Exalted 3E Discussion

[Guile]

I assume Crane style is a terrestrial martial art focused on counterattacking?

 

[Nekraa]

It's a Celestial Style in 2e. Probably in 3e too. But otherwise, yes.

 

[evildice]

I can't quite agree there. I like the theme approach.

Solars are chosen of skill and virtue, and should hold powers of being very good at stuff and being shiny.

Lunars are chosen of change and survival, and should hold powers of changing and not dying.

Sidereals are chosen of fate, and should hold powers of being hard to understand and not working right. That don't like that, so they've gotten very good at finding ways to make themselves work.

Dragonblooded are born of the elements and of duty, and should hold powers of bending and always being able to kill something.

Click to shrink...

What you're listing are mostly trappings, not themes or design spaces.

There's nothing wrong with having trappings, but if you try to use them as a design guide for mechanics and limitations, you'll find you've painted yourself into a corner, just like 2e did.

Hahaha, oh wow /tg/, you are just full of good ideas.

"Hey faggots, I'm a Loremaster giving my whole circle +2 mote regen!"

"Oh crap, take him out!"

"Have I mentioned I'm also a Crane Stylist?"

"Shit!"

Click to shrink...

That's just awesome.

 

[tehelgee]

I assume Crane style is a terrestrial martial art focused on counterattacking?

Click to shrink...

Like Nekraa says, it's a Celestial style and it also has Mastery abilities that only Solars and Sidereals(through a different method) benefit from.

DB are further weakened with some of the Charms enforcing further limits.

 

[Smuthunter]

It's a Celestial Style in 2e. Probably in 3e too. But otherwise, yes.

Click to shrink...

Kinda yes, kinda no.

The split of martial arts into distinct TMA and CMA tiers is gone. In place of that are two keywords: Celestial and Mastery. Celestial indicates that a style is so potent that DBs can't completely master it and get a slightly reduced benefit for taking that charm. Immaculates still have ways around this like they did in 2e. Mastery, on the other hand, indicates a secondary power that MA charms provide to ability-based Exalts, those being Solars Abyssals and Infernals. Sidereals can access these powers through methods that aren't elaborated on.

Also, martial arts are much more powerful in general to make up for the fact that you now have to split your martial arts proficiency like you did with Craft in 2e. Single Point Shining Into The Void, the Kenshin-ish iaido style, gives your sword a second initiative track when you turn on the form charm for instance, so you gain twice as many attacks per turn.

 

[tehelgee]

Let's list what abilities the Solars have exclusive access to.

Supernal Abilities, which allow them to very quickly gain supremacy in the chosen ability.
MA Mastery effects which make their MA charms better than anyone else's, with the possible exception of the Sidereals.
Solar Circle Sorcery.
Innate Evocations, which are Evocations from equipment that become permanent Charm like effects for the Solar, usable with any artifacts of similar function.
N/A artifact construction.
Wyld Shaping Technique notes that only Solars have the will to shape the Wyld as they wish.

And there may be others I'm not remembering.

Solars are undeniably the top dogs in 3e.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

What you're listing are mostly trappings, not themes or design spaces.

There's nothing wrong with having trappings, but if you try to use them as a design guide for mechanics and limitations, you'll find you've painted yourself into a corner, just like 2e did.

Click to shrink...

Mm? How so?
I view them as high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.

Let's list what abilities the Solars have exclusive access to.

Supernal Abilities, which allow them to very quickly gain supremacy in the chosen ability.
MA Mastery effects which make their MA charms better than anyone else's, with the possible exception of the Sidereals.
Solar Circle Sorcery.
Innate Evocations, which are Evocations from equipment that become permanent Charm like effects for the Solar, usable with any artifacts of similar function.
N/A artifact construction.
Wyld Shaping Technique notes that only Solars have the will to shape the Wyld as they wish.

And there may be others I'm not remembering.

Solars are undeniably the top dogs in 3e.

Click to shrink...

I have high hopes that when we see Lunars, we'll think that it's worth losing the Sun's advantages to play with the Moon's toys.

 

[tehelgee]

I have high hopes that when we see Lunars, we'll think that it's worth losing the Sun's advantages to play with the Moon's toys.

Click to shrink...

