Star Wars! Spoilers Allowed So Beware!

[Cambrian]

And you're in this thread?!

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I had the major plot points of the movie spoiled for me by Reddit, and so many people have been shitting on it that my expectations are too low for me to care about being spoiled heh. Might not get to see it for weeks at this rate due to other shit going on in my life, and I can't help but participate in Star Wars discussions anyways xP

That said

Answer that hopefuly won't spoil it for you: There are a few scenes where some of the "good guys" blow themselves up (or attempt to, at least) to save the day.

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Thanks for explaining this, I was confused.

 

[cliffc999]

Anyway, I think one could also say that the movie played a lot with the core elements. Luke rushed off to save his friends against the advice of his masters and lost a hand.

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Yeah, but what Luke didn't do is fuck things up for other people. Luke sacrificed his hand, but he still won. He gained the knowledge that Darth Vader was his father, and that on some level Vader wanted to ally with Luke against the Emperor, which ultimately led to his victory. Luke may not have done the smart thing, but he still did the right thing. Remember that another message of the original trilogy is that ultimately, Yoda was fucking wrong about a ton of shit. Such as 'your father can't be redeemed, you gots to kill him'. Good call there, midget.

Poe and Finn, on the other hand... yeah.

Also have you considered what would have happened if Luke hadn't gone to the rescue? Vader didn't really have time to notice last time on the Death Star, but a prolonged torture session would eventually reveal that Leia is Force-sensitive. At which point Vader takes her to the Emperor, she goes Sith, and the Dark Side wins forever. Luke can't hope to beat all three of them.

And don't think she wouldn't fall under those circumstances. Leia is the one who's always had a problem with anger, and Lord knows that being ditched by Luke would leave more than enough room for genuinely feeling betrayed that a manipulator far less skilled than Palpatine could work it.

(add) Seriously, you want an example of Yoda's epic lack of common sense -- 'Oh noes, if we lose Luke there goes the ball game.' 'No, there is another.' No shit there is, shorty, and she's the exact same person you just told Luke to abandon to Vader's un-mercy. If Luke doesn't rescue her you lose her anyway, so how does what you just said remotely make any sense?

Suffice it to say that while Yoda's great for teaching Force skills he sucks balls at everything else. Especially things like 'providing useful life advice' or 'planning to beat the Sith'.

(add) That's actually another difference, BTW. When Luke disobeyed orders, its because his orders were legitimately stupid.

So no, the comparision to TESB doesn't remotely fly for me. As I said before, at surface glance it looks the same, but when you look at it closer the theme and tone are totally different.

 

[Smuthunter]

Poe and Finn, on the other hand... yeah.

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Roughly half the point of the movie is "your heroes are flawed and sometimes make mistakes and fuck things up." That's just as true for the old heroes as it is for the new ones. If Poe and Finn hadn't fucked something up in this movie you'd probably be accusing the writers of shitting on the old heroes to make the new ones look better. I like this approach and I think it works much better, although Finn's particular screwup didn't have to take as much time as it did.

 

[cliffc999]

Roughly half the point of the movie is "your heroes are flawed and sometimes make mistakes and fuck things up." That's just as true for the old heroes as it is for the new ones.

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That comparision is not even remotely valid. The old heroes didn't make unforced errors, nor did they get a nontrivial chunk of the Rebel fleet blown up in the process.

Do you seriously expect that the next movie will have any real consequences land on Finn and Poe for what they did? Of course not. Actually getting court-martialled for what they pulled would make them unavailable for continued use in the movie, because at minimum they'd be kicked out of the Resistance. So the plot has to let them skate, because they're main characters. Luke can at least say 'The only person my stupidity got hurt was me, and oh, by the way, I saved everybody but Han and even he at least isn't in Imperial custody. Also, Yoda doesn't actually have the authority to give me military orders. Also, the orders I was given were arguably illegal and definitely the worst plan ever.'

Poe and Finn? Let's see...through their recklessness and direct disobedience to orders -- orders which were not Yoda level stupid -- they got a whole chunk of their buddies killed and may well have lost a battle that could have been won. But they'll still be kept on active duty, because movie, when any soldier who did something like that in real life would be lucky if all he got was a dishonorable discharge. Fuck, Poe basically got promoted.

Which is the exact opposite of the message 'your heroes are flawed sometimes'. The message is instead 'The heroes are morally justified in doing anything they want, even things that would be potential death penalty offenses for normal people, because they're the heroes.' If i actually wanted that kind of message, I'd read Skysaber fan fiction.

If Poe and Finn hadn't fucked something up in this movie you'd probably be accusing the writers of shitting on the old heroes and worshipping the new ones.

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If your name is not Charles Xavier then you can't read my mind, and you shouldn't pretend that you can. And you can't insulate the movie from real criticisms by making up an alternate timeline full of criticisms about a movie that was never actually made.

