I, Scion [Worm silly AU]

[Atropa]

Since she isn't being possessed by a nice benevolent overlord like Ack/Mike Allen with Scion?
And might not like that fact or the changes to the plan, etc.
But I have full trust in everything working itself out fine.
(Maybe even hoping for an omake in the NSFW section, Ack? *hint hint, nudge nudge*)

 

[NemiTheNen]

So when I finished up the bit with the Merchants I went "Methadone. Methadone forever"

 

[Ack]

Also, redid the bit with Saint a tad

 

[Ack]

Since she isn't being possessed by a nice benevolent overlord like Ack/Mike Allen with Scion?
And might not like that fact or the changes to the plan, etc.
But I have full trust in everything working itself out fine.
(Maybe even hoping for an omake in the NSFW section, Ack? *hint hint, nudge nudge*)

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maybe. If I feel like it.

 

[solitare]

Maybe Mike Allen accidentally pulled Amy from I, Panacea into Eden's body? He did just come here from Amy's head, so maybe she just got dragged along for the ride.

 

[Red Sectoid]

Maybe Eden has Gladys in her head and Ack is screwing with us?

 

[Ack]

Either could be funny.

 

[doomlord9]

I thought it was obvious.

Ack is inside Zion's head looking at the Ack who is inside Eden's head.

Too bad neither one realizes it and they are intent on stopping the other from completing the cycle.

 

[The Shadowmind]

So, why a French Maid outfit for Sveta?

 

[pepperjack]

So, why a French Maid outfit for Sveta?

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Jessica Yamada deserves a little somethin' somethin'.

 

[Navrin]

Rule of Cute, of course.

 

[Ack]

So, why a French Maid outfit for Sveta?

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Because why not?

 

[Navrin]

"Sveta clearly needed clothes because I'm not THAT much of a pervert to people in the same universe as I am, and she'd look absolutely adorable in a French maid outfit." <How I've decided to interpret that until/unless evidence to the contrary is posted.

 

[Ack]

"Sveta clearly needed clothes because I'm not THAT much of a pervert to people in the same universe as I am, and she'd look absolutely adorable in a French maid outfit." <How I've decided to interpret that until/unless evidence to the contrary is posted.

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... and that's about it, actually.

 

[ArisKatsaris]

Also, redid the bit with Saint a tad

Click to shrink...

Good. Honestly I felt sick with the first version. Saint is still getting a raw deal out of all this (he's like a bazillion times more ethical than Cauldron, so why the hell is everyone treating him like more of a villain than the Triumvirate?), but the first version was just disgusting. Hur-hur let's have Saint raped and pretend he did anything to deserve it.

 

[Ack]

Good. Honestly I felt sick with the first version. Saint is still getting a raw deal out of all this (he's like a bazillion times more ethical than Cauldron, so why the hell is everyone treating him like more of a villain than the Triumvirate?), but the first version was just disgusting. Hur-hur let's have Saint raped and pretend he did anything to deserve it.

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Except that he's a DICK about how he applies his 'ethics'.

"Dragon is a dangerous AI." So he uses her built-in restrictions - the ones that prevent her from breaking the law or letting people come to harm - to steal her tech and uses it to commit crimes.

And then, when Dragon is getting close to him, despite the fact that she is ALSO keeping dozens of balls in the air when it comes to fighting the S9000, he chooses to shut her down to protect himself. When it comes down to it, he commits more crimes, harms and kills more people, than she ever did.

Saint is a bigot and a dick. Pure and simple.

But yeah, I did the first one for s & g, but the second one works better for me.

 

[ArisKatsaris]

"Dragon is a dangerous AI." So he uses her built-in restrictions - the ones that prevent her from breaking the law or letting people come to harm - to steal her tech and uses it to commit crimes

Click to shrink...

If that was the extent of his sin, that he *broke the law*, then almost everyone with the possible exception of Danny should be getting sent to the Birdcage.

Alexandria, Eidolon, Doctor Mother, Contessa, Number Man -- they have kidnapped and experimented on thousands of people, because "Scion is a dangerous alien.". Legend has been complicit in covering up the existence of Cauldron and its illegal control of the PRT.

