he is a thief -- but nobody was saying Luna == Thief. Please don't continue making this sort of argument, it's not helping.

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... Yes, that's one part of hir. Seduction is one part of Luna.

So, where was that thing about the Sun distracting the Empyreal Chaos by offering Himself as a hostage in exchange for one mortal? Was that Glories?

Spoiler: 1e corebook quote

Since my point is that the Night caste does not fit his theme, your argument is circular.

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So that's one quote that's incompatible with other elements of the setting and the known history of Creation that supports your argument.
...
Well, first. Are you dismissing all of the other mentions of unmatched Excellence scattered throughout the line?
Second, do you expect me to look at something that says the Solars were created for a purpose other than murder and consider it valid? That says they're the children of the Sun, made mighty by the Spirits? Really? It's insetting fluff and propaganda from the earliest days of the setting, nothing more.

Same deal with skills. I'm saying that "good at everything" is a bad fit, and you're replying that it's a good fit because he's "good at everything". Again, that's circular reasoning, and not a good argument.

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You're saying that allowing the Solar Exalted to develop any human skill to supernatural heights is wrong, and that it hurts the game, and not elaborating. Do not accuse me of circular reasoning until you've explained how having more versatile characters hurts the game.

I am saying that if you're going to restrict the development paths of the Chosen like that, you'll just hurt the game, and that there's nothing wrong with the concept as is.

... and now my goalpost is not arguing a position well, it's educating you (with citations). That's just wonderful.

I'll give it a good-faith try:

http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/Thus_Spake_Zargrabowski/ShallowGods

There, now you can't claim ignorance. It's intentional that Sol Invictus is addicted to crack. It's not a good or admirable thing. It makes him fallible and imperfect and distant and dislikeable, and all that is on purpose.

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You needn't. I have read most of those quotes already.
The fact of the matter is that the people who made the game have their own view on the matter. I don't share that moral stance.

Without changing any of the facts, what's wrong with the Sun spending all his time playing the games of Divinity?
He's not trapped, he can leave for the Carnival of Meetings.
So, why shouldn't he play? Addicted? Perhaps, but it's quite reasonable to assume that he doesn't care.

Grabowski speaks as if the Sun has any real reason to concern himself with Creation. He doesn't. He does not hold the Mandate of Heaven, that would be the Solar Exalted.

Also, do not move your goalposts. That is another bad debating habit.

 

[Biigoh]

/me auuuuuuus!

The Bii thinks that the only good solar is a dead solar, and that the best solar is a dead one with its shard in the Jade Cage. Viva La Realm! Viva La Wyld!

 

[tehelgee]

/me auuuuuuus!

The Bii thinks that the only good solar is a dead solar, and that the best solar is a dead one with its shard in the Jade Cage. Viva La Realm! Viva La Wyld!

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...

*performs a sorcerous working to remove the concept of sake from Creation*

 

[Valette-Serafina]

/me auuuuuuus!

The Bii thinks that the only good solar is a dead solar, and that the best solar is a dead one with its shard in the Jade Cage. Viva La Realm! Viva La Wyld!

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And thus, Tanuki stew became the traditional meal for the Calibration feast.

Summonings of Third Circle Demons became very rare.

 

[Biigoh]

...

*performs a sorcerous working to remove the concept of sake from Creation*

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/me smuggles the concept of sake from Creation into the Wyld... Fuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu!

Remember, Solars are perfect at everything they do. This means they've perfected the art of DYING as the Wyld Hunt demonstrates over the centuries after the Usurpation! Granted, some of them do suck, so they can't even die properly. :3

 

[Stroth]

...

*performs a sorcerous working to remove the concept of sake from Creation*

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You show mercy. An admirable trait, but one that you shall lose in time.

*performs a sorcerous working to forbid the concept of fluffiness from all paws in Creation*

 

[Biigoh]

You show mercy. An admirable trait, but one that you shall lose in time.

*performs a sorcerous working to forbid the concept of fluffiness from all paws in Creation*

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/me pays 1 mote a day to be fluffy with fluffy paws while in Creation

 

[Stroth]

/me pays 1 mote a day to be fluffy with fluffy paws while in Creation

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Fucking raksha. This is why I never make a good diplomat. stealth attacked Order Affirming Blow!

 

[Valette-Serafina]

It's simple.

Salt and Iron.

 

[Biigoh]

Fucking raksha. This is why I never make a good diplomat. stealth attacked Order Affirming Blow!