 

[ultima333]

Roughly half the point of the movie is "your heroes are flawed and sometimes make mistakes and fuck things up." That's just as true for the old heroes as it is for the new ones. If Poe and Finn hadn't fucked something up in this movie you'd probably be accusing the writers of shitting on the old heroes to make the new ones look better. I like this approach and I think it works much better, although Finn's particular screwup didn't have to take as much time as it did.

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I'd be more receptive of it if they had done pretty much anything to redeem themselves.

Granted Finn at least tries to with the weird battering laser thing, so that's a start, and Po at least tried to help get out of a hopeless situation too. But I don't feel that's enough to really redeem their colossal fuckups. Maybe they'll get their chance in the next one? Idunno.


also re: light speed banzai attack, my problem with it is less it shitting on the lore of mechanics and more with 'well if that's possible it changes everything about space warfare and makes any sort of huge ship a liability along with rendering all the other planet killers pointless.'

overall too there are just so many glaring idiot balls everywhere with the entire space section . On both sides. From not telling Po the plan so he doesn't try and mutiny (like he just asked to know if there even as a plan but got fed teasing lines instead) to not sending like one or two ships a short micro jump ahead to not using all the damn fighters you still have to finish them off, instead of lazily waltzing after them for however ridiculously long it was.

 

[cliffc999]

I'll give a point that the plan would have probably worked better if Poe had been told what it is, but given that Poe was already leaking everything he was told across the entire fleet within five minutes of leaving the room, I can also see why his CO wouldn't trust him with all the classified information.

And this is the guy who's supposed to be the next Han Solo or the next Wedge? Man, when the scruffy nerf-herder smuggler is better at keeping a secret and dealing with authority figures than the Hero of the Resistance(tm), something is direly wrong. Even Lando can keep a damn secret, and (edit) can say 'Look, the only time I ever really went behind your back is when Darth Vader was forcing me to under threat of death, and before I actually enlisted.'.

 

[Smuthunter]

I'd be more receptive of it if they had done pretty much anything to redeem themselves.

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I feel that they did, so that's neither here nor there.

also re: light speed banzai attack, my problem with it is less it shitting on the lore of mechanics and more with 'well if that's possible it changes everything about space warfare and makes any sort of huge ship a liability along with rendering all the other planet killers pointless.'

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Same difference. Also, Tarkin mentions something to the effect that hyperdrives are all WMDs in the right circumstances, so that's been a feature of the Expanded Universe for a while. Presumably there are other features such as cost or size or whatever that make it unfeasible in most situations. Like I said, it doesn't matter either way because it's a fucking awesome sequence and nobody is going to rain on that parade if I have anything to say about it.

overall too there are just so many glaring idiot balls everywhere with the entire space section . On both sides. From not telling Po the plan so he doesn't try and mutiny (like he just asked to know if there even as a plan but got fed teasing lines instead) to not sending like one or two ships a short micro jump ahead to not using all the damn fighters you still have to finish them off, instead of lazily waltzing after them for however ridiculously long it was.

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In order:

1) Recall that the Order had just tracked the Resistance through hyperspace, which means there's a non-trivial chance that there's a spy on board. Keeping the plan under wraps until it's ready to move makes more sense than just spewing it to anyone who asks about it. I think it's also part of the point that what's-her-name just isn't a very charismatic leader. I spent half the movie convinced she was a mole for the First Order because she made me think more of an insincere politician trying to save her own skin than a Mon Mothma or an Admiral Ackbar.

2) Recall that Snoke was commanding the fleet during the entire chase sequence and Snoke is a cackling Sith wannabe. I don't think it's a plot hole, it's Snoke wanting the rebels to have a slow and miserable death because he's so absolutely confident that they can't possibly escape him. But we're also shown that he's not as smart as he thinks he is -- that's how he got lightsabered in half by his own apprentice. Who, it should be noted, immediately turns around and goes "What? Fight Luke in a lightsaber duel? Fuck that and nuke him with lasers, it's the only way to be sure."

 

[TehChron]

One of the major problems with The Last Jedi's plot decisions is that they are carried out in the story as if they were things so astronomically clever that no one in tens of thousands of years of galactic conflict would ever have tried because its just so obvious

It's almost like there's some underpinning of why shit like suicide runs with ludicrously high energy yield FTL engines isn't dont on a regular basis

Something like, Iunno, rules of war?

The idea that if *one* person does it

Then suddenly the other side has an excuse to escalate?

You guys do know that surrendering just to get your enemy to lower their guards for maximum carnage is SoP for terrorists, right? It's an especially favored tactic among suicide bombers, alongside using children.

God, even setting aside the stuff with Yoda, the idea that they actually went that far pisses me off something disgustingly fierce.

 

[Gaemnomut]

Poe and Finn, on the other hand... yeah.

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As far as they knew it was their only chance and the logical thing to do. And it did almost work. So you may fault the movie for that if at all, but not really the character.

