So what's really going on in Worm?

[Guardian54]

The gang population of Chicago in 2012 was estimated at 150,000, or 5.5% of its population of 2,714,000.

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The reason I gave 1500 per gang for 1.2% of population is because with cape backup friction is much more likely to result in large amounts of violence.

Which means Taylor should be astounded if she's not being lulled to sleep by the sounds of gunfire on any given night.

If Winslow picks up 10 guys per gang per year and is not among the worst schools in Brockton Bay (Note that the worst schools would be well-known, instead Taylor only mentions Clarendon, Immaculata, and Arcadia which are all better than Winslow, giving the impression that Winslow is the worst or close) then 10% attrition per annum would pad up up to 4000 members total per gang.

Or 12,000 gangers for 375K total population, just over 3%.

But given the capes backing the gangers (and seemingly breathing down their necks) that would make the entire city boil over into violence quite regularly with how the gangers in canon are seen to behave (i.e. most gangers we see are more prone to violence than real-life gangs where a notable proportion of the members in logistics and such are only peripherally aware they are technically in a gang and are just doing relatively normal business, like how ABB's Ruby Dreams casino staff would be most of the time) unless there's a very solid general agreement that people actually mostly stick to.

 

[Chastity]

The reason I gave 1500 per gang for 1.2% of population is because with cape backup friction is much more likely to result in large amounts of violence.

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Or, like, not?

It's a basic assumption of the setting that MAD works for a mass distribution of actors, at least better than "nothing at all." It's the entire principle behind the Unwritten Rules, for example. If you don't accept that assumption, then the setting collapses for a whole lot more reasons than there being slightly too few gang members.

I mean, when everybody got together to smash the ABB, they didn't kill Oni Lee, Bakuda, or Lung. Did they even kill any goons? And that was a huge explosion of violence, far out of the ordinary, that precipitated an Endbringer attack.

But given the capes backing the gangers (and seemingly breathing down their necks) that would make the entire city boil over into violence quite regularly with how the gangers in canon are seen to behave (i.e. most gangers we see are more prone to violence than real-life gangs where a notable proportion of the members in logistics and such are only peripherally aware they are technically in a gang and are just doing relatively normal business, like how ABB's Ruby Dreams casino staff would be most of the time) unless there's a very solid general agreement that people actually mostly stick to.

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Why wouldn't it just be that the ones we see in canon are the more violent ones, because if they're nonviolent, then they wind up like the people handling the ABB's drugs, briefly mentioned and brushed aside?

 

[pepperjack]

Do we know what canonically happens with any insects in Taylor's control radius when she is unconscious?

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Yes, we do. It is a plot point on more than one occasion that, when she loses consciousness, her bugs continue carrying out her last orders to the best of their ability. This is true regardless of the reason that she happens to be unconscious.

Later on in the story, when she's been an active cape for longer (and, possibly, has formed a deeper connection with what Bonesaw would call her 'agent'), there is an incident where she loses consciousness and, while she's out, her bugs carry out helpful tasks that she is pretty sure she didn't order, but is glad that they performed anyway.

 

[Valor]

The Entities uses Shards. Cauldron uses Agents. Bonesaw uses Passengers. Nomenclature.

 

[Jonakhensu]

Yes, we do. It is a plot point on more than one occasion that, when she loses consciousness, her bugs continue carrying out her last orders to the best of their ability. This is true regardless of the reason that she happens to be unconscious.

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Thanks, I was beginning to worry that question was going to get lost in the continuing discussion.

As a bright side, this means people are (slightly) less likely to be swarmed by (stingless) BEES!

 

[pepperjack]

Cauldron uses Agents. Bonesaw uses Passengers. Nomenclature.

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I'd forgotten that Bonesaw used a different term than Cauldron. Thank you.

 

[Prince Charon]

As nobody else seems willing to do so, I've opened this thread.