Saint has stolen tech. AFAIK he has committed no killing, raping, kidnapping, torturing, or human experimentation. Not even putting spiders on dozens of people that Taylor has done.

And then, when Dragon is getting close to him, despite the fact that she is ALSO keeping dozens of balls in the air when it comes to fighting the S9000, he chooses to shut her down to protect himself.

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I honestly don't *quite* remember the sequence of events at that junction (I need reread), but I thought that he chooses to shut her down because he feared it'd be the last chance of Dragon getting shut down that anyone would get.

As for his interference with fighting the S9000, Contessa could shut down the Slaughterhouse 9 and countless other villains any time she wanted to, but she didn't because she felt Scion took precedence. Saint is the same with Dragon.

Saint is a bigot and a dick.

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Because he's as afraid of Dragon as her *creator* was? That's an absurd usage of the word 'bigot'. There's a better argument to be made that the Cauldron are pro-human bigots, given their fear of Scion.

We have the readers' privilege to know that the Cauldron was right in thinking Scion a threat, and that Saint was wrong to think Dragon a threat. But that's not a *moral* judgment, that's just hindsight.

Saint follows the example of both Cauldron and Taylor herself in just doing wrong things for good reasons.

 

[Sebastian13/15]

Good. Honestly I felt sick with the first version. Saint is still getting a raw deal out of all this (he's like a bazillion times more ethical than Cauldron, so why the hell is everyone treating him like more of a villain than the Triumvirate?), but the first version was just disgusting. Hur-hur let's have Saint raped and pretend he did anything to deserve it.

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Because Cauldron is saving the world, perhaps not as effectively as possible but still they are mostly correct. Meanwhile, saint is taking one of the true heroes of the setting and using Richer's technology himself, rather them, oh I don't know, Giving it to the people who specialize in dealing with para-humans and the things that they make. Then he proceeds to use said tech to steal her suits and eventually try to kill her. All around he is an unlikable character and a ineffective one. Beyond that he also has the view that being human alone makes him valuable while an AI has no intrinsic value at all and will try to end the world no matter what.

EDIT: As too your comparison of saint to cauldron keep in mind that Contessa saw that the entities would destroy the world with her perfect precog before Eden crippled it. So cauldron knew that Scion was dangerous, it was not just Saint's 'Dragon is a AI so she is evil' train of thought, and while yes, Cauldron was not as ethical as possible it was well worth an increased chance of saving the world.

 

[ArisKatsaris]

Because Cauldron is saving the world, perhaps not as effectively as possible but still they are mostly correct.

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a) In short, hindsight.
b) If we're to use hindsight, then Cauldron was destroying the world, as it caused the Endbringers to come into existence -- and these in turn destroyed some of the world's best thinkers and tinkers, like Alan Gramme and Andrew Richter. Cauldron pretty much managed to do *nothing* to stop the world's destruction, and Contessa would have actually saved many more lives in the long run if she'd gone after ordinary criminals and psychopaths like Slaughterhouse Nine.

Giving it to the people who specialize in dealing with para-humans and the things that they make.

Click to shrink...

So his sin is that he should have trusted the PRT instead of himself with the power to shut down Dragon? Why trust the PRT?

All around he is an unlikable character

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I like him, so he's not 'unlikable', he's just not liked by a segment of the fandom.

and a ineffective one.

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That just makes him a tragic figure, not an bad person.

Beyond that he also has the view that being human alone makes him valuable while an AI has no intrinsic value at all and will try to end the world no matter what.