It's hard for me to argue this point though, because it ties into one of the legitimate complaints I have about the movie. The whole casino planet arc could have been handled better. From the setup to what the characters do, it ... isn't perfect, I'll admit that.

I'm glad it wasn't a straight up echo of the 5th episode, that would have been boring and lame (I think others might agree given how much flack they got because they reused the whole 'destroy doomsday weapon plot' in ep 7.), but they might have gone a little too far in their attempt to subvert expectations.

Yoda was fucking wrong about a ton of shit.

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I will say this though. You earlier complained that the movie explored the concept that the Jedi the OT gloryfied had flaws/that their legend might not have been entirely deserved. But then you go on to post an entire paragraph about how Yoda and Ben gave bad advice/foolish orders.

Also, I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but our whole discussion reminds me a lot of this:

Spoiler

And yes, I'm including myself and my opinion in that assessment.

 

[Cambrian]

Also, I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but our whole discussion reminds me a lot of this:

Spoiler

And yes, I'm including myself and my opinion in that assessment.

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To be fair, the whole internet reminds me of that video. Probably because its literally opinions on the internet

 

[cliffc999]

I will say this though. You earlier complained that the movie explored the concept that the Jedi the OT gloryfied had flaws/that their legend might not have been entirely deserved. But then you go on to post an entire paragraph about how Yoda and Ben gave bad advice/foolish orders.

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So you're saying that my judgement is less reliable because I am demonstrably capable of acknowledging the flaws even in something I greatly like? That makes absolutely no sense. If I can point out where even the characters I like were mistaken, then clearly I am being more objective than average.

Also, there's a difference between 'the mentor gives well-intentioned but ultimately bad advice to the hero and the hero shows his character growth by having the cojones to reject it and do what is right anyway', and 'after the hero grows up to become the mentor, and remember that this is the hero whose entire fucking character arc is defined by his refusal to give up on Darth fucking Vader as irredeemable, then goes on to ultimately destroy everything he ever tried to build by being so lacking in faith he was seriously nerving himself up to pre-emptively murder his own nephew on the possibility the kid might go Sith.' That's total OOC bullshit that if it had occurred in a fanfic would have had us hitting alt-F4 right on the spot. There's a difference between a mistake and a disaster. Yoda might have been wrong but Luke was what the fuck I don't even.

The entire point of the Bespin sequence is that Luke doesn't give up on people. You have to be the ultimate fucking walking sack of evil a la Palpatine before he'll do that. But the problem with TLJ's arc is that its set up by the old characters (Luke especially) forgetting everything they ever learned, the core things that make them who they are. (add) For that matter, Yoda's mistake in TESB is the same mistake he made with Anakin in the prequels, so its not like OOC comes in here either.

I mean... Luke is seriously considering pre-emptive murder of his own nephew? And after that, Luke Skywalker then gives up and wanders off into space and abandons a galaxy to the Sith instead of, oh, looking up Snoke, or trying to make amends to Ben? Luke Skywalker, the champion of "there is still good in him" and the guy who (literally) made the Hero With No Fear look like a whiny quitter? What's next, Palpatine rising from the dead and opening an animal shelter and teaching kindergarten?

And then there's the whole 'everything the character spent the first six movies dying and bleeding to accomplish is ultimately not there'. Look at the galaxy they've made! The New Republic is a paper tiger that falls apart at the first touch, the stormtrooper-loving fascists control everything again, and the galactic political scene in general is apparently composed of apathetic war profiteers who see no real difference between the Resistance and the First Order. According to the sequel trilogy so far, The Alliance to Restore the Republic spent twenty-three years bleeding out to accomplish pretty much nothing in the long run.

Jesus Christ, you know shit's fucked up when you can say that things would probably be better off in the long run if Luke actually had taken Vader up on his offer on Bespin. /only partly sarcasm

Honestly, at this point I would rather have the old EU back. At least their New Republic took a century to fall apart and had to be hit with multiple Outside Context Problems, an undead Palpatine, and enough bullshit superweapons to choke the Star Forge. And considering that means the stupid Yuuzhan 'You have got to be kidding' Vong and Darth 'Are you shitting me' Krayt would be canon again, that kinda underlines how little I like the current continuity.

 

[Gaemnomut]

So you're saying that my judgement is less reliable because I am demonstrably capable of acknowledging the flaws even in something I greatly like?

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First you complain that the Jedi where not held up to be the shiny beacons of perfection they were supposed to be, then you post an entire paragraph about how Kenoby and Yoda were giving "legitimately stupid" orders.

Spoiler

The new trilogy, OTOH... its like Bizarro Rogue One. The surface imagery, the visuals and theatricals, are all classic Star Wars... but the message is 'everything you liked about the original movie is nonsense. The Jedi are ineffectual suck, the dashing rogue just fucks everything up, the ex-Imperial trying to redeem is selfish and stupid, the galaxy doesn't want the heroes to save it, and you have to grow up and stop believing in all that childish nonsense'.

