GiftofLove
A Gift From The Heart
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2014
- Messages
- 11,542
I imagine that Eidolon's hard drive is full of some truly strange shit after this latest Endbringer.
-
The site has now migrated to Xenforo 2. If you see any issues with the forum operation, please post them in the feedback thread.
-
An addendum to Rule 3 regarding fan-translated works of things such as Web Novels has been made. Please see here for details.
-
RIP @Silver Swallow
-
Due to issues with external spam filters, QQ is currently unable to send any mail to Microsoft E-mail addresses. This includes any account at live.com, hotmail.com or msn.com. Signing up to the forum with one of these addresses will result in your verification E-mail never arriving. For best results, please use a different E-mail provider for your QQ address.
-
The rules regarding NSFW links have been updated. See here for details.
Slayer Anderson
Orthodox Heretic
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2014
- Messages
- 9,915
"Indestructible" just ain't what it used to be, huh?
doomlord9
Experienced.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2014
- Messages
- 4,739
Damn, good show. This would probably hit Taylor less heavily than my idea though, she has the pragmatic mindset needed to universally label the infected as already dead and everything left is just the Endbringer using their corpses. It will still hit her, but not a critical hit in that this is going to piss her off more than it will horrify her into giving up.
Maybe I'm just weird but I have never understood the problem Crystal had, nor when hundreds of other protagonists have had it as well.
They are dead. They're still moving around but it's a walking corpse. It's one thing to kill an actual person, when someone is irreversibly puppeted like it's just an extension of the puppet-masters will and death would be a mercy rather than having their corpse spread the infection and kill more people.
Just KILL the damn things before they make everything worse, you stupid bitch! *rages at the most recent display of what I see as suicidal stupidity on the screen*
Actually it's very believable. It's as simple as him thinking "God, these things are horrible but at least they didn't do X because that would be even worse!" and then the Endmaker Shard extrapolates that into a new thing. Even moreso because he studies Pantheon's tactics arguably to work with them but a major part of making something work is knowing how to break it, because if you don't know the weak points you can't fix them. Too bad he is feeding those details right into the Endmaker Shard.
It's like the phrase that describes the perfect hell. Think of the most horrible thing you can experience and going through it constantly. Eventually you start getting used to it, it's still horrible but you can't help but think at least it's not something worse like X. And then you are suffering X until you get used to that and think of something worse.
As constantly refreshing source of suffering fueled by your own ability to think, as long as you have conscious thought you will always experience the worst you can imagine, until you think of something worse than that and then you are there instead.
Honestly if they can figure out it's actually Eidolon, the most merciful method of resolving the problem is to lobotomize him. Remove his ability to think freely, he does exactly what he is told but has no thoughts of his own. He might even suggest it himself because that would at least leave his meat-robot body behind to put his powers to good use while removing the creativity that brought about these horrors.
Killing him wouldn't help as much as they think, it would just release the Endmaker shard to find a new host. They know it's possible given Zach's power is a new imagining of Oni Lee's power so keeping the Endmaker shard contained and locked down is better than losing track of it by killing the current host.
Maybe I'm just weird but I have never understood the problem Crystal had, nor when hundreds of other protagonists have had it as well.
They are dead. They're still moving around but it's a walking corpse. It's one thing to kill an actual person, when someone is irreversibly puppeted like it's just an extension of the puppet-masters will and death would be a mercy rather than having their corpse spread the infection and kill more people.
Just KILL the damn things before they make everything worse, you stupid bitch! *rages at the most recent display of what I see as suicidal stupidity on the screen*
Actually it's very believable. It's as simple as him thinking "God, these things are horrible but at least they didn't do X because that would be even worse!" and then the Endmaker Shard extrapolates that into a new thing. Even moreso because he studies Pantheon's tactics arguably to work with them but a major part of making something work is knowing how to break it, because if you don't know the weak points you can't fix them. Too bad he is feeding those details right into the Endmaker Shard.
It's like the phrase that describes the perfect hell. Think of the most horrible thing you can experience and going through it constantly. Eventually you start getting used to it, it's still horrible but you can't help but think at least it's not something worse like X. And then you are suffering X until you get used to that and think of something worse.
As constantly refreshing source of suffering fueled by your own ability to think, as long as you have conscious thought you will always experience the worst you can imagine, until you think of something worse than that and then you are there instead.
