If that was the extent of his sin, that he *broke the law*, then almost everyone with the possible exception of Danny should be getting sent to the Birdcage.
Alexandria, Eidolon, Doctor Mother, Contessa, Number Man -- they have kidnapped and experimented on thousands of people, because "Scion is a dangerous alien.". Legend has been complicit in covering up the existence of Cauldron and its illegal control of the PRT.
Saint has stolen tech. AFAIK he has committed no killing, raping, kidnapping, torturing, or human experimentation. Not even putting spiders on dozens of people that Taylor has done.
I honestly don't *quite* remember the sequence of events at that junction (I need reread), but I thought that he chooses to shut her down because he feared it'd be the last chance of Dragon getting shut down that anyone would get.
As for his interference with fighting the S9000, Contessa could shut down the Slaughterhouse 9 and countless other villains any time she wanted to, but she didn't because she felt Scion took precedence. Saint is the same with Dragon.
Because he's as afraid of Dragon as her *creator* was? That's an absurd usage of the word 'bigot'. There's a better argument to be made that the Cauldron are pro-human bigots, given their fear of Scion.
We have the readers' privilege to know that the Cauldron was right in thinking Scion a threat, and that Saint was wrong to think Dragon a threat. But that's not a *moral* judgment, that's just hindsight.
Saint follows the example of both Cauldron and Taylor herself in just doing wrong things for good reasons.
I have to agree with you on the 'laws broken' section in that he committed no worse crimes than the other two, but I will point out that there was absolutely no reason for him to commit said crimes. Cauldron and Taylor had justifications, shittas Taylor's were, but Saint stole the suits because he wanted to have power and be relevant. He could easily have set up a computer lab I his basement, monitored Dragon from there, and eventually shut her down if needed. At no point was he obligated to show himself. At no point was bringing himself to Dragon's attention a good thing. Instead of being the silent, invisible watcher that he could have been, he went out and fucked it up.
Oh, and please don't list 'killing, raping, kidnapping, torturing or human experimentation' as if it was common. Cauldron is guilty of all of one of those- human experimentation. They didn't kill, rape, kidnap or torture. Any people they took
asked for it. Is the tactic of taking people about to die morally suspect? Yes, but they still agreed to it. Those same people would have died anyway, so you could even argue that it was a somewhat moral action they took by saving them. I won't, because I think it was a complete dick move to save then memory wipe.
I also don't remember the events at the point where Saint shuts Dragon down exactly, but I think it was along the lines of 'she'll find us, then no-one can stop her.'
This is stupid on multiple levels. Firstly, Saint could've tried running. Unless you want to tell me that Dragon has never found the Dragonslayer's base before, Saint has never thought of back-up plans for Dragon finding him, that Dragon sould be able to concentrate the necessary amount of firepower and focus on the Dragonslayers with the S9000 running around, ect. Ect.
Even then, Saint could've bargained. 'We'll help you fight the S9000 if you let us go for now.' 'We won't interfere while the S9000 are around.' Hell, even 'Touch us and we'll use this program to kill you.' That last on tips their hand, and makes them a real threat Dragon can't ignore, but in the meantime she won't touch them and they can kill her after the S9000 is dealt with.
The Cauldron/Saint comparison is stupid. Contessa could have killed the nine easily at any point in time. The Path to Victory would have made it simple. They chose not to because (insert reason here- the one I remember is that they wanted Jack to trigger the apocalypse when they wanted it to happen.) Saint had absolutely no reason to think the world was in immediate danger. He was, in fact, in the best position to see that Dragon had made absolutely no progress against her built-in restrictions since the day she was 'born.' Even if he couldn't escape, couldn't bargain, couldn't fight back- absolutely none of which is true, by the way- he was risking the world against the S9000 by shutting down Dragon.
Bigot isn't quite the word for this, but comparing him to her creator doesn't automatically make him reasonable. In fact, there's nothing to show that Richter wasn't also a 'bigot,' so the comparison is doubly ineffective. Saint fears Dragon because he expects that she'll go insane with power if she ever breaks her shackles, despite every bit of evidence to the contrary. Watching her wasn't a bad idea, but the sheer fanaticism Saint did it with was ridiculous. He acted as though it was a forgone conclusion that Dragon would kill/enslave all humanity if she wasn't restrained, rather than even once entertaining the thought that she might not. He wasn't treating her as a person- in fact, the way you quote the bit where he doesn't even think she has a soul later in the thread shows it pretty damn well. If anything, that makes him a bigot for deciding that because she doesn't have a meatbody, she can't have a soul/be a person.
