Time to ride out again. Now, where did I leave my fez? Ah. Shame it's awkward wearing a fez and headphones at the same time, but I'm sat down at a chromebook so I shall make it work. Also, again, I apologise for the rant.
You seem to have taken this as legitimate hostility to his story, which it isn't. As I said, I enjoy his story and I don't want others to not read it. I just want those who are critical of it to actually criticize parts of it that matter.
Firstly, the more tired I am, the more waspish I am. The less time I've had since my morning caffeine has kicked in means the more. And coping strategies of music, or sadly realising I can't wear a fez and headphones at the same time, at that early stage don't work.
But, I
like this story. And I've seen
things with other stories. Therefore, I'm going to defend it and make sure those other
things that have happened don't happen again. No, I'm not mentioning those
things by name in case it happens again. Because parts of the internet are why we cannot have nice things.
Rational fiction tends to have three outcomes, and yes, Cliff is clearly doing rational fiction, even if he vehemently denies it.
1. The antagonist is outmatched by the protagonist.
2. The protagonist outplays the antagonist.
3. The protagonist is 'subversively' defeated.
From what I've gathered from this thread since I decided Rational Fic was a rotting rancid dead cow that it has now gone Xianxia-like and makes me want to read it even less? Does not make me forget why I left that dead cow to the biohazard teams to clean up.
Things I remember from the rational fic that started the whole thing that I'm also not mentioning the name of for reasons. Also, no, if you want to discuss that Rational Fic if you want to defend it, then PM me. Let's not go wildly off topic, I'm just having to do this because this fic is being claimed to be a rational fic. But things this fic does not have:
1. Technobabbling and using science terms as buzz words in ways that are wrong.
2. Having someone trying to be a scientist when they are clearly not.
3. Eleven year olds not being remotely eleven year old like.
4. Writing fanfiction about a book you never actually read because you just want to cash in on that fandom.
5. Making references to other fandoms in mean swipes.
6. Making up things about Transfiguration.
7. Having a protag ignore the whole civilisation that has been studying magic to do their own independent research in a way that is not proper science.
And I could keep going, but for all our sakes I'm going to stop there. But, that the rotting dead rancid cow that started Rational Fics, was an unstable radioactive foundation over a major fault line and I'm happy to have noped out of it. Also if you want to defend it, PM me.
Like how I'm happy to skip fanfics that happily proclaim they bash people as a badge of honour, which is the same level of badness as Rational Fics even if it's different.
Naturally, this applies to a lot of fiction in general, but the tendency of rational fiction to have overly-competent antagonists and a focus on the personal while having a cursory macro-look leads to a major cut in mass social dynamics. Cliff's stories don't at all focus on how the consequences of the plot affects people beyond the most superficial ways.
So you're claiming that something that applies to a lot of fiction in general applies to this fanfic? [Sarcasm]Say it isn't so![/Sarcasm]
Now, would you prefer incompetent antagonists that an MC bumbles about and then miracuously defeats due to a Deus Ex Machina? Or an incompetent antagonist that is defeated by a compentent Protag? While I wouldn't say the antagonists in cliff's fics are
overly-competent. They're just competent, it's more that other fiction will have an antagonist claimed to be competent then do something stupid to let the hero win.
While, which stories have you read by Cliff? Because in his other Celestial Forge story there was implications in the post apocalyptic USA of things happening in the macro, while focusing on the personal because it was the post apocalypse and there wasn't available that much macro. While with his Unconquerable story there were things that happened due to his protags affecting things by being there and causing consquences.
It was just
Shadowrun. If you cause too many waves on the macro scale the corps are going to act. So, there was a need for subtlety, while having a power that required control to mkae that subtlety.
Stories do tend to focus on the personal, but they usually stay in the personal view when they do that.
Cliff clear doesn't, but he treats masses of people as some vague blob of the same worldview as him, with small groups of dissidents as opposition. This isn't factual at all, considering the diversity of views that humanity has.
The Shadowrun fic wasn't small groups of dissidents, it was nearly all the effing corporate leaders of the corps wanting more money. While in the Rifts fic, you have the nazi-like group which is the biggest major power as opposition, even if there were other groups.
The problem isn't that it's a vague blob of humanity. It's more it's a shame those stories died before we could see the part where those things happen on the macro.
While, there have been earlier Jump Chains that Cliff was cutting his teeth on, and there's one where
things I am not going to mention happen to end that story. No, not talking about it unless it summons
things.
Because the ideal 'lawful good' society, quite frankly, doesn't exist. I won't get too into it to avoid trouble, but his view of competence and utility in positions of power, is frankly wrong.
He's outgrown the idea that 'the man' is always out get you, while not outgrowing the idea that competence is rewarded rather than used and isolated. Or that competence is really more a result of the people below a person doing the work, while the person on top gets to claim it all because they're the one paying them.
And I can't argue this without violating the rules, because using a fictional example is just a fictional example. If you can't use a fictional example, then can you please not bring up stuff we cannot talk about?
It's not that bad, because it's an unfortunately common aspect of rational fiction.
Can someone who knows more about rational fic answer this? I don't know enough, but from what others have said in thread that is not what fics that call themselves rational fics have evolved into.
Also, nobody, quite frankly is lawful good, because that's a D&D concept and not reality.
Lawful Good, is a shorthand for not writing at least a whole paragraph about a society or civilisation or such.
Like how Particle Physics goes from GCSE Models, to A-Level Models, to Uni Models, it's about teaching something close enough to what people need to know.
