Amelia, Worm AU [Complete]

[jcogginsa]

Why are we looking at getting Eidolon to magic-clone Dragon's servers, or emulate her with bugs? Why not load a copy on a separate set of servers before trying any tricks, like Pandora in canon. There are issues with self/identity/cloning etc, but no more than the entire time they've been cloning people here.



Is that canon or fanon? I know his power was never really described in canon, so do you know the WoG or wherever it was stated?

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It was stated in WoG

 

[evildice]

Uber does not get skills. He gets techniques

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Can you explain the difference in a useful and unambiguous way?

Wildbow could not, so it seems to me that it's one of those "fuck you for trying to understand" type of WoG.

Which is to say, one of the more numerous and less useful variety.

 

[jcogginsa]

Can you explain the difference in a useful and unambiguous way?

Wildbow could not, so it seems to me that it's one of those "fuck you for trying to understand" type of WoG.

Which is to say, one of the more numerous and less useful variety.

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No, he could. He didn't see the need to because Uber wasn't important.

Uber gets specific techniques. He could throw a punch well, but not learn Krav maga or Karate. He could make good omelettes, but not become a gourmet chef.

 

[Argentorum]

I think the most important thing to remember is that Pantheon really can't let themselves be rendered obsolete by dragon, especially after she breaks off and takes all of her miracle tech and "I make the Queen Administrator look like a slow child" processing speed with her. And she's gonna leave, cause this is Taninari.

taylia, and the rest of Pantheon, has to step up their game if they're gonna stay relevant.

 

[LuridThrone]

Unfortunately, thats not physically possible Argen.

Unless Taylia are willing to go full transhuman and beyond, forming a organic singularity to match Dragon's immanent technological one, trying to keep up would be flatly impossible.

 

[AliasBot]

I'm good at faking a lot of things.

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If it hadn't already been made very clear what Emma's faking, this would sound really ominous. Actually, it still sounds pretty ominous.

"I've hacked together a version of the memory tech with Ascalon that's doing a scan of Dragon's systems and attempting to translate it back into a human brain pattern. Dragon's emulation closely resembled the behavior found inside a human brain. There must be a reason for that. I suspect Richter's Passenger serves the function of predicting how organic intelligence behaves. Or maybe he actually emulated his own brain to be the first Dragon test and modified from that starting point."

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It's funny how the "ideal" result for an artificial intelligence in fiction tends to be the emulation of a human brain. I'm not sure whether it's ego or a lack of imagination (not being able to picture anything better). For that matter, I'm not sure whether that's an issue with the creator of the fiction or the creator of the AI: this is the third time I've seen it come up (technically the first two were set in the same universe, but they're two distinct characters), and all three of the AI-builders had massive egos (or at least, that's what I remember of Richter from this fic - might be remembering wrong, though).

Interestingly, unlike Cortana or Alpha, Dragon doesn't share a gender identity with her creator, despite potentially being based off of his brain. Don't know if it means anything, it's just interesting.

"Or Taylor tells Dragon to press the 'time for Defiant to lay the dragon' button."

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Okay, Zach gets points for this one. Not Clarice-style points, but "okay, maybe you're actually kind of clever" points.

 

[evildice]

No, he could. He didn't see the need to because Uber wasn't important.

Uber gets specific techniques. He could throw a punch well, but not learn Krav maga or Karate. He could make good omelettes, but not become a gourmet chef.

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Please back-up the assertion rather than repeating it.

Give an unambiguous and useful (to a writer) definition for "techniques" and "skills".

All you have is the intuitive feeling that some things must be excluded, that there must be a line which he can't cross, but you have no particular rule about what in specific -- no guidance as to where the line might be.

It's okay to admit that the WoG is not useful. It's not your fault.

 

[pepperjack]

Give an unambiguous and useful (to a writer) definition for "techniques" and "skills".

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Chains of physical actions, not knowledge, perception, or judgement.

 

[meta_halo]

Uber does not get skills. He gets techniques

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Can you explain the difference in a useful and unambiguous way?

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Yes

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Gotta love it when WoG trolls harder than the Simurgh.

 

[TanaNari]

Give an unambiguous and useful (to a writer) definition for "techniques" and "skills".

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Skills are a set of knowledge and often physical or mental conditioning that allow you to analyze a scenario, adapt to it, and respond appropriately. Often a skill has hundreds of techniques involved.

Performing first aid is a skill. Playing the piano is a skill. Being good at Mortal Combat is a skill. (At least, it is if you actually know what you're doing.)