I think Lunars are going to be defined by a faction split.

Something like: "We ave a duty to Luna and to Creation to aid the Solars!" vs "No, fuck that, we don't need anybody, we can save Creation all by ourselves!"

 

[Valette-Serafina]

I think Lunars are going to be defined by a faction split.

Something like: "We ave a duty to Luna and to Creation to aid the Solars!" vs "No, fuck that, we don't need anybody, we can save Creation all by ourselves!"

Click to shrink...

In the E setting, maybe.
I'd prefer that they weren't defined by their connection to the Solar Exalted this time, though

 

[tehelgee]

In the E setting, maybe.
I'd prefer that they weren't defined by their connection to the Solar Exalted this time, though

Click to shrink...

Considering the bond is given only oblique references once or twice, I don't think they will be. I think it will be an option for those that want it, of course, but I don't think it comes standard anymore.

 

[evildice]

Mm? How so?
I view them as high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.

Click to shrink...

My formulations were exactly that: high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.

They're intended to be both inclusive and exclusive, to both claim design space and deny themselves other design space. They are interwoven, but not strictly hierarchical. They are framed in roles, with none stealing or pervasively overshadowing the roles of the others.

For example, let's look at Solar vs. Lunar:

Solar - General, Priest, Sorcerer-King
Lunar - Champion, Special Ops, Trailblazer

In a one-on-one fight, who should win? The Champion. That's what being a Champion is all about. If you go 1-vs-1 against a Lunar, all else being equal, you will lose.

If the Lunar does this by changing shape, that's fine. If the Lunar does this without changing shape, that's also fine. Changing shape is a trapping: not a role, and not a design pillar. Changing shape tells you nothing about whether you'll win a conflict or lose it. It's an decoration, not a pillar.

That's a problem 2e had: it mistook decorations for pillars.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

My formulations were exactly that: high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.

They're intended to be both inclusive and exclusive, to both claim design space and deny themselves other design space. They are interwoven, but not strictly hierarchical. They are framed in roles, with none stealing or pervasively overshadowing the roles of the others.

For example, let's look at Solar vs. Lunar:

Solar - General, Priest, Sorcerer-King
Lunar - Champion, Special Ops, Trailblazer

In a one-on-one fight, who should win? The Champion. That's what being a Champion is all about. If you go 1-vs-1 against a Lunar, all else being equal, you will lose.

If the Lunar does this by changing shape, that's fine. If the Lunar does this without changing shape, that's also fine. Changing shape is a trapping: not a role, and not a design pillar. Changing shape tells you nothing about whether you'll win a conflict or lose it. It's an decoration, not a pillar.

That's a problem 2e had: it mistook decorations for pillars.

Click to shrink...

Ah.

I fundamentally disagree with your base assertion. The Exalted should not be restricted into certain roles.
Being a Solar is not the same as being a Paladin. If the Solar Exalted cannot represent such diverse inspirations as Sarutobi Sasuke, Odysseus, Achilies, King Arther, Gilgamesh, Merlin, Robin Hood, Odin, Heracles, and Jeanne d'Arc, then they have lost their original concept.

Every kind of Exalt is meant to be able to hold a number of roles. That's always been the case, because mixed circles are not the assumption the game makes.
Limiting the Exalted like that would be a change for no purpose, with no ground. It's not necessary, it doesn't fit the setting, and it's not going to make the game better.

---

So, apparently the devs didn't think that charm bloat was a problem. They split up Essence Arrow Attack.
(All still useful, but that's gonna eat up a lot of space on character sheets. I hope there's an official extra charms sheet. (I hope the character sheet's more than two pages this time.))

 

[evildice]

Every kind of Exalt is meant to be able to hold a number of roles. That's always been the case, because mixed circles are not the assumption the game makes.

Click to shrink...

Yes, this is a thing I dislike. I've always played with and run for groups where people were more interested in NOT being restricted to only one type of Exalt.

Limiting the Exalted like that would be a change for no purpose, with no ground. It's not necessary, it doesn't fit the setting, and it's not going to make the game better.

Click to shrink...

And this is where you are absolutely wrong.

The setting explicitly says that things worked best when Solars, Lunars, Sidereals and Dragonbloods worked together. That's how the Primordial War was won. That's how the glories of the First Age were built.

