vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
Because games care about it being an actual microsoft controller.
-
The site has now migrated to Xenforo 2. If you see any issues with the forum operation, please post them in the feedback thread.
-
Due to issues with external spam filters, QQ is currently unable to send any mail to Microsoft E-mail addresses. This includes any account at live.com, hotmail.com or msn.com. Signing up to the forum with one of these addresses will result in your verification E-mail never arriving. For best results, please use a different E-mail provider for your QQ address.
-
The rules regarding NSFW links have been updated. See here for details.
Video Games General
- Thread starter Smuthunter
- Start date
-
- Tags
- discussion video games
Because games care about it being an actual microsoft controller.
Dakkaface
Magical Defender of Justice
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2014
- Messages
- 2,416
- Likes received
- 19,670
Srsly? I've never encountered a game that required me to have an official MS controller. But then, I am gaming on Linux and mostly playing indie titles rather than AAA.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
Even a lot of indy games on windows don't like other controllers. Anything that uses direct x probably won't use anything but without software to make them think it's an MS controller. This sometimes doesn't work.
Dakkaface
Magical Defender of Justice
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2014
- Messages
- 2,416
- Likes received
- 19,670
Can you name a few? Because this seems pretty crazy to me.
EDIT: Like, I get that the Games for Windows thing made the Xbox controller a real popular choice, but I've not heard of any games that require it.
aquinas
I trust you know where the happy button is?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2015
- Messages
- 787
- Likes received
- 3,097
As someone who plays with a controller a lot, thats because outside of probably some bizarre edge cases that isn't a thing. Like if the device supports X-Input, it will probably respond fine.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
Dark Souls as an example.
aquinas
I trust you know where the happy button is?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2015
- Messages
- 787
- Likes received
- 3,097
f310 definitely works there.
SwiftRosenthal
Connoisseur.
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2014
- Messages
- 23,924
- Likes received
- 146,862
My PC actually cost around $1600ish, but it was my first from-scratch build and I needed everything - not just a case, mobo, OS, CPU, GPU, PSU, RAM, fan, storage, disk drive, and peripherals, but also a monitor and (all-in-one) printer. Storage especially was expensive at the time, because the factories in Thailand, where (apparently) the world's supply of hard drives comes from, were kind of underwater. If I rebuilt today, all I'd really need, hardware-wise, are a new CPU and mobo.
Furniture, OTOH... The chair I'm sitting in right now is older than I am, and looks it, and my desk was built in the CRT era, long before 20"+ widescreen was standard.
Furniture, OTOH... The chair I'm sitting in right now is older than I am, and looks it, and my desk was built in the CRT era, long before 20"+ widescreen was standard.
aabbcc
Well worn.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 6,294
- Likes received
- 40,928
Also false. There's stuff still in stock, usually.
By 100$, you're ~20$ away from the mid-rangers, entry level is the 50~100$ range.
Which you can keep using, and using, and using. My current case is from '92~95, my keyboard is even older, mouse and monitor are newer on virtue of laser rather than trackball and flat screens respectively, but still over a decade old, and my speakers are from the 60s.
Speaking as someone who has played Dark Souls with a PSX controller, I can tell you that it's false. So long as you have something to translate the controller input into x-input, a free piece of software, mind you, then you can play with a gamepad. I've yet to see a game that can tell the difference.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
Not for cheap.
... Do you know what the product stack looks like in a modern context?
Display Adapters
RX550/GT1030=~65-85$ Don't buy these. If you have to, the RX550 is about 10% faster than the 1030. The 1050 and RX560 are twice as fast for less than twice as expensive. Just don't.
Entry Level:
1050/RX560=~100$ MSRP, these are the lowest end things anyone should buy
1050ti=~125-150$ Best performer for 75w power draw, otherwise don't buy it. Still entry level, only around 15% faster than the above two at best
Limbo(aka, I don't know how the fuck to classify this)
RX570/GTX 1060 3 gig=~175-210$ Prices vary wildly on these parts, about 10-15% slower than the next tier up for about that much less expensive. Better buys than the 1050ti by a long shot.
