swtoring
Know what you're doing yet?
- Joined
- May 22, 2024
- Messages
- 235
They do the same thing (aka. Help move cargo more effectively) but work on different principlesSky hooks are basically space elevators (basically is doing some lifting).
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They do the same thing (aka. Help move cargo more effectively) but work on different principlesSky hooks are basically space elevators (basically is doing some lifting).
Note that I am not trying to argue the MC is morally right, but rather that any assertion that he is monster, psychopath and/or sociopath is overblown or dissengenius. If he is guilty, then it's of a banal evil he is guilty for.
Pirates, not people.
You don't need to be a monster or psychopat or sociopath to complete disregard others lives. It might to evil. You could argue that it's evil, but it's completely banal form of evil. People are generally quite good at justifying their own immoral actions, especially when they can argue that the cause justifies the mean.
Also, let's not forget the situation they were captured under. They came to his home, his people to rob and likely enslave his people. Hard to feel sympathy and mercy when you reasonable belive that they would show you non. Hell the pirate didn't even bother to give them a ultimatum once they came into range.
Lastly these are pirates, professional criminals that lives of taking from others. Kind of hard to feel any sympathy for people who's reputation is one robbery, rape and ruin. They make their choices, and they reap what they sow.
Note that I am not trying to argue the MC is morally right, but rather that any assertion that he is monster, psychopath and/or sociopath is overblown or dissengenius. If he is guilty, then it's of a banal evil he is guilty for.
There is a reason why all irl governments have a permanently standing declaration of war on all pirates everywhere, and pirates are by law not considered human anymore (forget the official name of the term though). And it's the reasons you gave. So MC certainly shouldn't even feel bad, as irl we do worse things then that to pirates now. Russian sailors fed Somali pirates to sharks several years ago from what I remember (and everybody clapped at them for it).
Just what I needed a rubber ball siPlot twist. The whole story is in fact a SI about the rubber ball manipulating everyone and being in everyone's office. Like a sort of cognito hazard that replicates itself.
Check "rock falls , everyone dies" nice novel
Why are you so determined to try and paint the MC as a sociopath just because he doesn't react to torture by whining about how evil it is? At this point you're trying to say that torture under any circumstances is unilaterally evil and those who practice it are the same. In that case, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Anakin during the Clone Wars are all evil because of their collective Mind Trick attempt on Cad Bane, with Anaking suggesting they try it a second time when it's implied Cad Bane would be reduced to a vegetable. Or how about when Ahsoka was trapped on a ship with those Geonosian worm parasites and Poggle wouldn't reveal how to stop them?Right, as I said in my previous post - there are two explanations. Either he is completely oblivious and doesn't even have the historical background, media knowledge, or imagination to understand what is going on, or he is a psychopath.
Also, FYI - the phrase "banality of evil" was coined by Hannah Arendt, an author writing about Adolf Eichmann, one of the architects of the Holocaust. From that perspective things sort-of fit. The MC is similarly doing heinous things indirectly, although obviously not on the same scale, and his actions are not racially motivated.
(Although it later turned out that this banality and lack of imagination was all faked by Eichmann as part of his legal defense strategy.)
Why are you so determined to try and paint the MC as a sociopath just because he doesn't react to torture by whining about how evil it is?
At this point you're trying to say that torture under any circumstances is unilaterally evil and those who practice it are the same.
In that case, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Anakin during the Clone Wars are all evil because of their collective Mind Trick attempt on Cad Bane, with Anaking suggesting they try it a second time when it's implied Cad Bane would be reduced to a vegetable. Or how about when Ahsoka was trapped on a ship with those Geonosian worm parasites and Poggle wouldn't reveal how to stop them?
Right, as I said in my previous post - there are two explanations. Either he is completely oblivious and doesn't even have the historical background, media knowledge, or imagination to understand what is going on, or he is a psychopath.
Also, FYI - the phrase "banality of evil" was coined by Hannah Arendt, an author writing about Adolf Eichmann, one of the architects of the Holocaust. From that perspective things sort-of fit. The MC is similarly doing heinous things indirectly, although obviously not on the same scale, and his actions are not racially motivated.
(Although it later turned out that this banality and lack of imagination was all faked by Eichmann as part of his legal defense strategy.)
I wholly agree. Compartmentalization of one's own empathy is a thing for when they either do morally questionable things like inflicting pain on others. Hell, it's something soldiers in our own world are basically taught to do in order to function at their jobs. The Empire probably pushes it even harder, but you don't have to be a sociopath (or more accurately a psychopath) to ignore bad things happening to people around you. Honestly though, I think the guy arguing is just intentionally ignoring all that because he just wants to stir up a controversial opinion. It reminds me of a YouTube video about a guy arguing that the Demons of the setting weren't the bad guys and he was making blatantly inaccurate claims and assertions to try and make a point.I stand by my assertion that the common man/women are all capable of disassociate, compartmentalize, and justify their actions even if they know intellectually the full extent what is happening. There is no need to be a sociopath, if you simply believe they are unworthy of your sympathy.
If it was the MC that was doing the torturing personally and didn't feel a shred of remorse then you have a case to argue. But he didn't. He didn't see the torturing, even if he knew intellectually what was happening, he didn't read a report detailing the excruciating pain that was being inflicted. He didn't see the torture scared corpses either, I doubt he even saw the bodybags. I highly doubt he even saw the faces of the pirate before the where "interrogated" either, or that he was given their names. They are nameless presumably faceless pirates who reaped what they sowed.
Calling the MC a monster is subjective to your own moral structure, calling him a sociopath/psychopath is objectively questionable.
Also I know where the term "banality of evil" comes from. I will however admit that it being faked is news to me.
