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Amelia, Worm AU [Complete]

Reader mode
evildice said:
But Lily isn't Chinese.

Or are you saying they all rook arike?
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FTFY. Also, that was an incredibly racist thing to say and you should feel bad.

Tamoline said:
I'm not going to lie, the racism made me a little uncomfortable.
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Ehh. I'm a firm believer in intent being more important than the word itself. Said in a joking manner and without malice, which is what I'm sure Zach intended, is way different in my mind than actual "fuck those guys because they look different" racism.

That said, I'm aware that not everyone shares that sentiment, and that a lot of people would consider some of the stuff I find funny.... not.
 
Spetz N9ne said:
Said in a joking manner and without malice, which is what I'm sure Zach intended, is way different in my mind than actual "fuck those guys because they look different" racism.
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Poppycock. Zach is doing it because they're about to go to war on the Yangban. This is all part of the plan. First you dehumanize the enemy to make inflicting horrible things on them easier, then you inflict those horrible things.

Zach is a mastermind. Possibly an evil one.
 
Spetz N9ne said:
FTFY. Also, that was an incredibly racist thing to say and you should feel bad.
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Actually what I'm doing is turning around the accusation of racism upon the person trying to presume offense on Lily's part, since he was inaccurate in his presumption of offense -- unless he had made the (racist) mistake about which I asked.

The fact that he's trying to correct the author's racism, yet he made a mistake which could itself be interpreted as racism, is mildly entertaining. Thus I commented on it mildly.

Spetz N9ne said:
Ehh. I'm a firm believer in intent being more important than the word itself. Said in a joking manner and without malice, which is what I'm sure Zach intended, is way different in my mind than actual "fuck those guys because they look different" racism.
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Zach is an ass for the purpose of being funny.

So when he's being racist for the purpose of funny, he's doing it rather harmlessly -- just as when he's sexist for the purpose of funny, or otherwise impolite.

Yeah, context is important, and Zach being Zach is a fairly harmless context.
 
evildice said:
Actually what I'm doing is turning around the accusation of racism upon the person trying to presume offense on Lily's part, since he was inaccurate in his presumption of offense -- unless he had made the (racist) mistake about which I asked.
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I think he's talking about replacing the L's with R's like that for a cheap gag. Shame on you!
 
I'm not racist. I just dislike the CUI (and particularly the Yangban) in this story because they seem intent on being assholes.

On the subject of superhero racism, have you seen how many ethnic-themed supers there are in the comics? I mean, it's like the writers said, "We need to be equal opportunity. This guy's from Australia. We'll make him Aboriginal, because they're Australian (ignoring the twenty-two million non-Aboriginal Australians). And we'll give him a name from something very ethnic Australian, like Doctor Dreamtime."

(I kid you not; that was a throwaway villain in a DC comic).

Other offenders:

Apache Chief (he was a Native American who could grow really tall, which has nothing to do with being Apache or a chief).
Black Panther (African, of course. But from a technologically advanced African nation that no-one had ever heard of before. Because We're Not Racist.)

Similarly, we have Ice (from a cold country) and Fire (from a hot country) in JLI.

Also, powers inform personality way too much for my enjoyment. Just once, I'd like to see a quick-tempered stone guy, or a fire guy who actually takes things carefully and thinks things through.

/rant
 
Even joking racism is still racism. The fact that Zach said is almost kind of the problem - he's the jokester character who people laugh at, so we're supposed to at worst roll our eyes and dismiss him. It's certainly hard to imagine him suffering any consequences for it, let alone actually apologising. But it's still a slur that's used to taunt, marginalise and dehumanise people, a marker that this humour is not for Chinese people and anyone who's been called that, that it's laughing at them, not with them. From a meta point of view, it's construction and placement seems to be as a punchline, that you're supposed to be laughing with the racism, not even at it. (And the latter is hard at best to pull off that isn't also laughing at the marginalised people.)

Honestly, in my opinion, its inclusion is a mistake. To people who don't care about the racism, it's at best another punchline. To people who might feel alienated by it, it'll make them detract from their enjoyment of the story, may even make them stop reading it, though they'd presumably have a hefty investment by now. To people who enjoy racism... well, do you really want to go after those guys for your audience, especially *this* late into the story? I don't think it's a major thing, but I do think adding it has more downsides than upsides.

Also, I guess, while I'm talking about this kind of thing, the It's a Trap gif someone posted a few pages back made me flinch a little. The meme it draws on, that there's an attractive women who *surprise* has male genitals, is massively transphobic and is a sentiment that not only has got people like me killed - is, honest to god, still getting people like me killed - it's also the defence people have used successfully to walk away from the crime afterwards. It's not a massive thing, which is why I didn't bring it up at the time, and the story itself certainly isn't transphobic, but I thought I'd put it out there.
 
TanaNari said:
Does it help to know the author's Chinese?
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I did actually wonder that. :) Given your track record so far, I did wonder if that might be the reason you were comfortable using that slur. I think the answer is, kind of?

I mean, personally, yes it does. It may even allow me to go back and read that part at some point without having my enjoyment dampened by the end. And if you were telling this story in person, where it was clearly in-humour, it would be completely fine. I do think the anonymising effect of the internet combined with the fact that, in story, it's a non-Chinese person saying this means that it doesn't clearly come off as an in-joke, and hence could be harmful to the enjoyment of people you don't necessarily mean to target. I guess if you'd made a note of the fact that you're Chinese in the post - preferably before, so anyone who might feel vulnerable to that kind of humour would have that context *as* they read the joke - it would have come off somewhat differently.

Sorry. I'm not really great at this kind of thing. :)
 
See. That's what I hate about racism. How insidious it can be. That "it's my race" can be an excuse. That is much worse racism than any joke could ever be, because it's legitimately holding people to different standards based on their ancestry.

An offensive act should be offensive no matter who does it.

Not that I consider crass humor to be offensive. But that's a personal opinion. Race is not a factor- it's equally unoffensive no matter who says it. Unless it's a really uncool joke, in which case it's equally offensive no matter who says it.

Oh... and just so it's clear, I don't look Chinese. My male lineage (father, his father, his father's father, etc)... trace back to the building of the Continental Railroad. I'm only about 1/8th Chinese total, though the Y Chromosome comes directly from China.

And that makes me more Chinese than anything except Italian. My female lineage goes to Italy and is a full 1/4 (grandma's full blooded). And I'm more Asian than any other thing in total. Once we add up all the other 1/16ths or so.

I have Moorish in there. Black- both slave and lucky enough to never have that problem. Middle Eastern. Native American- from three sources NOT including Hispanic. Hispanic (and with it a healthy mix of white, black and native- specifically Peru's natives). Possibly either Russian or Polish. Irish. All in tiny little chunks.

So, by that logic I can say anything I want about anyone (except Aboriginal Australians- none of them in the potluck that is my gene pool) and it's perfectly okay. But as far as I'm concerned, it's *really not*.

Unless it's clearly said as a joke. In which case, it's not a matter of my race that makes it acceptable.


My actual opinion on race? "Fuck it... just like my ancestors did..."
 
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And this is why I said I'm not great at this kind of thing. And I'm probably not going to help anything, but here I go.

The reason I wouldn't feel as uncomfortable if you were Chinese isn't because of your genes or where your ancestors come from. It's because if you were Chinese - if you identified as Chinese - then it becomes a joke about 'us and the way other people see us' rather than a joke about 'them'. And, yes, other Chinese people or other people who have been tarred with that slur might well still disagree with your use of it, but I wouldn't really feel qualified to weigh in on the subject.

If you don't identify as Chinese, of course, or as a member of the group the slur applies to, then I'm straight back to uncomfortable. It's nothing to do with genes or race, it's more about identity and supporting the right of people to make humour out of the abuse flung at them.

To take an example somewhat more personal to me, if Zach had made a 'It's a trap' quip, I'd have felt slapped right out of the story and extremely uncomfortable. If you were trans and I'd known that - well, I'd still be uncomfortable about it, for the aforementioned reasons, but it'd at least be one of us, one of the people who has to deal with this shit, this fear, on a day to day basis making a joke in bad taste, rather than someone else punching in. Does that make any sense?

Edit - And, anyway, my general point still stands - I don't think that this particular joke adds anything much to the story, and it has certainly has the potential to take away from the enjoyment for some readers. Myself for one, and I'm not even a member of the targeted community. Even if you did identify as Chinese, I still wouldn't find it funny, just less uncomfortable. But YMMV.
 
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Tamoline said:
one of us
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This is your problem. The use of words like "us". I am a human being. THAT is my identity. Race is just a combination of alleles. "Chinese" is the same as "blond/blonde" is the same as some guy whose toes have more webbing than mine.

Gender/sex/lack thereof means nothing to me. Beyond aesthetic and mechanical features. So I guess it means about as much as the model of a car does. Incidentally, I can't even remember the names of the models of cars I owned in the past. Except my cutlass. Because that was a cool as name and such a lovely car to drive.

Nations are just lines drawn on a map.

Gay or straight? As meaningless as left or right handed. Sure, there ARE mechanical difference (using stuff built for the other handed people is a pain), but that doesn't mean there's a human difference.

The fact that people choose a word like "us" to describe themselves. That is a problem. The worst roadblock in human progress. Because "us" necessitates "them". Everything goes downhill from there.
 
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I actually thought the joke referred to Victoria, not Lily, and so it seemed to be a bit of a stretch.

As far as being offensive goes, well...

First, I don't like it when people get offended on the behalf of others.

Second, I choose not to get offended. Even if this was potentially offensive to me I would ignore it. Worst case I'd just stop reading.

Third, you being Chinese (partially or not) has no bearing on this as far as I'm concerned.

Fourth, Zach is obviously joking, and is not racist.

Fifth, it crushes humor, since most humor is at the expense of others.
 
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And that's great if you have that option. Seriously. Some of us don't, though.

I identify primarily as geek. Pretty much all my friends are role-players. I travel to the other side of a different continent each year to go to a roleplaying convention, and I've met many good friends there who I only see once a year for a few days.

Being trans in no way defines me.

But I still have to deal with the fact that, randomly, I'm going to have to deal with abuse on the streets. That though I'm pretty much in the lowest threat category possible - white, middle class, in a long term committed relationship to a woman - that I might be attacked simply because of who I am. Hell, now that I present as female, I even have to deal with the fact that just going to sleep on the train to work in the morning leaves me open to being groped.

The reason that there's an 'us' in groups like trans people or other such groups is because we have a commonality of experience, a commonality of abuse. I wish to hell it was something I could just ignore too.
 
Tamoline said:
I even have to deal with the fact that just going to sleep on the train to work in the morning leaves me open to being groped.
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I'm a man- a man that is over six feet tall and has a respectable amount of bulk- and *I* have to worry about being groped if I sleep on the train.

In those admittedly rare situations where I take trains anywhere (If by train we mean 'subway'). This is a thing I actively avoid. Less for the risk of groping so much as the risk of being robbed. Or stabbed. There's always a chance of that.

Ah, Chicago, please change everything about you.
 
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Listen,I may been careless with the general Akbar pic,I was pointing obviously at Theo's situation but it was also sending its's original message.

I have theory that every time Zach tells a joke he's unkowningly telling them the future,that there is a "chink in the armour" to whatever happens.
 
snthsnth said:
First, I don't like it when people get offended on the behalf of others.
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Just as a minor point, I'm not getting offended on behalf of anyone else. *I*, Tamoline, was uncomfortable with that joke, and it lessened *my* enjoyment of that section. That was my initial point. My only real point regarding other people was the subset of people that might be made uncomfortable/unwelcome by the joke *in my opinion* outweighed any real addition to the story it made.
 
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