Tandem the Spoony's Next Adventure [F/SN x CM(D&D)]

[Pipeman]

How is mass-murder of the entire school and raping your sister just to exert power on her not evil?

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but he's not that evil in DnD terms.

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It's kind of annoying when people don't actually read the stuff they're quoting.
DnD alignment is not a good way to determine morality.
It's a game mechanic.
I even said that Shinji probably deserves to die in my post.
I am not defending Shinji.
I am saying that the DnD definition of the word Evil in relation to the alignment mechanic does not apply to him.

Sakura is only "unstable" if we don't deal with her problems. And, regardless of what you want, some of us don't like ignoring main characters because they're a potential inconvinience....

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Look.
She has been raped by worms for ten years.
You can't just snap your fingers and make her problems go away.
That sort of thing requires serious effort over many years and won't just disappear even then.
And you know what's a horrible time to attempt to undo severe mental trauma?
Right in a fucking Grail War.
And the HF route maid it very clear that Sakura only flipped out that much because she suddenly had something to cling to.
Sakura doesn't become more stable by dealing with her issues.
She becomes worse until they are properly addressed and dealt with.
And, as the HF also showed, attempting it during the Grail War ups the body count dramatically.
Right now she's in a stable equilibrium.
She'll just have to soldier through for a couple of weeks more.

Even if Zouken does get bumped-off, that still doesn't leave Sakura in a great position. She's still been abused for eleven years, Shirou knows nothing of that and nor does Rin.

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All of which can be dealt with, once there aren't any demigods trying to kill us, Gods of Evil trying to destroy the world and Sakura can no longer become said God of Evil's meatpuppet.

 

[FurikoMaru]

Chaotic Neutral doesn't mean "selfish" (I hate the way Chaotic people are maligned as being selfish just because they don't follow arbitrary rules)

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I'd rather be called selfish than evil. Just sayin'.

 

[Pipeman]

I'd rather be called selfish than evil. Just sayin'.

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Well that and alignments usually contain more than one character archetype.

 

[Robotninja]

Chaotic Good is more likely to find a different target than school children even if they do use it, however.

 

[Cherry Lover]

Alright; let's do a little thought experiment. Three characters with the Chaotic Alignment are all in the same situation as Shinji; with Bloodfort Andromeda and Rider needing prana. They cannot provide it, and the only means of providing it is through the Bloodfort; which will kill hundreds. What does each alignment do?

My answer: They all go through with it; the Chaotic Good character understands that without Rider he cannot win the War, which means that someone evil may obtain it and use it to bring ruin to the world. It is a sacrifice that weighs heavy on his mind, but for the sake of the greater good; one might have to commit a lesser evil.

The Chaotic Evil character does it so that he may both maintain Rider, and so that he can watch the victims suffer; he seeks the Grail to grant his desires, which are fueled by his urge to watch the world burn. He lives for evil and chaos, and having hundreds die so that his goals may continue is a bonus.

The Chaotic Neutral character does it because he needs to maintain Rider, and he wants the grail. Unlike his Good counterpart, he does not regret the casualties, and unlike his Evil counterpart he does not enjoy it either. It is simply a cost he must pay to reach his 'goal', if one can call it that. This is where I feel Shinji falls into the best. He isn't like a villain who will do evil deeds to reach their goal, nor is he doing wrong deeds for a reason he believes is right. He has no greater motivation besides 'what I want'. An evil character, even Neutral Evil; will do something for a larger, overarching goal. This is what Shinji lacks; a greater goal to both justify or validate his actions besides 'because I want to'. Without one, he is merely neutral.

I refuse to budge on this; as of now Shinji Matou's alignment is Chaotic Neutral in this quest.

Edit: While I'm not going to change his alignment; I'm still willing to hear out your opinion, so at the very least it'll be heard. And so I may possibly incorporate elements of it into further characterization.

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Sorry, that is just plain not true. Evil is defined by the willingness to harm others without regret, not by having some evil goal to aim for (by that definition even Zouken wouldn't be evil). There are plenty of Evil characters that don't have an "overarching goal" aside from just doing whatever benefits them (again, Zouken counts).

Your definition of evil makes it a completely meaningless concept, because it ignores clearly evil acts. Further, it bears no relation to the actual D&D definition of evil. http://easydamus.com/neutralevil.html, for example. It clearly states that all being Evil implies is that you do not care about who you hurt and act in your own interests. It says nothing about having an over-riding goal, although that is not excluded.

