Rule 9 - On the topic of words

tehelgee · Dec 17, 2020

Is a word good or bad? Is it inherently political or not? We get plenty of reports arguing that they are.

We say context matters. If the word is meant to demean a real life person or group of people, it's usage is against the rules. If it is not, it is permitted. For example, calling Astolfo a trap is not against the rules. Calling a real life person a trap is against the rules, Rule 1 specifically.

Nothing about our decisions have changed with this rule, it is not an change in direction. Rule 9's purpose is to codify our policy as we've been applying it.

Guardian Box · Dec 18, 2020

tehelgee said:
Calling a real life person a trap is against the rules, Rule 1 specifically.

I'm assuming this doesn't apply if the person in question calls themselves a trap in the first place.

Megaolix · Dec 18, 2020

Guardian Box said:
I'm assuming this doesn't apply if the person in question calls themselves a trap in the first place.

Like stated, context matter. If they call themselves that, why would we have an issue with it?

Guardian Box · Dec 18, 2020

Megaolix said:
Like stated, context matter. If they call themselves that, why would we have an issue with it?

Just wanted to have this preemptively and officially qualified. After all, there are plenty of people, from cosplayers to porn actors, who call themselves traps with fondness or even pride.

Megaolix · Dec 18, 2020

Guardian Box said:
Just wanted to have this preemptively and officially qualified. After all, there are plenty of people, from cosplayers to porn actors, who call themselves traps with fondness or even pride.

Perhaps, but we don't much cosplayers and 0 porn actors on QQ last I checked.

TriedgeThePK · Dec 18, 2020

Megaolix said:
Perhaps, but we don't much cosplayers and 0 porn actors on QQ last I checked.

That you know of...

Guardian Box · Dec 18, 2020

Megaolix said:
Perhaps, but we don't much cosplayers and 0 porn actors on QQ last I checked.

We do sometimes talk about them though, and I'll have you know I look gorgeous with cat ears on, thank you very much.

xyzinc · Dec 18, 2020

To celebrate the clarification I'm going to crank it hard to cute traps in slutty clothes

Otokonoko Culture · Dec 18, 2020

Megaolix said:
Perhaps, but we don't much cosplayers and 0 porn actors on QQ last I checked.

I say hello to you every day on irc.

Guardian Box · Dec 18, 2020

Otokonoko Culture said:
I say hello to you every day on irc.

name checks out

Radiant Knight · Dec 18, 2020

This is definitely relevant to my interests, and I appreciate the application of context to determine word usage issues, unlike certain other forums and their blanket bans. Ofc I say that as someone who hangs out on a porn disco dedicated to people who call themselves that.

Feltiony · Dec 18, 2020

tehelgee said:
Is a word good or bad?
.

So now common sense does not apply as long as some sjw attack helicopter feels offended about any of 170000 words? "It's not what you said, it's how you said it!11"
Long awaited change, I'd say. Also please stay away from bigoted language like "real life person", excluding a lot of us from conversation - not all of us identify as a real life person, you know. Educate yourself about updated Rule 9 and fix it immediately, or you'll be reported.

Doomsought · Dec 18, 2020

Don't give that type of person an inch. They are just oppression Chunibyos. They don't care about context or even reality, they just want to make themselves feel like a heroic underdog by censoring people for imaginary oppression. Just tell them to stop kink shaming otakus every time they make a report, and eventually they will take their sock puppets and leave.

Facepalmist · Dec 18, 2020

Feltiony said:
Also please stay away from bigoted language like "real life person", excluding a lot of us from conversation - not all of us identify as a real life person, you know.

'Hypothetical' Admin in reply said:
For the record, are you a real life person? Be aware that your continued existence on this forum hinges on you giving us the correct answer.

There's a certain adage about playing stupid games that applies here...

Guardian Box said:
I'm assuming this doesn't apply if the person in question calls themselves a trap in the first place.

I see what you're trying here.

Pursuant to this, I'd suggest a rider in the rule somewhere, advising that those self-identifying as traps [or X other term] - and more specifically, those who wish to grant general permission for other users to call them traps [or X other term] - should make this clear somewhere in their personals. Say, tagline ("Verified Trap"), signature, pronouns (once XF2 happens) - basically, something to save the staff's time in checking that the user allows it.

RichardWhereat · Dec 18, 2020

Megaolix said:
Perhaps, but we don't much cosplayers and 0 porn actors on QQ last I checked.