Mid Range:
RX 580/1060 6gig=~200-300$ Solidly mid range GPUs, right in the center of the current product stacks. RX580 is usually the cheaper of the two and is faster, get the 8 gig version if possible.
RX 590=275-350$(rumored pricing, very rumored) Should be about 12-15% faster than the RX580, possibly 20% faster than the GTX 1060 6 gig on average, price reflects this. We think. Same power draw as an RX 580(should be anyway), so a good upgrade from it if you don't want to spend more(when the thing finally fucking launches)
High End
Rx Vega 56/GTX 1070=~400-450$ Very good cards, suitable for 1440p high refresh rate gaming and some 4k gaming if you want to turn down quality settings. The Vega here is about 5% faster on average than the 1070 and, when overclocked, matches the highest end AMD GPU.
GTX 1070ti=~450-500$ Literally the next tier up when overclocked, otherwise about 7% faster than the 1070.
RX Vega 64/GTX 1080/RTX 2070=~500-600$ Perfectly suited to 1440p high refresh rate gaming. They all perform within 5% of each other with very little pattern on which is the fastest card, if it's cheaper than the other 2 get the RTX 2070, it is more future proof than the 1080 and pulls less power than the Vega64. Don't get any of them if a Vega56 or a GTX 1070ti are available and cheaper, just buy and overclock those and you get comparable performance.
Enthusiast
1080ti=Fuck if I know. It used to be the cheapest out of these GPUs at 600-700$ but now stock has vanished and the cheapest ones are well above that price now
2080=~700-950$ If it's 700$ then it can be worth it, otherwise don't fucking bother. It's as fast as a 1080ti which is 35% faster than a gtx 1080 for way more than 35% more expensive. Can do 4k fairly well without anti-aliasing though.
2080ti=1200-1400$ Fastest GPU on the planet, can easily do 4k 60fps in the majority of games in existence. Fucking expensive though.
aabbcc
Well worn.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 6,294
- Likes received
- 40,928
The bubble in prices around the start of the year skews things, but one, that's not the normal behavior of things, and two, prices have been steadily going down since then.
The issue is that we have two very different ideas of 'entry level'. I consider that to be 'enough to play whatever damn game I please with decent performance.
Now, ideally, that'd also include whatever comes next with the next generation of consoles, but since those are 1~2 years away, the only way to do that would be to hit at least the mid range cards now... or alternatively, since any damn videocard can easily do the games out now that are still working for the old specs, you can buy a cheap or used one or stick with an old one, and then upgrade in a couple years. By that point, getting the performance of what is the upper mid-range now will be at around the price of entry level stuff.
wayne82444
Experienced.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2014
- Messages
- 4,866
- Likes received
- 9,257
Good question. Some people care about that, but 3rd party controllers tend to work fine in my experience. Which brings us back to this:
Why does this matter? If you support buying a 3rd party controller anyway just get a 3rd party XBox One controller instead of a Microsoft one. Seriously, you can't have double standards when you are trying to compare prices like this, either both the console and the PC get priced for 3rd party controllers, or both get priced for official controllers. Anything else is just trying to make one look better by artificially inflating the price of the other one.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
That would be... the 1050, 1050ti, and RX560. Anything lower wouldn't do that. Hell, even those GPUs sometimes struggle.
aquinas
I trust you know where the happy button is?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2015
- Messages
- 787
- Likes received
- 3,097
Turn off specular defraction and motion blur, kill the hair physics, kill the anti-aliasing and vsync and you can run the latest Tomb Raider at 720p with a GTX660 (A $40 Potato Now). With a GeForce 970 ($90 even with the crazy that is bitcoin miners) all you will miss out on is a bit of hair physics and motion blur weirdness.
I know you seem to be all in on consoles here, but this is just a silly position.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
The 970 is about as fast as a 1050ti. Well, between that and a 1060 3gig.
And those are used prices.
aquinas
I trust you know where the happy button is?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2015
- Messages
- 787
- Likes received
- 3,097
Yes? Kindof hard to find them otherwise now.
New in box is $300 if you want to go for that, so more than the 1050 at $130, probably due to supply.
