So what's really going on in Worm?

[magic9mushroom]

The writing is better than people give it credit for.

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That's awfully vague, since there are a lot of people and they give it wildly-varying amounts of credit. What exactly are you trying to say?

You also seem to be misaiming your complaint about non-readers writing fanfiction, as that is precisely what Valor literally just said he doesn't plan to do.

 

[pepperjack]

That's awfully vague, since there are a lot of people and they give it wildly-varying amounts of credit. What exactly are you trying to say?

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I'm trying to say the writing rewards a second look. I appreciate the story a lot more on a slow, careful re-read than I did when I first read it, galloping through the chapters like the ending wouldn't be there if I didn't finish the story within a week of starting it. I think a lot of people rush through it like that, and they end up with a lower opinion of the writing than it deserves. It's structurally quite good, in ways that are easy to miss at four in the morning.

I spoke generally because I mean my statement generally. I wouldn't want to get too specific and be taken as commenting on your own experience.

You also seem to be misaiming your complaint about non-readers writing fanfiction, as that is precisely what Valor literally just said he doesn't plan to do.

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I don't think it's mis-aimed (nor, indeed, do I think it's a "complaint"), for reasons I'm having trouble articulating. Fortunately, I'm not terribly invested in making myself understood on this point.

 

[Heaven Canceler]

The book is only half again as long as Harry Potter, and I think there's a general expectation of authors having read that before cranking out fanfic for it -- not that you'd necessarily know, reading some of it.

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A bad writer who has read a story will write a bad fanfic just the same as if he never touched the original. It will just be familiar trash instead of unfamiliar trash.

I would actually be interested in a good/exceptional writer making a fanfic using only minimum information. That sounds like it could be really interesting.

 

[Chastity]

I really would encourage just reading the story and forming your own conclusions. When I imagine myself reading that "word of god" without the context of having first read Worm, I imagine myself coming to some pretty distasteful misapprehensions.

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Yeah, practically, what it means is:
1. There are characters with fucked up psychologies because their shard rewrote chunks of their brain (Bitch, Burnscar, Labyrinth);
2. There are characters whose shards are actively making them miserable because they're being too boring (Auroch, Leet, Damsel); and
3. Basically everyone else is acting like someone who just happened to decide that being a superhero/supervillain was a good idea, and then stuck with that decision despite the evidence to the opposite.

 

[Guardian54]

I will now put forth a point that I believe OUGHT to be canon for Worm:

Armsmaster agreed to them putting his FACE (not logo, FACE) on girls' underwear because "a certain proportion of howling harridans will be satisfied with merely wearing them in an unintended orientation, instead of stalking me everywhere. Those who are not satisfied... well, you can't get them all. It is an efficient means of helping disperse fangirl mobs slightly. And to reduce the number of panties hurled at me whenever I take the stage in public, unless of course they brought spares."

 

[Melmar]

I will now put forth a point that I believe OUGHT to be canon for Worm:

Armsmaster agreed to them putting his FACE (not logo, FACE) on girls' underwear because "a certain proportion of howling harridans will be satisfied with merely wearing them in an unintended orientation, instead of stalking me everywhere. Those who are not satisfied... well, you can't get them all. It is an efficient means of helping disperse fangirl mobs slightly. And to reduce the number of panties hurled at me whenever I take the stage in public, unless of course they brought spares."

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No, he didn't.

1.6
There was a long pause. Nervously, I turned my eyes from that opaque visor. I glanced at his chest emblem, a silhouette of his visor in blue against a silver background, and was struck with the ridiculous thought that I had once owned a pair of underpants with his emblem on the front.

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[Guardian54]

No, he didn't.

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BOOO!!!! HISSSS!!!!!

Not good for bad jokes! Down with you!

Are you SURE his logo isn't basically the Robocop face though?

 

[Melmar]

BOOO!!!! HISSSS!!!!!

Not good for bad jokes! Down with you!

Are you SURE his logo isn't basically the Robocop face though?

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It's described in the same quote. Christ.

 

[The Unicorn]

if anyone states a definitive position on this question and tells you it's the canon take on things, they are mistaken.

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Or treating WoG as canon.

Sigh. Doubt I'll be writing any Worm fiction in the future.

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Don't draw any conclusions about the story from Wildbow's WoG posts. Even ignoring the ones which contradict canon, his WoG posts don't (IMO) fit the tone or theme of the story very well.

The writing is better than people give it credit for.

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No argument. For what it is, i.e a grim-derp story with virtually no editing, written and posted at the speed Wildbow wrote it, it is beyond amazing...

That doesn't however make it very good writing in an absolute sense, it has some great scenes, some bad scenes and a lot of okay writing.

 

[Guardian54]

It's described in the same quote. Christ.

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his visor in blue against a silver background

What shape is the background though?