Using the type alignment chart is a quick shorthand that spares me typing
more words in these rants. Can you understand that I want to not type too many words? Even if I can't resist then typing a 1000+ Words in an argument.
There is trust in governmental structures while desiring to maximize utility, but that's as close as you can get, and more people claim that than actually following through with it. People also fundamentally act different in power, because of its incentives, it makes you want to retain and strengthen it as much as you can, because you were selected for it and kept in it.
Note, that this does not mean competence. Arguably, the people at the top tend to be the least competent, while those below them have to fix their mistakes and soothe their egos.
Can't use a fictional example for this of the top of my head, so could you
please stop bringing up things we can't talk about?
Rational fiction doesn't need to claim to be rationalist in order to earn the designation. People who actually claim to be writing rational fiction tend to write not very rational fiction at all. But even within the 10% of cream to the 90% of Sturgeon's Law.
Also, Cliff may or may not have been in the explicit rationalist movement, but he clearly has gotten to the same conclusions as they did. Which really isn't that hard, because where he comes from in society and the places he roams on the internet does encourage those views.
So Rational Fic is not Rational Fic and Fics that are not Rational Fics are actually Rational Fics? If an elephant is not an elephant then why do people call it an elephant? Are you going to call the First Rational Fic not a Rational Fic then? At which point the whole thing breaks down into even more rotting and putrid beef from a dead cow.
Also, please see my comment about the rotting rancid dead cow about what I know about Rational Fics, and can someone else with more experience with Rationalist Fic going Xianxia like please give me a little help? And, just to note, as most Xianxia makes me go elsewhere on the internet, that notion does not make me want to read rational fics?
Because, quite frankly, I don't think a teenager who just recently graduated and is now pressured to save the universe is going to have the best decision-making, even if she is hyper-intelligent. I do think that Cliff did a good job in making sure to write that her support structure kept her at least semi-sane. I think Cliff wrote an actually good example of how she isn't making good decision-making, because she burned the nanobots. It was something that had pressure for her to do something horrifying and with everything beating down on her, she threw it away because she knew that she couldn't trust herself.
Arguably, while others complain about that, it's arguably the most admirable point of writing in this fic, but I legitimately don't know if that's intentional.
Ah.
That comment should have been better written as:
While is it better to drop SB Competence when it usually impacts the narrative in a bad way and why I don't usually read stories for it. And no, if this is as clear as day for you then I'm wondering why I'm currently living under a volcanic eruption when my country has no volcanoes near it to blot out the sky Mordor style.
Be aware that ranting is hard and I have typed too many words with my poor typing fingers. I am only human. Regardless of how I want that disc drive upgrade and firmware update.
Apologies. Also, will need to double check this post before posting. Stupid mortal frailties of being human!
I read it for the world-building and world-expansion too, as well as the explanation of perks and powers. It's why I enjoy reading his builds, even if I'm more of a narrative-focused jumper myself.
I don't claim to know everything about him either, so maybe there are exceptions to my conceptualization of him. I do think that his antagonists are arguably his weakest link.
You haven't read his Rifts fic then. I understand competely why that fic is dead, but that still doesn't mean the heart doesn't miss what the brain knows is gone. If you want a competent evil empire that you want punched into a duck by a passing sidereal if the universe was to be kind, that's the fic for it.
Yes, but the fact that there is a dedicated genius patrol is a bit much. I think it'd be more likely that there'd be a small sub-department of talent scouts, rather than what seems to be high-level people. Though this is GURPS, and obviously within true RPG fashion, a genius patrol does seem like a clear way to bring the party together.
I feel the need to quote the first chapter:
One world. One world set against an empire of thousands. One lone world set against trillions of Human and alien beings who do not share our history, any of our cultures, or any of our values. Victory seems impossible. Perhaps the best we can expect is survival. Yet to achieve even that, we must be... one world.
– Kanshi Bannerjee, first Secretary-General of the Terran Confederation (2124)
The Genius Patrol is Earth trying to survive, take every advantage they could have and use it to punch the Vilani in the nose.
Cliff writes intelligent characters decently enough, which is why I have better standards for him than I do most writers. Is that fair? Probably not, but when we have better standards for a person, when they don't live up to them, we're disappointed when normally we'd accept it.
It's you're compalaining about near effective omnipresent tropes when regarding genius, like you're complaining the word apple has an A in it. And this is Forge Granted Genius, the perks as written imply those tropes at the very least.
Yes, I am a hypocrite. But I'm trying to say this as a matter of legitimate care for his stories. I've read them enough to know that readers tend to badger him going down a corner and he runs up against a dead-end, thus ending several stories before they can truly reach completion.
He is a better writer than me, but he still has his own blindspots by necessity. He's human, not perfect as you say.
So you're suggesting he doesn't listen to his reader base when he wants to, and to just completely ignore his readers? Also, the thing I'm not talking about is one of those stories that ended due to reasons I'm not going to go into to not invoke them.
And, Cliff? If you're reading this rant? May I again just apologise for being annoying in general?
The flaws make it a Cliff story to be honest, because they complement its strengths. There are greater flaws than simply writing dates wrong, but that just means he has greater strengths to make up for them and use them. That's the admirable thing about his writing.
And as someone who isn't seeing the flaws you're pointing out, I feel the need to argue against it. Because I like the story too much not to do so.
Also, again, apolgies for typing worse than better when making an argument earlier. Also, apologies for this rant here.
