Amelia, Worm AU [Complete]

[pepperjack]

Or have you never been introduced to this sort of behavior before in your life?

Click to shrink...

Why no, I never have! Thank you for the revelation, sensei, my life has been changed. My total inexperience in this matter must be why it didn't come across that way, for surely there is no other explanation.


The other thing that bothered me was the prevalence of "fuck." In Sentinel 9.6, a chapter of over 5,400 words told from Shadow Stalker's (3rd person) perspective, "fuck" appears eleven times. In Amelia 395, a chapter of under 2,100 words told from Shadow Stalker's (1st person) perspective, "fuck" appears twenty-two times.

Maybe that's justified by whatever reason you're about to pull out, but I hope you understand why it struck me as though there was an awful lot of "fuck" in this chapter.

 

[pepperjack]

She's fluffing her own ego. She is important and powerful after all, the only reason Taylor became anything is only because of Amelia. She's not so tough, Sophia kicked her around as Taylor and she could do the same thing when she's Khepri if she didn't cheat and have others fight for her.

Click to shrink...

Thing is, she respected Skitter. Her having no respect at all for Khepri caught me off guard.

I mean, I guess I can see it on reflection, but at first it totally did not compute.

 

[pheonix89]

Why no, I never have! Thank you for the revelation, sensei, my life has been changed. My total inexperience in this matter must be why it didn't come across that way, for surely there is no other explanation.


The other thing that bothered me was the prevalence of "fuck." In Sentinel 9.6, a chapter of over 5,400 words told from Shadow Stalker's (3rd person) perspective, "fuck" appears eleven times. In Amelia 395, a chapter of under 2,100 words told from Shadow Stalker's (1st person) perspective, "fuck" appears twenty-two times.

Maybe that's justified by whatever reason you're about to pull out, but I hope you understand why it struck me as though there was an awful lot of "fuck" in this chapter.

Click to shrink...

In Sentinel 9.6 her life wasn't utterly ruined and the one person she'd managed to twist like her wasn't making SS her bitch verbally and physically.

 

[pepperjack]

In Sentinel 9.6 her life wasn't utterly ruined and the one person she'd managed to twist like her wasn't making SS her bitch verbally and physically.

Click to shrink...

9.6 opens up with her bitching to Emma over the phone. Also,

Maybe that's justified by whatever reason you're about to pull out, but I hope you understand why it struck me as though there was an awful lot of "fuck" in this chapter.

Click to shrink...

 

[doomlord9]

Thing is, she respected Skitter. Her having no respect at all for Khepri caught me off guard.

I mean, I guess I can see it on reflection, but at first it totally did not compute.

Click to shrink...

She respected Skitter for kicking ass and taking names right up until she found out she was Taylor, then Skitter was just weakling Hebert faking and hiding behind her teammates.

Once she calmed down and watched Weaver fall into the same position Sophia was in and do it better, she then had a touch of respect for becoming what Sophia made her into because weak little Taylor Hebert would never have been able to become like that without Sophia showing her the way.

*edit*
I see what you're saying, just trying to get across the mindset as I see it.

 

[TanaNari]

She actually might have a chance at beating Taylor if SS gets to use her power and Taylor doesn't. Course, that's not how a fight would play out, but its SS deluding herself into writing off Taylor's success as being other people's.

Click to shrink...

No, Taylor can use *her own* power (re: damn bugs). Not *her girlfriend's power* (re: biomonstrocities that are still somehow controllable like bugs). Or so the justifications go in Sophia's mind.

Why no, I never have! Thank you for the revelation, sensei, my life has been changed. My total inexperience in this matter must be why it didn't come across that way, for surely there is no other explanation.

Click to shrink...

Well, it was that or assume you DID comprehend that sort of literary tool, yet ignored it in favor of attacking me. Which would make you intellectually dishonest as opposed to merely ignorant. I gave you a benefit of the doubt that you clearly don't deserve. But if you prefer behaving like this instead of an actual conversation, then that's convenient. It means you're being a douche and I can ignore you instead of showing the respect necessary to treat your comments seriously.