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I have just reread the chapter in question (https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/interlude-26-donation-bonus-1/) and though you're right that he does the whole stupid "she can't be feeling love because she's written in assembly code, she can't have a soul" which is utter bollocks, he does NOT say she will try to end the world no matter what, he just considers her a very possible threat for the 'end of the world' that they all know is close by:

"What if she isn't the reason?" Dobrynja asked.
"Is, isn't. I suppose it breaks even," Saint said, shaking his head. "They're all afraid of the end of the world. She just kicked down one of the last restrictions that are holding her back. I just can't help but wonder if this is the end of the world? A quiet, silent death that passes without incident, but inevitable all the same? The point of no return, our last chance to stop her. And she does need to be stopped. We all know this"

And so lays out the argument to the point that his fellow Dragonslayers also agree, even the one who *does* believe Dragon has a soul:

"And the dragon is stopped," Mags said, her voice quiet.
"Rest her soul," Dobrynja said.
"You think she has a soul?" Saint asked, genuinely surprised.
"Yes. But that does not mean that the Dragon's reign does not need to end," Dobrynja said. "Too dangerous, as her maker said."
"Well said, my friend," Saint said.

 

[Divabot]

yay morality thread! No wait, the other thing.

Please just stop.

 

[Ack]

a) In short, hindsight.
b) If we're to use hindsight, then Cauldron was destroying the world, as it caused the Endbringers to come into existence -- and these in turn destroyed some of the world's best thinkers and tinkers, like Alan Gramme and Andrew Richter. Cauldron pretty much managed to do *nothing* to stop the world's destruction, and Contessa would have actually saved many more lives in the long run if she'd gone after ordinary criminals and psychopaths like Slaughterhouse Nine.



So his sin is that he should have trusted the PRT instead of himself with the power to shut down Dragon? Why trust the PRT?



I like him, so he's not 'unlikable', he's just not liked by a segment of the fandom.


That just makes him a tragic figure, not an bad person.



I have just reread the chapter in question (https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/interlude-26-donation-bonus-1/) and though you're right that he does the whole stupid "she can't be feeling love because she's written in assembly code, she can't have a soul" which is utter bollocks, he does NOT say she will try to end the world no matter what, he just considers her a very possible threat for the 'end of the world' that they all know is close by:

"What if she isn't the reason?" Dobrynja asked.
"Is, isn't. I suppose it breaks even," Saint said, shaking his head. "They're all afraid of the end of the world. She just kicked down one of the last restrictions that are holding her back. I just can't help but wonder if this is the end of the world? A quiet, silent death that passes without incident, but inevitable all the same? The point of no return, our last chance to stop her. And she does need to be stopped. We all know this"

And so lays out the argument to the point that his fellow Dragonslayers also agree, even the one who *does* believe Dragon has a soul:

"And the dragon is stopped," Mags said, her voice quiet.
"Rest her soul," Dobrynja said.
"You think she has a soul?" Saint asked, genuinely surprised.
"Yes. But that does not mean that the Dragon's reign does not need to end," Dobrynja said. "Too dangerous, as her maker said."
"Well said, my friend," Saint said.

Click to shrink...

Note that these are the Dragonslayers, the ones who have been enriching themselves and working alongside Saint, by cynically manipulating Dragon's own safeguards in order to steal her tech. They're about as likely to disagree with him on this as Sophia is to spontaneously stop bullying Taylor.

You also missed out the reason he pulled her plug. Not because she had kicked her last chains free, but because she was tracking him down. He knowingly cut off her aid to those opposing the S9000, putting them all in immediate danger, not to mention shutting down all the other tasks she was performing minute by minute, just to save himself from going to jail.

And he had the utter gall to dress it up as "Oh, she may or may not end the world, but let's kill her just to make sure."

 

[Aleh]

Um, quick question for the benefit of those unaware. Why is Eden being alive and having a body a bad thing?

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Eden, as of when she died, was responsible for planning out the systematic genocide of humanity. She's also Scion's equal in power and the "smart one" of the two (she was the thinker/planner; he was the muscle).

 

[ArisKatsaris]

Note that these are the Dragonslayers, the ones who have been enriching themselves and working alongside Saint, by cynically manipulating Dragon's own safeguards in order to steal her tech. They're about as likely to disagree with him on this as Sophia is to spontaneously stop bullying Taylor.

You also missed out the reason he pulled her plug. Not because she had kicked her last chains free, but because she was tracking him down. He knowingly cut off her aid to those opposing the S9000, putting them all in immediate danger, not to mention shutting down all the other tasks she was performing minute by minute, just to save himself from going to jail.