Honestly if they can figure out it's actually Eidolon, the most merciful method of resolving the problem is to lobotomize him. Remove his ability to think freely, he does exactly what he is told but has no thoughts of his own. He might even suggest it himself because that would at least leave his meat-robot body behind to put his powers to good use while removing the creativity that brought about these horrors.
Killing him wouldn't help as much as they think, it would just release the Endmaker shard to find a new host. They know it's possible given Zach's power is a new imagining of Oni Lee's power so keeping the Endmaker shard contained and locked down is better than losing track of it by killing the current host.
evildice
(emotionally stable clown posse)
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2015
- Messages
- 22,635
Everything above their brainstem is still them, though.
With Pantheon's brain-scan and clone tech, it would be possible to bring them back.
So really, they just need a pile of Bakuda's glass-bombs, and a budget to cover the restoration process.
With Pantheon's brain-scan and clone tech, it would be possible to bring them back.
So really, they just need a pile of Bakuda's glass-bombs, and a budget to cover the restoration process.
doomlord9
Experienced.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2014
- Messages
- 4,739
Yup, right up until they get a fix on how to solve the problem, then the parasites will finish the job by consuming their brain entirely so that the infected are still lost.
Seriously, this is one plot point that completely and utterly baffles me with anything that has undead or irreversibly mind-controlled minions.
They. Are. DEAD.
This is not something to piddle around with, the longer you take to remove the problems the more people get infected and suffer before being allowed to die. Killing the infected as soon as possible and as surely as possible prevents more people from suffering the same fate than you would save by wasting time trying to recover them.
This comes up in every single zombie movie, book, and game and it has never made a single lick of sense to me at any time.
NewCloud
Getting sticky.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 92
Well yeah but even if the person's conscious is still there the problem is the time. Restoring people from glass bombs more or less seems to require Riley's personal attention, and a lot of it. Pantheon unfortunately has much much bigger problems to deal with that if not handled would lead to many more deaths. Heck, these people might even take more time because they would have to rebuild their nervous systems even if the brain, outside of the brain stem was untouched.
Edit: Imp'd. Yeah as doomlord was saying, killing the victims is the only real option. Maybe they could capture a few and make some sort of pathogen that kills the zombie plague for future battles but considering that this is an Endbringer that would almost certainly not work.
Edit: Imp'd. Yeah as doomlord was saying, killing the victims is the only real option. Maybe they could capture a few and make some sort of pathogen that kills the zombie plague for future battles but considering that this is an Endbringer that would almost certainly not work.
evildice
(emotionally stable clown posse)
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2015
- Messages
- 22,635
Not if the infection got glassed with the brain, or if the glass is inedible to the infection.
My post was short, there's no need to skip past bits of it.
Pantheon defies sense: they already did bring back people from dead brains.
Also, Pantheon defies licking.
Your inability to sense licks (or to lick sense) is irrelevant.
Leonidas333
Well-Known Murderhobo
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2014
- Messages
- 164
This endbringer is amazing. I absolutely love the psychological warfare.
You are completely correct. The problem lies with people who are not rational enough to think of that, and those who even if they think of it, still feel the emotional repercussions. From Crystals POV, she see's it as murder, and its hard for people to overcome the morals they've had ingrained in them since day one. This enbringers psych warfare is going to separate the chaff from the wheat. Only those who have the strength of will to kill people as soon as they're infected (and lop off their own limbs, another fun mental sticking point) are going to be able to fight. Plus, what is video of this endbringer going to look like to the rest of the world?
Yeah, I very much doubt the endbringer would allow them to live. Plus, the question is, even after you've fixed them, how do you know it didnt leave behind booby traps behind? Because thats what I'd do, and probobally what any ruthless member of pantheon would do. Plus, why put the work into saving them when they need to kill sion to ensure everyone lives? Its not a worthwhile investment of resources.
GiftofLove
A Gift From The Heart
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2014
- Messages
- 11,542
Yes. If they can map out the brain and add/delete things on command they can do this easily. Especially since Victoria can see the changes, and Amelia can find problems with her biosense.
The only time it would become a problem was if it reapplied itself like a malfunctioning shard.
That gives me an idea. A new Endbringer that infects people and gives them powers. Conflict drive set to MAX.
SwiftRosenthal
Connoisseur.
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2014
- Messages
- 24,189
That would only be true if Eidolon was a natural trigger. Killing him actually works.
Fouredged
Experienced.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2014
- Messages
- 3,121
People cringe when you break a pencil if you give it a name and get them to empathize with it. Killing things with faces is HORRID on the human mind. Unless you don't consider your victim part of your tribe and perhaps not even human, it HURTS to harm them.