The other thing that bothered me was the prevalence of "fuck." In Sentinel 9.6, a chapter of over 5,400 words told from Shadow Stalker's (3rd person) perspective, "fuck" appears eleven times. In Amelia 395, a chapter of under 2,100 words told from Shadow Stalker's (1st person) perspective, "fuck" appears twenty-two times.

Maybe that's justified by whatever reason you're about to pull out, but I hope you understand why it struck me as though there was an awful lot of "fuck" in this chapter.

Click to shrink...

Eh, I was trying to portray her as extremely irritable and generally pissed about her situation. The person she hated most in life- the one she blamed for her going to juvie- the one who "stole" Emma from her and turned her against her (interesting reversal of canon, eh?)- was now Empress of a world and billions either loved or feared her (more people probably fear her than love her, but this is Sophia- love isn't the one she really cares about). Success being the best revenge and all? It's hard to be MORE successful.

That, and have you talked to anyone who's spent time in juvie? Christ, it's like they have a language comprised of nothing except profanities.

Maybe I overdid it a little, but that's not the same thing as your intellectual dishonesty in attacking my chapter.

Thing is, she respected Skitter.

Click to shrink...

She tried to hunt her down and murder her for seeing her face. And would have succeeded if not for plot armor an absurdly stupid plan, magic spider silk, and Sophia forgetting she could phase the weapon through the armor instead of trying to take off her mask and cut her throat. Or phase the mask off and then do the throat cutting.

 

[pepperjack]

Well, it was that or assume you DID comprehend that sort of literary tool, yet ignored it in favor of attacking me.

Click to shrink...

As you can see from my conversation with doomlord9, I've come around to this interpretation. It's just that my initial interpretation of what I read didn't give me that impression - for whatever reason, my first impression was that Sophia actually believed these things.

But if you prefer behaving like this instead of an actual conversation, then that's convenient.

Click to shrink...

I only responded with sarcasm to what I interpreted as a snide remark - "or have you never been introduced to this sort of behavior before in your life?" If - somehow - you did not intend that to be patronizing and dickish, then I apologize.

Maybe I overdid it a little, but that's not the same thing as your intellectual dishonesty in attacking my chapter.

Click to shrink...

1) Yeah, I think you overdid it a little. (No more or less than "a little.")
2) I didn't see my comments as an attack. If I came off as aggressive, hostile, or... I dunno, anything else that would make it seem like I was attacking you or your chapter, then I apologize. I only meant to give feedback on what struck me as an underwhelming chapter (by your standards) with a few flaws that jumped out at me.
3) I may have misread your character, but that just makes me slow on the uptake. I really don't think there's a case for intellectual dishonesty, here.
4) Why is this a comparison?

She tried to hunt her down and murder her for seeing her face. And would have succeeded if not for plot armor a stupid plan, magic spider silk, and Sophia forgetting she could phase the weapon through the armor instead of trying to take off her mask and cut her throat.

Click to shrink...

All of this is true (well, except for Sophia being forgetful about her power). I chose the word "respect" because I recently re-read it here:

Whatever else Shadow Stalker might think of the bug girl, how the girl was creepy, a freak, she had to admit Skitter had demonstrated enough viciousness to date that she could almost respect the girl as a fellow predator. An idiot, for wanting to fight her, but kindred, in a fashion.

Click to shrink...

Also, it's not an important point, but she did have reasons for not phasing through the costume:

Skitter struggled to get free, but Shadow Stalker's body weight was too much for her to slide free. She gripped the girl's wrists with her hands, pinned them to the ground.

"Irritating," she spat the word. She could always go into her shadow state, stick the arrow inside the girl and then return to normal. The problem with going that route was that it left a very characteristic imprint in the victim. She would need a way of covering up the evidence. Something she could hit Skitter with afterward that would make the wound too messy to analyze for evidence.

While she craned her head to one side to the next to search for something useful, her surroundings were plunged into darkness.

Click to shrink...

 

[Destrark]

Well I think we all know Sophia is a blithering Loony and deserves to be treated as such (ignored and given the amount of respect she deserves i.e. none.) Anything else said about her is superfluous.

 

[TanaNari]

As you can see from my conversation with doomlord9, I've come around to this interpretation. It's just that my initial interpretation of what I read didn't give me that impression - for whatever reason, my first impression was that Sophia actually believed these things.

