Zero content posts

[iambasho]

Recently there has been a wave of people jumping on the "First!" bandwagon on pretty much every new chapter I've found here. I know some forums have behavior like that as against their rules, but the closest one I think could apply is Rule 5, staying on topic. Is there any chance I'm misinterpreting the rules or, if I'm not, this type of behavior could be added? It's getting pretty tiresome when every time I see new content that the next two or more posts are basically all attempts to post first with one or two words posted within the same minute as the new chapter.

 

[snthsnth]

Recently there has been a wave of people jumping on the "First!" bandwagon on pretty much every new chapter I've found here. I know some forums have behavior like that as against their rules, but the closest one I think could apply is Rule 5, staying on topic. Is there any chance I'm misinterpreting the rules or, if I'm not, this type of behavior could be added? It's getting pretty tiresome when every time I see new content that the next two or more posts are basically all attempts to post first with one or two words posted within the same minute as the new chapter.

Click to shrink...

I'll second this, and also bring back the 'TFTC' and 'Thanks for the chapter' post complaint. I'm seeing 1-3 of them on a lot of fics, and it makes reading the comments undesirable.

 

[KingNecron101]

I've honestly not been seeing it that much. Usually it is just those people who are really fast saying Nice Update. But I have seen a couple of the First things, just not often enough to see it as a problem.

 

[snthsnth]

I've honestly not been seeing it that much. Usually it is just those people who are really fast saying Nice Update. But I have seen a couple of the First things, just not often enough to see it as a problem.

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So here's the thing. If 'first'ing is allowed on QQ, then there will be a group of posters who will have a strong tendency towards spamming new threads and update posts with attempts to be 'First'. If it's not allowed, stopping it early is preferable to trying to stop it once it's gained momentum.

It may eventually become a standard part of the QQ community if it is allowed once it's started. If we have a ruling on zero-content posts we'll know that we can report them and head off this behavior before it becomes entrenched.

 

[KingNecron101]

So here's the thing. If 'first'ing is allowed on QQ, then there will be a group of posters who will have a strong tendency towards spamming new threads and update posts with attempts to be 'First'. If it's not allowed, stopping it early is preferable to trying to stop it once it's gained momentum.

It may eventually become a standard part of the QQ community if it is allowed once it's started. If we have a ruling on zero-content posts we'll know that we can report them and head off this behavior before it becomes entrenched.

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I can see that, and I'll agree with the First stuff being bad and it being headed off early is a good idea.

However, I will respectfully disagree about the Thanks for the Chapter and TFTC stuff. Those aren't for other readers but for the author themselves. Personally, back when I used to write a lot more (I'm starting back up again) these were the kind of comments that I appreciated and helped keep up my desire to write more chapters. Just some simple validation that the chapters were good and warranted a small comment meant a lot.

Now, if the author themselves dislikes these comments, then it would be good for them to be stopped. As readers, we can just skim past those comments pretty easily enough anyway.

 

[Vanbers]

So here's the thing. If 'first'ing is allowed on QQ, then there will be a group of posters who will have a strong tendency towards spamming new threads and update posts with attempts to be 'First'. If it's not allowed, stopping it early is preferable to trying to stop it once it's gained momentum.

It may eventually become a standard part of the QQ community if it is allowed once it's started. If we have a ruling on zero-content posts we'll know that we can report them and head off this behavior before it becomes entrenched.

Click to shrink...

Saying you liked a chapter or 'TFTC' posts aren't there for you as a reader, they're there as a message to the author.

As an author, relying on likes doesn't hit the dopamine button, but seeing plenty of people invested and actually posting thanks does.

Something like "First!" is bad because it's very clearly just there for pointless internet bragging rights, something like "TFTC" is fine because it's expressing that you liked the chapter/story. And frankly, if you can't handle people saying "TFTC", Reader Mode is right there. All punishing saying 'Thanks" or 'Nice Chapter' will do is lower engagement, imo.

Sometimes I just want to say I liked a chapter and want to thank the author. That's "Zero Content", despite the fact it might be appreciated by the author. And I'm more interested in letting the person writing the story enjoy writing the story than some rando getting free content complaining about having to scroll a whole fraction of an inch past a post they don't like.

'Ignore' and 'Reader Mode' are things that exist. The tools are there for you to curate the responses to a story you want, no need to scour all responses you personally feel 'aren't good enough' to count as feedback/engagement from everybody's view.

