Dungeon Crawler Quest(Original Fantasy)

[redaeth]

We're only meant to scout it out. If it does prove to be too dangerous we can skedaddle at the first sign it is to much. We have multiple ways to slow down pursuit now, not just the Water Prison. Our survivability is way up.

I am tired of turning down missions because we don't know what to expect. We are never going to know what we are going to encounter during a mission.

 

[ysarsid]

[X] Replenish Potions and ethers as needed
[X] Update the Guide with info from Desecrated Fortress and Ice Queen Castle.
-[X] Think about adding a section on Tame-able pets. It has been really helping your party, and could help others'.
[X] Ice Queen D rank
-[X] Equip your shiny new ice resisting dress.
-[X] Try to help Maya to upgrade her Yeti.

 

[Guile]

Why are you guys voting for one dungeon and nothing else? And you're equipping the dress that boosts the magic we CAN'T USE in that dungeon.

 

[redaeth]

Why are you guys voting for one dungeon and nothing else? And you're equipping the dress that boosts the magic we CAN'T USE in that dungeon.

Click to shrink...

We always vote for dungeons one at a time. The dress is for the ice resistance, not for the damage boost.

 

[Darkened]

I am tired of turning down missions because we don't know what to expect. We are never going to know what we are going to encounter during a mission.

Click to shrink...

We could easily ask about mission ranks and their meanings tonight. I'd be more than willing to back that.

We're only meant to scout it out. If it does prove to be too dangerous we can skedaddle at the first sign it is to much. We have multiple ways to slow down pursuit now, not just the Water Prison. Our survivability is way up.

Click to shrink...

The water prison that won't do anything to stop any high strength enemy. Running from missions is a lot more difficult than running from dungeons. Likewise, because we take a mission and run, the consequence is that no one is doing that mission. If we run on patrols, then that patrol isn't happening as it needs to. If we decide to save a town and run, that town is not getting saved until later.

Dungeons involve risking your life. Missions quite possibly involve risking the lives of many people.

 

[Guile]

The water prison that won't do anything to stop any high strength enemy. Running from missions is a lot more difficult than running from dungeons. Likewise, because we take a mission and run, the consequence is that no one is doing that mission. If we run on patrols, then that patrol isn't happening as it needs to. If we decide to save a town and run, that town is not getting saved until later.

Dungeons involve risking your life. Missions quite possibly involve risking the lives of many people.

Click to shrink...

Of course, the other possibility is that if the mission isn't done, that town gets overrun by vampires and many people die.

I can accept that you guys have valid concerns, but 'going on the mission results in peasants dying!' shouldn't be one of them. The rest of the concerns about missions seem to come down to that we have different assumptions about how Yrs's quests are run. Are they as realistic as possible, as in, will they result in us getting sneak attacked by kiln knights (or whatever) and dying? Or is Yrs trying to write a narrative, where things aren't going to immediately Bad End on us at any time?

 

[GiftofLove]

[X] Replenish Potions and ethers as needed
[X] Update the Guide with info from Desecrated Fortress and Ice Queen Castle.
-[X] Think about adding a section on Tame-able pets. It has been really helping your party, and could help others'.
[X] Switch out Fire for Dark. We might need that aura and life drain.
[X] There has been rumors of monster activity in a ruined castle. The castle has been confirmed to not be a dungeon. Number and type of enemies unknown. Extermination desired, but only scouting required. Full party required. C Rank. Reward 3000 Gilder, 1 fifteen point writ each. If monsters are exterminated, rewards will include two green race mods out of the quest givers available selection.
-[X] Careful scouting, letting Maya and Al ready their minions to act as sacrifices in case of needing to flee. Slow and steady, with Maya scouting ahead in stealth, and using her pet to draw attention to small groups for everyone to ambush. Advance slowly and cautiously. Who ever has the highest perception should keep watch specifically for anything anomalous.

 

[Guile]

Oh, and I think it may be premature to add a pet section.

I mean, the White Warg is a good find, but the yeti and the uroktar were just okay. And as a D-rank tamer, it's not like we know about any of the cool things taming can do except for 'tame one pet, use to hurt enemies.'

 

[redaeth]

Oh, and I think it may be premature to add a pet section.

I mean, the White Warg is a good find, but the yeti and the uroktar were just okay. And as a D-rank tamer, it's not like we know about any of the cool things taming can do except for 'tame one pet, use to hurt enemies.'

