The Problem with Rule 8 and QQ's moderation in regards of

[Beetlegeuse]

Right. Might as well take the plunge and explain why QQ's moderation is, at best, questionable, and their insistence on abiding by rule 8 detrimental at best. I'm probably gonna get hit by the mods due to the inherent impossibility of criticizing rule 8 without falling afoul of it , but eh, probably worth it.

This thread is sparked mostly by TotalAbsolutism mod decision in the Sietch thread. To clarify before anyone claims I'm posting this out of spite: I have very little animosity towards them. This post is mostly borne of frustration towards a rule that is poorly designed, poorly implemented, and just kinda poor in general.

I've noticed that the QQ mods tend to be fairly selective when it comes to rule enforcement, especially when it comes to rule 8. Their determination of whether something constitutes a breach is highly arbitrary.

https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/inane-crap-on-sv.560/page-895#post-2203074

For an example: this post where someone compares SV to Robbespierre. For those unaware, Robbespierre was a famous french political radical who operated during the french revolution. In essence, this person who is directly referencing and discussing a political discussion is calling the people in said discussion political extremists.

The mods determined this wasn't a breach of rule 8.

For another example, the trap discussion on QQ, or rather, lack of it. QQ has, effectively, banned any discussion about whether its a slur....including, effectively, any reasoned complaints on the subject. They've effectively banned discussion about whether a potential slur is a potential slur, with no real regard towards the people this would hurt.

Then we have the Sietch thread, where they've effectively banned any discussion ABOUT the sietch: the reason it was founded? Forbidden. The focus of the site? Forbidden. The behavior of its members? Effectively forbidden barring extremely minor shit like Carl Manvers posting about how dakimuras are the superior waifu or whatever.

Meanwhile, discussion about how a particular industry exploits its workers is merely off-topic: https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/inane-crap-on-sv.560/page-1072#post-3126088

A discussion about female on male abuse only got deemed political once Rakdos...Well, Rakdos'd.

https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/stupid-shit-on-sb-rants.8689/page-250#post-3136245

In general, Rule 8, as currently enforced, doesn't seem to be "no politics" so much as "no politics we disagree with or find unsightly". Like, per the wording of the rule, anything pre-20 years ago is fair game, but I don't particularly think the staff would be too happy if I made a thread about the legacy of reagan and the harm he's done to the gay community.

Fundamentally, rule 8 exists because the QQ founders wish to remain apolitical, but so long as they have an entire section of the forum dedicated to shitting on groups you don't like and ranting about perceived negative behavior in others, it will always be political, because fundamentally what behaviors are and aren't acceptable/negative/harmfull/obnoxious is in itself political.

To use a quote from the post that inspired this...

QQ is not a political discussion board, it is a board for creative writing and lewd creative writing.

Click to shrink...

If it was a forum for just creative writing, it wouldn't have rants. And ranting about other people will, inevitably, lead back to politics one way or the other.

 

[Lykaia]

If you want to bitch about politics go to SB, SV, or some other site.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

If you want to bitch about politics go to SB, SV, or some other site.

Click to shrink...

This is missing my point: you can't meaningfully divorce rants from the subject of politics. All QQ's attempt has done has produced a situation where people dance around the subject while the staff unevenly enforce their own rules.

 

[Oscar_Mike]

Damn. I knew you fucks were salty about having your incessant attacks on TS shut down on account of them being bullshit, but I didn't think you were this salty.

 

[Lykaia]

This is missing my point: you can't meaningfully divorce rants from the subject of politics. All QQ's attempt has done has produced a situation where people dance around the subject while the staff unevenly enforce their own rules.

Click to shrink...

And its still better than outright talking about it.

 

[Vajra]

Imagine being so salty about another site existing that you need the mods to change the rules so that you can whine about it more.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

Damn. I knew you fucks were salty about having your incessant attacks on TS shut down on account of them being bullshit, but I didn't think you were this salty.

Click to shrink...

???

I'm...not really that salty? Frustrated sure, but I'm not really angry. Like, if I was salty, I would have pulled a repeat of what I did to Megaolix awhile back, not make a post explaining my gripes.