Click to shrink...

Well, she *does* in the sense of "in a fair fight, I'd win, but having super bug monsters made for you by someone else is not a fair fight". And that much is certainly true- if she had a chance to go after Taylor without her "hiding behind" others... then, oh yes, she's convinced she'd win. Because she already DID win, once. Up until others came along and saved her.

I only responded with sarcasm to what I interpreted as a snide remark - "or have you never been introduced to this sort of behavior before in your life?" If - somehow - you did not intend that to be patronizing and dickish, then I apologize.

Click to shrink...

No, I was being patronizing and dickish. We both know it. But to you ignoring the context of the chapter in what was looking like an intentional fashion.

1) Yeah, I think you overdid it a little. (No more or less than "a little.")
2) I didn't see my comments as an attack. If I came off as aggressive, hostile, or... I dunno, anything else that would make it seem like I was attacking you or your chapter, then I apologize. I only meant to give feedback on what struck me as an underwhelming chapter (by your standards) with a few flaws that jumped out at me.
3) I may have misread your character, but that just makes me slow on the uptake. I really don't think there's a case for intellectual dishonesty, here.

Click to shrink...

1- Fair enough. Profanities probably a lazy way to do it, but Sophia's not exactly portrayed as the "intellectual" sort. She's mean, possibly below average IQ, and is currently in Juvie. There's not a lot for me to do that's in character EXCEPT profanities and simple language as I used in the chapter.

2- Which would be fine, if you stick to facts when pointing out flaws. But saying things about Sophia that are contradicted by canon. (RE: she acknowledged Taylor as any kind of person deserving of respect) and the like... that's not sticking to facts.

3- I see any time when you ignore facts or information you possess to portray a case in your favor, instead of letting the evidence speak for itself, as intellectually dishonest. You say you're aware of people lying to themselves/talking themselves up to make themselves feel better in their own minds... yet ignore that when arguing about a point in the chapter where that very thing is obviously happening.

All of this is true (well, except for Sophia being forgetful about her power). I chose the word "respect" because I recently re-read it here:

Also, it's not an important point, but she did have reasons for not phasing through the costume:

Click to shrink...

Dumb reasons. If she were smart (or in character), it's kill first THEN look for ways to cover it. Or kill, then make up an excuse for why she did. Remember- this was a *notorious* supervillain. I'm sure Sophia could have been all "I didn't have a choice because (bullshit)". Maybe not enough to sell the public, but Piggot wouldn't have been too heartbroken to cover the murder up/plant justification/whatever.

That part of the story was pure plot armor, nothing more.

 

[evildice]

That part of the story was pure plot armor, nothing more.

Click to shrink...

Even Taylor's plot armor is spider silk.

 

[pepperjack]

Well, she *does* in the sense of "in a fair fight, I'd win, but having super bug monsters made for you by someone else is not a fair fight". And that much is certainly true- if she had a chance to go after Taylor without her "hiding behind" others... then, oh yes, she's convinced she'd win. Because she already DID win, once. Up until others came along and saved her.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough.

2- Which would be fine, if you stick to facts when pointing out flaws. But saying things about Sophia that are contradicted by canon. (RE: she acknowledged Taylor as any kind of person deserving of respect) and the like... that's not sticking to facts.

Click to shrink...

I said Skitter. I also gave a quote. I'm not sure what else you want from me.

You say you're aware of people lying to themselves/talking themselves up to make themselves feel better in their own minds... yet ignore that when arguing about a point in the chapter where that very thing is obviously happening.

Click to shrink...

No. There are options other than ignorance or deliberate ignorance. I think I see where the problem is, though - you say it's obviously happening. Perhaps it is, but it wasn't - initially - obvious to me.

I realize (now) what you were trying to do. However, the first time I read it, it wasn't convincing. It didn't come across to me as someone lying to themselves (or at least not just someone lying to themselves). Upon reflection, I think this is because I know more about Khepri than Sophia does, and I hadn't mentally adjusted for the different perspective; if she knew what I did ... well, there are limits to how much one can rationalize.