It's a place where people whose ideas of Worm come from fanon can throw out those ideas and ask how is it that Worm even works, and those of us who have actually read it can fill them in.

Guardian54
edale
The Unicorn

So, would anyone like to start?

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Should this also be treated as a general Worm Discussion thread, and thus the thread I point people to when the mods shut down discussions that I was following in threads I started (or other threads, for that matter), or should I create a dedicated 'Unrestricted Worm Discussion' thread?

 

[The Unicorn]

I seem to recall people claiming there are gang tags and colors shown in various places in Winslow. But I can set that aside as fanon... IF you can show me your MATH (as described below)

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You are not getting it. Your math looks reasonable, but like all math it requires a set of axioms to start with. One of the issues is the definition of "gang member". Gangs, especially ones like E88 and ABB who CLAIM to be doing everything to "protect our people", have many levels of participation, from active members who can be called on to help fight other gangs or participate in some other major felony without warning, all the way down to kids who consider themselves to be in the gang, wear the colors and won't get beaten up by the other gang members for saying so, but never actually did anything criminal (possibly except for graphiti tags). In Taylor's neighborhood, I would expect a majority of the kids to belong to one of the gangs, in the sense of the lower level mentioned above, while the number of full members in the gang could be as low as Wildbow claimed.

I'll repeat again, just because a kid joins a gang doesn't mean they drop out of school and stop studying (like most kids in most schools they probably weren't doing much studying before, them joining the gang won't change that). If you want to write a story with Winslow being a shitty school with gang tags everywhere and violence a weekly occurrence you can. If you want to write one with gang tags and people wearing gang colors visible, but no actual violence other than the normal amount in any school (i.e lots of verbal confrontations and an occasional fistfight the teachers break up) you can do that, but neither of those (or anything in between) is directly supported by canon.

I do think the bathroom Taylor hid in having intact mirrors, and not being filthy enough to rate a mention, Taylor being able to browse on the internet from her school computer, and even having a programming class in the first place all suggest that Winslow is better than most fanon describes it as.

The gang population of Chicago in 2012 was estimated at 150,000, or 5.5% of its population of 2,714,000.

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I suspect that number is for "people who self-identify as gang members". Most of them have not committed any crime(at least not as part of being a gang member, I'm sure they are guilty of Jaywalking), and many will go one to continue not committing crimes and grow up to be valuable members of society, possibly even going to college.

 

[Chastity]

I suspect that number is for "people who self-identify as gang members". Most of them have not committed any crime(at least not as part of being a gang member, I'm sure they are guilty of Jaywalking), and many will go one to continue not committing crimes and grow up to be valuable members of society, possibly even going to college.

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Sure, lots of gang members are either non-criminal or peripherally criminal, but, y'know, if you join a gang because you like the scarves and the way they talk, you're still "being recruited."

 

[The Unicorn]

Sure, lots of gang members are either non-criminal or peripherally criminal, but, y'know, if you join a gang because you like the scarves and the way they talk, you're still "being recruited."

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Yup, and that's my point. The fact that there are lots of gang members in Winslow doesn't indicate anything other than that it serves relatively poor neighborhoods.

 

[Guardian54]

Yup, and that's my point. The fact that there are lots of gang members in Winslow doesn't indicate anything other than that it serves relatively poor neighborhoods.

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You generally have a point. Perhaps I should make distinctions between "gangers" and "gangbangers", the latter being the guys who do violence for the gang.

Wealth of neighborhoods served is something that has an extremely high correlation with school quality...

 

[The Unicorn]

Wealth of neighborhoods served is something that has an extremely high correlation with school quality...

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Not really. It has a loose correlation. That said, given what we see of the principal and Mr. G. I agree Winslow is unlikely to be a great school. It's probably below average for Brockton Bay.

 

[Ack]

Should this also be treated as a general Worm Discussion thread, and thus the thread I point people to when the mods shut down discussions that I was following in threads I started (or other threads, for that matter), or should I create a dedicated 'Unrestricted Worm Discussion' thread?