Dear new trilogy. Fuck. You. If it comes down to a choice of what I want to stop believing in, I'll stop believing you fucking exist. Fuck, the prequels didn't get me to this damn point, but you did! Great job, Disney.

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Remember that another message of the original trilogy is that ultimately, Yoda was fucking wrong about a ton of shit. Such as 'your father can't be redeemed, you gots to kill him'. Good call there, midget.

Also have you considered what would have happened if Luke hadn't gone to the rescue? Vader didn't really have time to notice last time on the Death Star, but a prolonged torture session would eventually reveal that Leia is Force-sensitive. At which point Vader takes her to the Emperor, she goes Sith, and the Dark Side wins forever. Luke can't hope to beat all three of them.

And don't think she wouldn't fall under those circumstances. Leia is the one who's always had a problem with anger, and Lord knows that being ditched by Luke would leave more than enough room for genuinely feeling betrayed that a manipulator far less skilled than Palpatine could work it.

(add) Seriously, you want an example of Yoda's epic lack of common sense -- 'Oh noes, if we lose Luke there goes the ball game.' 'No, there is another.' No shit there is, shorty, and she's the exact same person you just told Luke to abandon to Vader's un-mercy. If Luke doesn't rescue her you lose her anyway, so how does what you just said remotely make any sense?

Suffice it to say that while Yoda's great for teaching Force skills he sucks balls at everything else. Especially things like 'providing useful life advice' or 'planning to beat the Sith'.

(add) That's actually another difference, BTW. When Luke disobeyed orders, its because his orders were legitimately stupid

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What is it? Is Luke right to doubt that the Jedi were as perfect as the legend makes them out to be or not?

I mean... Luke is seriously considering pre-emptive murder of his own nephew?

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People change as they grow older. Resolve weakens, ideals may waver.
Also, luke didn't seriously plan on killing Ben, his words were: (paraphrasing a bit)
"I considered killing him only for a moment. It was a fleeting thought, and I was ashamed of it immediatly, but it was there and Kylo sensed it"

One moment of weakness, in the face of a boy who was threatening to destroy everything he had built, that's forgivable imho. Especially since he was already one of the most powerful force users around, and Ben was shaping up to be even more powerful than him. Having him as yet another powerful darksider would have been a catastrophy. On the other hand, Ben looking up, sensing Luke had thought of murdering him, and going berserk is understandable as well.

And it's not like Luke just decided one day to throw all his ideals over board, he admitted to how his actions had been wrong and that he was ashamed of them, and was clearly haunted by how he failed Ben years later. He didn't only say the Jedi's legend might have been undeserved, he said his own was undeserved as well.

The New Republic is a paper tiger that falls apart at the first touch

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I share some of the problems about the republic. I would have prefered it if the first order had grown slower, and the resistance had fought them on a more even footing for longer (would have made their eventual defeat sting all the more), and I seriously want to know where the first order is getting their funding.
But if the scene from tfa is to be believed then that first touch you mentioned did shatter the five central planets off of which the republic was based, and a good chunk of their fleet.
I don't know where the first order is getting their money from, but it is shown that the are exceptionally well funded, and well armed, so it's not that unbelievable that they could take over enough vital sectors in a short timespan to effectively control the galaxy.

 

[cliffc999]

First you complain that the Jedi where not held up to be the shiny beacons of perfection they were supposed to be

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No, I didn't. I complained that Luke Skywalker became something completely opposite from what he was, something hideously out of character, for no apparent reason other than 'It was in the script'. That's not demanding perfection, that's only demanding basic sanity.

What is it? Is Luke right to doubt that the Jedi were as perfect as the legend makes them out to be or not?

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Its 'neither of the above'. I don't need to think the Jedi were perfect in order to think that TLJ was a lousy movie. You're trying to win the argument by pretending that there's only a choice between the two extremes when the actual truth is somewhere more towards the middle. Its called the fallacy of the false dichotomy, and its not gonna work.

And fuck, there's an entire prequel trilogy devoted to showing exactly how perfect the Jedi were not, so no Star Wars fan has seriously tried to push 'the Jedi knew everything!' for at least fifteen years.

People change as they grow older. Resolve weakens, ideals may waver.

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And Captain America can become a Nazi... oh wait, we thought that was horseshit too.

Seriously, 'Luke is willing to kill his own nephew' is right down there with Hydra Cap as far as nauseating retcon OOC bullshit goes, and at least Hydra Cap had the excuse of an actual goddamn time machine being involved.

So, no. I don't like it, I don't have to like it, and I see absolutely nothing inconsistent with me not liking it but still being able to acknowledge when the old Jedi order was also making a mistake.

 

[Gaemnomut]

No, I didn't. I complained that Luke Skywalker became something completely opposite from what he was, something hideously out of character, for no apparent reason other than 'It was in the script'.

