Exalted 3E Discussion

[Valette-Serafina]

I just found the description of the Death Ray spell.

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The what.


It kills cities, right? Something like that?

How about we all stop arguing, and see how it turns out.

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While I do believe that discussion should remain calm, "stop arguing" is a rather silly thing to do in a dicussion thread.
We hold different opinions, and so we argue. That's what the thread is for?

 

[tehelgee]

The what.


It kills cities, right? Something like that?

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Well, if you could maintain it long enough, probably.

While I do believe that discussion should remain calm, "stop arguing" is a rather silly thing to do in a dicussion thread.
We hold different opinions, and so we argue. That's what the thread is for?

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I've seen quite a bit of bitching since the corebook leak in quite a few places, and on QQ it's mostly been Darkened. All they see to care about is harping on what's bad about it. They also don't try to ever suggest anything to fix what they perceive as bad, they just bitch constantly about it. Discussion is all well and good, but the endless negativity gets on my nerves.

 

[Smuthunter]

The what.


It kills cities, right? Something like that?

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That's Rain of Doom. Death Ray is more anti-army, anti-fleet, or anti-behemoth. On second reading it's a giant cutting laser rather than a Dragon Slave, and you can sweep it across multiple targets if you can power it for multiple turns. Pretty kickass.

 

[Plotvitalnpc]

That's Rain of Doom. Death Ray is more anti-army, anti-fleet, or anti-behemoth. On second reading it's a giant cutting laser rather than a Dragon Slave, and you can sweep it across multiple targets if you can power it for multiple turns. Pretty kickass.

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The name sucks, though.

 

[Nekraa]

Death Ray?

That's no good name for an Exalted spell! :<

It should be named something like "Spear of Radient Light" or something like that.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Well, if you could maintain it long enough, probably.

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Ah, good.

I've seen quite a bit of bitching since the corebook leak in quite a few places, and on QQ it's mostly been Darkened. All they see to care about is harping on what's bad about it. They also don't try to ever suggest anything to fix what they perceive as bad, they just bitch constantly about it. Discussion is all well and good, but the endless negativity gets on my nerves.

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How to put it...

Well. When E was announced, the Devs decided to abandon their attempts to fix Ex2. They made a lot of noise about making absolutely sure that 3rd worked smoothly, without needing hundreds of pages of errata.

They said that it'd be done by January. It wasn't, but hey, they need time right? There were massively underestimating, anyway. It's fine.
They said that it'd be done by March. It wasn't, and that's fine, they were fine-tuning the rules, so we don't need errata.
Wasn't done in 2014. Okay, fine, it'd best be good.

Now we have a leak, and it's not all fine. There are flaws, and if I'm going to fix the system myself, or look for community fixes, then I'll stick with Ex2. I know Ex2, I have played it for years. I want a good reason to switch, a new edition that has rules that make me remember the first time I opened Ex2.

Exalted has a character, a style. The rules are a part of that, how Charms are in-setting things and such.
The devs are already pushing with the setting changes, so they need to have a system that absolutely works, smoothly with a minimum of book-keeping, fast and versitile.

From what I can see, the system won't, and that's a thing I care very much about, because I backed the kickstarter more than a year and a half ago. I put a fair bit of my hope into the devs, and this leak is the first I've seen of what they've done with it.

I feel a little betrayed. This is the thread where I can talk about it, so I'll speak freely.

I'd Imagine that Darkened has their reasons for speaking, and I personally appreciate the thought that went into the essay on flaws in the crafting system. Not everyone has an eye for things like that, so it's good to have someone speak up.


It's not unreasonable for people to speak negatively about something they feel negative about, and there are reasons to feel negative about E.

Death Ray?

That's no good name for an Exalted spell! :<

It should be named something like "Spear of Radient Light" or something like that.

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"Severing Blade of Sapphire"

 

[Smuthunter]

I think any talk about whether the system is flawed is premature until you sit down and play a few games of it. Everything before that is just a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Darkened]

I am simply giving an honest opinion.

You commented about the system in strong terms, at least one such comment seems straightforwardly false and is completely testable.

Whenever I ask you to back up your assertions with analysis, you've either changed the topic, the terms of discussion or just insulted me.

Honestly I don't care very much, but I'm not going to agree with you or ignore your responses in a discussion, when pretty much every argument you have is fallacious. If I'm pressing you it's because we're discussing a topic and pressing is what you do when someone responds as vaguely as you are.

If you don't want to be asked to defend your claims then don't post them in the first place.