When I was making my earlier comments, I hadn't yet reflected, and I wasn't sure why this didn't read as what you intended it to. I don't always know why I feel a certain way about something until I've taken the time to do introspection.

Also, you'll see I later conceded this point, once I was convinced (by doomlord9) that this is what was being done.

Dumb reasons. [...]
That part of the story was pure plot armor, nothing more.

Click to shrink...

Like I said, it's not an important point. I'm not particularly invested in discussing it.

 

[Coruscant Knave]

Sophia is one of those characters that's nearly impossible to get right. And by "get right" I don't mean nail her rather simple character.

She generates an extremely emotional response in readers and you're either too hard or too soft on her.

For some inexplicable reason I like her and enjoy seeing her portrayed in a slightly more complex, sympathetic light, but irredeemable psychopath is probably closer to the intended interpretation.

 

[evildice]

For some inexplicable reason I like her and enjoy seeing her portrayed in a slightly more complex, sympathetic light, but irredeemable psychopath is probably closer to the intended interpretation.

Click to shrink...

Perhaps she's a complex and irredeemable psychopath.

There's no reason a psychopath can't be presented as a complex, sympathetic character. Alec certainly was.

 

[cosoco]

I'm not even necessarily comparing it to fanon. She was fucked up in canon, yeah, but she wasn't batshit to the point where she couldn't recognize that Weaver wasn't someone to be fucked with. Weaver. In this chapter, she is not only fucked up (which is right and appropriate), she comes across as though she had been dropped, as a child. Repeatedly.

Click to shrink...

We can see in the chapter that Sophia sees that it would be stupid to go up and punch Taylor. Taylor has a bug army, a team of high-level capes, can call in help from the Protectorate, a powerful set of cybernetic armor, and the aforementioned Class S Girlfriend. But none of this makes Sophia respect Taylor, any more than she would respect Piggot because she ran the PRT.

Thing is, she respected Skitter. Her having no respect at all for Khepri caught me off guard.

Click to shrink...

Mmm, but Skitter and Khepri have very different public images. Skitter is all, "Look upon me and know fear, for you will die begging for release," while Khepri is all, "We can create a better tomorrow if we all work together."

 

[Biigoh]

Man... that is one flanderized Sophia. Even in her interlude, she doesn't think like that.

 

[pepperjack]

die begging for release," while Khepri is all, "We can create a better tomorrow if we all work together."

Click to shrink...

Yes. This is true.

 

[cyberswordsmen]

Wrong on two counts. First- it was very much covered repeatedly in canon. A broken analogy would be a one off thing. It was called a *philosophy* in canon, and Sophia used it repeatedly.

Second, I'm *not* using it. I'm making it quite clear that it's a justification, not something she actually buys into.

Click to shrink...

She did buy into it in canon, but that doesn't mean it isn't a justification. The philosophy is great as a justification because it can be twisted to label anyone she wants as either predator or prey as she desires and justify any action against anyone she wants.

When Emma punches an ABB thug she is a predator yet when Taylor punches Emma she is acting above her station. Sophia can hide behind numbers, lawyers and authority figures but when others do so they are cowards. When Taylor is an epic villain and hero she is just mimicking Sophia and not a predator.

Well, she *does* in the sense of "in a fair fight, I'd win, but having super bug monsters made for you by someone else is not a fair fight". And that much is certainly true- if she had a chance to go after Taylor without her "hiding behind" others... then, oh yes, she's convinced she'd win. Because she already DID win, once. Up until others came along and saved her.

Click to shrink...

I would argue that that wasn't a real fight but rather Taylor baiting her and luring her into a trap, which went according to plan. If Taylor wasn't baiting her Sophia would never have even seen her, just dropped dead from the poison.

That said I have no issues with Sophia deluding herself into believing the contrary.

 

[TanaNari]

Sophia is one of those characters that's nearly impossible to get right. And by "get right" I don't mean nail her rather simple character.

She generates an extremely emotional response in readers and you're either too hard or too soft on her.

For some inexplicable reason I like her and enjoy seeing her portrayed in a slightly more complex, sympathetic light, but irredeemable psychopath is probably closer to the intended interpretation.

Click to shrink...

I noticed!