Because if his visor looks like his helmet, is in the upper half of the background, and the background is grey and oval enough, I know what a common permanent marker line would be (the jaw) and then you draw in a beard.

Inb4 Cricket, during a fight jumps over Armsmaster, and he sees her panties when reviewing the combat footage... with a thus-modified logo of his on the front.

 

[pepperjack]

grim-derp

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I can't engage with your post because I really don't want to be involved in any discussion where this word is in use. I have never seen that go well.

 

[The Unicorn]

I can't engage with your post because I really don't want to be involved in any discussion where this word is in use. I have never seen that go well.

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Fair point. it is a phrase different people have different definitions for. What I meant is that the setting is dark by authorial fiat with no/poor in-universe explanations for why it's so dark.

 

[Nekraa]

Fair point. it is a phrase different people have different definitions for. What I meant is that the setting is dark by authorial fiat with no/poor in-universe explanations for why it's so dark.

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... The ones sending out the powers chose people who wouldn't be "heroes" with them. That's a bad explanation?

 

[The Unicorn]

... The ones sending out the powers chose people who wouldn't be "heroes" with them. That's a bad explanation?

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Not what I'm talking about. That part actually makes sense, however having civilization hold together just enough to fuck over the protagonist and her friends, but anything that would help them not existing/failing is ridiculous. Worm is a civilization on the edge of collapse that somehow holds balanced on the edge neither improving, or collapsing for basically Taylor's entire life.

 

[pepperjack]

Not what I'm talking about. That part actually makes sense, however having civilization hold together just enough to fuck over the protagonist and her friends, but anything that would help them not existing/failing is ridiculous. Worm is a civilization on the edge of collapse that somehow holds balanced on the edge neither improving, or collapsing for basically Taylor's entire life.

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I disagree with this assessment. It's not on the edge of collapse; or, if it is, it is a very wide edge. It is merely slowly collapsing. We see that collapse progress steadily, in slow motion, through the entire story. It's less a Jenga tower waiting to fall and more a great stone ediface, crumbling under steady bombardment.

The relevant timescale is one of decades. Of course a story that takes place over less than three years doesn't see it cross a tipping point.

 

[MissileTeatime]

To what extend does Shards affect a parahuman? Is the 'aggression / confrontantial / brain damaged idiots' take on the thing exaggerated fanon or what?

"Oh we're parahumans so we'll naturally always resort to violence and fuck the world up! Whooo!"

I'm pretty sure that was fanon with a very few exceptions like Rachel, Burnscar and Labyrinth...

Wasn't the original take: Entities used precog to find the best, most suitable targets for shard-possession.

What's the actual canon take on things?

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Let me put it this way: You know the thing that Canary got arrested and sent to the Birdcage for? That was pure shard intervention.

Re-reading the WoG Chastity quoted, that's even an extreme example.

(If you ever hear about the "conflict drive", stuff like what happened with Canary and Rachel's mentality-induced problems with authority are what Wildbow was referring to.)

Shards mostly prefer to work more by conditioning methods. You know how Taylor's range varies seemingly based on her emotional state, something like how trapped she feels? That's a typical Shard Mental Meddling behavior.

 

[litaispe]

What's the actual canon take on things?

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One Word Of God take* is the shards use precog to select for violent manics predisposed to using their powers for violence, but the text reading is shards actively push for it and punish parahumans who don't use their powers for violence.

Wildbow's out-of-text statements are generally incoherent as hell and rarely actually match what is presented in the work.

*Wildbow sometimes contradicts himself with WoG statements, since they are often post-hoc "I win" sort of vs-debate crap, rather than written as part of the work

 

[Valor]

Canary has a Cauldron vial.

 

[Chastity]

Not what I'm talking about. That part actually makes sense, however having civilization hold together just enough to fuck over the protagonist and her friends, but anything that would help them not existing/failing is ridiculous. Worm is a civilization on the edge of collapse that somehow holds balanced on the edge neither improving, or collapsing for basically Taylor's entire life.

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How long did it take the Western Roman Empire to fall?

 

[Nekraa]

*Wildbow sometimes contradicts himself with WoG statements, since they are often post-hoc "I win" sort of vs-debate crap, rather than written as part of the work

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Could you cite any contradiction? It's often claimed, but so far I can't remember ever seeing it. Though he is human, so mistakes wouldn't be surprising.

 

[Prince Charon]

I disagree with this assessment. It's not on the edge of collapse; or, if it is, it is a very wide edge. It is merely slowly collapsing. We see that collapse progress steadily, in slow motion, through the entire story. It's less a Jenga tower waiting to fall and more a great stone ediface, crumbling under steady bombardment.

The relevant timescale is one of decades. Of course a story that takes place over less than three years doesn't see it cross a tipping point.