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I literally quoted you saying that you didn't like how the movie made the jedi out to be ineffectual. Also, Luke used the dark side in anger and hate in his final battle against Vader. Rewatching that it looked to me that if he hadn't snapped out of it after seeing how Vader had a robotic arm just like him he would have murdered the shit out of him. That shows that even the rightous Luke Skywalker can have a moment of weakness. But ok fine, if you think they shouldn't have had luke waver in his convictions that is your right. As you said, you don't have to like the movie.

 

[cliffc999]

I literally quoted you saying that you didn't like how the movie made the jedi out to be ineffectual.

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Yes, and? If you think 'ineffectual' means the same thing as 'not totally perfect' then you don't know the meaning of the word. Plus, even at his most mistaken still Yoda gets a lasting achievement that isn't taken away later; he successfully trains Luke to use the Force, and its that training that helps Luke pull out the win. Yoda can at least say that while he wasn't perfect, he wasn't nothing.

I can entirely handle the idea that the Jedi Order didn't know everything and needed some reforming. But reforming the Jedi Order is what Luke was supposed to be doing.

But as is, Luke died having achieved zero reforming of Jedi anything. Luke's entire life post-Endor is ultimately shown to be a failure and a waste. Shit, given that the Sith seem to crawl out of fucking nowhere and take over the entire galaxy again despite Luke having personally presided over the death of both the master and the apprentice, arguably even Luke's original trilogy efforts sometimes feel like 'why did he even bother?'. Gee, thanks sequels.

I get that the sequels are not Luke's story, that he's gone from being the hero to being the mentor to the hero. But here's the thing. Most storytellers can manage a passing of the torch to a younger generation without having to retcon that the older generation was basically useless. Aragorn isn't made a lesser hero because he didn't found Gondor, Frodo isn't made a lesser hero by Bilbo having found the Ring for him to inherit, and Rey wouldn't have been made a lesser heroine by Luke actually enjoying some kind of success.

That shows that even the rightous Luke Skywalker can have a moment of weakness.

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Luke's motivation in going ripshit on Vader was 'I won't let him hurt my sister!' Luke's motivation in about to shiv Kylo was 'If somebody might be going to the Dark Side, then they gots to die!'

One of those things is Luke Skywalker getting too passionate about protecting his family, the other one is Luke Skywalker being willing to murder his own family. One of them is Luke getting too caught up in fighting a guy who already has his own lightsaber out and swinging, the other one is Luke being willing to cut a dude's throat in their sleep. One of them is a split-second decision made in hot blood, the other is premeditated in cold blood. They aren't remotely the same.

(add) Also, when Luke went off on Vader he had Palpatine standing right there. But Luke did the Kylo thing entirely on his own. There's a slight difference between having a momentary Dark Side temptation when the champion Dark Side mindfucker of all galactic history is standing right there trying to twist your brain, and having the idea of 'I should stab my nephew! Just as a precaution!' come to you completely of your own free will.

 

[Cambrian]

Heh, just saw this in the sidebar of our front page, made me laugh xD

The mixed reaction to The Last Jedi in a nut shell~

 

[Nekraa]

What's next, Palpatine rising from the dead and opening an animal shelter and teaching kindergarten?

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*looks up*

Maybe he became part of an online community to write porn?

 

[chokwerman]

From what I have glanced from this thread and the newer posts it seems like we are devolving into a flame war.
...So, fresh new topic.
As for my opinion about the newer generation of Star Wars, it seems like the story is a bit rushed.

The new mastermind Supreme Leader Snoke has never appeared in any of the previous Star Wars media, so the plot and the backstory of the newer movies is nonsensical to me.
A new villain suddenly appearing in the Star Wars franchise doesn't sit right with me.

Most of the backstories of the main characters were also strange. A stormtrooper (Finn) suddenly defecting from the army from seeing bloodshed after months of training as a soldier? A force-adept (Rey) gaining strength in the Force so fast that she could match Kylo Ren on combat? It seems that the plot of the newer movies are incomplete and too rushed.

I know that the backstories have been released in the form of books, comics, and games, but I wish the movies expanded on the plot so that people who only watch the movie would understand.

What do you think?

 

[Smuthunter]

The new mastermind Supreme Leader Snoke has never appeared in any of the previous Star Wars media, so the plot and the backstory of the newer movies is nonsensical to me.
A new villain suddenly appearing in the Star Wars franchise doesn't sit right with me.

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I will give this a partial agreement. One of the things that doesn't make sense to me, as a reader who used to be a big follower of Legends canon, is where exactly did the First Order get all their resources from? It made perfect sense for the Empire to be able to build a Death Star or two because they ruled most of the galaxy and could plunder it for resources with impunity, but the First Order reads more like a tiny terrorist group which is just making their big debut on the galactic stage and yet they have a bigger and better Death Star somehow? And their military is so much bigger than the New Republic's that they can conquer most of the galaxy during TLJ, which is, like, a month at most after TFA? What?