And he had the utter gall to dress it up as "Oh, she may or may not end the world, but let's kill her just to make sure."

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Okay, at this point it seems we are at the "We like Dragon, so let's pretend that Saint is The Devil Incarnate and that he has every possible flaw and no possible virtue" stage. In reality he and the Dragonslayer had 'enriched themselves' by using the Robin Hood program which stole money from organized crime -- until it was stopped by Number Man and Cauldron (who had enriched themselves by cynically *supporting* organized crime). If 'cynically enriching themselves' had been the Dragonslayers' goal, then they could have quite safely stirred quite clear from Dragon, not brought her attention to them, etc, etc.

After that the only reason they still were messing around being the Dragonslayers is because they genuinely believed Dragon to be a threat. After taking down Dragon, Saint does his best to take over her systems and assist in the takedown of Jack and in regards to every other possible threat.

And once again, if we're to fault Saint for putting the defeat of Dragon a higher priority than the fight against Jack, it's hypocritical to not fault Cauldron for doing the same about the fight against Scion, and committing *much* worse crimes than the death of a single individual.

Anyway, I'm done discussing this, there's no point -- some people just decide to irrationally hate on Saint just because they like Dragon. Also Saint is not as pretty or sexy or cool as Alexandria or Contessa, so their much more severe crimes are excused and his aren't.

 

[Adrian Nightshade]

Eden, as of when she died, was responsible for planning out the systematic genocide of humanity. She's also Scion's equal in power and the "smart one" of the two (she was the thinker/planner; he was the muscle).

Click to shrink...

That may be so, but she was still an absolute moron compared to the average human.

 

[Mr_John]

If that was the extent of his sin, that he *broke the law*, then almost everyone with the possible exception of Danny should be getting sent to the Birdcage.

Alexandria, Eidolon, Doctor Mother, Contessa, Number Man -- they have kidnapped and experimented on thousands of people, because "Scion is a dangerous alien.". Legend has been complicit in covering up the existence of Cauldron and its illegal control of the PRT.

Saint has stolen tech. AFAIK he has committed no killing, raping, kidnapping, torturing, or human experimentation. Not even putting spiders on dozens of people that Taylor has done.

I honestly don't *quite* remember the sequence of events at that junction (I need reread), but I thought that he chooses to shut her down because he feared it'd be the last chance of Dragon getting shut down that anyone would get.

As for his interference with fighting the S9000, Contessa could shut down the Slaughterhouse 9 and countless other villains any time she wanted to, but she didn't because she felt Scion took precedence. Saint is the same with Dragon.

Because he's as afraid of Dragon as her *creator* was? That's an absurd usage of the word 'bigot'. There's a better argument to be made that the Cauldron are pro-human bigots, given their fear of Scion.

We have the readers' privilege to know that the Cauldron was right in thinking Scion a threat, and that Saint was wrong to think Dragon a threat. But that's not a *moral* judgment, that's just hindsight.

Saint follows the example of both Cauldron and Taylor herself in just doing wrong things for good reasons.

Click to shrink...

I have to agree with you on the 'laws broken' section in that he committed no worse crimes than the other two, but I will point out that there was absolutely no reason for him to commit said crimes. Cauldron and Taylor had justifications, shittas Taylor's were, but Saint stole the suits because he wanted to have power and be relevant. He could easily have set up a computer lab I his basement, monitored Dragon from there, and eventually shut her down if needed. At no point was he obligated to show himself. At no point was bringing himself to Dragon's attention a good thing. Instead of being the silent, invisible watcher that he could have been, he went out and fucked it up.

Oh, and please don't list 'killing, raping, kidnapping, torturing or human experimentation' as if it was common. Cauldron is guilty of all of one of those- human experimentation. They didn't kill, rape, kidnap or torture. Any people they took asked for it. Is the tactic of taking people about to die morally suspect? Yes, but they still agreed to it. Those same people would have died anyway, so you could even argue that it was a somewhat moral action they took by saving them. I won't, because I think it was a complete dick move to save then memory wipe.