Mastigos2
Versed in the lewd.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,265
Honestly the "only" thing they need to do is enhance the brainscan tech to work at range on a moving target, and very very fast. Or make a city scale cross-dimensional scanner that gets warped to the Avalon equivilent of the location of the fight and scan EVERYONE. "Not" hard at all,
The Shadowmind
Connoisseur.
- Joined
- May 29, 2014
- Messages
- 10,246
That level of rapid brain scanning is probably not something that Pantheon can suddenly make in the middle of an Endbringer fight. Tinkers are still limited by their specialties, resources, and time.
It might be something that Pantheon will be able to make once the new Cauldron Tinkers and Thinkers get added to their rooster, but that again will take time and resources.
doomlord9
Experienced.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2014
- Messages
- 4,739
Sorry, I've gotten into the habit of just quickly highlighting the points I am responding to and using the popup 'reply' button for only those part rather than hitting the general reply button for the whole post.
But even then it wouldn't matter. This isn't an unthinking infection, the is an intelligently directed and controlled attack. They would get off one glass bomb attack at most, and possibly not even that depending on how aware the Endbringer is of what Pantheon has available, before the parasite would react and lobotomize the remaining hosts just to deny them even that avenue of recovery.
One last 'fuck you' just to be sure that they don't win.
It "should" work, which is a maybe. This is not something you allow to have any sort of uncertainty or chance to it, the only acceptable answers for something of this magnitude are 'yes it works' and 'no, that doesn't work'. If the shard turns out to be active enough to find a new host afterwards, and this is possible seeing as it is active enough to make autonomous death machines without Eidolon's active influence, they are screwed and back to square 1.
Keeping Eidolon alive will keep the shard attached to him, this is an absolute certainty. Knowing exactly where it is gives them options of how to deal with it, even putting him into stasis might do the job but all of the methods for the most guaranteed best end result keep Eidolon alive but unable to feed new data to the shard.
And if they had that done ahead of time that would be great. They'll be sure to have that ready for the next time the have to fight this EB if they don't figure out how to kill it in this fight, but taking the time the time to research and make it while dealing with the infection already in progress just means you have allowed more people to become infected.
*Zombie-Imped*
Snake/Eater
Myth Maker of the North
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2015
- Messages
- 6,421
for the sabah chapter i choose Imagine Dragon's "Radioactive"you tried to ignore the reality of your situation Sabah.but now your welcomed to to the new age,this is the apocalypse and you have a front seat.
For the current chapter with Crystal,i figured she needed some very dramatic music to go with the growing rage and despair...this is a "World Without End" by Brand X.can ever you ever truly go back home again,when you done terrible things to survive....
evildice
(emotionally stable clown posse)
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2015
- Messages
- 22,635
That is a win.
Either the Endbringer can't do that (since its form and abilities were fixed when it was minted), or it can do that and now the heroes are not forced into a moral (and morale) quandary.
Both of those are improvements.
Sure, there's no guarantee that this will save everyone, but it absolutely can and would make things better: either way, it's less demoralizing for the heroes.
TanaNari
Verified Dick
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2015
- Messages
- 28,465
She knew it was made of bullshit from touching it and her arm starting to dissolve. She'd have to be pretty fucking stupid not to figure it out.
Snake/Eater
Myth Maker of the North
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2015
- Messages
- 6,421
I think TanaNari has a writing philosophy similar to the gears of war's writers"if you succeed in one mission,you have to pay the price for it and have the toil raised for your troubles"I guess one of the themes of Ameilia is consequentialism(the doctrine that the morality of an action is to be judged solely by its consequences.)
Last edited:
SwiftRosenthal
Connoisseur.
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2014
- Messages
- 24,189
After actually reading the Crystal chapter, I can't like it, and I couldn't like the Lily chapter before it for the same reason. My patience for new Endbringers ran out during Wendigo and this one flies right past 'reasonable kaiju' and into 'unnecessarily horrifying'.
I'll continue to read, but I'm just putting this objection into text.
I'll continue to read, but I'm just putting this objection into text.
Last edited:
Diller
Versed in the lewd.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
- Messages
- 1,604
An "Unnecessarily horrifying" Endbringer?