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Parries Stroth with stupid huge PDV; (Dexterity 7 + Martial Arts 7 + Unarmed 3 + Punch Defense +2)/2 = 10 + Definition the Parameters of Battle (as a permanent mutation) 6 + Bastion of the Self (Heart) (essence rating). Yesh, a PDV of 16+(essence score) if charms or magical attacks are used... otherwise, Tanuki is immune to the attack.

 

[Happerry]

Raksha are stronker then silly exalted!

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

*is a Khaucon*
Are homebrew splats not allowed here?
I...
Well, to be honest, my splat isn't that great at a lot of things.
We're fucking terrible at dieing, for example.
We're much better at dealing with dead things, and some would call us...pretty decent at making things dead.

We've also got porcelain colored skin, smooth straight cool colored hair, and weirdly colored eyes with no pupils.
Adopt your soul mangled doll looking human-altered-into-the-kin-of-the-neverborn today!

(...so, the one time I played exalted, I actually played a Dragon of Another Color, but... gotta represent the fansplat I contributed heavily to!)

 

[Stroth]

Parries Stroth with stupid huge PDV; (Dexterity 7 + Martial Arts 7 + Unarmed 3 + Punch Defense +2)/2 = 10 + Definition the Parameters of Battle (as a permanent mutation) 6 + Bastion of the Self (Heart) (essence rating). Yesh, a PDV of 16+(essence score) if charms or magical attacks are used... otherwise, Tanuki is immune to the attack.

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I'm sorry, where was the surprise nullifier that keeps your pdv from automatically being reduced to 0?

 

[Biigoh]

I'm sorry, where was the surprise nullifier that keeps your pdv from automatically being reduced to 0?

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Imposition of Law (Perception + Awareness + Sneak Attacks)

 

[Stroth]

Imposition of Law

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Doesn't work when opposed by charm or stunt. Tanuki is slain and turned into a rock.

 

[Biigoh]

Doesn't work when opposed by charm or stunt. Tanuki is slain and turned into a rock.

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Well... if Stroth wants to play mean...

Kung Fu time... with Tiger-and-Bear Awareness. :3

 

[Stroth]

Well... if Stroth wants to play mean...

Kung Fu time... with Tiger-and-Bear Awareness. :3

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Rocks cannot use martial arts charms. Silly rock.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

*On the whole Solar/Lunar Argument*

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Despite being a newcomer into Exalted, I did do some reading up on the basics of the lore; and from what I read and how I interpret it this is what the quintessential matchup of a Lunar vs a Solar should be.

A Solar is Victory Incarnate, fueled by the power of the Unconquered Sun and made to excel and reach perfection in all things. If it can be done, a Solar can do it immaculately and to heights nigh-inconceivable to mere mortal comprehension. Hell, it'd probably be beyond a fair amount of divine comprehension because that's how Solars roll. They are the shining, radiant God-Kings of Creation who have inherited the Mandate of Heaven; who's perfection and greatness leads them to this path innately. They are better than all, and that's just the truth.

A Lunar on the other hand, is Survival and Adaptation made manifest; just as Luna has manyfold forms and can grasp at things incomprehensible, so too can her children. They are not perfect, but they can always improve upon themselves; they can adapt, they can change, and they can keep going at it until it works. The Solar succeeds because that's what they are, the Lunar succeeds because that's how they've adapted to do so. Obviously, 2e failed massively to portray this and TAW by EarthScorpion doesn't really fit it either IMO; because it just makes Lunars into eldrich Solars, and that's not what Lunars are supposed to be. The Lunars are the ever-shifting, ever-changing, ever-acting Exalted; who face problems and overcome the adversity they face, and in doing so they learn, adapt, and improve. So that they are greater against the next challenge they face.

As for what would happen if one of each of these Exalted, of equal power and experience, were to face; I would frame the result of the conflict as such: The Solar would die but win, while the Lunar would lose yet survive. Because Solars are all about victory, and Lunars all about survival. I actually based that on something I read about the development of Fate/Stay Night, where there was a planned conflict between two Servants; one of which had a 'will absolutely win 12 times' NP while his opponent had an 'absolutely survive' NP. The conflict there is basically the summation of what a conflict between a Solar and a Lunar is supposed to be, based on the central themes of each. It also works because not only does it do justice to both parties, it also doesn't end right then and there either; the Solar 'won', but his death means that that's the end of his story. Whereas despite losing, the Lunar survived and can now adapt to the loss and continue on their own journey.

Now obviously this is merely looking at things from a thematic standpoint and not a mechanical one; but I feel that by getting a clear perspective on what the thematic standpoint is, one can then start working on the mechanical parts to get things to fit those themes.

 

[kinglugia]

the development of Fate/Stay Night

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Actually that was Fate/Prototype, IIRC. >.<