I also don't remember the events at the point where Saint shuts Dragon down exactly, but I think it was along the lines of 'she'll find us, then no-one can stop her.'

This is stupid on multiple levels. Firstly, Saint could've tried running. Unless you want to tell me that Dragon has never found the Dragonslayer's base before, Saint has never thought of back-up plans for Dragon finding him, that Dragon sould be able to concentrate the necessary amount of firepower and focus on the Dragonslayers with the S9000 running around, ect. Ect.

Even then, Saint could've bargained. 'We'll help you fight the S9000 if you let us go for now.' 'We won't interfere while the S9000 are around.' Hell, even 'Touch us and we'll use this program to kill you.' That last on tips their hand, and makes them a real threat Dragon can't ignore, but in the meantime she won't touch them and they can kill her after the S9000 is dealt with.

The Cauldron/Saint comparison is stupid. Contessa could have killed the nine easily at any point in time. The Path to Victory would have made it simple. They chose not to because (insert reason here- the one I remember is that they wanted Jack to trigger the apocalypse when they wanted it to happen.) Saint had absolutely no reason to think the world was in immediate danger. He was, in fact, in the best position to see that Dragon had made absolutely no progress against her built-in restrictions since the day she was 'born.' Even if he couldn't escape, couldn't bargain, couldn't fight back- absolutely none of which is true, by the way- he was risking the world against the S9000 by shutting down Dragon.

Bigot isn't quite the word for this, but comparing him to her creator doesn't automatically make him reasonable. In fact, there's nothing to show that Richter wasn't also a 'bigot,' so the comparison is doubly ineffective. Saint fears Dragon because he expects that she'll go insane with power if she ever breaks her shackles, despite every bit of evidence to the contrary. Watching her wasn't a bad idea, but the sheer fanaticism Saint did it with was ridiculous. He acted as though it was a forgone conclusion that Dragon would kill/enslave all humanity if she wasn't restrained, rather than even once entertaining the thought that she might not. He wasn't treating her as a person- in fact, the way you quote the bit where he doesn't even think she has a soul later in the thread shows it pretty damn well. If anything, that makes him a bigot for deciding that because she doesn't have a meatbody, she can't have a soul/be a person.

Reader's privilege is bullshit. We aren't arguing that because we know Dragon was good Saint shouldn't have done this, we're arguing that Saint was a complete idiot who did everything wrong and had an irrational fear of Dragon.

Saint though his reasons were good. So did Taylor. Neither of them were in the right, and comparing Saint to others who also made bad decisions doesn't make Saint look any better.

a) In short, hindsight.
b) If we're to use hindsight, then Cauldron was destroying the world, as it caused the Endbringers to come into existence -- and these in turn destroyed some of the world's best thinkers and tinkers, like Alan Gramme and Andrew Richter. Cauldron pretty much managed to do *nothing* to stop the world's destruction, and Contessa would have actually saved many more lives in the long run if she'd gone after ordinary criminals and psychopaths like Slaughterhouse Nine.

So his sin is that he should have trusted the PRT instead of himself with the power to shut down Dragon? Why trust the PRT?

I like him, so he's not 'unlikable', he's just not liked by a segment of the fandom.

That just makes him a tragic figure, not an bad person.

I have just reread the chapter in question (https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/interlude-26-donation-bonus-1/) and though you're right that he does the whole stupid "she can't be feeling love because she's written in assembly code, she can't have a soul" which is utter bollocks, he does NOT say she will try to end the world no matter what, he just considers her a very possible threat for the 'end of the world' that they all know is close by:

"What if she isn't the reason?" Dobrynja asked.
"Is, isn't. I suppose it breaks even," Saint said, shaking his head. "They're all afraid of the end of the world. She just kicked down one of the last restrictions that are holding her back. I just can't help but wonder if this is the end of the world? A quiet, silent death that passes without incident, but inevitable all the same? The point of no return, our last chance to stop her. And she does need to be stopped. We all know this"

And so lays out the argument to the point that his fellow Dragonslayers also agree, even the one who *does* believe Dragon has a soul:

"And the dragon is stopped," Mags said, her voice quiet.
"Rest her soul," Dobrynja said.
"You think she has a soul?" Saint asked, genuinely surprised.
"Yes. But that does not mean that the Dragon's reign does not need to end," Dobrynja said. "Too dangerous, as her maker said."
"Well said, my friend," Saint said.