Click to shrink...

I agree on that, maybe if we asked Maya to always try out new creatures then we could do so.

 

[Darkened]

I can accept that you guys have valid concerns, but 'going on the mission results in peasants dying!' shouldn't be one of them. The rest of the concerns about missions seem to come down to that we have different assumptions about how Yrs's quests are run. Are they as realistic as possible, as in, will they result in us getting sneak attacked by kiln knights (or whatever) and dying? Or is Yrs trying to write a narrative, where things aren't going to immediately Bad End on us at any time?

Click to shrink...

Exactly, except not really at all.

Firstly: Either those towns got wiped out since the last missions or groups already went and cleared most of them from yesterday. The only remaining ones are the 'always here' missions and the very dangerous drake one that no one is brave enough to touch. Ergo: Most missions get cleared fairly quickly by all indications. There are a ton of branded (1/20 adults?) many of whom will reach beyond our level in time just by doing the bare minimum.

They probably don't want to adventure a lot, but do need to do so not to get penalized: Ergo there's going to be a fairly large community that takes care of such easy missions that they're probably overleveled for.

However, if we take the mission, another group won't. And if we're weak for that mission and try it anyway? We might succeed, or we might delay the help a lot of people really need if we do survive to run away.

I like narrative, I care about a good story, but narrative is weightiest when there is consequence.

I think A: Narrative doesn't mean succeeding at all. Character death often makes for a very solid narrative, and punishing bad decisions is likewise very good narratively. Tension is nice to have.

Add to that that missions lack most of the safety set-ups and have a wider variety of bad results that are narratively acceptable and don't end the quest.

So yeah, I think the missions have different, currently unknown risks. We might succeed at any of them, but the chance and consequence of failure are higher than in most dungeons.

So yes, I think story and narrative matter, but they aren't excuses to be idiots or trust the QM to save you no matter what you do.

So no, the tension is not between "satisfying story" and "Ultra-realistic world" at all.

Likewise, I think we might succeed at any of those missions, but we don't know at what cost.

Quests, at their heart, are decision making games. If every decision is just as good, there's little point to most conventional quests, ergo I don't think every decision will be as viable and rewarding.

 

[mrttao]

I am tired of turning down missions because we don't know what to expect. We are never going to know what we are going to encounter during a mission.

Click to shrink...

We don't turn them down because we don't know what to expect, we turn them down because they are stupidly suicidal and you guys alwqays vote for the most insanely suicidal mission on offer. You literally pick the most ridiculous "we are all gonna die" mission and run with it. I would vote for literally any mission other then the insane suicide one you guys rush into, and when you get one of our friends killed I am gonna be really sad and tell you guys "I TOLD YOU SO!".

However, if we take the mission, another group won't. And if we're weak for that mission and try it anyway? We might succeed, or we might delay the help a lot of people really need if we do survive to run away.

Click to shrink...

THIS TOO! We are going to have the blood of many innocents on our hands if we run away from a mission.
Missions are a way to give back to the community, I was VERY pleased with that mission we took where we saved a village from snow wolves. we did a good thing. We can do thast without being suicidal and taking down innocent civilians with us

 

[mrttao]

changing my vote
[X] Arkeus
because if I am reading it right he already has 2 votes and nobody voted for my plan.

 

[Guile]

There are a ton of branded (1/20 adults?) many of whom will reach beyond our level in time just by doing the bare minimum.

They probably don't want to adventure a lot, but do need to do so not to get penalized: Ergo there's going to be a fairly large community that takes care of such easy missions that they're probably overleveled for.

Click to shrink...

You're hypothesizing that there are tons of high level branded with nothing better to do than do low-level missions. That's fine I guess, but we don't really have any proof of that. We have that one higher level guy who was doing a patrol mission, but we have no idea if THAT patrol mission was the C-rank patrol our group would get tapped for.

However, if we take the mission, another group won't. And if we're weak for that mission and try it anyway? We might succeed, or we might delay the help a lot of people really need if we do survive to run away.

Click to shrink...

Or an even weaker party tries it and gets a TPK, like with the drakes.

I like narrative, I care about a good story, but narrative is weightiest when there is consequence.