And IIRC 'Firsting' isn't allowed, it's covered by the 'Don't be a dick' rule, imo. ...Also it tends to be something found mostly in younger viewers, so usually the people that would do it out themselves pretty soon as being underage, and get perma'd.




TL;DR Just put Jason Wu on ignore if it's so incredibly important to you, fam

 

[ChandraMagic]

(This is a post as a user, not as a mod voice, this is not a mod post, this is just a user post)

If all you want to say is nice update, or thanks for the chapter, perhaps, just perhaps, you can just like the post instead? Just a thought. It means pretty much the same thing, and doesn't start spawning page long discussions about the person that posted first, or didn't post first, instead of, you know, discussing the update.

Perhaps you can come back later and write a longer post about the parts of the update you liked? You know, just as a thought.

 

[HypoSoc]

Speaking as someone who writes, I would prefer people hitting the like button instead of making a no content thankyou post. If it's just a formulaic thank you, that's what the 'like' button is for. And it can be disappointing to see a reply and have it only be a low content post.

I would also much prefer a high content reaction that demonstrates engagement. Those are definitely appreciated. Questions, comments, favorite moments, mini omake... that's all engagement that is specific to the writing. But 'TYFTC' might as well have been any bit of writing at all. Likes are an absolutely fine way to convey that information.

And, as a reader, I don't like scrolling through low content thank you posts. But that's a separate matted.

 

[Kay Redfield]

Speaking as someone who writes, I would prefer people hitting the like button instead of making a no content thankyou post. If it's just a formulaic thank you, that's what the 'like' button is for. And it can be disappointing to see a reply and have it only be a low content post.

I would also much prefer a high content reaction that demonstrates engagement. Those are definitely appreciated. Questions, comments, favorite moments, mini omake... that's all engagement that is specific to the writing. But 'TYFTC' might as well have been any bit of writing at all. Likes are an absolutely fine way to convey that information.

And, as a reader, I don't like scrolling through low content thank you posts. But that's a separate matted.

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Or, instead of telling people what they can, and what they can't do, like every control freak ever who wants the entire world to personally cater to them, you change to fit the majority, because while your part of the QQ community, you don't represent the community itself - i certainly didn't vote for you. In layman terms, your little issue should be easily fixable by having someone code a script for the site which would allow a QQ user to just filter what they don't like. Don't want low content posts? Have an option that allows one to ignore notifications from normal users/everyone who make posts below a certain amount of words. That should trim the fat. Also, just like on fzone95, there could be two sections made for a thread. One meant for comments, and another for reviews. Again, simple - so long as there's someone capable of coding that is.

 

[Biigoh]

Or... and I can't believe I have to say this... set them to ignore.

 

[HypoSoc]

Or, instead of telling people what they can, and what they can't do, like every control freak ever who wants the entire world to personally cater to them, you change to fit the majority, because while your part of the QQ community, you don't represent the community itself - i certainly didn't vote for you

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This is an extremely hostile response, in a forum thread explicitly about asking what people's preferences are.

Please take a moment to calm down and ask yourself why you got so upset when, in a thread somebody asks 'how do people feel about X' somebody responded 'I personally prefer Y.'

As another note, I am interested in why you feel like that community majority agrees with your views. That is a very strong statement. I am interested in what leads you to believe that.

As for my personal evidence, I can't claim that a majority share my views. I have no reason to assume one way or the other. But I do know this wasn't a thing on QQ five years ago.

If it turns out a majority of the forum does prefer TFTC responses, I won't care and I will get over it. But I'm not going to pretend to believe that when nobody has even asked.

Or... and I can't believe I have to say this... set them to ignore.

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As for the ignore option, I am against that. These members of the community are potentially valuable contributors. I don't want to be locked out of their voices entirely just because they do one thing that mildly irritates me.

 

[seeing_octarine]

Not only are there tftcposters and firstposters running around spewing offtopic garbage everywhere, but there's also the occasional apologist for them claiming it's totally okay guys and why are you trying to be the fun police and the negative impact on discussion is nothing to see here.

I just want to remind everyone that blatant spam is technically not against the current rules as written. Might want to take that into account when forming opinions on this subject.

Back in the day I remember Knightfall treating the Worm ideas thread as a low content discord chat and getting rightfully smacked down for it.