Click to shrink...

Hindsight, huh? Because they couldn't have possibly been saving the world until the threat they knew was going to appear showed up. This same argument works against Saint- in fact, it works better. Both of them were trying to save the world, except while Cauldron was completely certain that Zion was going to murder trillions, Saint only had his opinion that Dragon would go power-crazy to back him up.

The Endbringer bit is the 'Reader's privilege' you just denounced. Cauldron had absolutely no reason ever to think that they were the cause, not a single fucking hint beyond the way both Eidolon and the Endbringers were immune to PtV, and Zion is immune as well so it isn't like it's the sole link. We know that it's likely that David spawned the Endbringers because we hitched a ride in the heads of several key people.

Once more, if you want to argue that Cauldron was bad because it did nothing to stop the world's death and Contessa could've saved more people by not attempting to stop it, then it's easy enough to call Saint a complete moral despot because he could've released Dragon early on and saved a whole lot of people. Cauldron had no idea that they wouldn't find the single power that let them stop Zion, Saint willfully decided that Dragon was going to turn evil. Which one is worse, I wonder, if we're going to use 'hindsight' and 'reader's privilege'?

Why not trust the PRT? Don't make open-ended questions like this if you aren't going to answer them.

You like him. The majority of the fandom does not. Either way, this is irrelevant to the discussion.

Wether or not he was ineffective is also irrelevant in deciding wether or not he's a 'good' character.

In your very own quote you disprove your own argument. 'The point of no return, our last chance to stop her. And she does need to be stopped.' You say that he doesn't think she's going to go evil, when right in the same fucking quote he shows that he does. The question is if she's going to end the world right then and there, and he says maybe. He just isn't certain that that is the moment, not that he isn't certain that she needs to be killed.

The Dragonslayers are with him because they are of like mind. If they weren't, they would't be I he same fucking group.

 

[Atropa]

At no point was he obligated to show himself. At no point was bringing himself to Dragon's attention a good thing. Instead of being the silent, invisible watcher that he could have been, he went out and fucked it up.

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Although I don't remember the specifics, let's also not forget he made a deal with teacher.
I don't dislike/hate Saint because he's eeeeviiillll, but because he's stupid and power hungry.

Saint has stolen tech. AFAIK he has committed no killing, raping, kidnapping, torturing, or human experimentation. Not even putting spiders on dozens of people that Taylor has done.

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Constantly monitoring Dragons mind and mindraping her at his leisure doesn't count ofc. since she is clearly non-human.
Saint is not literally the Saint you try to paint him as.

 

[Aleh]

That may be so, but she was still an absolute moron compared to the average human.

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Yes and no. She lacked what we'd call "creativity" and didn't form abstractions in the same way we do. That's not the same thing as "being an absolute moron". Hell, even Zion's capacity for information processing is far in excess of the combined information-processing ability of the entire human race.

 

[HypoSoc]

Wasn't Saint also mastered by Teacher? How much of his flaws are natural?

 

[Dreadis]

Ooh hey I didn't know QQ had a worm morality thread.

 

[Guile]

Wasn't Saint also mastered by Teacher? How much of his flaws are natural?

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No way of knowing.

Personally, I don't hate Saint as much as many others in the fandom do, but I suspect he's the victim of Wildbow coming up with a cool idea in the eleventh hour. He'd have been overall more sympathetic if he hadn't been using the tech stolen from Dragon to hire himself out as a mercenary team to villains. It's like if we found out at the end of the story that Uber and Leet were actually pretty good guys, and all those hookers they beat up with baseball bats were actually terrible people who deserved it.

Also, Dragon likening Saint's predations of her to rape in her interlude didn't help his case.