I can't force you to change your alignment, but it is clearly and obviously wrong. A cursory look at anything explaining the D&D alignment system in any detail demonstrates that.

The problem is that you are defining "evil" as "enjoyment of suffering", which is untrue in both directions. Rider, for example, enjoys suffering, but she doesn't go out to harm people so she's not evil. Enjoyment of suffering is sadism, and sadism is neither evil nor a requirement for you to be evil. Many of the worst villains are just emotionless monsters who don't care about what suffering they cause, and by your definition they would not be evil.

If your definition is actually true then the alignment test is actually useless, because it excludes a large chunk of people who are clearly evil but don't come up as such. For example, someone who murders people for profit is not evil by your definition because they don't gain pleasure from it. And nor is basically every dictator ever, unless they're actually killing people for the fun of killing and not to retain power.

I imagine the disagreement over alignment stems from the differing definitions of evil.

"Evil is a good man doing nothing," or "to be immoral is to be evil." Both of these express an idea of what it means to be evil, and do so in an understandable way.

But that is not the definition of evil that the Nasu-verse runs on, nor is it how D&D defines it. To be identified as evil by a dungeons and dragons spell or ability, you have to be the type that seeks destruction for the sake of it, or who would cause suffering purely to enjoy the pain of others.

Doing 'bad things' to make yourself feel less wretched would qualify as evil under the first one, but not under the second. Since the alignment spell uses the second definition, it comes back as neutral.

This doesn't mean you can't say Shinji is a bastard who needs to die, it just means that this spell and system won't tell you so straight out.

Edit: I put the word evil before bastard in that last line. It undermined my point and probably added a lot of confusion.

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Erm, what? Since when does the D&D definition of Evil imply you have to cause suffering for the sake of suffering? That is Chaotic Evil, yes, but not Evil in general.

For example, someone like Xykon from Order of the Stick (that's the best reference I can find, sorry) doesn't perform evil acts for the sake of performing evil acts (at least not mostly), and nor does Elan's father. They do it because it benefits them.

Your definition of evil has no relationship to what is actually evil. Being sadistic does not make you evil, even if you act on that, what makes you evil is the lack of care or compassion for anyone else.

Also, what Shinji does counts as evil under both definitions. Raping someone or mass-murder is not merely an absense of good, it is in itself an immoral act by any definition of moral. He didn't have to abuse Sakura, he didn't do it to save his life, he did it because he wanted to. Draining the school is a bit more dubious, but even then it's not like he had to fight.

It's kind of annoying when people don't actually read the stuff they're quoting.
DnD alignment is not a good way to determine morality.
It's a game mechanic.
I even said that Shinji probably deserves to die in my post.
I am not defending Shinji.
I am saying that the DnD definition of the word Evil in relation to the alignment mechanic does not apply to him.

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The problem with that is that you're wrong. D&D explicitly defines the willingness to harm others without reservation for your own benefit evil, not neutral. Neutral means you won't actively harm people unless you have good reason, but also won't generally go out of your way to help people. You know, like most real people. People do often use Chaotic Neutral as an excuse to play evil characters when they're banned from doing so by the GM, but that is not what it means in the original definition.

Look.
She has been raped by worms for ten years.
You can't just snap your fingers and make her problems go away.
That sort of thing requires serious effort over many years and won't just disappear even then.
And you know what's a horrible time to attempt to undo severe mental trauma?
Right in a fucking Grail War.
And the HF route maid it very clear that Sakura only flipped out that much because she suddenly had something to cling to.
Sakura doesn't become more stable by dealing with her issues.
She becomes worse until they are properly addressed and dealt with.
And, as the HF also showed, attempting it during the Grail War ups the body count dramatically.
Right now she's in a stable equilibrium.
She'll just have to soldier through for a couple of weeks more.
All of which can be dealt with, once there aren't any demigods trying to kill us, Gods of Evil trying to destroy the world and Sakura can no longer become said God of Evil's meatpuppet.

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No, we can't just "snap our fingers" and make it go away, but that does not mean she will become more unstable. Without Angra Mainyu taking control of her she is not going to snap, she is just too damn strong for that.

Further, it won't get dealt with a a couple of weeks, because no-one will even know about it. And that is assuming Kotomine actually does deal with Zouken, which is not at all clear.

Well that and alignments usually contain more than one character archetype.

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Yes, but the way he's defining it it actually doesn't. He's defining it such that it only includes sadists....