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It's specifically for people to bring up points (usually related to fanon) that seem to contradict the way the world of Worm, or some aspect of it, should go. And then for other people (who have actually read Worm) to cite canon to show what's really going on.

 

[Guardian54]

Not really. It has a loose correlation. That said, given what we see of the principal and Mr. G. I agree Winslow is unlikely to be a great school. It's probably below average for Brockton Bay.

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...That's like saying a school in our world is below average for Detroit or something similar.

Which means that my previous point that Winslow is near the bottom of the heap (among the lowest 5 of Brockton Bay's circa 20 high schools) is pretty valid. And Taylor didn't go to Arcadia because Annette died and they didn't have the money to go anymore.

Which makes me wonder why Annette didn't seem to have life insurance. Because Danny at least should fucking know that Annette would want Taylor to spend the life insurance payout on going to Arcadia and then on to university... Let's chalk it up to "Danny is fucking useless" again... which as I've explained before, is impossible if he still has a job this long into BB's decline as job-finder (de facto leader) of a work gang, as he does in canon!

 

[The Unicorn]

...That's like saying a school in our world is below average for Detroit or something similar.

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Not sure how the education in Detroit is so no idea if that's accurate. However please note that most of BB is quite prosperous.

Which means that my previous point that Winslow is near the bottom of the heap (among the lowest 5 of Brockton Bay's circa 20 high schools) is pretty valid. And Taylor didn't go to Arcadia because Annette died and they didn't have the money to go anymore.

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If by "valid" you mean "plausible fanon", then yes Winslow being number 19/20, or 25/30 or 3/30 are all valid. However Arcadia being a private school they were planning on sending Taylor to does not work.
1)Emma didn't qualify for Arcadia, i.e it has academic standards (doesn't mean it's not a private school but it supports the other points).
2)Arcadia has a long waiting list. If it was a private school that would translate to the sort of fees there's no way a humanities professor (even if tenured) and a dockworker could afford.
3)There's no mention of finances in regards to the school, not even during the meeting at Winslow.
4)Having the Wards attending a private school would cause all sorts of problems, both politically and with their secret identity.
5)During the meeting at Winslow Taylor is talking as if her, or the trio transferring to Arcadia is a realistic possibility and no one tells her it's impossible because it's a private school (granted that can also be explained by them concentrating on other stuff and not bothering to explain to Taylor and Danny why they were morons, but together with everything else I think it makes Arcadia being a private school extremely unlikely).

Which makes me wonder why Annette didn't seem to have life insurance. Because Danny at least should fucking know that Annette would want Taylor to spend the life insurance payout on going to Arcadia and then on to university... Let's chalk it up to "Danny is fucking useless" again... which as I've explained before, is impossible if he still has a job this long into BB's decline as job-finder (de facto leader) of a work gang, as he does in canon!

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As noted there does not appear to be any financial aspect to Taylor's choice of schools, and despite the fanon I don't recall anything in canon about the Heberts haveing significant financial issues (not fixing the front step was more a lack of care than lack of money, and while they have less money, or at least think they do, than the Barnes, that doesn't mean they were in any sort of hardship).

Also, now that I think of it if Annette was at fault for the accident that killed her, it's unlikely the insurance company would pay much, if anything.

 

[Guardian54]

most of BB is quite prosperous.


If by "valid" you mean "plausible fanon", then yes Winslow being number 19/20, or 25/30 or 3/30 are all valid. However Arcadia being a private school they were planning on sending Taylor to does not work.
1)Emma didn't qualify for Arcadia, i.e it has academic standards (doesn't mean it's not a private school but it supports the other points).
2)Arcadia has a long waiting list. If it was a private school that would translate to the sort of fees there's no way a humanities professor (even if tenured) and a dockworker could afford.
3)There's no mention of finances in regards to the school, not even during the meeting at Winslow.
4)Having the Wards attending a private school would cause all sorts of problems, both politically and with their secret identity.
5)During the meeting at Winslow Taylor is talking as if her, or the trio transferring to Arcadia is a realistic possibility and no one tells her it's impossible because it's a private school (granted that can also be explained by them concentrating on other stuff and not bothering to explain to Taylor and Danny why they were morons, but together with everything else I think it makes Arcadia being a private school extremely unlikely).