And yet, every edition gives no particular impetus to actually do anything like that.

The game's own mechanics have been untrue to the setting.

My formulation is a fix for that.

 

[tehelgee]

Yes, this is a thing I dislike. I've always played with and run for groups where people were more interested in NOT being restricted to only one type of Exalt.

And this is where you are absolutely wrong.

The setting explicitly says that things worked best when Solars, Lunars, Sidereals and Dragonbloods worked together. That's how the Primordial War was won. That's how the glories of the First Age were built.

And yet, every edition gives no particular impetus to actually do anything like that.

The game's own mechanics have been untrue to the setting.

My formulation is a fix for that.

Click to shrink...

Working together doesn't mean what you think it means.

Solars were the leaders, Lunars were their seconds, Sids were their untrustworthy advisors, DB were their pissy minions. Working together meant they were working towards the same ends instead of against each other. At no point were they ever equals. Solars were always acknowledged as the supreme Exalted, even during the War.

And, in a mixed game, who wants to play a character that absolutely cannot ever compare to one or more of the others? In D&D, it'd be like playing a fighter in a group of wizards/clerics/druids/psions. They'd never actually be useful unless they were the only option. They'd always be second class. And nobody wants to play that.

 

[Stroth]

My formulations were exactly that: high concepts, the central pillars of each Exaltation.

They're intended to be both inclusive and exclusive, to both claim design space and deny themselves other design space. They are interwoven, but not strictly hierarchical. They are framed in roles, with none stealing or pervasively overshadowing the roles of the others.

For example, let's look at Solar vs. Lunar:

Solar - General, Priest, Sorcerer-King
Lunar - Champion, Special Ops, Trailblazer

In a one-on-one fight, who should win? The Champion. That's what being a Champion is all about. If you go 1-vs-1 against a Lunar, all else being equal, you will lose.

If the Lunar does this by changing shape, that's fine. If the Lunar does this without changing shape, that's also fine. Changing shape is a trapping: not a role, and not a design pillar. Changing shape tells you nothing about whether you'll win a conflict or lose it. It's an decoration, not a pillar.

That's a problem 2e had: it mistook decorations for pillars.

Click to shrink...

I... I can't even begin to understand how you come to this conclusion. The 'pillars' you describe are just affectations and decoration. Things that happened because of politics. Politics that ended with the Usurpation.

The Core concepts, the 'Pillars' as you call them, of exalts are the same as the Incarne that empowers them. The core of a Solar's abilities are Perfection and Victory because that is what Ignis Divine represents. The core of a Lunar's abilities are Endurance and Adaptation because that's what Luna represents.

Being an Exalt isn't just being given power, it's being tied to a Conceptual Being on a fundamental level. And taking part of its concepts into yourself. But concepts can be set to many applications. Lunars can become great kings because they Adapt to the situation. Solars can become master thieves because they reach for Perfection in all that they do.

 

[Smuthunter]

Well 3e seems to be devoting itself to closing the gap between the different "tiers." If you look closely, you'll notice the dragonbloods have certain advantages they didn't have before -- they can access Solar-exclusive evocations with enough training, which no other splat has been indicated to be capable of. Couple that with the Realm sitting on the biggest supply of artifacts in the world and suddenly the playing field looks a lot more balanced than it did before.

 

[Nekraa]

Err, that's pretty much always been Exalted's conceit. An individual Solar is greater than any other Exalt. Lunars and Sidereals comes not far behind, with Dragonblooded being the individually weakest but most numerous.

That's not to say that the other Exalted are weak, but the Solars has always been the first amongst equals.

That's what the whole Usurpation and the later decline was about. Without the glorious genious of the Solars, they (Sidereals, Lunars and Dragonblooded. Not helped by Sidereals going in hiding by own choice, and the Dragonblooded + Sidereals hunting the Lunars) couldn't maintain the Solar-created wonders.

 

[tehelgee]

If you look closely, you'll notice the dragonbloods have certain advantages they didn't have before -- they can access Solar-exclusive evocations with enough training, which no other splat has been indicated to be capable of.

Click to shrink...

