Make a Contract With Me! [Lag Backup Thread]

[Pipeman]

Sweet christ, what is it with SB and playing the hero for strangers? There is no need for a clever plan to lich Tetsu out. Just sit there and let him do his thing. The girl is associating with the Yakuza and only voiced saw fit to complain when he walked in with blood on his hands. She "understands the need for sacrifices," and is hardly as pure as the driven snow. Tetsu's worst enemy is himself; let him self destruct and sink into depression, then mop up. As his mental state slips, there'll be other opportunities.

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While I'm not saying we should definitely try to rescue her (I'm kind of undecided on what to do which is probably why I didn't post as much as normally), I do feel obligated to point out that she was talking to a rather paranoid and murderous Combat Monster that could snap her like a twig (and is currently doing exactly that).
She may have gotten into this relationship with far less knowledge about the situation, some ridiculous thoughts about changing him and his ways, or through some other set of circumstances that would make her appear a lot more sympathetic (Maybe family pressure? People with stable backgrounds rarely have much Magical Girl Potential) and was looking for a way to get out of it without being murdered since day one. (Maybe the entire 'not letting him have sex with her' thing was even some scheme to make him be the one to end the relationship.)

That said, all of this is of course only speculation, but while I'd agree the fact that she had to know she'd be going out with a yak makes her somewhat more unsympathetic, it in my opinion definitely doesn't put her into "she deserves this" territory.
At worst she gets a "I'd like to help you, but I really need to be sure I can take him and, to be fair, you did know he was a criminal" but as I said, I'm still undecided.

Long story short: If we're going to let her die, we should at least be doing so regretfully.

 

[Alectai]

Given that we probably continued to observe him just without the rifle's scope, I think it's rather likely that we know his Danger Sense only tingles if we point our rifle at him.
From ther on it's not very hard to conclude that it's a Danger Sense and while more detailed information on how exactly it works would be useful it's prabably both very risky and hard to acquire, since the only feedback we get is, whether or not Tetsu reacts to us.
Given these difficulties with acquiring more data on it, it's probably just for the best to conclude that we're likely not going to catch him off guard and therefor don't have our plans depend on it.

As for shooting at Tetsu and running, I don't think you appreciate just how fast Tetsu is.
He's going to be at the building we're shooting from in ten seconds at the very most, if he takes some time getting in and out of the buildings and takes a route with some cover, instead of just crashing through the walls Kool-Aid Man style and moving in a straight line.
And once he arrives, he has super hearing and knows how we look.
We're definitely not going to be getting away in time.

And even if we miraculously managed to do so, we'd be giving up a lot of advantages.
Sure, we're unlikely to be able to catch him off guard thanks to that bullshit Danger Sense, but at least he's not going to prepared for us and we can be reasonably sure to be the ones initiating the battle.
Those advantages goes right out through the window, once he knows we are in the city and are still gunning for him and as if this weren't enough he'll know what kind of range we have on our weapon and how strong our shots are as well.

If we're going to do anything at all right now, we sure as hell should make sure we finish the job, because while it's debatable how much better a situation we could get him into, if we waited, alerting him to our presence will practically destroy any hopes of the second engagement not being under much worse conditions.

On a somewhat more unrelated note, for how long have we been back in Tokyo now?
Did we at least manage to observe things a couple of days without tingling his danger senses or seeing him about to murder his girlfriend?

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Point of order? His danger sense was triggering off of the guys he was "Inspecting" too, that's why he executed two of them.

Hostile Intent seems to be all that matters, whether a weapon is actually held or not seems to be irrelevant. And by word of Rihaku, he was eventually going to inspect us personally if we got on his nerves for too long. Because he knows we're there, he just doesn't know it's Us, and he hasn't bothered to look in on it personally because he had bigger fish to fry. Eventually, we're going to get on his List, and then we don't even have the advantage of initiating the conflict--if he's as good as you say he is, it's as simple as him going "Fuck this" and zweeing over to us to figure out what the fuck is going on. Since he hasn't done this yet, it's likely that he just doesn't care enough to look in on the "Potential" threat that's "Far Away" right now, when he's still cleaning house.