I'm sure there's an explanation for this somewhere in the new lore, I just haven't seen it yet. It would help if I could see a star map showing what the New Republic's territory looks like, where the Imperial Remnant is, etc. Something that could give me some idea of the scope of the Order's power.

 

[Minion #Q]

Just saw the movie a little while ago and Yoda's appearance aka not a blue force ghost make me think of something. I really feel that it should have been revealed that Luke had been a force ghost the whole time. If after the lightsaber stab rather then vanishing from another planet. Luke stepped out of the shadows to speak with Rey and revealed that Kylo Ren had killed him years ago when he had destroyed the academy.

I told you that Kylo Ren had thought he had killed me, I merely didn't say that he had succeeded. There is no death only the force.

Tie in Luke freaking out when Rei found the pit ahead of schedule by bringing in the dagobah cave test to face darkness and how it was a test that Luke failed when he went in before he was ready and was told not to bring his lightsaber only to attack himself.

Make Ben's fall be because he tried a similar test before he was ready and have it all go wrong when Luke decided to go in after him because he felt responsible and wanted to keep Ben safe. Only to not remove his lightsaber. And have the moment of doubt needed to bring it all down that only mattered because the lightsaber woke Ben in time to feel it.

I told you that i was the one at fault for Ben's fall. That for just a moment I believed that he had already fallen when nothing had been decided. Snoke told you that the conflict you sensed in Kylo came from him. It is interesting that we both died in such a way. I in feeling darkness drove him to darkness; and Snoke in creating conflict brought back the light.

Edit now there is balence once more, the only question is what will you do.

 

[MizMahem]

I was asked to rant about it, so I will. I'm not one for numeric scores, I saw the movie and didn't like it, and probably wouldn't recommend it to others (though most of the people who care about my opinion have already sceen it). I've got a lot to unpack about it, so I'll divide it up into sections.

Stuff I Didn't Like, but I Can Forgive
The way this movie really poops on the the 'Happy Ending' of Return of the Jedi.
In fact, it makes the very title of that movie a lie. The Jedi didn't "Return" at all as is it turns out. (Some of this is also from TFA)

• Luke fails to restore the Jedi Order. All his students are either dead or turned to the dark-side.
• Leia fails to restore the Republic, in fact she sees it litteraly blown apart before her eyes.
• Han and Leia's relationship falls apart. He is murdered by his own son.

And now in this movie, it is revealed that the reason all this shit happened, is that Luke Skywalker, the man who found the good in his father, the most evil man in the galaxy (or #2) and a child murderer. Had a 'fleeting thought' where he thought the best course of action was to muder the teenage son of his best friend, his nephew, in his sleep. What kind of psychopath thinks these things! 'Not my Luke' The movie tells us that he senses darkness in him (and plays some noises). But some serious show not tell was needed here if you want me to buy into this plot line. Afterwards he follows the example of Yoda and Ben and goes into hiding.

Buuuuuut I can forgive this. It's a different story and they need to move the old characters out of the way somehow. I don't like it. But I can understand and overlook it.

The way this movie throws out a lot of the seeds TFA planted
So the Force Awakens planted a lot of seeds. Who is Snoke? The nights of Ren. The mystery of Rei's origins. Then this movie pretty much throws them out. Snoke's backstory... not explained. The Knights of Ren? = Sir not appearing in this film. Rei's origins = she's a nobody.

Honestly, I am actually mostly okay with this. I didn't particularly like The Force Awakens, so I didn't really have a lot invested in its plot points. Buuuut it would have been nice to have some acknowledgement of them.

Luke's Death
I thought it was a stupid and anti-heroic way for him to go out. But well I guess they got to get him out somehow. (I'm also pissed at Minion #Q for expousing my "what if Luke was dead the whole time theory before I could get to it!)

Stuff I thought was Stupid
The movie had a lot of moments that I thought were just well stupid, or put more politely, "in elegantly handled."

The movies constant need to subvert the narrative, to the point where somethings stop making sense.
Honestly, this was a big one for me, and I guess this is a point on which opinions can honestly differ, but I hold to this strongly. Fundamentally I believe Star Wars (or at least a 'main line' Star Wars movie) is not a narrative that needs to be/should be subverted. Star Wars (to me) isn't a film about nuance or some kind of reflection of reality. It is, essentially, a Fantasy Story. Good and Evil. Black and White. Big picture heroics and stuff. It's not that I'm against subverting narratives, far from it, but I don't think it needs to happen in Star Wars.

But the movie is big on this, and specifically on subverting the Star Wars heroic narritive. Poe isn't a hero when he blows up the dreadnaught, he is a hot-shot who just got a lot of people killed. Fin's and Rose's million to one plan to take down the tracking thing fails because such plans normally would. And referencing the above, Luke isn't a hero (anymore?) he's a hermit coward. Even the first order isn't really and evil empire, they are led by a bunch of baffons and blow hards. Yes, obviously all those things happen in real life, but again, Star Wars isn't/shouldn't be a movie about 'real life' it's a movie about Big Picture heroics. When our hero's fail, it should be due to epic, big reasons.