And its still better than outright talking about it.

Click to shrink...

Not really: arbitrary enforcement of the rules is inherently unfair, and unfairness, when perpetuated by staff, is always a net negative to a site.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

Imagine being so salty about another site existing that you need the mods to change the rules so that you can whine about it more.

Click to shrink...

I mean, this isn't just about Sietch, and like, legit I don't even really care about Sietch that much one way or the other: I think its a dumb site, sure, but I don't reserve a place in my brain for hating it for the same reason I don't spend time being angry at youtube comments: no real point. This is actually a problem I've had an issue with since, like, before the Sietch was even a thing. The thing with the Sietch was just the tipping point.

Hell, pretty sure I've offhandedly mentioned I don't like rule 8 a ton of times before, the only difference here is that I went somewhat in-depth for my reasons so.

 

[Oscar_Mike]

I'm...not really that salty? Frustrated sure, but I'm not really angry. Like, if I was salty, I would have pulled a repeat of what I did to Megaolix awhile back, not make a post explaining my gripes.

Click to shrink...

You say that as if anyone actually fucking cares about you talking up the time you supposedly dunked on Megolix or whatever.

I mean, this isn't just about Sietch, and like, legit I don't even really care about Sietch that much one way or the other:

Click to shrink...

For someone who doesn't care about it, you spend an awful lot of time bitching about it on rittern's discord. Lemma run a quick check.....looks like more than 3000 posts made (granted, not all one of the dedicated bitching channels, but still a ton). Including immediately running back to the discord to whine about how "seitchers" are making fun of you for being so super butthurt.

This is actually a problem I've had an issue with since, like, before the Sietch was even a thing. The thing with the Sietch was just the tipping point.

Click to shrink...

"It's not about TS, it's just that getting the slightest amount of push back from being allowed to whine about TS motives me to write this whole bitchfest about how awful it is we're not allowed to whine about TS, getting it an entire paragraph in my bitchfest, and working with a bunch of my retarded anti-TS buttbuddies to give it a look over before I posted it".

I'm not mad that you're lying, I'm just disappointed that you're telling lies that are such obvious horseshit and so easy to see through.

 

[TotalAbsolutism]

This thread is sparked mostly by TotalAbsolutions mod decision in the Sietch thread. To clarify before anyone claims I'm posting this out of spite: I have very little animosity towards them. This post is mostly borne of frustration towards a rule that is poorly designed, poorly implemented, and just kinda poor in general.

Click to shrink...

At least get my name right, please.

 

[Megaolix]

There were already methods pointed out to discuss it. This is not one of them.

Thread locked. Beetlegeuse, you can already guess it, but expect something later.

 

[Megaolix]

Okay, I jumped a bit fast here. Still, Rants was not the place to discuss it.

Reopened.

 

[Gamerlord]

Including immediately running back to the discord to whine about how "seitchers" are making fun of you for being so super butthurt.

Click to shrink...

'Whine.'

Lol sietchers are trying to shit up the thread by posting the equivalent of "u mad bro?"​

Click to shrink...

Maybe don't spin lies Oscar, especially when the truth is right there for anyone to see.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

For someone who doesn't care about it, you spend an awful lot of time bitching about it on rittern's discord. Lemma run a quick check.....looks like more than 3000 posts made (granted, not all one of the dedicated bitching channels, but still a ton). Including immediately running back to the discord to whine about how "seitchers" are making fun of you for being so super butthurt.

Click to shrink...

Uh huh. You realize that very little of that discord has anything to do with the sietch, right? Like, I think I maybe have ten posts on there directly related to the sietch in the past two months. And, like, sure, I complained a bit, but primarily because I was frustrated what with you and yours trying to make this about you.

At least get my name right, please.

Click to shrink...

Look, if you don't want people to get your name wrong, you should exist while on the internet.

In seriousness tho, sorry, lemme fix it.

 

[Gamerlord]

Uh huh. You realize that very little of that discord has anything to do with the sietch, right? Like, I think I maybe have ten posts on there directly related to the sietch in the past two months. And, like, sure, I complained a bit, but primarily because I was frustrated what with you and yours trying to make this about you.

Click to shrink...

To be precise, there are 41 channels, of which one is about the Sietch. It's amazing some of the projection these people are capable of; their haven only exists because everyone else won't have them shitting up their places, so in their twisted little minds it follows that a bastion of those who they consider their opposition has to be all about them. Frankly, the Sietch and it's grubby little malcontents are irrelevant to the discord server beyond the potential for comedy their flailing generates.

EDIT: But this is a derail and I should stop.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

Seriously, this thread isn't about the sietch, and I'll ask people to kindly stop making it about the sietch.

 

[Megaolix]

Okay, to address some points.

For an example: this post where someone compares SV to Robbespierre. For those unaware, Robbespierre was a famous french political radical who operated during the french revolution. In essence, this person who is directly referencing and discussing a political discussion is calling the people in said discussion political extremists.

The mods determined this wasn't a breach of rule 8.

Click to shrink...

Notice the Rule say currents politics. The French Revolution is old enough to not matter for Rule 8.

For another example, the trap discussion on QQ, or rather, lack of it. QQ has, effectively, banned any discussion about whether its a slur....including, effectively, any reasoned complaints on the subject. They've effectively banned discussion about whether a potential slur is a potential slur, with no real regard towards the people this would hurt.

Click to shrink...

This is a bit older, but it was stated long ago we are absolutely not a safe space. And teh discussion about it back then turned to fights that were betetr shut down. So that whole topic got closed.

Then we have the Sietch thread, where they've effectively banned any discussion ABOUT the sietch: the reason it was founded? Forbidden. The focus of the site? Forbidden. The behavior of its members? Effectively forbidden barring extremely minor shit like Carl Manvers posting about how dakimuras are the superior waifu or whatever.

Click to shrink...

We tried to hold the PM discussion, rememebr? It turned into a shitstorm that could not help but go into politics.

Meanwhile, discussion about how a particular industry exploits its workers is merely off-topic: https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/inane-crap-on-sv.560/page-1072#post-3126088

Click to shrink...

https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/inane-crap-on-sv.560/page-1072#post-3126088
I should check the link after, what is politics about that?

A discussion about female on male abuse only got deemed political once Rakdos...Well, Rakdos'd.

https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/stupid-shit-on-sb-rants.8689/page-250#post-3136245

Click to shrink...

https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/stupid-shit-on-sb-rants.8689/page-250#post-3136245
Gender politics. We are kinda aware of the matter of testimony and trustworthiness of victims about those caes.

 

[Gamerlord]

I should check the link after, what is politics about that?

Click to shrink...

...Classism? Worker-capitalist relations? This is literally the founding issue of communism dude.

 

[TotalAbsolutism]

Look, if you don't want people to get your name wrong, you should exist while on the internet.

In seriousness tho, sorry, lemme fix it.

Click to shrink...

Cheers.

Listen, I understand your frustration. Really, I do. Spotty enforcement is a problem and one that should probably be addressed. However, at it's core, the point of Rule 8 was, and was always meant to be, an anti-flamewar rule.

Regardless of what my personal politics are, and I don't exactly hide that given my posting history and library of fiction exists, I do my best to hit people who agree and disagree with me alike because all we really want to do is prevent shit-storms. That's about the long and short of it.

It's not so much about this or that political bugbear or what have you, and more that we'd just quite like people to stop shitting themselves in public and then throwing that shit everywhere. Which is made more difficult when we then end up in the middle trying to stop the shit-flinging only to have other people come along and say, "Wow, look at you, covered in shit, must really love shit huh."

Insofar as the Sietch thread has any purpose it ought to be the same as the other threads on outside-QQ boards; which, I'll note, is mostly for the purpose of members to come and complain about other members doing a dumb. Usually picking inane fights with the staff or deciding that posting their particular fetish fuel in the SFW section is an inalienable right, etc. Someone made that thread, it exists now. It got closed because people couldn't stop starting slap-fights, we waited a few months for the heat to die down and now it's open again and people can't help but start slap-fights.

Likewise, sometimes these things get out of hand before we can quash them. I myself try and remain on top of things, especially in Rants given it is a volatile area, but it's not always possible to catch a debate before it starts to spiral into an awful mudslinging match.

 

[Beetlegeuse]

Notice the Rule say currents politics. The French Revolution is old enough to not matter for Rule 8.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but my point was that comparing someone who exists today to a political radical is still comparing them to a political radical and thus a political insult. Like, if I compared (off the top of my head) Gamerlord to Mao Zedong for supporting something related to housing, it doesn't really matter that Mao has been dead for a long, long time, its still highly politically charged. (To be clear, I was just using that as an example: Gamerlord has, as far as I'm aware, no stalin-ish traits).

This is a bit older, but it was stated long ago we are absolutely not a safe space. And teh discussion about it back then turned to fights that were betetr shut down. So that whole topic got closed.

Click to shrink...

Which is a harmful decision. Like, "We are X" isn't really a meaningful rebuttle to "You are X, and that is bad". You're effectively saying that if any trans person takes issue with the term, they have to grin and bear it. You wouldn't do that to black people getting upset over racial slurs, or gay people getting upset over homophobic slurs, so why is it transpeople have to deal with that?

(To be clear, I don't think you're neccesarily transphobic, I just think that rule 8 has led to an atmosphere hostile to transfolk.)

We tried to hold the PM discussion, rememebr? It turned into a shitstorm that could not help but go into politics.

Click to shrink...

Again, this isn't really a rebuttal: yes, it became a shitstorm, but you literally cannot discuss the sietch's founding without discussing the PM, which combined with the plethora of other stuff deemed political about the sietch, means you can't discuss, like, 90% of the site.

I should check the link after, what is politics about that?

Click to shrink...

The exploitation of workers is an inherently political subject. Sure, it might be the games industry, but exploitation of the working class is still exploitation of the working class.

Gender politics. We are kinda aware of the matter of testimony and trustworthiness of victims about those caes.

Click to shrink...

Okay but my point was that it wasn't deemed political until Rakdos went and was overt about it, despite, again, the inherent political nature of the subject.

And in general, you're missing my point: theres an incredibly uneven enforcement of the no politics rule thats resulted in unfair results, which has ultimately resulted in a worse site.

However, at it's core, the point of Rule 8 was, and was always meant to be, an anti-flamewar rule.

Click to shrink...

I mean, the solution there would just be removing the rule 1 relaxation. Because as long as people are allowed to yell vitriol at each other, there'll be flame-wars, rule 8 or not. Like, the solution to people being awful to each other isn't to ban politics that can potentially lead to them being awful and hope that stops them from getting mad at each other in a subfora specifically designed so that angry members can yell at stuff, its to ban being awful.

Insofar as the Sietch thread has any purpose it ought to be the same as the other threads on outside-QQ boards; which, I'll note, is mostly for the purpose of members to come and complain about other members doing a dumb. Usually picking inane fights with the staff or deciding that posting their particular fetish fuel in the SFW section is an inalienable right, etc. Someone made that thread, it exists now. It got closed because people couldn't stop starting slap-fights, we waited a few months for the heat to die down and now it's open again and people can't help but start slap-fights.

Click to shrink...

Again, the problem is, 90% of the inanity on the sietch is political, one way or the others, with maybe the exception being carl manvers and his dakimakura obsession I've heard about once or twice.

It's not so much about this or that political bugbear or what have you

Click to shrink...

I mean, I'm sure its not a conscious political bias, but its very obvious to someone whose paying attention that there's at least a subconscious bias, resulting in "things we agree with not said in an unsightly manner" not pinging as politics.

 

[Oscar_Mike]

Uh huh. You realize that very little of that discord has anything to do with the sietch, right? Like, I think I maybe have ten posts on there directly related to the sietch in the past two months.

Click to shrink...

Nice weasel words "directly related". Now if we add in all your posts on the channels bitching about SB not going after people who you don't like the politics of (often because they're part of TS's starting membership) or in the channel talking about the PM debacle that started this whole mess, that post gets real high, real fast.

And, like, sure, I complained a bit, but primarily because I was frustrated what with you and yours trying to make this about you.

Click to shrink...