On the whole, I wanted to like 3E. 2E was an infixable mess and I backed the kick starter with what little I could afford at the time.

But I'm not going to sit back and wax poetic about what generally seems to be a broken and nonfunctional piece of shit that has a few very good ideas tacked on.

If you have any evidence otherwise, please share. I want to be wrong here.

At present I'm mostly looking out for what can be home brewed back into a 2.75ish edition, because I like to create a micer experience for my table than 2e managed or 3e seems to.

But arguing about the system, theory crafting and looking for exploits is the bare minimum to actually run it, especially given the absurd number of charms.

 

[Smuthunter]

I don't recall insulting you at any point in this discussion. I presented a defense I found in another thread and asked your opinion on it. You gave it and while I respect your opinion I think you should at least try it out before deciding it's complete shit. You keep remarking on the number of charms for example, while ignoring that they cost about the same as they did in 2e so you'll probably have about the same number of them as you did before. A player doesn't need to track the effects of 900+ charms, he just needs to track the ones on his character sheet unless he's looking for what to buy next.

 

[Darkened]

Err, posting on phone, meant to quote Elgee at the top and didn't see that it hadn't shown up properly. Sorry.

 

[tehelgee]

But I'm not going to sit back and wax poetic about what generally seems to be a broken and nonfunctional piece of shit that has a few very good ideas tacked on.

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See, this is what I mean. Can't let a post go by without spewing negativity at it.

What happened was that time went by, you built up an idea of what E3 should be in your head, then you got all hurt and mad when it was different. Frankly, no system was ever gonna hold up to that kind of standard.

 

[Non-Euclidean]

Well. When E was announced, the Devs decided to abandon their attempts to fix Ex2. They made a lot of noise about making absolutely sure that 3rd worked smoothly, without needing hundreds of pages of errata.

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For those that don't know, more specifically Exalted 2nd edition had one developer. He signed off on some writers getting to due free material, including errata, but was not actually involved in it. Makes sense, all the word count for fixes not in books was profitless media. IE not sustainable.

They said that it'd be done by January. It wasn't, but hey, they need time right? There were massively underestimating, anyway. It's fine.

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Not true. Even before the announcement of EX3, Onyx Path said that their release dates, if they give them, are at best estimates due to the new business model.

They said that it'd be done by March. It wasn't, and that's fine, they were fine-tuning the rules, so we don't need errata.
Wasn't done in 2014. Okay, fine, it'd best be good.

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Rest of the folks, see above. Also btw for those that don't know. Part of the major delay was the man at the helm having a severe cancer scare.

I am going to wait and read the LEGAL copy of the book instead of being pond scum and pirating material personally before I make a decision. Forgive me for not trusting a fear mongerer and liar when they declared EX 3 broken on release.

BTW, just so people know. There is a contingent of bitter pissy Exalted fans, not that they
post on major places like RPG.net or the OP boards(odd huh). But they all scream how EX3 is doomed DOOMED! because it doesn't match THEIR vision. Funny that.

The developers are taking a big risk with the setting changes and with the system but I personally am ok with that, 2nd ed was broken and definition of insanity you know. So doing something different is important.

I am curious about the doom bot charm, but the charm as described here neither breaks no resurrection, no time travel.

 

[Smuthunter]

I am going to wait and read the LEGAL copy of the book instead of being pond scum and pirating material personally before I make a decision. Forgive me for not trusting a fear mongerer and liar when they declared EX 3 broken on release.

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Hi, you seem to be new here. Name-calling and slinging insults at people is generally not looked upon as the mark of a mature poster who should be taken seriously. Consider this a friendly warning.

 

[Darkened]

See, this is what I mean. Can't let a post go by without spewing negativity at it.

What happened was that time went by, you built up an idea of what E3 should be in your head, then you got all hurt and mad when it was different. Frankly, no system was ever gonna hold up to that kind of standard.

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Not really?

All I wanted was something decemtly balanced and fun to play while being accessible to homebrew. Greatness would be nice but mediocrity would be more than wonderful.

By all indications, tests, etc it seems to be none of those things.

If you think otherwise, then pleas.e give reasons to do so. Not only am I far better equipped to talk about what I think, but it's also a lot more boring to discuss than 3E.

Or I guess you can keep with the ad hominems instead of actually responding if that makes you sleep better at night.

 

[tehelgee]

-snip-

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What proof? In one sentence you say that it's impossible to tell what the meta of the game is going to be until its seen a lot of play, then you turn right around and demand proof from me that the meta is going to be this way or that.