 

[Doctor Blood]

Bringing this up again, there has been a noticeable shift in the userbase over the past few years; not only are threads full of non-substantive posts like "TFTC", I'm now seeing threads where posts of "First!" "Second!" "Third!" are pushing actual discussion off the page. I don't enjoy seeing this kind of low-effort posting.

Putting people on ignore isn't a solution to this, because this kind of shitposting is going to be normalized if it isn't stopped.

(It would interesting to take a survey to see where people join QQ from - SB/SV, internet search, FF.net, Fiction.live, etc.)

low content discord chat

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This description really resonates with me. We have a lot of new people with very different cultural norms who are treating the forum like discord/irc.

 

[evildice]

As an author, relying on likes doesn't hit the dopamine button, but seeing plenty of people invested and actually posting thanks does.

Click to shrink...

Here's the thing -- typing "TFTC" does not represent investment nor engagement.

It's just a way of hitting "Like" but taking up a lot more space to do the same thing. It's generic and non-specific. "Nice update" and the like are similarly generic, non-engaged and non-invested.

The "Like" button exists to move that sort of trivial interaction out of the way of more involved, more invested, actually engaged posts which have specific feedback, comments, or questions for an author.

 

[blarker654]

So, bringing this topic back up....

After about 2 or 3 weeks of people starting to hop on the 'tftc' and 'nice update' low content post trend, I got tired of it and wanted to stop seeing it. I didn't really want to start really using my ignore list since these are people who could still be contributing to discussions or writing their own stories, and I didn't want to just block that all out, but I started really getting irritated when scrolling past all these posts so I started doing it anyways as it was the best tool to stop myself from seeing it, while still viewing comments and other discussion.

Putting people on ignore isn't a solution to this, because this kind of shitposting is going to be normalized if it isn't stopped.

Click to shrink...

But I gotta say, this is correct. Blocking isn't doing it. Before I started this, I had like 3-4 people on my ignore list, and now I have almost 120. And many fics that I bother to read the comments on I have to add another one or two after every chapter. I don't really want to only ever use reader mode, since there are times where I am interested in seeing what people have to say about a story or given chapter, and not only are more people constantly doing this, I am starting to get uncomfortable with how bloated my ignore list is becoming with people who I really don't have any other complaints against; I just want to stop having to scroll through multiple super low content posts after every chapter.

 

[snthsnth]

I'm sure someone could program an option that allows you to block posts based on their content and/or post size. It'd probably be pretty darn hard, and there's no reason to do it until we get Xen2.

I'm tired of the spam, but I hate presuming that an occasional spammer has absolutely nothing worthwhile to say.

 

[evildice]

Bringing this up again, there has been a noticeable shift in the userbase over the past few years; not only are threads full of non-substantive posts like "TFTC", I'm now seeing threads where posts of "First!" "Second!" "Third!" are pushing actual discussion off the page. I don't enjoy seeing this kind of low-effort posting.

Putting people on ignore isn't a solution to this, because this kind of shitposting is going to be normalized if it isn't stopped.

Click to shrink...

It's great to see a mod acknowledge the issue.

The sooner a mod starts giving people notice that it's unacceptable, the easier the job will be.

It would have been MUCH easier if someone had put a foot down back when it was mostly just one guy doing it -- now it will be more effort, but if it's left alone then the effort will only increase over time.

I'm tired of the spam, but I hate presuming that an occasional spammer has absolutely nothing worthwhile to say.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, the ideal would be for those "first!" / "tftc" / "nice chapter" people to become better posters by actually saying something about whatever they just read.

I don't want them to quit the site, I want them to make posts worth looking at.

 

[Silvercrystal]

It's great to see a mod acknowledge the issue.

The sooner a mod starts giving people notice that it's unacceptable, the easier the job will be.

It would have been MUCH easier if someone had put a foot down back when it was mostly just one guy doing it -- now it will be more effort, but if it's left alone then the effort will only increase over time.



Yeah, the ideal would be for those "first!" / "tftc" / "nice chapter" people to become better posters by actually saying something about whatever they just read.

I don't want them to quit the site, I want them to make posts worth looking at.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, tftc is barely just on topic (I have repeatedly said I'd be happier if they just used the like button like a normal person, and yes all you tftc posters I am calling you odd!). Would I love it of they stopped? Yes. Is it currently against the rules? No.
What is against the rules and I hammer every time I see it are "First" posts and the spam they generate.