 

[Vindictus]

.... GADDAMNIT

D&D PHILOSOPHY DEBATE

ABANDON THREAD

 

[Malcolmo]

Can we just avoid the whole alignment discussion and say that Dnd alignments are horribly simplistic systems which tend to be more trouble then their worth. Not to mention their tendency to have issues with more complicated characters.
Besides is this really worth that much fuss? It's not like the quest is going to insta bad end over the whole thing.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Philosophy debate nothing, it's another Sakura derail. Mike/Cherry was infamous for these back at Beast's Lair. Everything he weighs in on pushes it to be about Sakura. Plus, doesn't acknowledge any standard of morality save his own.

This another just-move-along moment. Trust me, nobody is going to convince anyone, it'll just be pages of spam, morality debates, and Sakura. That it combines this with alignment just means it's doubly doomed to fail. GM has spoken and closed the subject.



In light of that, I push for a new topic! What the hell is gonna happen with Assassin? I'm not even sure Medea is still around at this point, so we could have a new Caster and Assassin on our hands. Fun times! Any ideas, or anyone notice some interesting lines that may hint one way or another?

 

[Alexander]

Yes, I noticed something. Do you remember when Tandem saw Berserker fighting eldritch horrors? In the last post he commented about how someone on the Temple is capable of holding back Heracles. This means the fight occurred at the Temple.

I assumed they were Sakura's Shadow Giants, but now that I know another part of the crossover is Call of Cthulhu I think we have a different Caster (at least a Servant of some kind).

 

[FurikoMaru]

Personally, I'm hoping Assassin is the guy who stood motionless on the hood of a car all night.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Yes, I noticed something. Do you remember when Tandem saw Berserker fighting eldritch horrors? In the last post he commented about how someone on the Temple is capable of holding back Heracles. This means the fight occurred at the Temple.

I assumed they were Sakura's Shadow Giants, but now that I know another part of the crossover is Call of Cthulhu I think we have a different Caster (at least a Servant of some kind).

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That's what I thought too. Plus, it makes no sense for Sakura's stuff to be there without some serious shit going behind the scenes, before Tandem was even summoned.

I think Ender even said which Servant it is, their identity not their class, but I'm not sure he meant to. I don't know whether they're Assassin or Caster. Honestly....I can see either. Kojiro's an example of an Assassin that should be Saber, and Assassin that should be Caster isn't too far out there.

I hope it's Assassin and they're tied to that gate. But I doubt it. It's too easy. Still, it went more than toe to toe with Herk, so we know it'll be a cast iron bitch.

 

[Malcolmo]

Why do elderitch remind me of fate zero's caster? He did have a spell book capable of spawning infinite monsters.

 

[Fellgar]

Old Man Henderson is going to be one tough fight... possibly an awesome encounter though. Guy has more luck then we do. And almost as good bullshit in the form of retconning.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

*le sigh*

And I went to such lengths to avoid saying who it was out loud.

Whelp, hope Ender meant to give that Servant away. I know I wouldn't have.

 

[EnderofWorlds]

Alright, they wanna hear what you can bring to the table? You'll tell them what you bring to the fucking table alright, "What do we bring to the table? What do we bring to the table?! I am Tandem the Spoony, bitch! The Greatest Swordsman in the World, Adventurer Extraordinaire. I've slain dragons and giants, demons and liches; I have saved and sundered worlds and have lived to tell the tale. In two days I have fought against two Servants and arose triumphant; my foes left with a gouged out eye and a heartless corpse to show for it. I have battled against Herakles, in all of his terrible might and glory, and stand before you unscathed. I have discovered the identities of Masters who hide in plain sight, and had a rock-off against a man who transcended Legend."

"I also probably saved your's, Shriou's, and everyone's lives at the school by taking down whatever spell was over the building there. Who does that anyways? I mean, wouldn't it be better to put it at a prison, or any place with a lot of people nobody cares about. I mean; this is assuming the spell has to do with needing a lot of human lives and sacrifices, which it probably did all things considered. Eh, whatever; it's gone now, so who cares?"

You then finish off your speech with a flourish, "As for what I can do for you, well; how would you like to become a legend? I don't need or want the Grail, neither does Shirou; we just wanna live and protect the innocent here. So that wish? All yours. And as for what I can do right now? I can forge magical items of power, imbue you with the strength and agility of a dozen men, bestow upon you magic of great power, and-" It's here Shinji cuts you off.

"Wait, what was that last one?" Well excuse you, princess. Geeze, no appreciation for grand speeches in these parts apparently. Now what was that last bit again?