You realized that even /tg/ is mostly positive about it, right? That should be telling you something.

 

[Darkened]

What proof? In one sentence you say that it's impossible to tell what the meta of the game is going to be until its seen a lot of play, then you turn right around and demand proof from me that the meta is going to be this way or that.

You realized that even /tg/ is mostly positive about it, right? That should be telling you something.

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You claimed it worked. Repeatedly. If you can show, insofar as it can be shown, how and why the meta works then please do, If you have no analysis on balance, then don't talk about balance or complain about others doing so.

As for specifics, there was a claim about craft you made, I asked for proof and proposed a test. You responded with a non-sequitur about white rooms, so I proposed a test put of the white room.

So far I have yet to see you put any evidence up about craft being more streamlined.

[QUOTE="Non-Euclidean, post: 218873]

I am going to wait and read the LEGAL copy of the book instead of being pond scum and pirating material personally before I make a decision. Forgive me for not trusting a fear mongerer and liar when they declared EX 3 broken on release.[/QUOTE]

So, you won't look at the data but anyone who has is automatically a liar?

You're more than entitled to avoid the leaks, that's praiseworthy even. I don't feel terribad about sneaking a peek at something I've already bought, but to each their own.

However, not looking means you also kinda can't actually say either way about anything here.

If I or anyone else in the thread did or didn't lie you couldn't possibly even know either way.

 

[Non-Euclidean]

Hi, you seem to be new here. Name-calling and slinging insults at people is generally not looked upon as the mark of a mature poster who should be taken seriously. Consider this a friendly warning.

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Friendly warning, if you condone IP theft then I really do not care what your opinion is because you've shown just what sort of person you are.

So, you won't look at the data but anyone who has is automatically a liar?

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I said what I was going to do. I am going to wait until the LEGAL copies are available, continue to talk to the actual playtesters and writers and form an opinion after reading the system and play testing it myself. If that sort of thing isn't good for you, well...it's a rather reasonable position so too bad on you. Again, if you are another person who condones IP theft you're showing what sort of person you are.

 

[Non-Euclidean]

See, this is what I mean. Can't let a post go by without spewing negativity at it.

What happened was that time went by, you built up an idea of what E3 should be in your head, then you got all hurt and mad when it was different. Frankly, no system was ever gonna hold up to that kind of standard.

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The pattern I've been seeing play out for over a year amongst a small but vocal subset basically boils down to. "How dare you not implement this idea I keep repeating over and over even though I was never promised this idea. How dare you(the development) team make MY Exalted."

 

[tehelgee]

So far I have yet to see you put any evidence up about craft being more streamlined.

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3e crafting is organized into very neat tiers - basic, major, superior, legendary. In 2e, you had to know what material you were gonna use, how many helpers you had, what kind of helpers you had, what kind of workshop you had, what rating of artifact you wanted to make, etc.

 

[Darkened]

Citation? Because I can easily point to a lot of the opposite in most current discussions:

"it's not the thematically I like but that's opinion. The mechanics have problems X Y and Z"

Also how would any of what you said be lying?

If people like thematics and the debs change those themes, why is it bad to have an opinion?

Entitled perhaps but not inherently wrong or illegitimate?

 

[tehelgee]

Citation? Because I can easily point to a lot of the opposite in most current discussions:

"it's not the thematically I like but that's opinion. The mechanics have problems X Y and Z"

Also how would any of what you said be lying?

If people like thematics and the debs change those themes, why is it bad to have an opinion?

Entitled perhaps but not inherently wrong or illegitimate?

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Who are you talking to? Me? Cause it doesn't sound like you were replying to my post.

 

[Smuthunter]

Friendly warning, if you condone IP theft then I really do not care what your opinion is because you've shown just what sort of person you are.

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More power to you then. But condoning IP theft isn't against board rules -- posting links to pirated stuff is, but nobody here is playing thought police. On the other hand, we do expect people to maintain at least a thin veneer of politeness and civility with each other. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the forum rules before you carry on with this subject, since it appears to be something you feel very strongly about.

 

[Darkened]

3e crafting is organized into very neat tiers - basic, major, superior, legendary. In 2e, you had to know what material you were gonna use, how many helpers you had, what kind of helpers you had, what kind of workshop you had, what rating of artifact you wanted to make, etc.

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You, err still need to know materials and rating.

Helpers were a flat, constant benefit, as was workshop. Write what you have down and done.

Each has been replaced with tens of charms that do the same thing in dramatically more complicated ways.