Well, I'm not a porn star, but I have acted in one. So you have at least 1.

dalmedya · Dec 18, 2020

tehelgee said:
Calling a real life person a trap is against the rules, Rule 1 specifically.

I don't see this ever affecting me personally, but I still strongly disagree with it.

ANGRY PUFFBALL · Dec 18, 2020

Mabye don't start going down the same road as SV and Resetera? We already have Rule 1 for if someone's being a dick to someone specifically.

Otokonoko Culture · Dec 18, 2020

ANGRY PUFFBALL said:
Mabye don't start going down the same road as SV and Resetera? We already have Rule 1 for if someone's being a dick to someone specifically.

In a general instance, there have been numerous occasions where someone comes in and starts going "TRAP IS A SLUR" and trying to force things. The staff have, pretty consistently, been saying "We don't care if you think it's a slur. It's just a word and using it isn't in and of itself against the rules." leading to much REE.

This is codifying that statement.

If I were to call someone a slutty nigger faggot or something, that'd be rule 1. But just saying slutty nigger faggot isn't in and of itself an offense of any sort, and rule 9 is codifying that "no, that's not an offense"

Unless I've completely misread things, in which case i will be upset.

Firedon · Dec 18, 2020

ANGRY PUFFBALL said:
Mabye don't start going down the same road as SV and Resetera? We already have Rule 1 for if someone's being a dick to someone specifically.

Which is why the op states that it'd be specifically against Rule 1? This doesn't change any rules, it just makes it clearer.

Psyckosama · Dec 18, 2020

I'd be careful. Rules tend to have a tendency to snowball well beyond their original intent.

You might want to institute a "reasonable person" standard.

tehelgee · Dec 18, 2020

Otokonoko Culture said:
In a general instance, there have been numerous occasions where someone comes in and starts going "TRAP IS A SLUR" and trying to force things. The staff have, pretty consistently, been saying "We don't care if you think it's a slur. It's just a word and using it isn't in and of itself against the rules." leading to much REE.

This is codifying that statement.

If I were to call someone a slutty nigger faggot or something, that'd be rule 1. But just saying slutty nigger faggot isn't in and of itself an offense of any sort, and rule 9 is codifying that "no, that's not an offense"

Unless I've completely misread things, in which case i will be upset.

No, you've pretty well got it down. But we wouldn't shield you from people disliking you for saying it, either, if you were the type to spray it all over everything.

Psyckosama said:
I'd be careful. Rules tend to have a tendency to snowball well beyond their original intent.

You might want to institute a "reasonable person" standard.

We have, us. Rule 9 is also, essentially, telling posters to not preach at us about what the bad words are, we'll make that decision ourselves.

Psyckosama · Dec 18, 2020

tehelgee said:
We have, us. Rule 9 is also, essentially, telling posters to not preach at us about what the bad words are, we'll make that decision ourselves.

I'd strongly suggest attaching that very statement to the rule as clarification because rules tend to snowball over time.

I apologize for the Paranoia but I've seen growing scope on rules beyond the originally intended use ruin forums before.

rance47 · Dec 18, 2020

tehelgee said:
Calling a real life person a trap is against the rules, Rule 1 specifically.

Wait, maybe its just me being a boomer, but how does a "trap" counts as a swear word in the first place?!
The word originates from the fact that you found another person so atractive and sexy, that you decided to hit on her/him, only to discover that he/she is not a gender that you assumed in the first place. Hence, "you got caught being gay" and "lols". If anything, trap is suppose to be a compliment to the people who actually crossdress that convincingly and are good looking enough to pull it off.

Guardian Box · Dec 18, 2020

rance47 said:
Wait, maybe its just me being a boomer, but how does a "trap" counts as a swear word in the first place?!
The word originates from the fact that you found another person so atractive and sexy, that you decided to hit on her/him, only to discover that he/she is not a gender that you assumed in the first place. Hence, "you got caught being gay" and "lols". If anything, trap is suppose to be a compliment to the people who actually crossdress that convincingly and are good looking enough to pull it off.

I don't understand why crazy neurotic busybodies do the things they do either.

Psyckosama · Dec 18, 2020

Guardian Box said:
I don't understand why crazy neurotic busybodies do the things they do either.

It's pure virtue signaling. I'd get into details but that would basically be inviting a Rule 8 violation.

Megaolix · Dec 18, 2020

Psyckosama said:
I'd strongly suggest attaching that very statement to the rule as clarification because rules tend to snowball over time.

It's already there however?