I think A: Narrative doesn't mean succeeding at all. Character death often makes for a very solid narrative, and punishing bad decisions is likewise very good narratively. Tension is nice to have.

Add to that that missions lack most of the safety set-ups and have a wider variety of bad results that are narratively acceptable and don't end the quest.

So yeah, I think the missions have different, currently unknown risks. We might succeed at any of them, but the chance and consequence of failure are higher than in most dungeons.

So yes, I think story and narrative matter, but they aren't excuses to be idiots or trust the QM to save you no matter what you do.

So no, the tension is not between "satisfying story" and "Ultra-realistic world" at all.

Click to shrink...

That's not what I was trying to say. There are different kinds of QMs; Gibbousmoon would absolutely punish us for reaching beyond our means by killing some or all of us (hypothesizing that a C-rank mission is beyond our means of course), for example. Rihaku would do the same, and Chibi does that sometimes too. They favor a realistic world. When I QM, I want to make an interesting story. Setbacks are a part of that of course, but there's never going to be a choice you can take that results in a TPK with no hope of survival.

I'm not sure which method Yrsillar favors; I'd tend to believe he comes down on my end of the spectrum based on his Dreamer quests, but he's also said various party members have been down to 5 hp or 1 hp at various times, implying death is near at hand at all times.

 

[Grosstoad]

. . .


Missions, in comparison to Dungeons.

Con:
- Missions are not Dungeons, thus not allowing the easy escape option offered by Escape Orb.

- Missions are not Dungeons, thus not stratified into rooms, so the party might face the worst case scenario of facing the full-brunt of all the Monsters in the area.

- Missions are often one time only, thus affecting the availability and reliability of the offered information.

- Low XP, JP, Gilder, and other rewards in comparison to Dungeons.


Pro:
- Missions are not Dungeons, thus not stratified into rooms so Scouting (Stealth + Perception, or other Abilities like Divine Eye) becomes an invaluable option.

- Party is not dumped into an entry area like in Dungeons, so with scouting, a party can plan their strategy or tactics ahead of time (During Warg Hunt, the party used various tactics and strategies).

- Terrain advantages can now be utilized by both sides (Warg Hunt: higher ground, choke point, away field, etc.)

- Missions are not Dungeons, thus allowing access to Vault as well as the ability to change gears (Martials can switch weapons as well), if certain gears becomes better to handle certain circumstances.

- Fighting retreat becomes an option, in our case:
-- Disposable pets and summons to maintain aggro by keeping their attacks while the party stops attacking
-- Alice alone already has a number of spells that keeps enemies away, like Aqua Prison, Frost Spray, Wave Crash, etc.

- Access to rewards unavailable on Dungeons (Respect, Writ, etc.)

EDIT:
- Options to interact with Non-Brandeds who live out of the safe zones

 

[Cassiemouse]

May I ask you to support the scouting mission, fair Toad?

 

[Grosstoad]

I am also of the opinion that the Investigate the Castle Mission might be dangerous, but not in the same way as Bonus Boss fight is dangerous, where one use of an ability might cuts away more than half a Branded's health away.

There is the probability of it being likened to the Kiln Knight, where fighting retreat is pretty useless, because at that time the party had little ability to stall and the Knight was fast or powerful enough to get past any of the party's ability to slow it down.

But then again, it is all probability.
Is it likely to be a high enough Mission? No clear idea.

On a different measure, the party has their own minds and intellect, and as shown in the one Mission we had, can make their own plans as well, utilizing terrain advantage to their benefit.


EDIT:
Cassiemouse
I am rambling. What I meant that is I think we might be able to do Castle, if we focus on just handling investigations, and not attempting to engage the enemies. We have seen that the enemies are able to summon reinforcement and call fellow monsters once attacked.

We are not clear whether it is because of their Abilities (Summon Ally), their stats (Their allies' Perception vs. Combat noise), or just improved AI (Why are there noises there? Oh, there is supposed to be a group over there. Why haven't they come back yet?), so engaging one group might potentially call down the whole area's enemies on the party or shorten the effective Mission time.

So, if the taking down enemy groups can be caveat-ed to if they are isolated, and only when threatened to be exposed, etc.

 

[Grosstoad]

+sighs+
Yay, town vote.

[Y] 2 Amritas, 2 Ethersaere

[Y] Morning Investigations
- [Y] Check Temple about differences between Ranks, Levels, and Rarity, and how they affect Dungeons, Missions, and other things

And the general thrust for the successive choices after.