All of which interact with each other.

You still need to count hours of work on projects, but Now also need to track project slots, craft XP and terminus, and eventually number of iterations of unwinding gyre up per artifact rating.

The've taken away some constants, simplified timekeeping a bit and increased the number of operations done and variables by roughly an order of magnitude.

Who are you talking to? Me? Cause it doesn't sound like you were replying to my post.

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Euclidean sorry, quotes keep being tricky on my phone.

 

[tehelgee]

You, err still need to know materials and rating.

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So you do on ratings. I was going by N/A being flat 200 difficulty and assume the others were the same. I was wrong on that one. Material still doesn't matter, its not even mentioned.

Helpers were a flat, constant benefit, as was workshop. Write what you have down and done.

Each has been replaced with tens of charms that do the same thing in dramatically more complicated ways.

All of which interact with each other.

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I still say the Charms seem awkward to you because it's new. You've had, what, a decade to get familiar with 2e rules and rolls?

You still need to count hours of work on projects, but Now also need to track project slots, craft XP and terminus, and eventually number of iterations of unwinding gyre up per artifact rating.

The've taken away some constants, simplified timekeeping a bit and increased the number of operations done and variables by roughly an order of magnitude.

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Project slots are not difficult to track. Neither is craft xp. Terminus is 6 unless you're using charms(and frankly, 6 is too easy) to alter it.

Unwinding Gyre is wonky, I'll admit, and but it's not permanent. It only applies to the next artifact. If you make any other artifact, it ends. And you're falling into white room thinking here. No ST is going to let you have the time or resources to churn out unlimited artifacts.

You also need to roll a lot less successes in 3e. Artifact 5 under 3e rules is 100 difficulty. Artifact 5 under 2e rules is 250 difficulty.

 

[Darkened]

So you do on ratings. I was going by N/A being flat 200 difficulty and assume the others were the same. I was wrong on that one. Material still doesn't matter, its not even mentioned.

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Materials are mentioned briefly, they're just more diary and harder to ignore via wyld shaping everything.

I still say the Charms seem awkward to you because it's new. You've had, what, a decade to get familiar with 2e rules and rolls?

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There are a number of charms which synergize.

Using 6-7 charms, you can easily roll 5-6 times every craft roll.

Stuff like "reroll 6s and 10s" and "For every three of a kind, make one failed die a 10"

The number of discrete modifiers to the roll is simply far larger than the maximum possible cheese in 2E.

Or rather, I could put up the math for both systems and simply count the operations.

3E should have more and be less storable. (IE you did it once every time a number changed in 2E and wrote down your rolls, you cannot in 3E)

Unwinding Gyre is wonky, I'll admit, and but it's not permanent. It only applies to the next artifact. If you make any other artifact, it ends. And you're falling into white room thinking here. No ST is going to let you have the time or resources to churn out unlimited artifacts.

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It stacks with its prior effect if you use it again. Next artifact you use it again and again and again, decreasing successes needed each time without cap. It never wears off unless you choose not to use it once, in which case it resets.

It also tracks each artifact rating seperately, so you'd need a count for all 4 ratings.

 

[tehelgee]

It stacks with its prior effect if you use it again. Next artifact you use it again and again and again, decreasing successes needed each time without cap. It never wears off unless you choose not to use it once, in which case it resets.

It also tracks each artifact rating seperately, so you'd need a count for all 4 ratings.

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I'd say that to keep it going you had to keep crafting. Making a different artifact or taking a break should break the streak.

 

[kinglugia]

Why not just wait for the official release first before you guys start searching for flaws?

 

[Stroth]

Why not just wait for the official release first before you guys start searching for flaws?

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Because then we wouldn't be able to argue now. That's half the fun of a new edition.

 

[Smuthunter]

Why not just wait for the official release first before you guys start searching for flaws?

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That's like putting a big juicy steak in front of a starving wolverine and telling him to save it for later. Everyone has been chomping at the bit for this thing for more than two years now and now that it's out, anything that even looks like a flaw is going to get held up as portents of doom for the entire line. Holden and co are probably drinking themselves into a coma right now.

Upside, by the time the official release comes out people will already have picked out 3e's strengths and weaknesses and there'll be people who've played a few games ready to advise the newbies. Or at least presumably so. There has to be somebody out there who decided to run a game rather than just complaining without testing anything.

 

[Stroth]

Holden and co are probably drinking themselves into a coma right now.

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Or laughing their asses off and celebrating the free publicity.