What is and is not a slur will be decided by QQ staff, not the posters. If you feel something should be a slur and we do not: tough.

Doomsought · Dec 18, 2020

Guardian Box said:
I don't understand why crazy neurotic busybodies do the things they do either.

It comes down to how the activist types view sexuality philosophically.

To the culture of QQ, sexuality is a source of entertainment. To the activist, your sexuality is the definition of whom you are and nothing else is as important. When they say dismissing their fetish is erasing them as a person, they actually believe it.

When your fetish stops being a kink and starts being a lifestyle, then you probably have a psychological problem and need help getting your priorities in order.

MissileTeatime · Dec 18, 2020

Psyckosama said:
I'd get into details but that would basically be inviting a Rule 8 violation.

Hell, I'll fall on that sword.

rance47 said:
Wait, maybe its just me being a boomer, but how does a "trap" counts as a swear word in the first place?!
The word originates from the fact that you found another person so atractive and sexy, that you decided to hit on her/him, only to discover that he/she is not a gender that you assumed in the first place. Hence, "you got caught being gay" and "lols". If anything, trap is suppose to be a compliment to the people who actually crossdress that convincingly and are good looking enough to pull it off.

If your reaction to "you look hot, but you're not the gender/don't have the genitals I thought" is "lols" then great!

In meatspace, not everyone reacts that well. The people who would use "trap" as a derogatory are also often the kind of people who would seriously injure or kill gay or trans people just for being gay/trans. These are also the type of people who would claim that traps "dress like that specifically to trap Good People Like Me into having sex with them". A form of the "trans panic" defense of murder, basically.

Some people (many trans people?) believe that any use of "trap" applied to people normalizes that derogatory usage, and that therefore "trap" should never be applied to people in a way that even resembles that sense. I can kinda see their argument, but I can also see that any attempt to apply that argument to QQ is seven different shades of lost cause even before Rule 9 got written down. (QQ is not meatspace law enforcement, so this is small comfort to anyone who lives somewhere that law enforcement would buy that, but QQ would laugh at any attempt to use the "trying to trap me" argument.)

(I would describe that as a slur, not a swear, though. Important distinction if you're arguing about them.)

FeepingCreature · Dec 18, 2020

Doomsought said:
To the culture of QQ, sexuality is a source of entertainment. To the activist, your sexuality is the definition of whom you are and nothing else is as important. When they say dismissing their fetish is erasing them as a person, they actually believe it.

Okay, but that argues in favor of the acceptable uses of the term "trap" as proposed here? Since it's certainly a valid sexuality.

I think it's just a matter of cultural insularity. Trap aesthetic as an exploration of gender stereotypes tends to be common in anime and anime fandom, and certain activists simply don't have much contact with this cultural area. It's plausible that they genuinely have only encountered the term "trap" in a slurry way before. Of course, the kind and consistent reaction would be to listen to people telling you that it's not actually a slur in the way it was used, which is what the mods have done in this thread, but I think everyone knows that activists don't always live up to the standards they espouse.

edit: Frankly, trap aesthetic has done enormous amounts for popularizing trans acceptance and gay/bi acceptance in chan culture. (Raise your hand if you've seen this exchange: "Dude, she has a dick." "That makes it EVEN BETTER.")

Doomsought · Dec 18, 2020

FeepingCreature said:
edit: Frankly, trap aesthetic has done enormous amounts for popularizing trans acceptance and gay/bi acceptance in chan culture. (Raise your hand if you've seen this exchange: "Dude, she has a dick." "That makes it EVEN BETTER.")

I don't think activists are capable of understanding how humor and banter can be used as a normalizing agent. They have such a stick up their ass about their issues that whatever that are advocating for MUST BE SERIOUS BUSINESS AND ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD and so no fun is allowed. That is why activists often chase the people they claim to be advocating for out of their own communities.

Rule 9 - On the topic of words

The stern gaze of justice.

Theocratic Capitalist

Theocratic Capitalist

My arm is tired.

Theocratic Capitalist

Well worn.

{Unverified Trap} {Verified Cake}

Theocratic Capitalist

Phoenix Fire

-

Experienced.

Well, that happened...

Aia airëa Fëanáro.

(unspecified)

Furthermore,

{Unverified Trap} {Verified Cake}

Experienced.

Connoisseur.

The stern gaze of justice.

Connoisseur.

I trust you know where the happy button is?

Theocratic Capitalist

Connoisseur.

Experienced.

By the power of Vaporware!

Not too sore, are you?

Experienced.

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