Got a source for that? Cause by my reading, the only Solar exclusive part of Evocations is Innate Evocations - nobody else can get those.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Yes, this is a thing I dislike. I've always played with and run for groups where people were more interested in NOT being restricted to only one type of Exalt.

Click to shrink...

So have I, but I've also come to realise that just because someone really really wants to play an alchemical, doesn't mean I need to drop my plans for it.

Also, I'm not arguing for non-mixed circles being mandatory. I'm arguing for them being valid.
See, if every Exalt can take any role, then a Solar/Solar/Lunar/Infernal/Sidereal circle can work just as well as a pure Solar circle.

If I want to run a Pure Lunars game, set before the return of the Solar Exalted, my players should not be handicapped for concept. That's not a thing that I want, ever.

And this is where you are absolutely wrong.

The setting explicitly says that things worked best when Solars, Lunars, Sidereals and Dragonbloods worked together. That's how the Primordial War was won. That's how the glories of the First Age were built.

And yet, every edition gives no particular impetus to actually do anything like that.

Click to shrink...

Beyond the different processes to the same tasks, the synergy of multiple Exalts working together, and the whole "All the Exalted working together" thing?

No impetus, you say.

I'm personalty of the opinion that Solars do their best work when they don't have Sidereal death squads kicking down the door every few months, and that Dragonblooded soldiers would rather have the Horrible Shape-Changing Silver Killing Machine on their side, rather than the inverse.

The game's own mechanics have been untrue to the setting.

My formulation is a fix for that.

Click to shrink...

You suggest restriction and limitation.
In essence, reduction.
I disagree with the fundamentals of your idea. At the very least aim to define the roles positively.

Rather than taking away Solar stealth, give Lunars better stealth; Like the ability to turn into any animal that might be in the are- Oh.
Or give the Sidereals some kind of powerful information gathering Char- Oh.
Well, give the Dragonblooded some teamwork bas- Well.

Looks like that's already been done, huh.

Working together doesn't mean what you think it means.

Solars were the leaders, Lunars were their seconds, Sids were their untrustworthy advisors, DB were their pissy minions. Working together meant they were working towards the same ends instead of against each other. At no point were they ever equals. Solars were always acknowledged as the supreme Exalted, even during the War.

And, in a mixed game, who wants to play a character that absolutely cannot ever compare to one or more of the others? In D&D, it'd be like playing a fighter in a group of wizards/clerics/druids/psions. They'd never actually be useful unless they were the only option. They'd always be second class. And nobody wants to play that.

Click to shrink...

It's all about the side stuff.
Solars should have the best raw power. They lead, rule, look really shiny.

But, they can't just fly into another country without someone noticing, not like a Lunar. They don't have four sisters, each a fellow martial artist of equal skill. They'll never make a city dodge, not unless it's also a giant robot.

Solar charms should be linear, working directly without bending their meanings. A Solar can shoot an arrow really well, but can't kill someone by shooting them with an apology.

That's their limit. They have the mother of all hammers, so if it's a nail, they hammer. Everyone else gets a hammer and someother tool, except the Sidereals who get a computer and have to order stuff off the internet.

 

[evildice]

Working together doesn't mean what you think it means.

Solars were the leaders, Lunars were their seconds, Sids were their untrustworthy advisors, DB were their pissy minions. Working together meant they were working towards the same ends instead of against each other. At no point were they ever equals. Solars were always acknowledged as the supreme Exalted, even during the War.

Click to shrink...

You're not reading what I'm saying, since it ought to be pretty obvious that General and King are not "equal" to Lieutenant or Soldier.

So whatever you're trying to argue against, it's not what I actually said.

Maybe you're not so good at mind-reading?

And, in a mixed game, who wants to play a character that absolutely cannot ever compare to one or more of the others? In D&D, it'd be like playing a fighter in a group of wizards/clerics/druids/psions. They'd never actually be useful unless they were the only option. They'd always be second class. And nobody wants to play that.

Click to shrink...

That's an excellent argument against making Solars better than everyone at everything.

---

I... I can't even begin to understand how you come to this conclusion. The 'pillars' you describe are just affectations and decoration. Things that happened because of politics. Politics that ended with the Usurpation.

Click to shrink...

Being the best possible General isn't an affectation, and it's certainly not a mere political contrivance. It's a matter of pure merit.