Reader's privilege is bullshit. We aren't arguing that because we know Dragon was good Saint shouldn't have done this, we're arguing that Saint was a complete idiot who did everything wrong and had an irrational fear of Dragon.
Saint though his reasons were good. So did Taylor. Neither of them were in the right, and comparing Saint to others who also made bad decisions doesn't make Saint look any better.
a) In short, hindsight.
b) If we're to use hindsight, then Cauldron was destroying the world, as it caused the Endbringers to come into existence -- and these in turn destroyed some of the world's best thinkers and tinkers, like Alan Gramme and Andrew Richter. Cauldron pretty much managed to do *nothing* to stop the world's destruction, and Contessa would have actually saved many more lives in the long run if she'd gone after ordinary criminals and psychopaths like Slaughterhouse Nine.
So his sin is that he should have trusted the PRT instead of himself with the power to shut down Dragon? Why trust the PRT?
I like him, so he's not 'unlikable', he's just not liked by a segment of the fandom.
That just makes him a tragic figure, not an bad person.
I have just reread the chapter in question (
https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/interlude-26-donation-bonus-1/) and though you're right that he does the whole stupid "she can't be feeling love because she's written in assembly code, she can't have a soul" which is utter bollocks, he does NOT say she will try to end the world no matter what, he just considers her a very possible threat for the 'end of the world' that they all know is close by:
"What if she isn't the reason?" Dobrynja asked.
"Is, isn't. I suppose it breaks even," Saint said, shaking his head. "They're all afraid of the end of the world. She just kicked down one of the last restrictions that are holding her back. I just can't help but wonder if this is the end of the world? A quiet, silent death that passes without incident, but inevitable all the same? The point of no return, our last chance to stop her. And she does need to be stopped. We all know this"
And so lays out the argument to the point that his fellow Dragonslayers also agree, even the one who *does* believe Dragon has a soul:
"And the dragon is stopped," Mags said, her voice quiet.
"Rest her soul," Dobrynja said.
"You think she has a soul?" Saint asked, genuinely surprised.
"Yes. But that does not mean that the Dragon's reign does not need to end," Dobrynja said. "Too dangerous, as her maker said."
"Well said, my friend," Saint said.
Hindsight, huh? Because they couldn't have possibly been saving the world until the threat they
knew was going to appear showed up. This same argument works against Saint- in fact, it works better. Both of them were trying to save the world, except while Cauldron was completely certain that Zion was going to murder trillions, Saint only had his opinion that Dragon would go power-crazy to back him up.
The Endbringer bit is the 'Reader's privilege' you just denounced. Cauldron had absolutely no reason ever to think that they were the cause, not a single fucking hint beyond the way both Eidolon and the Endbringers were immune to PtV, and Zion is immune as well so it isn't like it's the sole link. We know that it's likely that David spawned the Endbringers because we hitched a ride in the heads of several key people.
Once more, if you want to argue that Cauldron was bad because it did nothing to stop the world's death and Contessa could've saved more people by not attempting to stop it, then it's easy enough to call Saint a complete moral despot because he could've released Dragon early on and saved a whole lot of people. Cauldron had no idea that they wouldn't find the single power that let them stop Zion, Saint willfully decided that Dragon was going to turn evil. Which one is worse, I wonder, if we're going to use 'hindsight' and 'reader's privilege'?
Why not trust the PRT? Don't make open-ended questions like this if you aren't going to answer them.
You like him. The majority of the fandom does not. Either way, this is irrelevant to the discussion.
Wether or not he was ineffective is also irrelevant in deciding wether or not he's a 'good' character.
In your very own quote you disprove your own argument. 'The point of no return, our last chance to stop her. And she does need to be stopped.' You say that he doesn't think she's going to go evil, when right in the same fucking quote he shows that he does. The question is if she's going to end the world right then and there, and he says maybe. He just isn't certain that that is the moment, not that he isn't certain that she needs to be killed.
The Dragonslayers are with him because they are of like mind. If they weren't, they would't be I he same fucking group.
