Firearms for little species

[Anon E Mouse]

Ran across some notes I made a while back for a plot bunny about an apocalypse where a modern earth suffers a dimensional merge with a couple of other D&D style fantasy Earths. Resulting in a mixed up world that's a strange patchwork of modern and fantasy. And I found myself wondering about small races like Halflings or Kobolds and firearms.

I mean they're only about the size of a toddler though obviously far more physically capable just due to being fully developed adults. But modern firearms are designed with average human sizes in mind, a 30 pound halfling or kobold isn't going to be carrying around a weapon a quarter or more their bodyweight and balanced for use by a creature with arms as long as they are tall. You'd need a seriously light gun that wouldn't have it's weight forward and could have the stock cut down a lot without impeding function. Then there's also the issue of how comparatively punishing recoil is going to be on a creature that has roughly 1/8 the body mass of your average adult.

After thinking about it in context I think all but the tiniest derringers would be too big for the hands of these small races. If they wanted pistols they'd end up needing to take small human sub-compact pistols and heavily modify them to make them usable. And any common rifle would be far too heavy and bulky for easy use. Their best bet would probably be finding youth guns meant for teaching children to shoot and modifying them, because even most children would be significantly larger than a halfling. I mean they might be able to take something like a AR-7 survival rifle and replace the standard stock with a much smaller cut down one that would fit them. Or possibly taking break action .410s and cutting them down to fit something literally half the size of a human.

Gnomes and Dwarves would have it better because even though they're short, they're more in the range of human child short than legit teeny-tiny like halflings or kobolds. They could just use ordinary human firearms and modify the stocks or pistol grips a bit.

 

[John_Oakman]

Crew service weapons, with certain parts (wheels, tripods, etc. depending on the weapon system) scaled down for them to handle. This will deal with the problem on the military force scale. Think of a group of them operating a 5.56 machinegun with a carriage system the same way that WWII soldiers operate a mountain gun.

As for individuals/groups, there's not really any [non magical] ways of getting around it (this also applies to bows & arrows, so before the traditionalists crow about that) the issue of effectiveness scaled down to the point of uselessness (22 caliber rifles are good for small game, but they will not pack a punch). Either their society adapt to become much more group oriented (to utilize crew service weapons already mentioned) or that there won't be small groups of them running around doing adventures (at least, not in direct combat roles).

 

[Anon E Mouse]

Crew service weapons, with certain parts (wheels, tripods, etc. depending on the weapon system) scaled down for them to handle. This will deal with the problem on the military force scale. Think of a group of them operating a 5.56 machinegun with a carriage system the same way that WWII soldiers operate a mountain gun.

As for individuals/groups, there's not really any [non magical] ways of getting around it (this also applies to bows & arrows, so before the traditionalists crow about that) the issue of effectiveness scaled down to the point of uselessness (22 caliber rifles are good for small game, but they will not pack a punch). Either their society adapt to become much more group oriented (to utilize crew service weapons already mentioned) or that there won't be small groups of them running around doing adventures (at least, not in direct combat roles).

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Yeah I'm mostly coming up blank with personal firearms something their size can use. I can absolutely see Kobolds going full WW1 and running around with crew-served weapons. They're already pretty much full-on communists by the lore with communal hatcheries and creches, and very little in the way of personal anything let alone property. Halflings at the community level would probably default to what they already frequently do and huddle in under the protective umbrella of a "big-folk" community.

Looking at it I think the only way for either of those species or another of similar size to have a practical personal firearm would be to cut down break-action .410s. They're a small enough cartridge the recoil isn't going to be absurdly punishing for them or too bulky to carry a useful amount. But still large enough to be useful on a wide variety of animals that aren't squirrel-sized. Break action .410s are already very light often under 5 pounds at full size. Chop the stock down to fit a halfling and cut the barrel down to like a foot and you could probably get one into the 2-3 pound range which is heavy but usable as a shoulder arm and a huge equalizer for something that size.

 

[Mightymutt]

Something that fires tiny piercing rounds coated in poison, like a flechette shotgun with most of the mass of the tiny longarm being a recoil management system.

Tiny peeps in settings like dnd are rogues for a reason

Daggers are their swords.

I just imagined a halfling firing a sawed off double barrel and launching itself the other direction from the recoil. Lol

 

[snthsnth]

My thoughts on midget guns.