So the longer we wait, the more likely it is that he initiates the fight--and by your definition, the instant a fight starts, he teleports to us and kills us instantly, because we're too dumb to counter a speedblitz in a straight line, and too terrible at sneaking to simply leave the sniper's nest after taking our first shot if he doesn't.

 

[Malcolmo]

I don't think taking the shot is a good idea. We're unlikely to manage to get him in the first few rounds, he will close in on us very quickly and most likely before we can relocate safely, we cannot use impactors indiscriminately due to collateral damage and need not to reveal magic crippling our capabilities badly. If we shoot then vanish he will likely take out his frustrations on the girl blaming her for what happened and killing her painfully rendering the whole thing a waste of time and of our element of surprise (referring to the fact he does not know who and what's after him rather then not knowing someone's after him). Also we do not know what his derived magic is a dangerous flaw in our knowledge that could cause this attempt to end in disaster.

We should initiate this fight on our terms and on prepared ground where we can go all out without worrying about the collateral damage and hopefully having obtained more information.

As is the current plan is going to throw away our element of surprise, is hoping we somehow manage to put him down without an important tool of ours, risks death for very little reason and puts us at a disadvantage in the upcoming fight. Solely so people can have the dubious joy of playing the hero or due to knee jerk reactions and even then people are suggesting we shoot her instead to give her a quick death loosing our surprise for even less gain then the other plan which at least has the benefit of us trying to take out Tetsu.

 

[Alectai]

I don't think taking the shot is a good idea. We're unlikely to manage to get him in the first few rounds, he will close in on us very quickly and most likely before we can relocate safely, we cannot use impactors indiscriminately due to collateral damage and need not to reveal magic crippling our capabilities badly. If we shoot then vanish he will likely take out his frustrations on the girl blaming her for what happened and killing her painfully rendering the whole thing a waste of time and of our element of surprise (referring to the fact he does not know who and what's after him rather then not knowing someone's after him). Also we do not know what his derived magic is a dangerous flaw in our knowledge that could cause this attempt to end in disaster.

We should initiate this fight on our terms and on prepared ground where we can go all out without worrying about the collateral damage and hopefully having obtained more information.

As is the current plan is going to throw away our element of surprise, is hoping we somehow manage to put him down without an important tool of ours, risks death for very little reason and puts us at a disadvantage in the upcoming fight. Solely so people can have the dubious joy of playing the hero or due to knee jerk reactions and even then people are suggesting we shoot her instead to give her a quick death loosing our surprise for even less gain then the other plan which at least has the benefit of us trying to take out Tetsu.

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Again, We are initiating the fight, it's on as Close to our terms as we're ever going to get against a guy with perfect, mind-and-future reading danger sense.

The longer we wait, the higher the chance of him just going "Fuck it" and doing exactly what you say he can trivially do, and then we don't even have the advantage of at least getting one or two shots off first, or enough warning to have a counter for the speedblitz.

On top of that... You're assuming that he'll just shrug off the challenge to his authority and be hyper-optimal, when he's explicitly Not been doing that--someone defying his authority throws him into a Murderous Rage, not convinces him to back down at work discreetly.

 

[Pipeman]

Point of order? His danger sense was triggering off of the guys he was "Inspecting" too, that's why he executed two of them.

Hostile Intent seems to be all that matters, whether a weapon is actually held or not seems to be irrelevant.

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First of all, I was mainly speaking about what Hitori could tell and, secondly, that's not what it does.
He pretty much directly says this isn't what it does.
Rihaku even repeated so.
What matters isn't 'intent' of any sort but whether or not the thing in question poses immediate enough danger to him.
So while a guy with a sniper rifle that could hit him at this distance certainly triggers it, the same guy without his weapon and only the intent to kill him later presumably wouldn't trigger anything at this kind of distance.

 

[Crypsis]

As for shooting at Tetsu and running, I don't think you appreciate just how fast Tetsu is.
He's going to be at the building we're shooting from in ten seconds at the very most, if he takes some time getting in and out of the buildings and takes a route with some cover, instead of just crashing through the walls Kool-Aid Man style and moving in a straight line.
And once he arrives, he has super hearing and knows how we look.
We're definitely not going to be getting away in time.