As noted there does not appear to be any financial aspect to Taylor's choice of schools, and despite the fanon I don't recall anything in canon about the Heberts haveing significant financial issues (not fixing the front step was more a lack of care than lack of money, and while they have less money, or at least think they do, than the Barnes, that doesn't mean they were in any sort of hardship).

Also, now that I think of it if Annette was at fault for the accident that killed her, it's unlikely the insurance company would pay much, if anything.

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1. U wot mate? It's pretty generally clear that Brockton Bay is a slowly dying shithole even pre-Leviathan.

2. Arcadia is almost certainly a selective public school. I never contested this.

3. How many times Taylor could replace her stuff without Danny noticing, despite Danny's no doubt not-exactly-rich job (given the state of the DWU) doesn't seem to click with any of her backstory unless Taylor is godly at money management and scrounging/salvage, and in canon she had typical Stupid Not-Rich Teen money management skills i.e. no practice and only "enough/not enough" according to a certain dispute I had recently over in "Commercial Break".

 

[Valor]

To what extend does Shards affect a parahuman? Is the 'aggression / confrontantial / brain damaged idiots' take on the thing exaggerated fanon or what?

"Oh we're parahumans so we'll naturally always resort to violence and fuck the world up! Whooo!"

I'm pretty sure that was fanon with a very few exceptions like Rachel, Burnscar and Labyrinth...

Wasn't the original take: Entities used precog to find the best, most suitable targets for shard-possession.

What's the actual canon take on things?

 

[The Unicorn]

1. U wot mate? It's pretty generally clear that Brockton Bay is a slowly dying shithole even pre-Leviathan.

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No, it isn't. The docks are, if not dying in a seriously reduced state, but the rest of the city is prospering.
I'll grant the support for the city being prosperous comes mainly from WoG, not primary canon, but there isn't anything in canon that contradicts it, so I'll go with it.

3. How many times Taylor could replace her stuff without Danny noticing, despite Danny's no doubt not-exactly-rich job (given the state of the DWU) doesn't seem to click with any of her backstory unless Taylor is godly at money management and scrounging/salvage, and in canon she had typical Stupid Not-Rich Teen money management skills i.e. no practice and only "enough/not enough" according to a certain dispute I had recently over in "Commercial Break".

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Don't get me started on the illogic of Taylor's pre-canon backstory.

To what extend does Shards affect a parahuman? Is the 'aggression / confrontantial / brain damaged idiots' take on the thing exaggerated fanon or what?

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The main thing fanon seems to consistantly ignore is that the shards pick people who are likely to generate more conflict, so direct mental influence, much less control isn't actually needed in most cases.

I think the only bits in canon about possible manipulations are noting how Sophia became more aggressive once she had power which let her get away with it safely, and Scion noting that Broadcast shard was normally not very aggressive but Jack drove it to become more aggressive than usual.

There is a WoG about the shards sometimes manipulating the host's mind, but fanon takes what Wildbow describes as extreme cases and treats them as typical, then goes on from there.

 

[Shoes]

I really hate "but there was this hidden factor making people act this way all along, haha!" plotlines

gag me with a space whale sized spoon, please

 

[pepperjack]

What's the actual canon take on things?

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The actual canon consists entirely of vague hints and inference. I'm open to being corrected by direct quotes from the text if anyone thinks I'm wrong on this, but to the best of my current recollection: if anyone states a definitive position on this question and tells you it's the canon take on things, they are mistaken.

Characters not knowing the answer for sure is occasionally a plot point.