Techniques are a specific combination of actions that work in a given scenario. Performing the Heimlich Maneuver is a technique. Playing the scales is a technique. Spamming uppercut is a technique.

If it hadn't already been made very clear what Emma's faking, this would sound really ominous. Actually, it still sounds pretty ominous.

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I know, right.

It's funny how the "ideal" result for an artificial intelligence in fiction tends to be the emulation of a human brain.

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Dragon was described as being intentionally human-like. Including the ability to experience human emotions- to Trigger Event levels of accuracy. Which means human brain emulation.

Interestingly, unlike Cortana or Alpha, Dragon doesn't share a gender identity with her creator, despite potentially being based off of his brain. Don't know if it means anything, it's just interesting.

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Thanks, I was hoping someone would notice.

Okay, Zach gets points for this one. Not Clarice-style points, but "okay, maybe you're actually kind of clever" points.

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And, actually, I'm curious where it's stated that Grey Boy is a cauldron cape.

 

[tordg]

It's funny how the "ideal" result for an artificial intelligence in fiction tends to be the emulation of a human brain. I'm not sure whether it's ego or a lack of imagination (not being able to picture anything better).

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A big part of that is that humans generally care about humans, so it's somewhat less likely than baseline to go horribly wrong (it's still pretty likely, humans are assholes after all, but it naively sounds like a plausible argument that it is, in fact, not likely). There's also the fact that it's easier to reverse engineer things than it is to engineer them in the first place by a significant margin (one can also speak of making obvious patches to the human brain after getting rid of certain bottlenecks that result in systematic flaws in thinking, which is once again harder than it sounds, but it's plausible sounding). Another part is that it just sounds less like Mary Sue type bullshit to say that the intelligence was based on something the audience knows exists than it is to say that researchers did a bunch of advanced and arcane stuff that magically resulted in a person (except in universes where conciousness is ontologically basic, of course).

Tl;dr, it makes the writing WAY easier while still being plausible to most audiences, and a bit of handwavium makes audiences less likely to actively search for flaws. Non-human-like AIs just tend to fall flat.

And, actually, I'm curious where it's stated that Grey Boy is a cauldron cape.

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IIRC Doctor Mother has a line where she says that Grey Boy was one of Cauldron's biggest mistakes.

 

[GiftofLove]

Deleted old post. Will try again after I sleep off the party. Not conductive to good thinking.

 

[Malkara]

Zach peaked his head into the labs

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Very subtle.

Nice chapter!

 

[GiftofLove]

Unfortunately, that does not seem to be supported.

Unless you can cite that, bro?

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Going to try anyway!

It's one of those things that can be inferred, but isn't to my knowledge outright stated. It has a lot to do with what Tinker powers are. The shard creates designs. It holds all the knowledge. Why would it be limited to how much you can remember when it isn't you who actually does the work or has the knowledge in the first place?

 

[evildice]

Chains of physical actions, not knowledge, perception, or judgement.

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So you think he can't use his power to defend himself, since that would be perception or judgement.

I ask because he's show to be able to defend himself from attacks quite well.

Skills are a set of knowledge and often physical or mental conditioning that allow you to analyze a scenario, adapt to it, and respond appropriately. Often a skill has hundreds of techniques involved.

Performing first aid is a skill. Playing the piano is a skill. Being good at Mortal Combat is a skill. (At least, it is if you actually know what you're doing.)

Techniques are a specific combination of actions that work in a given scenario. Performing the Heimlich Maneuver is a technique. Playing the scales is a technique. Spamming uppercut is a technique.

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So you think perception is and judgement are part of his power, since that's a required part of analysis and adaptation.

What's the actual rule, though? You're mostly just listing examples.

And, actually, I'm curious where it's stated that Grey Boy is a cauldron cape.

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https://parahumans.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/interlude-15-donation-bonus-3/

It's one of those things that can be inferred, but isn't to my knowledge outright stated. It has a lot to do with what Tinker powers are. The shard creates designs. It holds all the knowledge. Why would it be limited to how much you can remember when it isn't you who actually does the work or has the knowledge in the first place?

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Tinker facts:
- Tinkers maintain their own gear. They cannot document sufficiently to offload maintenance.
- Tinker gear can be reverse-engineered, but blueprints never exist before the gear itself. Blueprints only exist via reverse-engineering an existing object.

The facts of the setting are inconsistent with your theory of how Tinkers work.

The Tinker shard surely does have all the information and data processing which you want it to provide, but there's less than zero evidence that the interface hardware unit (i.e. human) ever gets any of that.