You created this entire topic because you were butthurt about the mods telling you and your dumbass buddies to knock it off with bringing up politics in the midst of your flailing attempts to attack TS.

To be precise, there are 41 channels, of which one is about the Sietch.

Click to shrink...

And there's like 3 more devoted to attacking anyone you disagree with politically on all the other SB splinter sites, and one for whining about the PM issue, all of which have a fair amount of cross topic whining.

It's amazing some of the projection these people are capable of; their haven only exists because everyone else won't have them shitting up their places, so in their twisted little minds it follows that a bastion of those who they consider their opposition has to be all about them.

Click to shrink...

If you look up projection in the dictonary, the listed definition isn't "a guy on discord channel run by and full of posters banned from SB for bring toxic little shits, accusing other forums of bring created because no other place will tolerate thier userbase".......but it should be.

Frankly, the Sietch and it's grubby little malcontents are irrelevant to the discord server beyond the potential for comedy their flailing generates.

Click to shrink...

I've seen the server archives of your discord, dude. The bitching channels are fucking massive files compared to any of the other channels.

EDIT: But this is a derail and I should stop.

Click to shrink...

"This is a derail, but before I drop the point lemma spew some more bullshit and try to get the last word in".

 

[TotalAbsolutism]

Which is a harmful decision. Like, "We are X" isn't really a meaningful rebuttle to "You are X, and that is bad". You're effectively saying that if any trans person takes issue with the term, they have to grin and bear it. You wouldn't do that to black people getting upset over racial slurs, or gay people getting upset over homophobic slurs, so why is it transpeople have to deal with that?

(To be clear, I don't think you're neccesarily transphobic, I just think that rule 8 has led to an atmosphere hostile to transfolk.)

Click to shrink...

Isn't the implication here, however, that you don't want a discussion either?

I mean, the solution there would just be removing the rule 1 relaxation. Because as long as people are allowed to yell vitriol at each other, there'll be flame-wars, rule 8 or not. Like, the solution to people being awful to each other isn't to ban politics that can potentially lead to them being awful and hope that stops them from getting mad at each other in a subfora specifically designed so that angry members can yell at stuff, its to ban being awful.

Click to shrink...

EDIT: This part of my response got eaten, but can be summed up as "You've got somewhat of a point here, I'll personally discuss it with the other staff, but right now we've got what we've got."

Again, the problem is, 90% of the inanity on the sietch is political, one way or the others, with maybe the exception being carl manvers and his dakimakura obsession I've heard about once or twice.

Click to shrink...

Which really ought to mean less traffic for that board rather than more. Just let it die an ignoble, silent death.

I mean, I'm sure its not a conscious political bias, but its very obvious to someone whose paying attention that there's at least a subconscious bias, resulting in "things we agree with not said in an unsightly manner" not pinging as politics.

Click to shrink...

I'm not so sure. We have a fairly wide variety in staff, and I don't believe that all of us are in agreement on these matters.

Oscar_Mike, just stop it already, you're not helping anyone; least of all yourself.

 

[alethiophile]

The question of what is or is not "political" is at base impossible to answer, if you insist on giving it a rigorous definition. This is because any such definition will eventually just go back to "anything people are having fights about". And anyone can automatically make something "political" under this definition just by starting a fight about it.

Thus, the definition of what is "political" under Rule 8 is, of necessity, fuzzy and subjective. The entities making this determination are the mod staff. We aren't inclined to entertain anyone's random claim that X or Y topic is "political" because someone once had a fight about it, or they really want a fight about it; if we allowed this, we'd end up having to ban every topic of discussion humans have ever had. Likewise, we aren't going to give you an exception because you think your politics are Really Good, Actually, and it's Very Important that you be able to pursue them here. QQ is not a platform for your activism, whatever the purpose of that activism may be.

Furthermore, as noted, the fundamental purpose of Rule 8 is to reduce flamewars. The question of what topics are "political" and what are just common sense, or human decency, or whatever, is itself a political one, and one that is (as we can see) prone to flamewars. Therefore, this discussion itself is also not one we allow on QQ. In accordance with this, this thread will now be locked.