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Can some tell me why he wants to go to this system? I cannot find anything on it.
Can some tell me why he wants to go to this system? I cannot find anything on it.
Yas!!!!! I love it when people take on the issue of Droid slavery. Too many people let it slide. Thank you!You said it in a way that recognizes he's a person. Not 'the AI could malfunction,' but 'how do we trust this stranger?' It's a much better attitude."
Ultimately the world looks the same to us either way (droids actually sapient vs droids emulating sapience) unless there's a definitive test, and if there were a definitive test then it wouldn't be a question for debate.
Just my 2 cents here, since this is an interesting subject.Which brings up the point that most of the Republic are used to treating apparent sapients as non-persons. The internalization that there are conditions under which this is normal and right may explain how widespread slavery is in the setting. And, of course, not developing that attitude is a good reason to chastie people, especially Jedi, for treating droids as non-persons, although Obi-wan seems to want to press the point, not come to an agreement on how to act while maintaining different beliefs.
This also describes humans. People develop skills like object permanence and other developmental milestones over time.My personal understanding is that droids just off the assembly-line are not sapient. They have no will of their own, no desires, emotions, or even self-preservation beyond the basic programmed anti-destruction features. This means they are essentially very well made furniture, having no more moral value than a particularly expensive table. It might be wasteful to destroy them, but it's not immoral. Some droids never develop past this.
We should do this to slaves too? That way the slaves only ever know what their masters want them to and they don't get ideas above their status.With this understanding of droid nature, the moral thing is therefore to wipe a droid's memory before they ever develop sapience, but to also test each droid before wiping, and emancipating any that are sapient.
No, because a natural species (to include both organic and inorganic species like those Force sensitive crystals) has self-preservation built in. One of the ways to determine whether or not it is moral to harm something is whether or not it requests to not be harmed. Nonsapient droids do not care whether or not they are destroyed, a phenomena demonstrated very consistently throughout the entire prequel trilogy and the entirety of Legends. My argument is that something is not sapient if they lack inherent self-preservation, and conversely that it is murder to destroy something that does not wish to be destroyed. This also greatly simplifies testing whether or not a droid is sapient, just ask it. If it says yes or if it's unsure, it's a person.This also describes humans. People develop skills like object permanence and other developmental milestones over time.
We should do this to slaves too? That way the slaves only ever know what their masters want them to and they don't get ideas above their status.
I'm not sure that's true., because a natural species (to include both organic and inorganic species like those Force sensitive crystals) has self-preservation built in.
I would argue that those babies eating like that is their instinct for self-preservation.I'm not sure that's true.
Newborn human babies avoid pain and discomfort. They seek nourishment and comfort.
I don't see that as an instinct for self-preservation. Plenty of babies die (heartbreakingly) because their formula is over-diluted: they will drink until their stomachs are full and then starve to death.
A desire to survive is learned.
It's certainly not a conscious decision to survive. They eat because it feels good; you can substitute other things for food as long as it still feels good to them, they don't care.I would argue that those babies eating like that is their instinct for self-preservation.
People from children to adults do all kinds of high risk activities that go directly against self preservation. I think you avoiding the animal question undermines your whole argument. A mouse preserving its life is not more sentient than a free climber or a skydiver.No, because a natural species (to include both organic and inorganic species like those Force sensitive crystals) has self-preservation built in.
"I very much don't. We are constantly aware of the Living Force, and these artificial intelligences clearly aren't alive. They don't have minds or emotions; you can sense that yourself."
Er, what? If the answer is yes, then we'd be checking for slavery and freeing slaves. If the answer is no, then we're not checking for slavery - which is the opposite of what Belenus suggested - and as evidenced by the various droid rebellions they obviously do get ideas above the status imposed upon them.We should do this to slaves too? That way the slaves only ever know what their masters want them to and they don't get ideas above their status.
I think this is our disconnect. The self-preservation routines are artificially added to the droid. Every single droid who has a self-preservation routine had that installed by a programmer. Additionally, non-sapient droids do not object to having their self-preservation routines removed by a legitimate authority. The same is not true for natural species or sapient droids, who will object strenuously.It's certainly not a conscious decision to survive. They eat because it feels good; you can substitute other things for food as long as it still feels good to them, they don't care.
If any instinct that evolved to help them survive counts as an "instinct for self-preservation," I don't see how any programmed behavior for harm avoidance given to new droids is different.
Awareness of, and corresponding fear of, death is something that comes much later in human beings. At birth it's very much just instincts to steer towards pleasure and away from pain.
And droids are incapable of violating their programming before attaining sapience.Sentience and sophonthood are determined by the ability to grow and make decisions that were not based in instinct or programming.
Yes? I'm not claiming that droids fresh off the assembly line are sentient, the same way humans fresh out of the womb aren't sentient. Babies scream and cry, following evolutionary programming. Astromechs repair and roll around. Untill both get to the developmental point where they are able to question the world around them. It's called growing up. A 6 month old doesn't know their name, let alone have the ability to grapple with complex issues. Eventually humans grow to question the world around themselves. Droids start off with lots of skills and memories implanted in them, and they clearly have the ability to form personalities, outlooks, and grow beyond what they were made to be.And droids are incapable of violating their programming before attaining sapience.
Yeah? Non sentient humans (newborns and children) are naive and will follow what they precive as legitimate authority. There are all kinds of children in cults or abusive homes who follow harmful practices. Growing up to question that is a big part of sentience. There are children of abusive houses who joined in on punishing the scapegoat child, and only with adulthood are they able to recognize they only acted the way they did because it was expected of you.Additionally, non-sapient droids do not object to having their self-preservation routines removed by a legitimate authority.
The self-preservation routines are artificially added to the droid. Every single droid who has a self-preservation routine had that installed by a programmer
How does a newborn object to being given an appetite suppressant?Additionally, non-sapient droids do not object to having their self-preservation routines removed by a legitimate authority. The same is not true for natural species or sapient droids, who will object strenuously.
Wisdom comes with age, but age does not demand wisdom be gained. You cannot say a child that does not know any better and only has information available from poor sources as non-sapient. Infants on the other hand have no method of objecting, and children object to authority all of the time. You have literally never met a child if you think they'll just do what you tell them to.Yeah? Non sentient humans (newborns and children) are naive and will follow what they precive as legitimate authority. There are all kinds of children in cults or abusive homes who follow harmful practices. Growing up to question that is a big part of sentience. There are children of abusive houses who joined in on punishing the scapegoat child, and only with adulthood are they able to recognize they only acted the way they did because it was expected of you.
I think I've reached my limit of being able to articulate what I mean. That, or there's a fundamental philosophical disagreement here. I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.How does a newborn object to being given an appetite suppressant?
Again, it doesn't seem as though the id-driven creatures that I know as newborns, match the deliberate and expressive beings you're describing.
We seem to be on the same wavelength for everything other than how to classify evolved newborns, so I'd say that's pretty good. I certainly appreciated the exchange.
I think I've reached my limit of being able to articulate what I mean. That, or there's a fundamental philosophical disagreement here. I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
Yeah, I guess I was trying to show how sentients can be warped by their surrounding. I guess I should have clarified how there are distinct levels, from infant to child to adult, marked my different developmental milestones.Infants on the other hand have no method of objecting, and children object to authority all of the time.