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To me, the important part is the rest of his post (I don't disagree with you on the slow speed of collapse being plausible, but I want people to think about the way the collapse is somehow always working to screw over the protagonist, whether it's because something is broken, or because it isn't). I mean, it's plausible that that's because Ziz planned it that way, but it still makes it really hard to enjoy reading the story, or fanfics that try to imitate the same 'feel.'

 

[pepperjack]

but I want people to think about the way the collapse is somehow always working to screw over the protagonist, whether it's because something is broken, or because it isn't

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I'm not really sure I agree with that part, either? I mean, there are times when the aftermath of an Endbringer attack or whatever helps Taylor more than it hurts (or at least impedes her enemies more than her). Even aside from that, you have to consider the fact that the story is told from her perspective. It's not like everyone else is having a picnic in the park; we're just getting a protagonist's-eye-view of what's happening to and around the protagonist.

I feel like we're not really going to get anywhere in this discussion without something more concrete to talk about, though. Do you have an example of something that you feel is excessive?

 

[Guardian54]

Do you have an example of something that you feel is excessive?

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Wildbow specifically calling out A Cloudy Path as the closest fanfic to Worm in tone is VASTLY excessive to me. It is another reason I will never read Worm in its entirety if the pacing and general feel are anything like That Fic.

Solid prose is like solid cooking skills. Pacing is like how often you make a dish worth eating and/or how many times you make the same dish in a row. Only having the former does not a good chef make.

 

[pepperjack]

Wildbow specifically calling out A Cloudy Path as the closest fanfic to Worm in tone is VASTLY excessive to me. It is another reason I will never read Worm in its entirety if the pacing and general feel are anything like That Fic.

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Haven't read it. I have my doubts, but I'll refrain from comment until I have.


Edit: I did find a Reddit thread asking why more people haven't read it, and the general consensus seems to be that the pacing sucked -- I saw one person say it was worse than Pact in that regard. Now, since Pact was unquestionably paced far worse than Worm, that leads me to believe, based on readers' commentary, that your fears about Worm's pacing are unfounded.

Can you quote me what Wildbow actually said?

 

[Shoes]

Haven't read it. I have my doubts, but I'll refrain from comment until I have.

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One million+ words of the protagonist waffling and getting slapped about despite being overpowered

and learning absolutely nothing, remaining the same dumb idiot and making the same mistakes

one

point

three

million

words

of no character development

none

character development?

absolutely none

(and no giant robots either)

 

[Guardian54]

Can you quote me what Wildbow actually said?

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Can't find the exact citation, but I've seen it shouted N times by Lacks' supporters. And it's correct. Canon Taylor is basically incapable of accepting compromises suggested by anyone else, and always excuses her own stupidity to herself.

Go read the thing, the whole thing, then read it again with the comments from beginning to end (or just skim through the comments if you can't stand to reread it). Focus on paying attention to Taylor's character development (because Lacks categorically refused to write giant robots). She always comes back to the "woe is me martyr", without fail! Interesting characters keep getting used as ablative armour for her morality/ego (see the Endbringer fight in India where she didn't report the cultists on sight followed by extermination) and the author killed the S9 with a muggle to prevent her from ever pulling her head out of her ass and learning that killing is often the best solution available.

The first massed complaints that directly predicted the final problems were on page 18-19 of a 966 page thread, by Drich (18), aguy, Ivar, and blackmamuth, so 2% of the way in.
Hell, there was a comment on IIRC page 10 that's hilarious in hindsight as "THE ECONOMY, FOOLS!" as Europa Universalis 4 would call it!
Then on page 13 mackon sayeth Taylor seemed "completely clueless" to counter Lacks' Page 11 blatant lies of "her current priority is hero-ing. More specifically, it's hero-ing well, and not repeating her mistakes."

Oh, and Brellin shows up on page 21, Blackmane on page 23, and Larekko12 on 24 with the same basic issues.
The first announced quit was on page 25 with Kellanved's "It's like reading Panacea." and even landcollector (one of the staunchest supporters) expressed unease on 25 with "her hesitance and paranoia is starting to get a little frustrating"
ShadowCub and Inverness arrive on Page 26. The complaints die down after page 47 or so as people basically gave up for a while.

Page 100-102 see a spike.
Page 123 starts the first multi-person call for lethality AKA sentient lifeform level intelligence.

seether and TheProffesor on page 139 are worth reading. So is what I call Inverness's Prophecy on page 141.

One million+ words of the protagonist waffling and getting slapped about despite being overpowered

and learning absolutely nothing, remaining the same dumb idiot and making the same mistakes

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Once upon a dream, I thought ACP Taylor could not have been a sapient lifeform with its complete inability to learn anything whatsoever.
Then I realized that merely sentient life would be smarter, and only sapient life can make itself that stupid on purpose.