The Core concepts, the 'Pillars' as you call them, of exalts are the same as the Incarne that empowers them. The core of a Solar's abilities are Perfection and Victory because that is what Ignis Divine represents. The core of a Lunar's abilities are Endurance and Adaptation because that's what Luna represents.

Being an Exalt isn't just being given power, it's being tied to a Conceptual Being on a fundamental level. And taking part of its concepts into yourself. But concepts can be set to many applications. Lunars can become great kings because they Adapt to the situation. Solars can become master thieves because they reach for Perfection in all that they do.

Click to shrink...

Let me get this straight.

Sol Invictus was never a thief or a trickster.
Luna is a consummate thief and a trickster.

You think that being tide to Sol's "conceptual being" ought to make you a better thief than that Lunar.

IMHO that's a flaw.

 

[Smuthunter]

Got a source for that? Cause by my reading, the only Solar exclusive part of Evocations is Innate Evocations - nobody else can get those.

Click to shrink...

-edited: No directly copying material.-

 

[tehelgee]

It's all about the side stuff.
Solars should have the best raw power. They lead, rule, look really shiny.

But, they can't just fly into another country without someone noticing, not like a Lunar. They don't have four sisters, each a fellow martial artist of equal skill. They'll never make a city dodge, not unless it's also a giant robot.

Solar charms should be linear, working directly without bending their meanings. A Solar can shoot an arrow really well, but can't kill someone by shooting them with an apology.

That's their limit. They have the mother of all hammers, so if it's a nail, they hammer. Everyone else gets a hammer and someother tool, except the Sidereals who get a computer and have to order stuff off the internet.

Click to shrink...

I can agree with that.

That's an excellent argument against making Solars better than everyone at everything.

Click to shrink...

That's not a version of Exalted I ever want to play.

-edited: No directly copying material.-

Click to shrink...

The rules for Evocations doesn't back that up, though. Maybe it'll change when the DB splat drops, but right now the rules don't support that fluff.

 

[evildice]

Also, I'm not arguing for non-mixed circles being mandatory. I'm arguing for them being valid.

Click to shrink...

In my formulation, single-splat groups are valid. They just play differently from each other.

Like, if the Solar group needs to infiltrate a location? They don't do this by dressing up as ninjas under cover of night. They have other, distinctly Solar, ways of doing things.

You suggest restriction and limitation.
In essence, reduction.
I disagree with the fundamentals of your idea. At the very least aim to define the roles positively.

Click to shrink...

I suggest honesty in design. Not everyone can do everything in exactly the same ways.

Rather than taking away Solar stealth, give Lunars better stealth; Like the ability to turn into any animal that might be in the are- Oh.

Click to shrink...

See, this is exactly the problem with Lunars.

They turn into an animal and it doesn't help.

Victory and Perfection are better than "turning into an animal", and they always will be, and that means there's no point in turning into an animal.

It's a fundamental disconnect in the 2e mechanics, and I don't want to see it carried forward.

Lunar: "I can turn into a bird and fly over that mountain! It's a tactical limitation but it's super cool!"
Solar: "I can just jump over that mountain. I suffer no tactical limitations and move faster than you did."

 

[Nekraa]

Turning into an animal is it's own point! :<

 

[tehelgee]

-snip-

Click to shrink...

It should be noted that Solars don't seem to really embody perfection anymore. They're better than everyone, but not unbeatable.

 

[evildice]

Turning into an animal is it's own point! :<

Click to shrink...

Well, my point is that it should help you win sometimes.

It should be noted that Solars don't seem to really embody perfection anymore. They're better than everyone, but not unbeatable.

Click to shrink...

Until the other splats come out, we can't even be sure of that, but yeah. It seems like 3e is a step in the right direction.

 

[Valette-Serafina]

Sol Invictus was never a thief or a trickster.
Luna is a consummate thief and a trickster.

You think that being tide to Sol's "conceptual being" ought to make you a better thief than that Lunar.

IMHO that's a flaw.

Click to shrink...

The Sun is a better thief than Luna.
Oh, he doesn't do it much, no. But he is. He stole Yu Shan.

See, he's the Unconquered Sun. If it's a thing, he does it better than anyone else.