In my experience .22lr has essentially no recoil, and is still capable of killing a human with a headshot, but the thing is that there's no practical benefit to having more than 8" of barrel on them, and you can probably get away with only 5". The cartridge gains 0 fps for any additional barrel length in real world testing, the velocity just bounces up and down. 9mm has similar results, with some differences due to the exact loading. IRL, we often accept a substantial drop in velocity to get a gun with a shorter barrel that handles better, so you'd probably see a lot of cut down barrels.

Ultra-light AR-15s can get down to 5 lbs with a rifle length barrel, which isn't much weight if the race can carry a knife. I'd still avoid rifles and rifle calibers, save for the sniper role, where the bigger size isn't as big a negative. Even then I'd only recommend 5.56mm and similar. It has to have low weight and recoil, but still maintain good killing ability. 55 grain 5.56 has that.

The biggest actual issue but a lot of that weight in pistols and rifles are balanced and sized for an adult human, and would be unwieldy for a toddler sized person. We usually put the grip between 9" and 12" away from the shoulder, which affords a comfortable shoulder firing position, called Length of Pull. Your micro people will have tiny arms, and almost no space between the shoulder pad and the grip. They can't use a bullpup, period. If their hands are small too (which they should be) they won't be able to use pistols, as the rounds are all too long to fit in the hand. Like if a human were to try to use a 7.62mm magazine as a grip.

You're also going to have to consider the logistics of carrying around ammo. .22lr is VERY LIGHT. This is very important for little people. 5.7mm and .22 WMR are also pretty darn light, but still heavier than .22lr. You're not going to be having them carry around anything heavier than 5.56mm, as the added killing potential isn't worth the lack of follow up shots.

I'd personally recommend a 10/22 with no stock and a short, carbon fiber barrel. The 10/22 has an extremely short action, so a pistol in that config would be pretty easy to rig up.

A good alternative is the Kel-Tek CMR30 and R50 for a 'heavy' rifle. These fire .22 WMR and 5.7mm respectively. More power, more speed, but both fairly luggable for small people. Only problem with them is the grip is also the magazine. Easily handwaved away or made into a miniature 'normal' rifle. A lot of weight can be saved if 'useless' features are stripped or ground off, like the picatinny rails on the top.

Give the sniper role to something like Kel-Tek's SU-16 series. It's 5.56 which is actually pretty light on recoil, but acceptable as a sniper weapon. The main advantage over the AR-15 is the lack of a buffer tube, which means that the stock can be reduced to almost nothing.

As for shotguns, just forget it. These would be impossible to carry around if they had anything approaching effective load sizes and barrel lengths, and the recoil is already punishing on some adult humans.

 

[Anon E Mouse]

As for shotguns, just forget it. These would be impossible to carry around if they had anything approaching effective load sizes and barrel lengths, and the recoil is already punishing on some adult humans.

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Overall some very good analysis of the issue. And yes people are seriously undervaluing the .22lr but they always do. I think you'd see lots of cut down skeletonized .22lr, and .22WM in use by small races in such a circumstance. 5.7x28 is simply not popular and widespread enough to last in that sort of dimensional smush apocalypse. I agree I just don't think pistols would be practical for such small races, hands too small. Now you would probably see a few of the novelty-sized micro .22lr revolvers with resized grips or various styles of derringers. But those would not be common at all.

I do have a single issue which is your total dismissal of shotguns. I was singling out the .410 for a reason, it's the only shotgun that would be feasible for something that size but it would be practical. The standard 2.75inch is basically a stretched .45colt and even for a DnD halfling that would not be too much recoil, the ammunition is still fairly small in comparison to larger shells so the ammo load would be reasonable. Single shot break actions .410s are cheap, everywhere, and mechanically simple. They're what most children are introduced to shotguns with. And they're already a very light no-frills gun that could be cut down further into something small enough to be a practical shoulder arm for a biped that size.

 

[snthsnth]

Overall some very good analysis of the issue. And yes people are seriously undervaluing the .22lr but they always do. I think you'd see lots of cut down skeletonized .22lr, and .22WM in use by small races in such a circumstance. 5.7x28 is simply not popular and widespread enough to last in that sort of dimensional smush apocalypse. I agree I just don't think pistols would be practical for such small races, hands too small. Now you would probably see a few of the novelty-sized micro .22lr revolvers with resized grips or various styles of derringers. But those would not be common at all.