(Credit where credit is due, I thought Snokes death was the one point where the subversion worked, probably because he failed for a big epic reason... epic arrogance).

It also can't even keep its subverting straight. Rose tells Fin he shouldn't sacrifice himself for his friends... just a couple scenes after purple hair just did the exact same thing! Plus... like maybe I missed it, but they didn't seem to have any guns on those speeders, so I'm not sure what other plan they had besides ramming to take out death-laser-gun.

The Movies Theme is not well handled.
Obviously a big theme of this movie was "people learn best from failure" but it's pretty ham-handed and inelligent on shoving this down our throat. But honestly, I think the whole idea of a character "learning" is missing a point in a Fantasy movie like this. When a character grows or develops in a Fantasy Movie, its not about "learning" it's about discovery. The difference is that learning implies that the character decides that some old aspect of their character was wrong and is refuted. Where as discover is just the character being revealed to have another aspect of their character. Han Solo doesn't learn to trust in others, that was always in him, he just discovered or decided to bring it to the front. Darth Vader didn't just like finally found out "oh shit, evil is evil!" he always had good in him, it is just brought out. In other words, in an 'Epic Movie' character growth isn't about the character changing it's about the character developing.

But more then that, as I said before, failures should be for Epic reasons. When Luke fails in Empire (he gest his ass kicked and his hand cut off), it's because of an Epic character trait of his, he isn't willing to let his friends die. But this trait isn't refuted in the movie, it's reinforced (Luke goes back to save Han in the next film!). When Han fails in Empire it's because a friend he trusted betrays him. But again, this trait isn't refuted, it's reinforced in the film, as Han's other new friend risks his life to save him. And of course the other Epic reason they fail is because the Empire is an Epic villan. Vast and powerful. The failures in this film are all (IMO) due to character traits that are being refuted/subverted in this film. "Don't be a hero" (Fin), "Follow Orders" (Poe), "Million to one plans are stupid." And never because of the active actions of the villans. Which brings me to reason 3 I hated.

The First Order are Idiots
To have Epic Heros, you need Epic Villans. But the First Order isn't Epic, unless you mean Epicly stupid. The movie goes out of its way to poop on them and how stupid they are in ways both explicit (like the opening scene) and implicit (they have this big ass fleet and can't chase down one ship). And yeah, it's fun to make fun of the bad guys. But here is the thing, if you make all your opponents into morons, then there is no triumph in beating them. Who takes joy in beatting a buffon? Hux is explicitly worthless. Is anyone going to really feel triumph when he gets his comeuppance? No, he'll still have killed countless billions and you'll be the one to blame for not stopping such a moron easier.

In particular, the Supremecy or whatever annoyed me as well. It's just pointlessly big, just to characterise as the First Order as a bunch of dumbies with big toys and no brains. Every single aspect of the (stupid) chase scene could have been accomplished without the stupid supership. It didn't raise the stakes, it just made everything seem dumber to me.

The Whole Chase and Casino Planet Plot
Much e-ink has already been spilt on how these don't work. I'll just say I agree with most of them.

To much 'stuff'
Star Wars again is a movie about big ideas and things. But this movie is far to much about speicifc numbers and tactics and technobable and nonsense. We should never care about how much fuel is left in a ship. Or how many fighters or bombers the fleet has. Or ship speeds or whatever. This is all just 'stuff.' Star Wars shouldn't be a film about stuff, it should be a film about ideas. As a rule of thumb if you need to go over a sentance in explaining how some tech plays into some plot point? You've made a mistake.

An unfortunate side effect of this focus on stuff, is that when you have a big 'idea moment' like when puple hair rams the super-ship, now everyone is going to be wondering about the 'stuff' of it. Like 'why didn't they do that earlier.'

Things I hated
The Silliness
I'm not against humor, far from it. I'm not against sillyness either. But there is a time and a place. And this film far to commonly used sillyness out of place in a way that both took me out of the movie (because the sillyness was so obviously artifical and there for a laugh) and because it often was ill timed. A key example of this is when Po insults Hux at the beginning of the film. Not only is this undercutting the legitmacy of a character you should be building up. It also saps the tension out of what should be a very tense scene. The resistance's last base is about to be blowed up! Well then... time for a Joke! gah. No.

Space Flight Leia
My bro put it this way. "It is as if, Disney littearly reanimated her couprse and had her fly back into the movie." (Probably kept in just to... you guessed it, subvert our expectations again). I guess not even in Death can you escape the mouse.

Dismissive use of dialog
Yes. Hyperspace and Lighsabers are silly things in reality, but this film isn't reality, it's Star Wars. Calling them laser swords (repeatedly) and light speed (repatedly) seems insulting to the setting.