 

[Vanbers]

To be fair, tftc is barely just on topic (I have repeatedly said I'd be happier if they just used the like button like a normal person, and yes all you tftc posters I am calling you odd!). Would I love it of they stopped? Yes. Is it currently against the rules? No.
What is against the rules and I hammer every time I see it are "First" posts and the spam they generate.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much where I'm at tbh.

I'm more or less ambivalent to 'tftc', and they *are* still just barely within the rules, regardless of what people say, and until that changes, they shouldn't get bonked.

But "First" posters not only need to get hammered the fuck down as harshly as possible to the fullest extent of the rules but also reveal that an individual is *probably* too young to be on the site.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

Is it currently against the rules? No.

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On the other hand, there's no formal rule against double posting, but mods will still merge posts and give out warnings as it goes against forum etiquette...

 

[AztecCroc]

On the other hand, there's no formal rule against double posting, but mods will still merge posts and give out warnings as it goes against forum etiquette...

Click to shrink...

Not double posting is standard etiquette on basically all forums. The "tftc" issue is a thing more specifically centered on here and SB/SV.

 

[evildice]

To be fair, tftc is barely just on topic (I have repeatedly said I'd be happier if they just used the like button like a normal person, and yes all you tftc posters I am calling you odd!). Would I love it of they stopped? Yes. Is it currently against the rules? No.
What is against the rules and I hammer every time I see it are "First" posts and the spam they generate.

Click to shrink...

Being on-topic or not is just one of the rules.

Another is "Play nice (2) Constructive criticism is not only welcome, but encouraged" -- and these low-content posts could be seen as discouraging constructive criticism by creating an environment where posters only see an ocean of formulaic non-critical approval.

Furthermore, the last line of the Rules post says that rules will be changed as needed.

If a pattern of behavior is creating an environment which is bad for authors or readers, then change the rule to discourage or prohibit that behavior.

 

[Shadowclonier]

I'm not sure there's a more meaningless post than "tftc". At least posting "lol" or "" as your entire comment likely carries a quote for what section of the chapter amused you.

 

[Silvercrystal]

Added a poll, lets see where it goes.

 

[MissileTeatime]

Added a poll, lets see where it goes.

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Running that poll in this thread is going to be biased. Indicative, even informative, sure. But definitely biased.

 

[Vanbers]

Running that poll in this thread is going to be biased. Indicative, even informative, sure. But definitely biased.

Click to shrink...

This. I'm firmly in the "I don't care"/"Is wary that people would use this to discourage posts they don't like" camp, but doing it *here* is pretty clearly going to get mostly/all people that dislike them.

It's like polling an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting about whether alcohol is good or not. Or a classroom full of uninterested students as to whether homework should be a thing.

 

[snthsnth]

It's also reduced by whatever proportion of users even look at the Rules and Announcements forum. If there's enough traction and the mods/admins were up for it, maybe make a global announcement about a poll. Instead of just Yes/No/Whatever, add in options for the reason a user supports or disapproves of it.

 

[evildice]

add in options for the reason a user supports or disapproves of it.

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Can't we just use posts for that?

 

[snthsnth]

Can't we just use posts for that?

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If most users post their reasoning, the mods will have to parse through the posts and compile them. Say 20% of the userbase votes, that's around 800 voters. If very few people post, it'll skew the apparent thoughts of the userbase. Like if most of the posts are BAN but most of the votes are ALLOW.

I can think of several reasons someone would be pro-TFTC. A user may have crossover between them, but it's not as simple as the people who are annoyed by it.

The ALLOW opinion has: "It doesn't bother me so I'd like others to have the ability to TFTC." "I like getting TFTCs" "I feel my 'TFTC' adds more than a like." "It bumps my fic to the front page."

The BAN opinion is pretty straightforward: "It's spam that uselessly clogs up threads." "It bumps threads to the frontpage without adding discussion." Both of them are basically, "It's Spam".


The WHATEVER option: "It don't care so I'll accept the majority opinion."

I haven't seen any significantly different opinions here, though they may exist.

 

[seeing_octarine]

The ALLOW opinion has: "It doesn't bother me so I'd like others to have the ability to TFTC." "I like getting TFTCs" "I feel my 'TFTC' adds more than a like." "It bumps my fic to the front page."

Click to shrink...

Or in other words... I don't care, pro-spam, pro-spam, pro-spam.

Even when you actively tried to find some nuance, it still all boils down to a simple debate over whether or not to allow canned shoulder of pork and ham.