Look, the main point is - i think - claims that PC gaming is prohibitively expensive - like yours - all stem from the idea that you need to be driving a Ferrari to get anywhere when you can get pretty much anywhere you want to go in a Subaru. You can always pick out the Ferrari parts and talk about how impossibly expensive they are.
To take it to a little extreme: Holy shit man, that McClaren is $400K, how can people even drive cars! I'm sticking to my Vespa!
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
I didn't say that PC gaming is prohibitively expensive. Fuck, I am a PC gamer, that's why I know the current market dude. The benefits to PC gaming pricing, right now, is the overtime prices. And 720p is only good enough for people on a tight budget or on phones. You don't have to pay for online service, you can get really good sales, you have a massive selection, you have emulators, etc, etc.
aquinas
I trust you know where the happy button is?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2015
- Messages
- 787
- Likes received
- 3,097
...
No. Wait. Really?
You've been arguing up the costs of PC Gaming for like a day and a half now because you have overly high standards.
Not because you're defending console gaming.
... I'm just going to shovel my driveway, I'm out.
aabbcc
Well worn.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 6,294
- Likes received
- 40,928
It only needs to last 2 years until the next gen of consoles come out, the mining bubble finishes dying out due ASICs taking over and prices dropping, and thus, the prices of 1~2 year old cards to return to normal.
And by then, the 60~100$ cards would be able to match or exceed the performance of said console generation, much like it happened with all the previous console generations.
EDIT: Also keep in mind that had the new generation of consoles come out this year? the prices of those would have skyrocketed as well, for the exact same reasons as the videocard and ram prices did so.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
720p isn't great because you're generally close to the screen, aliasing is really noticeable. For extreme budget builds it's ok, and it's great for making old hardware last, but it really isn't ideal. It gives console quality at best.
The mining bubble is already over. Ended months ago. And no, the 60-100$ GPUs today match the lowest end consoles of this generation. There is not a chance in hell that the next batch of 60-100$ GPUs will do that.
aabbcc
Well worn.
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 6,294
- Likes received
- 40,928
It might be over, but the prices haven't finished dropping as they should, because the bubble ate all the stock of those videocards, meaning there are no cards sitting in a warehouse eating space that retailers would prefer being spent on a newer product, which is what usually makes ~150$ cards drop to ~100 after a couple years, and for the really expensive ones to drop significantly more.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
No, the prices have dropped below MSRP for a lot of GPUs. You can find some RX580s, even 8 gig models, below 200$.
Recently, nvidia has stopped producing 1080tis, so their prices are going to be insane since they've been a hot seller ever since the 2080 came out.
Dakkaface
Magical Defender of Justice
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2014
- Messages
- 2,416
- Likes received
- 19,670
PC's don't have a 'first party' that controls all hardware and software. You have an array of manufacturers and companies that make various parts and software. What would define a first party peripheral in the PC space? Is it specialty? Logitech makes input devices - mice, keyboards, controllers. Has for years. Is it hardware? If you have Corsair RAM in your computer, does that make a Corsair keyboard a first party controller? Software, the OS maybe? Who's the first party for Linux? Apple has the closest thing in the personal computer space to having a console-like first party/third party system, but one doesn't build a gaming PC and put OSX on it, you buy a Mac off the shelf and maybe put games on it.
I'm not going to pretend that PC gaming isn't more expensive in terms of hardware, but the trade off on that is a much larger library of games at a huge variety of price points and higher system power.
For me personally, the fact that playing on a console monopolizes the TV pretty much negates my interest in it. I can play a game on my computer while my kids or wife watch TV. I have no desire to fight over the main living room screen.
wayne82444
Experienced.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2014
- Messages
- 4,866
- Likes received
- 9,257
PCs don't have a first party. That said, the same places that make controlles for consoles? They make them for PC as well. That's first party on a PC, because they are the ones that make the official controllers. So for an XBox controller? First party is Microsoft. And hey, look at this. All it took to find a Microsoft XBox controller for PC was to check Amazon really quick.