"Um, strength and agility of a dozen men?" Hmm, you don't think it was that...

"No, after that part." Ok...lesse; wish is yours, magic items, strength and speed, and...

"Oh, you mean the 'bestow magic to you' part?"

"YES! Yes! That part! More on that part," punk has a manic gleam to his eye now and it's starting to creep you out here..."What do you mean by 'bestow magic'?"

"I mean that I can teach you and Shirou a thing or two about my style of magic; here, might as well do a little demonstration and give you a freebie. You know, out of good faith and for the alliance and all that." So you go use a simple cantrip; Mage Hand. It's simple and easy enough to teach two guys relatively quickly, and it's useful as far as cantrips go.

So in a matter of mintues, you manage to tell the two what to do and how to cast the spell. The results are certainly...interesting. Failure for a spell can range from it simply fizzling to backfiring and going off in your face; though that is usually reserved for higher level spells. Shirou managed to get stabbed in the shoulder; by Mage Hand. You didn't think it was actually possible to fail a spell that hard, especially a cantrip; but apparently you're dead wrong.

Shinji takes to it like a fish to water, on the other hand; not only getting it right on the first try, but also managing to lift twice as much as the regular spell would, and with much more dexterity than most wizards can pull off with the simple cantrip. He has a look of sheer wonder and awe, as he move around a stack of books with ease. Huh, didn't peg him for the Wizard-type there...

Might as well get back on track here though, "So....alliance? Yes? No? Something?"

Shinji snaps out of his stupor a bit and responds, "Oh! Oh, right. Alliance, yeah. Um, there's two Servants at Ryuudo Temple; one who guards the gate and another summoning...demons, I guess. Probably Caster and whoever allied with her, though the gate guard wields a Nodachi; typical samurai basically. Since you're Saber, that means he's either Lancer, Archer, or Assassin."

"Can't be Lancer or Archer," you tell him, "Saw who both of them are, they don't fit the description. So, I guess we're allies now, eh?"

"Yeah, yeah; about your magic, do you have a...tome, or scroll on it? Something to teach some more?" Yikes, kid is the Wizard-type; going to guzzle down tomes for breakfast.

"Um, yeah; lemme just look in my bag and get it for you," you did have a Spellbook, if you could call it that. It barely had much in the way of spells for Wizards and even then didn't go past Sixth Circle. Even then, it served more as a guide on what spells you've seen in your lifetime and what they do rather than actually having the spells and how they work.

Still, it was something; and hey, it's basically solidifying this alliance here, "Here you go, knock yourself out."

You hand the book over to Shinji, who greedily takes it. He starts pouring over it, his attention solely on what's inside. He barely murmurs to you, "You can head out now, do whatever. Rider, go with them; do whatever they need you to do."

The sexy Servant took in her new orders and said, "Understood, Master."


So with that you, Shirou, and that fine woman know as Rider were now patrolling; planning out what to do for the rest of the day. Since you now had time to...socialize with your fellow Servant, you decide to engage her in some small talk, "So, since you know my name; maybe you can tell me yours? I mean, we're all friends here; we even have the same alignment and everything!"

"You don't need to know my name, Saber," Oho, a little secretive, are we? "And besides, I know what you're really after; you're not even half the man you need to be to reach me..."

She's cold, sultry, and full of secrets; you like her already. "Call me Tandem; I refuse to go by that silly Servant name. I worked long and hard to have my name recognized, I'm not going to throw it away now. And I think you'd be surprised; there's more to this man than you think. Or did you forget what I said back in the mansion?"

"Big words coming from 'big' man; I'll believe it when I see it." Hehe, baby it'll blow your mind; you'll be amazed and in these arms in no time.

"Well then, when that happens; it'll blow that little blindfold of yours right off. And then I'll gaze right into those eyes of yours and ask 'So, believe me now?'"

She actually laughs at this, "Ahahahaha, if; if you can do that: if you can impress me enough and look me right in the eye. Then, then I might actually consider it. But I really doubt you can pull that off."

You smirk; challenge accepted, baby. You don't say anything, but you don't need to: you both know that the gauntlet's been thrown, and that you've accepted. It's only a matter of time, but you're going to follow through on that promise; that's for damn sure.

Anyways, it's starting to get dark; so...
[X] Head over to the Temple, see what's up
[X] Look for Rin and Archer, they're the only one you know little about besides a Servant class
[X] Lancer's probably ready for Round 2; let's give it to him
[X] Write-in

 

[Vindictus]

Hahaha, Tandem you bloody idiot.