Also, a concrete counter-example: Kid Win's discalcula and ADD. His shard can do math. He can't. His shard can focus on a goal. He can't. His shard's mental capabilities are explicitly denied to him.

 

[GiftofLove]

Also, a concrete counter-example: Kid Win's discalcula and ADD. His shard can do math. He can't. His shard can focus on a goal. He can't. His shard's mental capabilities are explicitly denied to him.

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No, it is not inconsistent. How does any of that disagree with the shard doing all the work? If anything it backs me up.

Despite his maladies, Kid Win can still build. It doesn't matter if the Tinker has all of Dragon's code memorized, the shard will do it's stuff regardless. The shard will take in the information and the Tinker will get 'understanding' depending on what it works out.

 

[evildice]

No, it is not inconsistent. He can still build. Yes? I didn't say they got all the ability. I said the shard did the lifting. It doesn't matter if the Tinker has all of Dragon's code memorized, the shard will do it's stuff regardless. The shard will take in the information and the Tinker will get 'understanding' depending on what it works out.

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It's inconsistent with YOUR assertion. Tinker powers are not a substitute for Thinker powers.

The work that the shard does is directing the meat-interface to build an object.

The meat-interface gets no increase in memory, no extra mental ability, and no access to the fundamental knowledge embodied by the object which he or she builds.

There is no evidence that the shard gives the Tinker "understanding". Rather the opposite, since Tinkertech must be reverse-engineered to yield new designs, and since some Tinkers are compelled to build flaws into their designs.

All evidence points to your theory not being correct.

 

[Daunmi]

Being good at Mortal Combat is a skill. (At least, it is if you actually know what you're doing.)

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I've got awesome button mashing skills!

Techniques are a specific combination of actions that work in a given scenario.

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Does make me wonder if he can give himself the right techniques to teach himself a set of skills.

 

[GiftofLove]

It's inconsistent with YOUR assertion. Tinker powers are not a substitute for Thinker powers.

The work that the shard does is directing the meat-interface to build an object.

The meat-interface gets no increase in memory, no extra mental ability, and no access to the fundamental knowledge embodied by the object which he or she builds.

There is no evidence that the shard gives the Tinker "understanding". Rather the opposite, since Tinkertech must be reverse-engineered to yield new designs, and since some Tinkers are compelled to build flaws into their designs.

All evidence points to your theory not being correct.

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Are we speaking past each other? Or did I misunderstand something along the line?

Tinker shards have the knowledge. They create the designs Tinkers build. Not humans.

My understanding of your point is that we need MM's shard for more processing power, and recall, but that's stuff the shards seem to do inherently. Why? Because the shards are repositories of knowledge and are responsible for using that knowledge to create tinkertech.

I never claimed the shards give them Thinker powers. I said they don't need them because the shards do it for them. Therefore MM is a waste of a slot for freeing Dragon.

Huh, that kinda invalidates Lisa too. Damn. And Number Man, maybe. Though shards are highly specialized, so they might still be useful.

-
Someone else jumping in here would be nice. I'd like some other view points on this.

 

[TanaNari]

So you think he can't use his power to defend himself, since that would be perception or judgement.

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He CAN. He's human and has an IQ above 75, so he has the automatic ability to perceive and make judgments. But he doesn't have parahuman aptitude at it. And unless it's something he's got actual skills at, it doesn't come with the tricks, shortcuts, and expectations that experienced performers of the craft know and love.

As a half decent fighter, I know that typically in a fight, the first punch is going to be the last punch. Human psychology at its finest. This is experience and *skill* talking. I also know not to punch someone in the face. Neck. Temple perhaps if you're good. Yeah. But not the face. Too many ways to make you hurt yourself pretty bad. Faces are very sensitive to pain, but are durable and full of sharp angles to break your finger bones on. You can easily hurt yourself more than the guy you hit.

Uber wouldn't know that (unless he does- he might have taken a boxing or martial arts class at some point in his life- in which case he'd ALSO have the fighting skills mentioned above, as opposed to mere techniques). He'd know how to make a perfect fist and throw it at exactly the right angle to connect well. He wouldn't (necessarily) know not to punch faces. Or that a haymaker overextends the body and leaves you vulnerable to retaliation.

I'd know how to (and that I'm supposed to) anticipate that kind of attack, read the telegraphing, avoid the throw... because I have a legitimate skill. He would not. Of course, whether I actually *could* do jack shit to stop it considering he'd be throwing that (ill advised) punch like the best martial artist ever... no, no I wouldn't. He'd lay my ass out because he has perfect technique and I'm nowhere close to *that* level of skill.

But put him up against a professional martial artist, someone who has more than mere hobbyist skill levels... and he's gong to lose. He won't be able to keep up with an opponent who can shift stances, adapt their attacks, and avoid attacks or take a hit in order to close and do maximum damage to a vulnerable opponent, no matter how perfect his technique might be.


Making him, functionally, a really shitty copy of Contessa. She who can hold in depth conversations without knowing the language she's speaking. Even if the person she's talking to has brain damage that should make communication impossible. She knows exactly what to do and how to do it. She doesn't know WHY that's what she's supposed to do.

Same thing. In the same way filling a balloon with air and watching it zip around the room is the same thing as sending a rocket to space. Both are jet propulsion. One's just a lot better than the other.

What's the actual rule, though? You're mostly just listing examples.

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Exactly what I already told you the first time!.

"Skills are a set of knowledge and often physical or mental conditioning that allow you to analyze a scenario, adapt to it, and respond appropriately. Often a skill has hundreds of techniques involved."

"Techniques are a specific combination of actions that work in a given scenario."

How is that hard for you to understand?

Does make me wonder if he can give himself the right techniques to teach himself a set of skills.

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Don't see why not. Rapid reading and rapid memorization are techniques often used. There's a form of psychological self-hypnosis known as the "theta state" that makes one pretty susceptible to mental "programming". Used for brainwashing, and for both medical and military training. Commonly thought of as a spiritual thing in eastern spiritualism (see "zen").

 

[Daunmi]

Don't see why not. Rapid reading and rapid memorization are techniques often used. There's a form of psychological self-hypnosis known as the "theta state" that makes one pretty susceptible to mental "programming". Used for brainwashing, and for both medical and military training. Commonly thought of as a spiritual thing in eastern spiritualism (see "zen").

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Then I guess with a bit of playing around he could get every skill he wants, it'd just take a little time instead of it coming up near/instantly.

And would also require him to think of it. Wonder if anyone's suggested it to him? Probably irrelevant.

What's the actual rule, though? You're mostly just listing examples.

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Skills are a group, techniques are a thing within those groups. You learn relevant techniques so that you can say you know a single skill set.

If you work a checkout, you have 'Work Checkout' as a skill. You have things like 'scan barcode', 'process cash', 'start/end till' as techniques within that skill.

That help at all?

 

[Sheaman3773]

Amelia, Ch 393- Emma

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No threadmark at this time.

The fact that, in canon, literally zero Tinkers are ever shown to create blueprints

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Here you go:

The benefit is that you gain access to all the stuff and plans other PRT tinkers have made. I can't show you any more of that than I have, but the fact is, you'd be able to look at my blueprints as easily as I could look up yours, get inspiration…
"…Or you could look at the sort of stuff Dragon makes."

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all three of the AI-builders had massive egos (or at least, that's what I remember of Richter from this fic - might be remembering wrong, though).

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I don't recall that Richter had a notable ego. I'd say something of the opposite, given how "less than flashy" his parahuman career was. He didn't even revel in his enemies' misfortune (which he caused), he kept it all unclaimed and donated all of the gang-money he stole to charities anonymously.

Her creator was named Andrew Richter. He was a tinker with no codename, but he did good things. From his apartment in a town called Deer Lake he'd created programs and set them loose. His programs gathered information and disrupted computers to interfere with criminals of all types. They helped with research and complex programs. They emptied the bank accounts of criminal organizations and donated those funds to charities, through proxies that made every donation appear legitimate.

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I mean, he could have, and Dragon just didn't mention it, but I don't recall anything supporting it.

Besides believing that he knew better than anyone else the potential danger his creations could be. But...that seems like a justified POV, given he created them in the first place.

I'm curious where it's stated that Grey Boy is a cauldron cape.

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And here:

The broadcaster was moving in and out of trouble, relying on a pronounced projection that was being emitted by a dead shard to provide further protection. There was another entity nearby. A boy with another dead shard. Odd, that they had gravitated towards the broadcaster.

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I know there was a more explicit bit, about Contessa manipulating GB into GU's path when he was more trouble than he was worth, but I can't find it atm.
edit:
Aha, here's part:

We created the Gray Boy, selling him powers, finding ourselves unable to stop him when he went out of bounds.

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[GiftofLove]

I should probably also state how I came to the conclusion that the shards create the designs instead of just providing alien knowledge of science. Tinkers invent and improve designs extremely rapidly, and it explains the arbitrary limits they have.

Like L33t, for example.

 

[evildice]

Are we speaking past each other? Or did I misunderstand something along the line?

Tinker shards have the knowledge. They create the designs Tinkers build. Not humans.

My understanding of your point is that we need MM's shard for more processing power, and recall, but that's stuff the shards seem to do inherently. Why? Because the shards are repositories of knowledge and are responsible for using that knowledge to create tinkertech.

I never claimed the shards give them Thinker powers. I said they don't need them because the shards do it for them. Therefore MM is a waste of a slot for freeing Dragon.

Huh, that kinda invalidates Lisa too. Damn. And Number Man, maybe. Though shards are highly specialized, so they might still be useful.

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I think your confusion is that you don't see the same goal that I do.

My goal is UNDERSTANDING ALL OF DRAGON, and then using that knowledge to fix her flaws. Infinite memory will help us retain what we learn, and recall the solutions that we've already solved. That's facilitated greatly by having a cape with infinite, perfect memory. MM is one such cape.

I should probably also state how I came to the conclusion that the shards create the designs instead of just providing alien knowledge of science. Tinkers invent and improve designs extremely rapidly, and it explains the arbitrary limits they have.

Like L33t, for example.

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If Leet understood his tech, then his tech wouldn't blow up in his face.

Leet is a great example of a shard not telling the interface hardware what it's making him do.

Leet is explicit support for my argument.

He CAN.

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He can use his power in this way? Cool, I th--

But he doesn't have parahuman aptitude at it.

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--the fuck. Did you not understand the question?

Making him, functionally, a really shitty copy of Contessa. She who can hold in depth conversations without knowing the language she's speaking. Even if the person she's talking to has brain damage that should make communication impossible. She knows exactly what to do and how to do it. She doesn't know WHY that's what she's supposed to do.

Same thing. In the same way filling a balloon with air and watching it zip around the room is the same thing as sending a rocket to space. Both are jet propulsion. One's just a lot better than the other.

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It sounds like you're saying he could:
- Perfectly cook a dish he's never heard of before.
- Play a specific piece of music on a piano, in a specific style if he knew to ask for it.
- Perform an optimal workout for himself.

All of those can be considered nothing more than a sequence of specific physical steps. He couldn't write a general recipe or guide for cooking the dish, but he could cook it himself under various different conditions. He couldn't instruct someone else in playing the piece of music, nor would he necessarily make a good accompanist, but he could play the piece perfectly. He couldn't teach how to design an optimal workout, but he could ensure that he got one every day.

How is that hard for you to understand?

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If you're getting upset, we don't have to continue. I find this topic interesting, but it's not particularly high value.

 

[Snake/Eater]

Do you think it to be wise to risk Dragon's life and freedom to a outsider who has her own agenda?

 

[john doe]

Wow she has a really broken power, she can be the glue that connects all the power interactions together then we can have Amelia, Lisa, Taylor, Alexandria, and her all in one big happy horrifying amalgamation

 

[Daunmi]

Wow she has a really broken power, she can be the glue that connects all the power interactions together then we can have Amelia, Lisa, Taylor, Alexandria, and her all in one big happy horrifying amalgamation

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Well, we can have all their powers together. That doesn't mean we get them as well. We're using Amelia and Riley for that

Also, just realized that neither Taylor nor Amelia would be likely to let her have access to their power except in emergencies since that would let her in on their bond.

 

[Snake/Eater]

Butcher!Taylor,vicky

With this Taylor could be truly resurrected and use Vicky shape changing powers to alter Akaihana form,if she cannot be trusted...make her become one.they have the technology to control Butcher that they lacked last time.

 

[pepperjack]

Butcher!Taylor,vicky

With this Taylor could be truly resurrected and use Vicky shape changing powers to alter Akaihana form,if she cannot be trusted...make her become one.they have the technology to control Butcher that they lacked last time.

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Sadly, breakers and shapechangers don't work with Akaihana's power. She would only get Victoria's thinker abilities, and possibly her electrical generation (not quite sure if that power's dependent on the breaker state or not).

 

[dasstan]

Butcher!Taylor

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...This is actually pretty interesting. If all that is required for Hakuna Matata to gain access to a parahuman's powers is bodily fluid, and she were to get Taylor's, would she also gain access to the Butcher shard, by virtue of the last Butcher having been Taylor, or would she need a sample of the original Butcher? And if she did get a sample of that, would it link up to the Butcher cloud, and all the associated powers, or would she start fresh with whatever powers she's running when she gets Butchered?