Could have fooled me. You seem to be arguing that PC gaming is cheap. It isn't. That's what upsets me about the PC Master Race stuff- you always see people talking about all these benefits to PC gaming, then they try to pretend those all come at the same cost as a console. They don't. PC gaming tends to be more expensive than consoles at the same level of performance, and getting better performance is even more expensive. Not to say PCs are bad to game on, just that the benefits have their costs is all.
vyor
Oh that's cute
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2015
- Messages
- 13,975
- Likes received
- 48,487
Not quite true. You can get dirt cheap CPUs and still have better than what the consoles have right now.
Dakkaface
Magical Defender of Justice
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2014
- Messages
- 2,416
- Likes received
- 19,670
PC don't have a first party, but somehow Microsoft is first party and therefor must be used in comparison? Pull the other one, it's got bells on. If you have a PC you don't have to buy an Xbox controller. Logitech is fine. I'm not arguing that PC gaming is cheap, I was just pointing out that your price point on that one item is grossly off, considering the F310 is easily acquired for a quarter of that price.
PC gaming is absolutely not 'more expensive at the same level of performance,' it's more 'better performance at or slightly above the same cost, or vastly improved performance if you are willing to put the money in.' Consoles have to be designed and built en-masse and retain system specs as much as possible - that means that while they can be a bit cheaper than a computer built at the same time with the same parts, they get designed in one year, then produced, then shipped, and by the time they hit shelves they're already at least a generation behind the latest hardware if not 2 or more. And then the lifespan of the console is probably 5-8 years and it won't be touched in that time, falling further and further behind. It's simple logistics that console performance will always be behind PC performance.
And for the end-user, cost goes down once you've made certain purchases. Once you have a quality keyboard, mouse, case, fans, and power supply - you don't need to upgrade those parts, they'll work just fine with the next generation processor/mobo/GPU you stick in the case. Beyond that there are options to increase or alleviate performance issues on PC that often don't exist on consoles. Graphics settings seem to be absent on a lot of console games, and tweaking them to maximize performance is pretty much a standard thing in PC gaming. Partial upgrades, going piece by piece over time are a thing you can do on a PC. Likewise, PC is often better about retaining old titles, and with Steam sales and the various bundle sites, often cheaper on the games side, despite the hardware being more expensive.
I think PC gaming is mostly daunting for the non-enthusaist crowd. If you're not taking the time to build your own computer and just trying to game with the Dell you bought off the shelf at Best Buy, of course it's going to look like a garbage deal compared to consoles. I played games on PC but I didn't realize how much better they could be until I built my own rig - for about the same cost as the one of the shelf, but FAR better optimized for gaming.
Consoles have far cheaper entry requirements - both in cash and time: setup time, peripherals, and even installing each game (most of the time). But I think over time that evens out considerably. I'm not really championing one over the other here, it's pros and cons,
wayne82444
Experienced.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2014
- Messages
- 4,866
- Likes received
- 9,257
PCs don't have a first party. Consoles do. My point is that if you want to insist on using the price of a 1st party controller on the console, rather than the far cheaper 3rd party one, then you have to use the equivalent for the PC. In this case it is an official Microsoft controller, since what you are using for the console is an official Microsoft controller. If you want to use a cheaper controller for PC, then stop trying to artificially inflate the cost of the console by using a 1st party controller- use the $15 3rd party controller instead. It works out to the controller basically being the same price for either, so stop trying to bill the consoles controller for 4x the price of the PC one. Your the one trying to get the price grossly off by insisting that the console use a $60 controller while the PC gets a $15-20 one.
Pretty much this- consoles are better for people who don't want to put up a bunch of time and money upfront for their system. PCs are better for people who are willing to dedicate time to keeping their system running well, and have the money to pay for the higher entry cost. And when you get down to it, the games themselves tend to be the same- consoles are standardized, so you tend to get the game running faster than PC, where you sometimes have to spend time fiddling with settings or drivers because something isn't working right. On the other hand once you get the PC game running well it tends to run better than the console, due to having better hardware. Neither option is bad. They are just that, options.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2015
- Messages
- 6,071
- Likes received
- 22,138
PC also gets the weird shit like that batman game that ran like sssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttttttttt