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Well, his ability to speedblitz might be more limited than it sounds. Running into a brick wall at 700mph will be like being hit with a kilo of high explosives. Keeping his legs from flying apart or catching fire will be a constant struggle. He'll be acting much faster than he can respond to stimuli, so he'll be practically blind. I'm not saying he's likely to accidentally rip himself apart, but how cautious he has to be depends strongly on what factors he can 'lol, magic' away.

 

[Deadly Snark]

I'll repeat that getting a Optimal shot that's somehow better than a guy blinded by sheer rage is next to impossible with a guy with super spider sense. Taking the shot now while he's stressed, not thinking clearly and not even paying attention to his danger sense is pretty much the best case we could hope for.

Not shooting him because we're hoping for a better situation is pretty wasting the best situation that we're likely going to get

IN fact, can anyone tell me what kind of situation would make for a better shot than the one we have right now? Give me an concrete example.

 

[Alectai]

First of all, I was mainly speaking about what Hitori could tell and, secondly, that's not what it does.
He pretty much directly says this isn't what it does.
Rihaku even repeated so.
What matters isn't 'intent' of any sort but whether or not the thing in question poses immediate enough danger to him.
So while a guy with a sniper rifle that could hit him at this distance certainly triggers it, the same guy without his weapon and only the intent to kill him later presumably wouldn't trigger anything at this kind of distance.

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So those were just random killings he did to keep them in line? And his Danger sense is bullshit, but only in how it only works to deflect the PC. Because he Directly Laments that he couldn't detect non-physical intent to harm him, and earlier, mentions killing his driver for having hostile thoughts towards him.

Not actions, thoughts.

So he's either completely delusional and imagines his Danger Sense to justify his actions, or it keys off of "Intent to cause harm in the future" as much as "Actual serious danger to me" One is an irritating superpower, but one that has limitations (Because it can be ignored sometimes), the other is blatant plot-armor.

 

[Alectai]

Well, his ability to speedblitz might be more limited than it sounds. Running into a brick wall at 700mph will be like being hit with a kilo of high explosives. Keeping his legs from flying apart or catching fire will be a constant struggle. He'll be acting much faster than he can respond to stimuli, so he'll be practically blind. I'm not saying he's likely to accidentally rip himself apart, but how cautious he has to be depends strongly on what factors he can 'lol, magic' away.

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There's an explicit limitation on Speedblitzing built into the system--any movement faster then twice-human speed requires you to decide where you're going before you start moving--and if you abort before completing the movement, then you take a nasty pile of recoil damage from wrenching yourself out of the "Tunnel" you've created.

So hyper-speed is dangerous, but an actual "Hypersonic speedblitz" is only good for straight-lines in unfamiliar territory, and limited movements in close-quarters.

 

[Pipeman]

So the longer we wait, the more likely it is that he initiates the fight--and by your definition, the instant a fight starts, he teleports to us and kills us instantly, because we're too dumb to counter a speedblitz in a straight line, and too terrible at sneaking to simply leave the sniper's nest after taking our first shot if he doesn't.

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That wasn't really what I was talking about.
Firstly, I was talking about the proposed situation of us taking a single shot at him right now, while in a scy scraper we cannot easily leave though anything but the few exits it has, and then turning to run instead of actually continuing to shoot him.

And I never said we lose the instant a fight starts.
We would however lose the instance a fight he initiates starts.
The difference betwen the two is that the fight wouldn't start with him at the edge of our range and we wouldn't even know he's coming to kill us, which, I think we can all agree, would end badly for us.

TL;DR:
I wasn't saying that trying to fight now is a bad idea, but that the proposed variant by Berserkslash of shooting once and turing to run was utter crap.

 

[Aloysius]

On the wait vote.

Personally I would like to ask : what element of surprise ?
After this, once he's gotten rid of Hino, he won't forget about the sudden burst of intense threat he felt, especially after the recurring occurrence of such feelings of danger in the day-he will hunts down the source actively, us. Something he already intended to work on, remember that he want to sent Yakuza on our trail, he's likely to step up this effort after having sensed us so close to strike.
So even if we chose to wait for now, we certainly won't have the benefit of surprise.

 

[Alectai]

That wasn't really what I was talking about.
Firstly, I was talking about the proposed situation of us taking a single shot at him right now, while in a scy scraper we cannot easily leave though anything but the few exits it has, and then turning to run instead of actually continuing to shoot him.

And I never said we lose the instant a fight starts.
We would however lose the instance a fight he initiates starts.
The difference betwen the two is that the fight wouldn't start with him at the edge of our range and we wouldn't even know he's coming to kill us, which, I think we can all agree, would end badly for us.

TL;DR:
I wasn't saying that trying to fight now is a bad idea, but that the proposed variant of shooting once and turing to run was utter crap.

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I never said it was a good idea, I said it was a backup plan if we fail to disable him with our first shot--and if he manages to somehow dodge a "Point-blank Impactor" that we shoot at ourselves after using our newtype-prediction Scope to predict when he starts the speedblitz.

If he's still stronger then us by then, then you're damn right we need to try to withdraw. Because if he tanks a Shieldbreaker, and then an Impactor, and is still stronger then us after that and we can't finish him with a Silver Bullet, then beating him was never an option.

 

[Malcolmo]

Again, We are initiating the fight, it's on as Close to our terms as we're ever going to get against a guy with perfect, mind-and-future reading danger sense.

The longer we wait, the higher the chance of him just going "Fuck it" and doing exactly what you say he can trivially do, and then we don't even have the advantage of at least getting one or two shots off first, or enough warning to have a counter for the speedblitz.

On top of that... You're assuming that he'll just shrug off the challenge to his authority and be hyper-optimal, when he's explicitly Not been doing that--someone defying his authority throws him into a Murderous Rage, not convinces him to back down at work discreetly.

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An area where there are less civilians and we can be a lot freerer with our impactors would be a heck of a lot better and after having gotten some more info on his derived magic which if powerful enough could wreck our attempts at attacking.

In addition he is extremely unlikely to charge at us while going at top speed in the manner you think he will. For one thing it would expose magic to everyone involved for what he currently does not know is a good reason to do so and would make himself look foolish to his subordinates something which would weaken his authority. He is far more likely to send some men to investigate and maybe later go himself in his magician costume.

As to the last part I am uncertain as to precisely what you mean by that last part. If you are referring to his danger sense pointing us out and him being enraged he is also likely to get out of said murderous rage after he kills the girl or at least some time afterward and he thus far has no idea that we are anything more then another traitor he can kill off or have killed in some time.

 

[Orm Embar]

IN fact, can anyone tell me what kind of situation would make for a better shot than the one we have right now? Give me an concrete example.

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Sure: Tetsu in a public area where transforming would have serious social repercussions for him. It would mean he can't benefit from the physical enhancements without excusing himself, and would give us a chance to use Silver Bullet right at the start.

 

[Pipeman]

I never said it was a good idea, I said it was a backup plan if we fail to disable him with our first shot--and if he manages to somehow dodge a "Point-blank Impactor" that we shoot at ourselves after using our newtype-prediction Scope to predict when he starts the speedblitz.

If he's still stronger then us by then, then you're damn right we need to try to withdraw. Because if he tanks a Shieldbreaker, and then an Impactor, and is still stronger then us after that and we can't finish him with a Silver Bullet, then beating him was never an option.

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I think we're kind of talking past each other a bit.
All I'm saying is that, if we decide to anything right now, we better damn well stick to it and do our best to kill him in this very engagement, because not only would any second engagement have the scales horribly tipped against us unless we mange to hit him with a silver bullet or to, but more so because we are very unlikely to get away from an engagement with Tetsu unless he's dead.

 

[Alectai]

Sure: Tetsu in a public area where transforming would have serious social repercussions for him. It would mean he can't benefit from the physical enhancements without excusing himself, and would give us a chance to use Silver Bullet right at the start.

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Problem, he doesn't go into public places aside from school, and his Danger Sense is always on. He's not going to just stand and die because he doesn't want to show his trump card in public.

And when he Is at school, he surrounds himself with civilians. He's Actively taking anti-sniper measures in his daily lifestyle, because he acknowledges that we Might, at some point, come back for revenge.

An area where there are less civilians and we can be a lot freerer with our impactors would be a heck of a lot better and after having gotten some more info on his derived magic which if powerful enough could wreck our attempts at attacking.

In addition he is extremely unlikely to charge at us while going at top speed in the manner you think he will. For one thing it would expose magic to everyone involved for what he currently does not know is a good reason to do so and would make himself look foolish to his subordinates something which would weaken his authority. He is far more likely to send some men to investigate and maybe later go himself in his magician costume.

As to the last part I am uncertain as to precisely what you mean by that last part. If you are referring to his danger sense pointing us out and him being enraged he is also likely to get out of said murderous rage after he kills the girl or at least some time afterward and he thus far has no idea that we are anything more then another traitor he can kill off or have killed in some time.

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So, basically right here?

Because there's no possible way he's going to leave his place of power to a place where he's not in his power.

And if he Doesn't charge right at us, he's probably going to lose us--the period of time it would take for him to reach us "Quietly", is time we can spend Not being there anymore

Plus, he explicitly has a ridiculously brutal temper, and poor impulse control. I'd be more surprised if he retains the presence of mind to quietly go downstairs and gradually approach us after nearly being killed. Doubly so if we manage to injure him with our shot (Which is likely)

 

[Deadly Snark]

Sure: Tetsu in a public area where transforming would have serious social repercussions for him. It would mean he can't benefit from the physical enhancements without excusing himself, and would give us a chance to use Silver Bullet right at the start.

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You really think that Tetsu has we have seen him now, and he will undoudbtly become worse in the future, would give a fuck about transforming in the public if it meant the difference between life and dead?

We've seen that this guy while smart, doesn't really think things through and is rather impulsive, which has gotten even worse with his spider sense.

Not only that, you're somehow proposing that Hitori would somehow do something completely unlike himself and start a major battle in the middle of a public area where a lot of innocents would be caught and would be in danger.

In short : Lol, no.

 

[Aloysius]

Sure: Tetsu in a public area where transforming would have serious social repercussions for him. It would mean he can't benefit from the physical enhancements without excusing himself, and would give us a chance to use Silver Bullet right at the start.

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So, the same situation we had in this update in the Dojo where we opted to not take action ? Or right when he entered his limo ?
Hitori won't attack where bystanders are close enough to be taken in the crossfire...except if someone is already endangered like the girl.

 

[Orm Embar]

Ok, so shoot him in the school. No armor, no bulletproof glass, so Silver Bullets are an option. He has to come to us if he wants to retaliate. Collateral damage is only really a concern with impactors.

 

[Alectai]

Above all else, remember one thing.

Tetsu is still thinking like a human

One with great power, but still a human. This means he's liable to suffer shock from being injured--especially if it's not something that happens often to him. None of his Wish at this time makes him a "Good Magician". He might become that given time, if his goal shifts from "Be a crime boss" to "Be a Great Magician", but right now, he's not. He'll never be more vulnerable then he is now.

 

[Deadly Snark]

Ok, so shoot him in the school. No armor, no bulletproof glass, so Silver Bullets are an option. He has to come to us if he wants to retaliate.

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Public area. Bystanders. Innocents in the vicinity.

Next.

 

[Orm Embar]

Public area. Bystanders. Innocents in the vicinity.

Next.

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We can aim, yes? I'm hardly suggesting impactor spam.

 

[Malcolmo]

Sure: Tetsu in a public area where transforming would have serious social repercussions for him. It would mean he can't benefit from the physical enhancements without excusing himself, and would give us a chance to use Silver Bullet right at the start.

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I'd rather start this fight in area without civilians since we could use impactors in such a situation and because a kid somehow dieing to what seems like an anti tank weapon hit would cause questions to be asked. In addition he keeps his costume on at all times so there's not much chance of that working quite as well.

Personally I would like to ask : what element of surprise ?

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The fact he does not know we're more dangerous then the average Yakuza traitor is a surprise that and the fact he is not aware of our capabilities.

I'll repeat that getting a Optimal shot that's somehow better than a guy blinded by sheer rage is next to impossible with a guy with super spider sense. Taking the shot now while he's stressed, not thinking clearly and not even paying attention to his danger sense is pretty much the best case we could hope for.

Not shooting him because we're hoping for a better situation is pretty wasting the best situation that we're likely going to get

IN fact, can anyone tell me what kind of situation would make for a better shot than the one we have right now? Give me an concrete example.