I do have a single issue which is your total dismissal of shotguns. I was singling out the .410 for a reason, it's the only shotgun that would be feasible for something that size but it would be practical. The standard 2.75inch is basically a stretched .45colt and even for a DnD halfling that would not be too much recoil, the ammunition is still fairly small in comparison to larger shells so the ammo load would be reasonable. Single shot break actions .410s are cheap, everywhere, and mechanically simple. They're what most children are introduced to shotguns with. And they're already a very light no-frills gun that could be cut down further into something small enough to be a practical shoulder arm for a biped that size.

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I personally don't think much of the 410 for defense/offense. Sure it can kill, but the loads are really small. Maybe I'm underselling it, but I don't think it's of much use compared to their other options, especially with the reduced barrel lengths they'd need. But they couldn't use single shot break actions as their main option, reloading would be unacceptable when autoloaders exist. Those would be farmer/rancher guns.

To be honest though, I don't see any modern guns doing much for long if there's a proper apocalypse. The massive industrial base is needed to keep cartridges cheap and plentiful. Assuming production wasn't negatively affected though? 5.7x28 would become a mainstay round, for the halfling market. Right now it fills a niche that doesn't exist. There is no need for a weaker version of 5.56 that can't be filled by a pistol. The halfling adventurers and soldiery would buy enough that our industry would ramp up production and make it a mainstay round.

Thing is, I'd expect the ATF and gun control measures to basically get dropped totally, as everybody needs guns to stop the adventurer style monsters that pop up all around. That means gun makers will be totally unleashed to make whatever the market will buy. New guns would quickly -very quickly- get made to fill the halfling market. One month max for crappy conversion kits, two for decent ones. Three to six months for halfling versions of existing firearms, twelve for purpose built.

Expect a .50BMG assault rifle and/or a semi auto 4 Bore to get made too. There's the bigger races to consider after all.

 

[CILinkz]

well most fantasy races are pretty sturdy, even if they are on the shorter end. why not just make them not give a damn about the recoil? its enough to push them back and be innaccurate, or even let them fly off 3 meters like a cartoon every time they shoot a gun like a canon but it doesnt hurt them much, they get just back up and shoot again.

Firearms where designed as the great equalizer. no Knight that trained for his entire life neccessary, you can just give a peasant a rifle, give them a week to be comfortable with it, and he can kill any man with a bit of luck. and a lot of bodies means a lot of shots. so small races with high offspring have the advantage with firearms bc the bullet doesnt care if a toddler or a 2 m guy shoots it. it will kill anyone equally.

 

[Soupervan]

Firearms and small species don't really make sense to me (Dwarfs are an exception due to their strength of course)- if it's small enough a weapon that they won't worry about recoil it will also have to be of a rather small caliber really unless you're arming them with that sci-fi stuff, laser and plasma weapons.

I think a better option would be gas powered tranq guns, poison blow darts and the like. Seems like things goblins would prefer- one to capture live victims to do horrible things to and another to painfully kill.

 

[seeing_octarine]

If you want guns for individual halflings and .22LR isn't doing it for you, consider reaching into the 1960s for ideas and bringing gyrojets back into fashion. The increased difficulty of manufacturing microjet ammunition is a significant obstacle but they otherwise seem to fit the criteria pretty well.

 

[Anon E Mouse]

Remember the context of the original idea was that you have an apocalyptic collapse on your hand as a modern world is smushed together with several fantasy worlds. So while ideas about what new guns might be created for the newfound tiny people market is interesting it doesn't really fit the scenario. You don't get lots of new manufacturing and product innovation during a civilizational collapse. I'm trying more to get at, okay you have a scenario like this and suddenly you have these new tiny fantasy races around. What are they practically going to be able to use, even if it takes some garage gunsmithing to make it work.

And primarily I think it boils down to at an individual level they would need to use cut down youth firearms. Mostly .22lr and .410 shotguns for the simple reason that they're the most common youth firearms around. The ones most likely to be compatible with modifications to fit the little races. Basically it's a matter of working with what you've got, that those little bitty fantasy races can actually handle recoil on. They're not stupid and you'd quickly start seeing human sized weapons modified to be crew-served by the little races. But at an individual level their size makes for real constraints.