Seriously, though. I stayed as loyal to canon as possible. If it were up to me, I'd make her a bit more interesting and/or maybe possibly eventually even likable. (Hey, I did it for Emma... and Bonesaw... I'd like to hope I even made Coil something... pitiable, perhaps?)

But Sophia is clearly set up to be truly psychotic and a fucking coward to boot. A serial killer that hasn't quite worked up to the final step to become a serial killer- and THAT is only by chance. Any argument otherwise is fanon.

Perhaps she's a complex and irredeemable psychopath.

There's no reason a psychopath can't be presented as a complex, sympathetic character. Alec certainly was.

Click to shrink...

Alec was a sociopath. HUGE difference between the two. An he wasn't really portrayed as complex or sympathetic. You can see him as such kinda/sorta in a "death equals redemption" sort of way... but he wasn't exactly a fleshed out character.

Nor was Sophia, really.

Both of them got better treatment than Grue, however. I get the feeling that somewhere along the line, Wildbow came to regret not having him die against Leviathan.

Man... that is one flanderized Sophia. Even in her interlude, she doesn't think like that.

Click to shrink...

Nope. But I've already explained my reasoning.

She did buy into it in canon, but that doesn't mean it isn't a justification.

I would argue that that wasn't a real fight but rather Taylor baiting her and luring her into a trap, which went according to plan. If Taylor wasn't baiting her Sophia would never have even seen her, just dropped dead from the poison.

That said I have no issues with Sophia deluding herself into believing the contrary.

Click to shrink...

I disagree on both counts. The former because, well, as others have pointed out it's a "bad analogy". It's more than that, of course, because of its frequency being used to justify whatever twisted desire Sophia had at the moment... but the reason you can argue either direction is because she clearly doesn't *live* the belief. Not that many people do live their purported beliefs. But that just means most people don't actually believe what they claim to believe. A fact that comes as no surprise to anyone ever.

And I HIGHLY doubt Taylor was ready to be pinned down and possibly murdered by phase-knife as part of baiting Sophia. So maybe revealing herself was part of a plan, but she lost the fair fight.

 

[dasstan]

Alec was a sociopath. HUGE difference between the two. An he wasn't really portrayed as complex or sympathetic. You can see him as such kinda/sorta in a "death equals redemption" sort of way... but he wasn't exactly a fleshed out character.

Click to shrink...

There's something nice about a character whose motivation is simple. He just wanted his creature comforts, lots of money, and to avoid the wrath of his papa. Somewhere along the line he went and grew a tiny spark of empathy.

 

[Sheaman3773]

But none of this makes Sophia respect Taylor, any more than she would respect Piggot because she ran the PRT.

Click to shrink...

Well...

There were some 'predators', she could admit, that were even useful. Emma came to mind, the girl went a long way towards making life out of costume tolerable, and there was Director Piggot, who had kept her out of jail thus far, because she fit into the woman's overarching agenda of PR and the illusion of a working system.

Click to shrink...

...sorta.

Kinda surprising, isn't it?

 

[cyberswordsmen]

Alec was a sociopath. HUGE difference between the two. An he wasn't really portrayed as complex or sympathetic. You can see him as such kinda/sorta in a "death equals redemption" sort of way... but he wasn't exactly a fleshed out character.

Click to shrink...

A lot of the reason people like him is that while he was horribly in how own way he fully acknowledged that the way he is, is not a good thing to be and was trying to change for the better even if he didn't know how. While he was fucked up a lot of the things he was shown doing did demonstrate he overall good intentions.

He hurt Sophia because he saw it as protecting Taylor not for his own enjoyment. He clearly was trying to have a 'normal' relationship with Aisha, and eventually did sacrifice himself to save her which showed he was capable of valuing someone elses life more than his own. A fact that surprised him even as he did it.

Sophia in contrast never shows any remorse, nor admits she has done wrong.

In the end Alec was made a monster but chose to change that when he gained freedom without anyone pushing him. Sophia chose to be a monster and doubled down on that choice every time she was handed a chance to turn away from her path.

 

[Mr. Tebbs]

Seriously, though. I stayed as loyal to canon as possible. If it were up to me, I'd make her a bit more interesting and/or maybe possibly eventually even likable. (Hey, I did it for Emma... and Bonesaw... I'd like to hope I even made Coil something... pitiable, perhaps?)