Part 1: That's an argumentative ultimatum. You're saying he's either so oblivious to the point that he'd walk off a bridge, or he's a psychopath. That means you ARE saying he can only be one thing in this matter.Did you miss the part above where I said there are two options, only one of which is that the MC is a sociopath?
Yes. Yes, I am - that's pretty much what I am saying. In my opinion torture is evil and mostly counter-productive. There are degrees of evil, different types and levels of torture, and various reasons for it (e.g. the ticking time bomb scenario that never actually happens and is a literary device from fiction), but it is evil and wrong. IMHO to not be bothered by after participating in it you need to be either an idiot, evil, or broken - a person with a brain defect who doesn't feel empathy - IE a sociopath.
I haven't seen Clone Wars, so I can't really comment since I don't know how much that can be classified as torture but see above about different types and levels of torture. Depending on what they did, they may have done evil.
*Read in 1970s Frank Welker Fred voice*It's currently 9:30 PM here in forest fire filled Los Angeles and when I wake up tomorrow and 8 for some grand ol community college I expect to have a veritable cornucopia of answers to sift through instead of paying attention in class.
Part 1: That's an argumentative ultimatum. You're saying he's either so oblivious to the point that he'd walk off a bridge, or he's a psychopath. That means you ARE saying he can only be one thing in this matter.
Part 2: You are completely ignoring the context here. You are admitting that degrees of torture are a thing, and it can be done to people who can or have done worse. You are talking about someone torturing pirates who were raiding his system, stealing from his people and killing them while doing it. Considering this pirate was literally caught in the act of doing so, what are the chances his hands are clean in this matter? Torture of a more or less confirmed murderer and high quantity attempted theft of imperial cargo, or torture of said criminal. Which sounds like a worse crime?
Part 3: You're trying to downplay it so I spell it plainly. The three of them were using a collective Mind Trick on Cad Bane, a confirmed multi murderer who led an attack on the Republic Senate, with a confirmed killing of one Senator, multiple security personell, and planning to kill all the other Senators in the building with explosives. They were torturing him because another job he took involved stealing a Jedi Holocron with the names and location of numerous Force Sensitive infants the Jedi knew about but allowed to stay with their families at their parents decision. He PERSONALLY kidnapped these children and handed them over to Sidious, his client. He was captured but refused to talk, and resilient anough that a single Mind Trick wouldn't work,. so they decided on all three of them using a cumulative effort of three Mind Tricks at one. This would be the equivalent of an extremely painful psychic lobotomy if it went wrong, no different from physical torture that could kill you if it went wrong. It was even stated by one of them that such a thing could destroy someone's mind completely.
So which is worse; what Cad Bane did before and was doing at the time, or why the Jedi did to save some kidnapped infants from him?
I stand by my assertion that the common man/women are all capable of disassociate, compartmentalize, and justify their actions even if they know intellectually the full extent what is happening. There is no need to be a sociopath/psychopath, if you simply believe they are unworthy of your sympathy.
If it was the MC that was doing the torturing personally and didn't feel a shred of remorse then you have a case to argue. But he didn't. He didn't see the torturing, even if he knew intellectually what was happening, he didn't read a report detailing the excruciating pain that was being inflicted. He didn't see the torture scared corpses either, I doubt he even saw the bodybags. I highly doubt he even saw the faces of the pirate before the where "interrogated" either, or that he was given their names. They are nameless presumably faceless pirates who reaped what they sowed.
Calling the MC a monster is subjective to your own moral structure, calling him a sociopath/psychopath is objectively questionable.
He found out about his direct subordinate brutally torturing someone to death over the period of several days with multiple people having trouble sleeping due to the screams, and has just seen her wipe blood from her face. If he is disassociating here, then he is either an idiot or being explicitly and willfully blind, to which he does not have the right. Because he is in charge and what happens under his watch is his responsibility.
Damn, people got really work up over if MC is good or evil huh?
This is just stupid, "does not have the right"? What? Are we on some kind of Holier than thou crusading MC here? Like it or not torture is prob seen as regular in the imperial army, a place where Darth Vader force chokes his HIGH ranking officer on the spot without going through any protocol or trial?
The MC has shown to be not perfect, just like people. Expect him to be unable to disassociates bcs it's not his right is unrealistic, people breakdown under circumstance and just because you have "responsibility" doesn't mean you magically get the competency for it. MC was at that point, heavily under stress from the pirate raiding, was and still is heavily worked to death with little sleep.
I don't think it makes sense for a sane human being to watch somebody wipe the blood of prisoners
I think it also depends on where you live because if that guy was somewhere else kinder someone would have taken him somewhere to get treated and paid for it. Obviously the galactic empire does not care since we have seen clones on the streets begging for food despite all service they done.once there was a man with heavy tumors begging for food on the street
every just passed by including me and my mother
some girls were even joking about school and their boyfriends as this dude was esentially dying on the street
''out of sight,out of mind"
and if is a villanous kind (pirate) is very easy to dehumanize them and just let them suffer by omision,negligence and apathy
people arent good vs evil
they are easy/convinient vs inconvinient
is easy to just not give a fuck about pirates
I don't think it makes sense for a sane human being to watch somebody wipe the blood of prisoners for which they are responsible off their face and ignore all implications. In my opinion this can be explained in only a couple of ways, as I've mentioned repeatedly.
Makes sense. For most of human history pirate's weren't seen as people.
With that finished, I got a question for y'all. While it's still a ways away, since the Pirate Arc is still in it's beginning stages, I want to know what kinds of natives you want to see on Minda 2. I have yet to decide, so any submissions for culture, appearance, unique traits/artifacts/abilities are all the more likely to be taken into consideration.