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When his soul gem has darkened due to the stress and despair of killing his girlfriend and there are less civilians in the area so we can be freer with our impactor shots in addition to this the fact we could gather more info as to his capabilities in terms of derived magic and what the trait referred to by question marks is.

 

[Alectai]

Ok, so shoot him in the school. No armor, no bulletproof glass, so Silver Bullets are an option. He has to come to us if he wants to retaliate. Collateral damage is only really a concern with impactors.

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Tetsu is paying Very close attention to his Danger Sense when he's not transformed and he's at school. While he gets a bit sloppier when he's in uniform. When he was unarmed and we had him in our sights, he was watching to make sure the danger was "Far away". To the point of zoning out. When he was transformed, all he did was look in the direction, and didn't really break stride very much.

 

[Alectai]

I'd rather start this fight in area without civilians since we could use impactors in such a situation and because a kid somehow dieing to what seems like an anti tank weapon hit would cause questions to be asked. In addition he keeps his costume on at all times so there's not much chance of that working quite as well.The fact he does not know we're more dangerous then the average Yakuza traitor is a surprise that and the fact he is not aware of our capabilities.When his soul gem has darkened due to the stress and despair of killing his girlfriend and there are less civilians in the area so we can be freer with our impactor shots in addition to this the fact we could gather more info as to his capabilities in terms of derived magic and what the trait referred to by question marks is.

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You assume that his Soul Gem will darken any meaningful amount. We were a hell of a lot lower then he was when we started, and our mindset was still fairly stable.

He's already shown that he doesn't fucking tolerate challenges, and slates them as "Enemies", and he has no qualms with killing them. Right now, he's trying to justify her as one, and will kill her the moment he's succeeded at doing so.

 

[Deadly Snark]

We can aim, yes? I'm hardly suggesting impactor spam.

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So you're suggesting we put innocent people in danger and throw away our first strike advantage just so that we'll do an attack that's sure to miss and even if it does hit wouldn't do nearly as much damage as it would need to do in order to justify getting the innocents in danger?

I'll pass.

 

[Pipeman]

By the way, I managed to dig out Rihaku's quote about the danger sense:

It doesn't operate off killing intent, it operates off actual physical danger to himself, and is sensitive enough to detect even serious plans that portend physical harm.

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[Alectai]

I mean, I don't mind people getting cold feet. But actually suggesting we might get a better shot then this? The other guy blinded with rage, not paying attention to the danger that's pointed at him (He Explicitly shoved it to the back of his mind in favor of showing his "Girlfriend" who's boss). When Hitori apparently thought the school wasn't a clean enough shot?

You're all assuming that Tetsu is a perfectly rational actor who knows he'll always win, so he can take his time to make sure to keep an eye on his image. His biggest problem is that he Doesn't give a shit what people think of him, because he'll just fucking kill you if you even mildly inconvienence him.

 

[Aloysius]

The fact he does not know we're more dangerous then the average Yakuza traitor is a surprise that and the fact he is not aware of our capabilities.

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The same advantages we already benefit from now ? That's why we should wait to attack later, when he has time to realize that if the yakuzas he sent to ferret us out don't manages to find us it's because we're not a bog standard traitor ?

 

[Malcolmo]

So, basically right here?

Because there's no possible way he's going to leave his place of power to a place where he's not in his power.

And if he Doesn't charge right at us, he's probably going to lose us--the period of time it would take for him to reach us "Quietly", is time we can spend Not being there anymore

Plus, he explicitly has a ridiculously brutal temper, and poor impulse control. I'd be more surprised if he retains the presence of mind to quietly go downstairs and gradually approach us after nearly being killed. Doubly so if we manage to injure him with our shot (Which is likely)

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Sure there is he's probably going to have to go to that suicide forest in order to hunt witches eventually particularly if we make him more desperate to start hunting and replenishing his soul gem via causing problems for him.

He doesn't know that though and my point was that we can afford to keep reconning him without worrying about him up and charging at us at random, not that he wasn't going to do so during a fight. Which was why I didn't want us to intervene right now.

Which is why I'm not relying on him doing that in a fight but am relying on it for while we're doing our reconnaissance.

I'm beginning to think we're arguing around one another at the moment.