Even "Stereotypical Stupid Teens" know that some guy you know is going to gleefully look to kill more people is someone you put down terminally. No, not "gouge out his eyes" if there's powers or tech that can regrow them, "vaporize" is the only morally correct option in dealing with them. ACP killed the S9 off-screen to prevent Taylor from ever learning that very basic life lesson that's the reason animals are usually more scared of humans than vice versa.

A lion kills a gazelle? The other gazelles are glad it wasn't them. A lion kills a hyena? The others are upset but don't swarm the lion as they know they'll get hurt or killed. A lion kills a human? We hunt that fucker DOWN! And the result? Most lions nowadays don't attack humans if there are easier prey or unless particularly hungry.

Taylor refuses to understand that if you claim a Mandate to Protect, you are obligated to act in the name of that Mandate as efficiently as possible. Which means that in the handling of repeat offenders you know will just kill more people in the 99% chance of them breaking out again, letting them live throws away your Mandate, because you have consciously chosen to not protect the public, instead you have chosen to protect your ego.


The sides of the dispute on Worm morality almost always come down to two factions:

One side prizes individual decisions above all else. This group naturally includes the likes of anti-vaxxers, etc.

The other side believes that if you aren't willing to potentially sacrifice anything and/or everything, including your personal beliefs, personal identity, innocence, etc. in the protection of others, you haven't reached the pinnacle of heroism. You are not one of the true watchers on the wall, giving everything to hold back the barbarian hordes for one more day.

 

[pepperjack]

Can't find the exact citation, but I've seen it shouted N times by Lacks' supporters. And it's correct.

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I'm confused as to why you're sure it's correct when firstly, you're not sure what he said, and secondly -- unless I'm mistaken -- you haven't read Worm. Surely you can't know whether the tone of A Cloudy Path matches that of Worm any more than I can, without having actually read both works.

I understand that you really don't like A Cloudy Path, but without even knowing what Wildbow actually said, I can't really address the question of whether or not Wildbow's opinion of that story is evidence that you wouldn't like Worm.

Go read the thing, the whole thing, then read it again with the comments from beginning to end (or just skim through the comments if you can't stand to reread it).

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Get back to me on this request when you've read Worm. Or, better yet, once you've read Worm, I'll just take your word for it on whether the two stories have similar tone.

 

[Melmar]

Gosh, is it derail the thread to whine about ACP time already? Go to Rants and take it to Stories You Gave Up On or the Story Rant thread if you want to bitch about it, Guardian.

 

[Guardian54]

I'm confused as to why you're sure it's correct when firstly, you're not sure what he said, and secondly -- unless I'm mistaken -- you haven't read Worm. Surely you can't know whether the tone of A Cloudy Path matches that of Worm any more than I can, without having actually read both works.

I understand that you really don't like A Cloudy Path, but without even knowing what Wildbow actually said, I can't really address the question of whether or not Wildbow's opinion of that story is evidence that you wouldn't like Worm.

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Reading the plot summary is enough to tell you the general tone of a story like Worm. And when everyone tells you that a fic gets canon Taylor bang-on, and what you know agrees, that's enough grounds to agree with their claim. If we all had to test out everything completely rational that we hear in lecture ourselves, stuff that agrees with what we already know from reputable sources, science would never go anywhere.

Google "wildbow" "cloudy path" "similar", or replace "similar" with "tone" and you'll end up with many examples of people who have presumably read both saying they are similar.

Gosh, is it derail the thread to whine about ACP time already? Go to Rants and take it to Stories You Gave Up On or the Story Rant thread if you want to bitch about it, Guardian.

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One of the earliest/largest/most influential fanfics crashing and burning so hard that it makes a notable chunk of the fandom paranoid of long fics set in it is extremely relevant to people's perceptions of what happened in Worm.

If your memories of Worm haven't been colored at all by fanon yet, I commend you for memory kung-fu.

 

[pepperjack]

Reading the plot summary is enough to tell you the general tone of a story like Worm.

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I suspect we may have different ideas of what is meant by "tone," if you feel it can be inferred from a plot summary.

Google "wildbow" "cloudy path" "similar", or replace "similar" with "tone" and you'll end up with many examples of people who have presumably read both saying they are similar.

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Sure, but I notice that a lot of your complaints had to do with characterization and pacing, which are not at all the same thing. That's one reason why I wanted to know what Wildbow had actually said, and part of why I'm skeptical of your reasoning behind judging Worm based on a reading of A Cloudy Path.


Edit:

One of the earliest/largest/most influential fanfics crashing and burning so hard that it makes a notable chunk of the fandom paranoid of long fics set in it is extremely relevant to people's perceptions of what happened in Worm.

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Just as a side note: I had never heard of this story before coming to this thread, and I've read and gone looking for a fair amount of fanfic in the four or five years since I finished reading Worm.