[Y] Mid-day Action
- [Y] Pick a Mission with Full Party to test out the investigation results

[Y] Afternoon Action
- [Y] Split party
-- [Y] Make a comprehensive Guide to Ranks, Levels, Rarity
-- [Y] Improve Guide to Dungeons
-- [Y] Gather more information


EDIT:

Current known facts of the Ranks, Levels, and Rarity:

Level (Character) = HP/SP, Skill slots, Inventory slots, Stat boosts, other unknown benefits (higher Divine Eye rank required)

Rarity (Job, Skill, Gear, Item) = Harder to get, better effects???

Rank (Inn, Job, Skill, Dungeon, Mission) = Better effects???
- Inn = More HP/SP healed
- Job = Is the de facto level of the Job, more HP/SP, gives more passive Abilities
- Skill = Is the de facto level of the Skill, gives more Active or Passive Abilities, improves existing Active or Passive Abilities
- Dungeon = Complexity of puzzles, length of rooms, hazards, monsters' AI, monsters' abilities?
- Mission = The Mission-giver's opinion about the needed Branded's Rank (highest Job) to fulfill the goals of the Mission

From Convo with Yrs:

Hmm, suppose it is kind of unclear. You can blame that one on by game construction I suppose.It's essentially meant to bracket missions off between easy stuff that newbies can do, and progressively more experienced teams can manage. A branded who has worked a Job up too C is one with more combat experience than one who has worked up to D.

You will find for example that once you hit B rank the gulf between each rank starts going up substantially. levels are pretty much health/SP and ability to equip better gear. nothing more, save for the every ten levels stat boost

Click to shrink...

 

[mrttao]

You're hypothesizing that there are tons of high level branded

Click to shrink...

since when are we high level? we are such newbs they don't even allow us in the auction house, we are still in the newb tavern

 

[Darkened]

You're hypothesizing that there are tons of high level branded with nothing better to do than do low-level missions. That's fine I guess, but we don't really have any proof of that. We have that one higher level guy who was doing a patrol mission, but we have no idea if THAT patrol mission was the C-rank patrol our group would get tapped for.

Click to shrink...

• 'Usual Rookies' are cautious and rarely take many missions or dungeons (mentioned when we checked out the high level inn)
• 1/20 adults are branded.
• Branded who don't do missions/dungeons will die from it.
• Simply doing the bare minimum, one will eventually accrue XP and gear and level.
• There doesn't seem to be a level cap on missions
  • It is safer to do something you are very very overleveled/geared for
  • As there is a level cap on dungeons, this makes missions safer

Ergo it is more than reasonable to assume that there are sufficient numbers of branded with more of, well, everything, than we have. Many of these are trying to avoid the inactivity penalty and therefore likely doing low-level missions as much as they can.

Ergo, yeah, we do actually have a good deal of evidence that suggests that there are high(er than us) level branded doing lower/middle tier missions.

since when are we high level? we are such newbs they don't even allow us in the auction house, we are still in the newb tavern

Click to shrink...

This, we're fast growing rookies.

We are presently the bottom of the barrel as far as actually active branded go.

 

[mrttao]

snip

Click to shrink...

you are missing a bunch of cons for missions, some of which were explicitly stated:
- if we retreat, innocents likely die
- enemies can come at us all at once in far greater numbers (you can end up getting caught by an entire army, this is part of why dark lords are so scary, also we heard rumors one of them is rising)
- fighting retreat is not possible against some foe types

 

[Grosstoad]

you are missing a bunch of cons for missions, some of which were explicitly stated:
- if we retreat, innocents likely die
- enemies can come at us all at once in far greater numbers (you can end up getting caught by an entire army, this is part of why dark lords are so scary, also we heard rumors one of them is rising)
- fighting retreat is not possible against some foe types

Click to shrink...

Heh, if we don't take the Mission, innocents are likely to die anyway, whether other Branded or non-Branded. Of course, higher level Branded might clear the Mission, but there are still innocents harmed in between anyway.

About wave of enemies, I did state that there is no rooms, but I will add that to clarify the matter.

Ah, fighting retreat might not be possible against some foe types, depending on what type of stalling actions one used.
This should be already considered into the type of actions used in the stalling, like the fact that most of the Abilities (Spells) that can stall are either Ice or Water.