But Sophia is clearly set up to be truly psychotic and a fucking coward to boot. A serial killer that hasn't quite worked up to the final step to become a serial killer- and THAT is only by chance

Click to shrink...

Slightly off topic to prove a point: Dexter was likable and he was totally a serial killer.

 

[Daunmi]

Also. There's been almost no serious attempts at guessing what Emma's planning.

Click to shrink...

Covered that when we were talking about Harry Potter and the Methods of rationality.

A/N- How did no one guess this? For shame.

Click to shrink...

Oddly enough, I thought it might be a dedicated attempt to find Madison, or a farewell to her when she was found to be dead or something.

 

[Mr. Tebbs]

And I HIGHLY doubt Taylor was ready to be pinned down and possibly murdered by phase-knife as part of baiting Sophia. So maybe revealing herself was part of a plan, but she lost the fair fight.

Click to shrink...

sounds kinda like Skitter nearly pulled a Canon!Alexandria gambit, complete with the bad end. Alexandria pushed Taylor's buttons and left herself intentionally vulnerable to counterattack to provoke a response, in a fight where both are using their powers to the best of their abilities, Alexandria would wipe the floor with Skitter, spidersilk armor or no.Taylor/Skitter pushed Sophia's buttons (tempting target that's getting away) and very nearly got killed for it [probably didn't think SS would resort to killing as a first resort, or expected some showboating like what Taylor experienced in the past]. In a fight where they're both using their abilities to the best, Taylor would watch for SS out of sight, land a widow on her, and bite her.

of course, when Alexandria died, the PRT pressganged Taylor into the Wards. If Taylor had died, Imp would have likely murdered SS

 

[Daunmi]

If Taylor had died, Imp would have likely murdered SS

Click to shrink...

'Likely'!?

Skitter nearly pulled a Canon!Alexandria gambit

Click to shrink...

So we've got Taylor going the bully route for Scion, Alexandria route for Sophia (before the fact! Taylor was risking her life to provoke parahumans before it was mainstream!). Another other notable instances where she turns around the horrible things in her life and does them to others?

 

[Mr. Tebbs]

Hey, she learned it from Emma

 

[Ack]

I have no problem with this interpretation of Sophia.

She's been in juvey for some little time now, and her only peer group is the other inmates. Whose language probably isn't the most cultured. And the only counsel she'd be listening to is her own. So it's very unsurprising that she's fallen into the habit of swearing a lot more, and that her own worldview has circled in around itself to the point that she's even more self-aggrandising than normal.

The only thing that's missing, really, is "Fuck, she's going to grow her arm back?" as Sophia realises that she took her best shot, lost some fingers, and still didn't make a dent on Emma.

But hey, she still took a Reason You Suck speech, and ended up in a screaming meltdown, so there's that.

 

[gatewaewanderer]

Honestly, I have to agree with what was already said about Sophia being a simple character that people like to make overly complex, either trying to make her sympathetic or monstrous. Take her actions and what we see of her thoughts in canon, and she is not a complex character. She claims to live her life by that 'predator and prey' bull, and has shown some indication that she believes it consciously or at least pays lip service to it, but her actions and the few times we get her POV, she proves that it is just an excuse and justification for her actions.

I admit, I'm biased against her character; for me, she is basically just a super-powered bully, and having been bullied during my own school years, I can't sympathize very easily with a character like Sophia Hess / Shadow Stalker (which is probably why why I do sympathize with characters like Taylor and Amelia.). But that doesn't change for me that Sophia, as presented here, is as close to being what she was in canon as I think this AU allows, characterization and all. If there's any flanderization here, I think it's a relatively small amount.

 

[dasstan]

Sophia is going to be in for a surprise when Alice triggers with a bud of her shard. Oops.

 

[Daunmi]

Sophia is going to be in for a surprise when Alice triggers with a bud of her shard. Oops.

Click to shrink...

At the end of the month, half the prison has triggered from being sick of listening to her bullshit, with Sophia's power so they can phase out and ignore her.

Sophia is less than pleased at how she's no longer special.