That's kind of their role. Take the first three I mean Leviathan sinks fucking islands even when he's matched by someone. Behemoth leaves radioactive waste wherever he goes. Fucking Ziz mindrapes you, can see into the past and the future, is clairvoyant and is a master of makng people into paranoid freaks even when she doesn't mindrape them. They can't be killed unless their core is destroyed. The rest of their body is basically armor to hide the core. Getting to the core is a struggle in of itself thanks to their ridiculous durability.
The reason Caludron wanted Jack alive to kick of the Apoclayse was beause by the time Scion naturally went on a rampage civilization would be fucked thanks to the EBs. Oh and the EB have been sandbagging the entire time.
Serious mode EBs would have long finished off humanity if that was what Eidolon subconsciously wanted. I don't think we've even seen a serious mode EB even in Amelia yet except for maybe Leviathan. Even that's arguable as if it were true serious mode then all the avaibale EBs would attack at once instead of taking turns.
The Endbringers are unnecessarily horrifying by design.
That's kind of their role. Take the first three I mean Leviathan sinks fucking islands even when he's matched by someone. Behemoth leaves radioactive waste wherever he goes. Fucking Ziz mindrapes you, can see into the past and the future, is clairvoyant and is a master of makng people into paranoid freaks even when she doesn't mindrape them. They can't be killed unless their core is destroyed. The rest of their body is basically armor to hide the core. Getting to the core is a struggle in of itself thanks to their ridiculous durability.
The reason Caludron wanted Jack alive to kick of the Apoclayse was beause by the time Scion naturally went on a rampage civilization would be fucked thanks to the EBs. Oh and the EB have been sandbagging the entire time.
Serious mode EBs would have long finished off humanity if that was what Eidolon subconsciously wanted. I don't think we've even seen a serious mode EB even in Amelia yet except for maybe Leviathan. Even that's arguable as if it were true serious mode then all the avaibale EBs would attack at once instead of taking turns.
The Endbringers are unnecessarily horrifying by design.
Jackercracks
At Two With Nature
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 119
Zombies! Called it!
Riley's designed a Zombie virus before now, guess she's the specialist for dealing with this.
Riley's designed a Zombie virus before now, guess she's the specialist for dealing with this.
doomlord9
Experienced.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2014
- Messages
- 4,739
I agree with you on this, my point is that it won't do this unless they figure out a solution in that regard.
This Endbringer is a direct assault on their morals and morale, if they get any hope that they can fix it in the manner you suggest it will react to remove that hope in whatever is the best way to twist the blade that it can figure out.
It's the morale thing that I don't get. I can see how and why it works but personally I don't get it, it just wouldn't work on me. If I was the one calling the shots, I would see the moral thing to do would be to sterilize the entire city of even single-celled microbes as soon as I could get whatever method to be used ready and the retreat finishes. The infected are already lost in a slightly more terrible manner than if Leviathan had managed to get into a shelter, the best thing to do is to prevent their weaponized corpses from infecting the rest.
GiftofLove
A Gift From The Heart
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2014
- Messages
- 11,542
The solution is obviously to infect them with an even worse virus.
Fouredged
Experienced.
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2014
- Messages
- 3,121
Serious mode Levi comes in the form of a 500ft tsunami that blasts in from the ocean without warning. The fact that his first attack isn't to literally throw the ocean at the target means he is REALLY sandbaging.
tordg
(Unverified Idiot)
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2015
- Messages
- 119
This. Faces and viscera are... visceral. They haven't been mentioned, but there are probably children in the mix... Combine with scope insensitivity and the fact that the consequences of killing them are near and certain while the consequences of leaving them "alive" are plausibly more distant and uncertain and you have a situation I'm actually really proud of Crystal for managing to solve correctly because brains are STUPID and so most people simply couldn't do that.
And then the cordon around the "saved" that they can't afford to man immediately gets overrun and the glass gets eaten, undoing all their work.
Last edited:
Diller
Versed in the lewd.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
- Messages
- 1,604
Nah man. The infected aren't acting like a complete asshole who gets off on others pain and suffering.
Ack
(Verified Ratbag) (Unverified Great Old One)
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2014
- Messages
- 7,219
Um ... Endbringers are supposed to be unnecessarily horrifying.
Re-read the first Leviathan battle. Levi pulled so many fuck-you moments, turning what would have been bad to far worse, and he was up against only vaguely prepared opponents.
Endbringers are meant to horrify.
Mind you, this still doesn't stop me from wanting to see an Endbringer chapter where the EB rocks up and is taken down by something that they stopped using six EBs ago because it didn't work anymore. And everyone stands around going " ... huh."