Edit: I'll add that most fanon positions on this question are probably plausible interpretations of canon evidence (barring certain extreme positions, of course), except insofar as said fanon position assumes widespread consensus among characters as to the facts of the matter.

 

[magic9mushroom]

Finding him is the big problem. Remember his power. He can stay under the radar by not doing anything that would draw major attention. And if anyone did get close, he uses his power (and information gleaned from his position as a strike squad commander) to shut that down before it goes anywhere.

FFS, read Worm..

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Coil's power is very effective at making conflicts he initiates go his way (because if they don't, he doesn't initiate them).

It is far, far less effective the moment someone else is initiating.

Some of this talk about how dumb characters supposedly are makes me wonder what folks think a novel of their own life would look like, and how they expect their own actions would be judged.

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I made some really dumb decisions that I got away with scot-free, and I suffered serious mental trauma due to not doing the "stupid thing" (specifically, refusing to play ball with the many people trying to hold my home life together) two years before I actually did it.

 

[redfog]

I really hate "but there was this hidden factor making people act this way all along, haha!" plotline

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I think the main thing was that it wasn't really a plotline, just a flimsy excuse for why some people acted the way they had to act in order to move the plot along. That and Cauldron.

An actual "but there was this hidden factor making people act this way all along, haha!" plotline, like Higurashi, can be pretty good.

 

[Chastity]

To what extend does Shards affect a parahuman? Is the 'aggression / confrontantial / brain damaged idiots' take on the thing exaggerated fanon or what?

"Oh we're parahumans so we'll naturally always resort to violence and fuck the world up! Whooo!"

I'm pretty sure that was fanon with a very few exceptions like Rachel, Burnscar and Labyrinth...

Wasn't the original take: Entities used precog to find the best, most suitable targets for shard-possession.

What's the actual canon take on things?

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Here's a big beefy WoG on it.

Depends on the shard. Bonesaw elaborates on the idea by noting 'breadth and depth' in her interlude. If the shard gets you while you're young, it can shape your personality across the board, on a deeper level. The more conflict you're involved in, the more toeholds it gets to rewrite your consciousness and your subconscious. To alter your thinking, it needs to do it as a part of the trigger event, or as part of the brain's development.

In the extreme cases, the shard can leave you with an impulse (Must fight when a fight presents itself), help set up an obsession ("Wall myself in!"), steer a neurosis in one particular direction (specific hallucinations rather than random ones, of you hurting people, pushing someone down the stairs, etc), create a link between A and B (Being around fire makes subject lose empathy and inhibitions. With lower empathy and inhibitions, subject uses power to make more fire.), or steer a personality trait to an extreme (Must be on top, I answer to no one!), or they just overwrite stuff (Can't understand humans, only dogs).

In the lesser cases, it can be a nudge, hard to distinguish from one's own psychology. You might be on the fence about something, trying to make a call, and the passenger pushes you one way over the other, based on your own feelings of doubt or fear. It might tap into emotions, and dampen X emotion while promoting Y, just dampen them across the board, or take the joy out of day to day living while adding excitement to the cape life. A vague sort of depression that only goes away when one's out and fighting. Sometimes, as mentioned before, it's set up as a trap, a flood of emotion or a set of mental switches that get thrown when a prerequisite is met - such as a cape just steering clear of all confrontations, except the shard set it up so they can't, and they have a sort of limit break/command cutting in that mandates them to fight in one way or another. Or it plays off a limit or a berserk button that already exists - Damsel can't spend too long being anything less than top dog or she gets restless, and if she goes too long despite that, then she has to act, she's acting without thinking about it. This takes time and effort for the passenger, and a host that doesn't demand that time and effort (by circumstance or intent) is going to develop a better connection with the power. This in turn is a reward of sorts. If Damsel did kill the local capes and assume control over the area, fighting off all comers, she'd find her facility and control with her power just ramped up like crazy.