Things I Liked
I did like the whole Rei-Ren plot line, and the death of Snoke.
I liked that it covered the same ground as Empire, without hitting the exact same beats.
Some of the cinematography (hyperspace ram), Salt-Flat planet, was on point.

 

[StreamingViking]

I feel like I'm the only person on the internet that didn't hate the Casino, and i felt like it played well into what Yoda said about failure. Did go on for a bit too long maybe, but it didn't take me out of the movie and I liked Roses character. Though the entire thing was worth it just to see Del Toro act in a Star Wars movie.

 

[Megaolix]

Saw it today myself. Overall... It was fair. Could have been better, could have been worse.

I do fail they try too hard with 'Out with the old' theme... I mean, seriously? Luke just 'vanishing'? Anyway, it's probably an easy bet to say Leia die next movie.

Also, does this really have to be so... one-sided? I mean, where the fuck does this new Empire even get to amass all those ressources and built this much up? And of course, the republic can't mount an actual goddamn opposition. Dunno for you guys but when you call this Star -Wars-, I expect more than a one-sided massacre until the heroes save the day.

 

[Smuthunter]

Also, does this really have to be so... one-sided? I mean, where the fuck does this new Empire even get to amass all those ressources and built this much up? And of course, the republic can't mount an actual goddamn opposition. Dunno for you guys but when you call this Star -Wars-, I expect more than a one-sided massacre until the heroes save the day.

Click to shrink...

Lacking for more information about the new lore, I would suspect that the New Republic disbanded the military once the Empire ceased to be percieved as a threat. The Grand Army of the Republic only ever existed because Palps needed it to make his empire, so I could see people like Leia and Mon Mothma being eager to get rid of it as soon as they didn't need it anymore. That would explain why the Resistance seems to be the only military force the Republic has, they were apparently created specifically to oppose the First Order. And the Order seems to have gotten their resources by starting in the Imperial Remnant and then expanding backwards into the Unknown Regions, where their supply lines can't be easily tracked.

Might not make the result more satisfying if you wanted the Republic to put up more of a fight, but there is a plausible explanation.

 

[Megaolix]

Might not make the result more satisfying if you wanted the Republic to put up more of a fight, but there is a plausible explanation.

Click to shrink...

Honestly does not make much sense to keep the peace if there are no forces that would stop possible pirates, slave traders and the like.

 

[cliffc999]

And while the Old Republic needed to create a standing army for the Clone Wars, it always had a Navy. Antipiracy patrol and dealing with would-be Outer Rim warlords is a perennial need.

 

[Smuthunter]

Honestly does not make much sense to keep the peace if there are no forces that would stop possible pirates, slave traders and the like.

Click to shrink...

My understanding was that that was up to planetary militias and other local forces. Cor-Sec being a good example, for instance.

 

[ultima333]

My understanding was that that was up to planetary militias and other local forces. Cor-Sec being a good example, for instance.

Click to shrink...

Yes, because that's a great way to keep a republic together, encourage isolationism by having next to no benefits for actually being a member of it.

 

[BlackHadou]

Whelp. Seen it now. My preliminary thoughts, likely including knee jerks and all:-

• Again, the technology appears to have gone backwards. Where are the Y-Wings and B-Wings, you know, the signature bombing craft in Star Wars. 90% of the problems in the opening could have been avoided by simply carrying the right ships to perform your bombing runs, instead of giant bits of paper mache that Tie Fighters blow apart like a light wind. This repeats in the final battle; the shit are these dinky things? The Rebellion stocked Snowspeeders precisely for these kinds of engagements. The final battle honestly has even less of a excuse then the other engagements; they are even using old Rebel tech for the battle.
• The first... oh, twenty minutes and last half an hour or so feel like they were made by a different director entirely then the rest of the film.
• Leia was overutilised for a character whose actor is dead. Especially since they felt the need to kill off the entire resistance leadership (including Admiral Ackbar, who was a logical de facto replacement for Leia), introduce a admiral who otherwise did not exist, is not mentioned prior to her appearance and is not mentioned after her death. Heck, you could cut her from the movie entirely and use Leia for her scenes and it would not meaningfully change the plot.
• The entire middle of the movie is literally a B-reel plot that could have been solved by Poe and the Admiral actually acting like they know what their jobs are. The entire poor communication kills plot line is neutered by the fact that everyone involved should know better.
• ... There is not enough words on the planet to state how misused Luke was. The Luke that appears in this movie and the Luke in the original trilogy only seem like they are the same character during his last five minutes on film.
• Likewise, I honestly don't have words for whatever the hell Yoda was doing in this movie.

Long and short of it, the entire film badly needs to see a editor. It doesn't even feel like I watched one continuous movie, but rather three movies stapled onto each other. However, I will give credit where it's due; Rey's actor did significantly better this time selling her role, she plays the strong willed student quite well.

 

[Azerick]

Hey did we have an explanation for how Leia flew back into the ship?
Because that kind of mystified me and my friend when we were watching it so I'm wondering if we missed anything