On the other hand, most of the Status Effect resistance granted to Boss types in Dungeons are gone from enemies on Missions and Encounters, because there are no Boss typings on such circumstances.

 

[GiftofLove]

The Kiln knight was a critical role. Bad things happen regardless of your level when you roll horribly.

 

[Grosstoad]

More info from convo with Yrs:

Edit: Like the patrol missions, it's C rank because they want parties and branded with at least a basic idea of what your doing, and well I didn't mention it specifically in the quest text, but it is a major city mission. You would be working with other groups and have the ability to call for support if shit got out of hand. Sure there's still plenty of risk, but like I said, not suicidal even if you run across a knight again.

Click to shrink...

Separated for emphasis.

Sure there's still plenty of risk, but like I said, not suicidal even if you run across a knight again.

Click to shrink...

EDIT: Cleared up the Mission Rank's definition to "The Mission-giver's opinion about the needed Branded's Rank (highest Job) to fulfill the goals of the Mission"

 

[mrttao]

Heh, if we don't take the Mission, innocents are likely to die anyway

Click to shrink...

Wrong, if NOBODY takes a mission, or if someone LESS COMPETENT than us takes a mission, then innocents die (but in the latter case it isn't our fault).
By taking a mission we are not qualified for, we are denying someone more qualified the chance of taking it.

About wave of enemies, I did state that there is no rooms, but I will add that to clarify the matter.

Click to shrink...

Which you explicitly listed as a pro, not a con

Ah, fighting retreat might not be possible against some foe types, depending on what type of stalling actions one used.
This should be already considered into the type of actions used in the stalling, like the fact that most of the Abilities (Spells) that can stall are either Ice or Water.
On the other hand, most of the Status Effect resistance granted to Boss types in Dungeons are gone from enemies on Missions and Encounters, because there are no Boss typings on such circumstances.

Click to shrink...

Sure, but there is the occasional enemy that we simply cannot escape from... unless its a dungeon and we orb out.

 

[Grosstoad]

Wrong, if NOBODY takes a mission, or if someone LESS COMPETENT than us takes a mission, then innocents die (but in the latter case it isn't our fault).
By taking a mission we are not qualified for, we are denying someone more qualified the chance of taking it.

Which you explicitly listed as a pro, not a con

Sure, but there is the occasional enemy that we simply cannot escape from... unless its a dungeon and we orb out.

Click to shrink...

Yes, edited and clarified such matters.

 

[Darkened]

EDIT: Cleared up the Mission Rank's definition to "The Mission-giver's opinion about the needed Branded's Rank (highest Job) to fulfill the goals of the Mission"

Click to shrink...

Err, what?

A level 10 could have an A ranked job starter job because they've just slowly done starter dungeons over and over again, while, a level 30 might have a purple job and nothing above B. (Unlikely, but possible given what we know.)

More pragmatically, this seems like you'd hit A ranked jobs very very quickly and then essentially have no indications about a job's intended difficulty ever again.


yrsillar: Why this metric?

 

[yrsillar]

Perhaps it wasn't the best metric I could have chosen. I admit that. It seemed sensible at the time that I made it, would adding a minimum level suggested line for missions clarify things?

 

[Arkeus]

Perhaps it wasn't the best metric I could have chosen. I admit that. It seemed sensible at the time that I made it, would adding a minimum level suggested line for missions clarify things?

Click to shrink...

Yeah, because honestly in my mind if "C-rank" is average for missions, then it should reflect the average branded in the city, and we are still in the E-rank Inn so I expect that on average branded are level 25-30 "do the least possible to stay alive" type.

As is, it seems a bit like every missions for average branded branded who aren't lazy potatoes (so want to do harder stuff) would be A rank, and that would make the whole thing unwieldy as heck.

 

[Grosstoad]

Err, what?

Click to shrink...

+shrugs+
Convo results.

yrsillar
The easiest standard seems to be the character level, rather than Rank, since Rank applies to a number of quite different things. Level increased with gained XP and one cannot switch character levels, so that will be a good measuring stick. You can already see, from Dark and Ark's arguments, that they are already using levels as a measurement standard as well.

 

[yrsillar]

Alright, suppose thats sensible, I'll rework that in the morning then.