Luna is not so easily pinned down, by the way. She's a thief, but He'll never steal nor lie except She did just a few moments ago.
Luna is all possible Moons, not just a trickster archtype or a barbarian hunter.

In my formulation, single-splat groups are valid. They just play differently from each other.

Like, if the Solar group needs to infiltrate a location? They don't do this by dressing up as ninjas under cover of night. They have other, distinctly Solar, ways of doing things.

Click to shrink...

Yes. In the group I run, one of them (A ninja) infiltrates under cover of night, and then the wandering monk walks in the front gate and breaks everything.
Both Solars.

I suggest honesty in design. Not everyone can do everything in exactly the same ways.

Click to shrink...

I never said they'd do it in the same ways. I said that they take the same roles.

See, this is exactly the problem with Lunars.

They turn into an animal and it doesn't help.

Victory and Perfection are better than "turning into an animal", and they always will be, and that means there's no point in turning into an animal.

It's a fundamental disconnect in the 2e mechanics, and I don't want to see it carried forward.

Lunar: "I can turn into a bird and fly over that mountain! It's a tactical limitation but it's super cool!"
Solar: "I can just jump over that mountain. I suffer no tactical limitations and move faster than you did."

Click to shrink...

... Yes, it does help. It helps quite a bit. For one thing, every Lunar can do the bird thing, not just the ones with Athletics 5 and four or five Charms dedicated to it. Also, they can change direction in the air without a stunt and the risk of hitting the ground wrong.
Also, stay airborn.

Also, who's gonna be suspicious of a bird flying into the realm camp, right outside the general's tent?
No stealth needed. Just go there.

It's not just animals, though. It's also changing internally, control of the character's mind. It's becoming an Elemental. It's wielding the powers of Demons and Gods. It's becoming immune to non-magical blades.

And it's also having more heath levels than you know what to do with, and regenerating in combat time. Having something to negate wound penalties, and taking a few hits becomes something that can work, if you pick them.

It's never needing to pick a primary combat ability, because you use Dexterity Charms.

Look at everything Lunars had, and then tell me that they wouldn't have been totally awesome if they'd gotten half as much attention as the Solars.

 

[evildice]

See, he's the Unconquered Sun. If it's a thing, he does it better than anyone else.

Click to shrink...

This is toxic to game design.

It's also unnecessary. It's never been a requirement that the Generals and Kings are better than their underlings at each underling's own job.

Luna is not so easily pinned down, by the way. She's a thief, but He'll never steal nor lie except She did just a few moments ago.
Luna is all possible Moons, not just a trickster archtype or a barbarian hunter.

Click to shrink...

Nobody said s/he is "just" a thief, so I have to ask if you're trying to attack an argument which was not actually made.

Yes. In the group I run, one of them (A ninja) infiltrates under cover of night, and then the wandering monk walks in the front gate and breaks everything.
Both Solars.

Click to shrink...

I know. That's the thing I've said that I dislike: the power of Sol Invictus doing things which are very un-Sol Invictus-like because "I Win Everything" allows everything.

You clearly disagree about this being a problem, and you're not engaging with my arguments -- you're talking past me -- so maybe let's not continue.

 

[Stroth]

I know. That's the thing I've said that I dislike: the power of Sol Invictus doing things which are very un-Sol Invictus-like because "I Win Everything" allows everything.

Click to shrink...

How is that un-Sol Invictus-like? He hides his glory every single day. That's what night is. That's why Night Castes are the stealth specialists.

There's nothing stopping him from keeping the sun in the sky all the time, he chooses to not do so and hide away his glory so that the other Incarne can display their power half of the time.

 

[evildice]

How is that un-Sol Invictus-like? He hides his glory every single day. That's what night is. That's why Night Castes are the stealth specialists.

Click to shrink...

Night Caste is a great example of a bad idea getting enshrined specifically because the designers needed to check that box on the mechanical grid.

The main creativity I see going on in Solar Stealth is the rationalization that the Sun should somehow win at darkness.

There's nothing stopping him from keeping the sun in the sky all the time, he chooses to not do so and hide away his glory so that the other Incarne can display their power half of the time.

Click to shrink...

Letting other people shine is an admirable thing to do.

Hey, here's an idea: why not make the whole game like that on purpose?