It varies from cape to cape and shard to shard, and it varies depending on the host, the host's background and the host's personality.

Beyond that, other influences include the passenger playing fast and loose with the power itself, as it controls the metadata, which may be more visible if the subject breaks from their norm in terms of consciousness (gets a concussion, tranquilized), working off base instincts and impulses like 'stay camouflaged' (be a little more creepy and unsettling), intimidate/dominate (passenger works behind the scenes to make you look a little more dangerous as you mutate/grow/surround yourself in the aura of your power), etc, etc. In more pronounced cases, the power is just plain controlled by the passenger, not the host, and the passenger makes the seemingly random or uncontrolled aspects generate more conflict... pushing a power to kill rather than leave someone alive, or a thinker power turns up a vision of something the subject didn't want to see.

On the macro level, too, don't discount the fact that some shards (particularly powerful ones that warranted attention) are just sent to specific people, with the idea that it's a combination that's going to promote more conflict just by the sheer dynamic of it (Powerful person with a destructive power, a desperate person with a power with negative implications).

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[Prince Charon]

It's specifically for people to bring up points (usually related to fanon) that seem to contradict the way the world of Worm, or some aspect of it, should go. And then for other people (who have actually read Worm) to cite canon to show what's really going on.

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OK, the thread now exists in NSFW General: [NSFW]Unrestricted Worm Discussion Thread.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I think the main thing was that it wasn't really a plotline, just a flimsy excuse for why some people acted the way they had to act in order to move the plot along. That and Cauldron.

An actual "but there was this hidden factor making people act this way all along, haha!" plotline, like Higurashi, can be pretty good.

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Only read the first three-and-a-half arcs of Higurashi (the fourth made me give up in frustration, because a) the blurb of "you should have already figured out what's going on" came across as a personal insult b) the last thing I wanted to do after Tatarigoroshi was a fucking prequel), but while it has its moments I wouldn't exactly call it good. Watanagashi is kinda meh and the first half of Tatarigoroshi (up until Hollow Eyes Satoko) is utter dreck.

 

[Valor]

Thank you Chastity.

Sigh. Doubt I'll be writing any Worm fiction in the future.

 

[redfog]

Only read the first three-and-a-half arcs of Higurashi (the fourth made me give up in frustration, because a) the blurb of "you should have already figured out what's going on" came across as a personal insult b) the last thing I wanted to do after Tatarigoroshi was a fucking prequel), but while it has its moments I wouldn't exactly call it good. Watanagashi is kinda meh and the first half of Tatarigoroshi (up until Hollow Eyes Satoko) is utter dreck.

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Eh, it's been a while since I read Higurashi, but I do remember that it was organized into question arcs and answer arcs, so maybe you should have waited until you got to the answer arcs? On the other hand, I do remember enjoying the question arcs more than the answer arcs. On the other other hand that may have been retrospective enjoyment. Either way this isn't the Higurashi thread.

 

[pepperjack]

Thank you Chastity.

Sigh. Doubt I'll be writing any Worm fiction in the future.

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I really would encourage just reading the story and forming your own conclusions. When I imagine myself reading that "word of god" without the context of having first read Worm, I imagine myself coming to some pretty distasteful misapprehensions.

 

[magic9mushroom]

I really would encourage just reading the story and forming your own conclusions. When I imagine myself reading that "word of god" without the context of having first read Worm, I imagine myself coming to some pretty distasteful misapprehensions.

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Worm is literally three times as long as War and Peace and the writing's not exceptional. "Just" reading Worm is not a trivial expenditure of effort.

 

[pepperjack]

Worm is literally three times as long as War and Peace and the writing's not exceptional.

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The writing is better than people give it credit for.

The length I'll grant you, but then again, I'm of the opinion that writing fanwork for a series one hasn't read is silly to begin with. The book is only half again as long as Harry Potter, and I think there's a general expectation of authors having read that before cranking out fanfic for it -- not that you'd necessarily know, reading some of it.