[X] Lancer's probably ready for Round 2; let's give it to him

 

[Fellgar]

[X] Look for Rin and Archer, they're the only one you know little about besides a Servant class

Why? Because I kind of want to pick apart archers style of fighting in seconds while holding a friendly conversation with rin. Archer will literally not have a chance.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

That.....was not at all how I expected things to go down.

I'm pleased. I like being surprised.

Also, such a blanket order? Tsk, tsk Shinji. That'll cost you.

So, Shirou turns everything into stabbity stab stab. No surprise. Shinji is actually talented at Wizard style magic. That IS surprising, but makes some sense upon further reflection. Apparently the kid is pretty talented all around, it's just the one thing he wants to be good at, magic, he has no circuits for.

Spoony hitting on dangerous women amuses me. I look forward to how this bites him in the ass. Although if ARCHER can endure Medusa's stare, Tandem can probably pull it off.

Also, Tandem has probably sown seeds that will really screw him with Shinji, but who knows, maybe it'll turn out well! *snrk*

Now...who to harass....

 

[EnderofWorlds]

So, Shirou turns everything into stabbity stab stab. No surprise. Shinji is actually talented at Wizard style magic. That IS surprising, but makes some sense upon further reflection. Apparently the kid is pretty talented all around, it's just the one thing he wants to be good at, magic, he has no circuits for.

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The average wizard; on learning Mage Hand for the first time, takes about a half hour to get the spell working, then an hour to perfect it to the sort of skill and level it's supposed to be used for (aka the stuff you pull of with it in game).

The typical prodigy takes about twenty minutes to get the spell working, then another ten minutes to fine-tune it. Then will take a half-hour to improve upon it if possible.

Shinji mastered and improved the spell in ten minutes flat. Think on that for a bit...

 

[Vindictus]

The average wizard; on learning Mage Hand for the first time, takes about a half hour to get the spell working, then an hour to perfect it to the sort of skill and level it's supposed to be used for (aka the stuff you pull of with it in game).

The typical prodigy takes about twenty minutes to get the spell working, then another ten minutes to fine-tune it. Then will take a half-hour to improve upon it if possible.

Shinji mastered and improved the spell in ten minutes flat. Think on that for a bit...

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... Does this mean we can claim that we're the greatest magic teacher in the world now?

 

[EnderofWorlds]

... Does this mean we can claim that we're the greatest magic teacher in the world now?

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If you want to stop being the Greatest Swordsman in the World right now, sure.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

The average wizard; on learning Mage Hand for the first time, takes about a half hour to get the spell working, then an hour to perfect it to the sort of skill and level it's supposed to be used for (aka the stuff you pull of with it in game).

The typical prodigy takes about twenty minutes to get the spell working, then another ten minutes to fine-tune it. Then will take a half-hour to improve upon it if possible.

Shinji mastered and improved the spell in ten minutes flat. Think on that for a bit...

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And lo, did Tandem the Spoony create a monster.



....Say, could Tandem cast permanency? On, just throwing it out there, Emiya Shirou's projected Noble Phantasms?

 

[EnderofWorlds]

....Say, could Tandem cast permanency? On, just throwing it out there, Emiya Shirou's projected Noble Phantasms?

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Tandem's seen the spell, but he doesn't know it. It'd take some rolls to see if you can figure out how to cast it; probably using your Spellcraft and Caster Level, I have to think on it.

 

[MrGazzer]

[X] Lancer's probably ready for Round 2; let's give it to him

 

[hunter09]

[X] Lancer's probably ready for Round 2; let's give it to him

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

Hmm. Stealing Gae Bolg as well would be pretty badass. It really is a great NP.

But we'd need our NP active, and we might wanna save that for when Herk comes back.

 

[FurikoMaru]

And lo, did Tandem the Spoony create a monster.

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I shall refrain from being impressed until Shinji goes Extra up in here. 8) Miracle that up, dining-implement man.

 

[Biigoh]

[X] Lancer's probably ready for Round 2; let's give it to him

 

[Emral282]

[X] Lancer's probably ready for Round 2; let's give it to him

 

[Selias]

[X] Head over to the Temple, see what's up

We're the best swordsman in the world, so we can take out Assassin, and Medusa is fast enough to kill Caster pretty easily. This will make sure that Caster can't mess with us later. Plus, I'm not sure if Zouken needs fake!Assassin to summon his servant, but might as well make sure he can't do what he did in canon.