Star Wars! Spoilers Allowed So Beware!

[Smuthunter]

Why the hell are ftl planet devastator torpedoes not already a thing.

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Lack of interest, presumably. Palpatine and the other Sith lords are the only ones interested in planet-cracking firepower and Sideous was just as invested in the Death Stars being symbols of fear and his iron-fisted rule as in their actual destructive power. Torpedoes kind of lack the gravitas of a space station the size of a moon, even if you assume a planet-cracking torp would be the size of a capital ship or something

Also, if the new canon's ancient history shapes up to be anything like Legends canon, the galaxy seems to go through the occasional dark age every few thousand years where tech regresses and they lose cool stuff they had in previous eras, like the wearable shield generators from SWTOR that never showed up again. It's entirely possible that these torpedoes existed at one point but were lost in some ancient conflict and there hasn't been a need for the technology to be re-developed since then.

 

[Van Ropen]

(I'm actually pretty sure it's going to have an extended edition which fixes that 'rushed' feeling)

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I really hope so, it would help a lot. Most of my complaints are derived from that one.

Anyone criticizing that fight on merits of her managing a win, can go suck a nut for being terribly foolish.

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I'm gonna criticize the fight on her managing the win because I'm imagining the alternative, and it is just flat out a more entertaining story.

Ren winning that fight would have greatly helped with his status as a villain. The dude is a whiny little bitch, but I feel like that is part of the point. He's half-trained, he should be throwing fits.

This isn't Vader, it is Anakin.

And yet, imagine - he wins the fight. It would have still made it clear that he was dangerous. That the Force isn't a toy or an instant-win button for the righteous, and that Rey would have to git gud to come back and smack this bitch down. There's some tension.


But she wins, and we don't really feel that she got good and worked for this. It feels like she just gets handed her win. He was a cardboard cutout for us to deride from the start. The hero's journey wasn't a journey, it was a trip to the drive-thru where she ordered victory off the menu. Meh. It's only worsened by the fact that I actually liked her and her portrayal.

 

[Xicree]

Ren winning that fight would have greatly helped with his status as a villain. The dude is a whiny little bitch, but I feel like that is part of the point. He's half-trained, he should be throwing fits.

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I can actually agree with that.

Personally I think they want to take him from basically a 'joke' to an actual nightmare. Hard but if done properly it could be huge.

I don't really agree with the direction... but I'll see where it goes... especially since the movie really (and it shows) was not built to be a stand alone piece.

 

[Poor Man]

I like it when the heroes win by cleverness, utilizing their individual talents and skills, and persevering against the odds.

I don't like it when the heroes can spend the movies bumbling around like a pack of morons and save the day by being lucky or running into grossly incompetent enemies (or ~oooh must be the fooorce~) every single time.

For me, the movie felt like they took the old movies and some bad fanfic, and then smashed them together until they had some sequence of related events. It was absolutely awful.

Ren winning that fight would have greatly helped with his status as a villain. The dude is a whiny little bitch, but I feel like that is part of the point. He's half-trained, he should be throwing fits.

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This was especially annoying for me, because he demonstrated that he could casually win at the start of the fight (can easily fling Ray -- the one strong in the force* -- around like a rag doll), and then just... didn't. Why not? Was he using all his force powers to keep his luscious hair from obscuring his view?

* aka the bad plot device to deus ex machina her way out of any bad situation she gets into. Seriously am I just forgetting something? Because I'm pretty sure that was not how the force was used in the previous episodes. And if the force can do things like make her a sharp shooter with a laser pistol, and out-gun trained soldiers who have been apparently doing this since childhood, after having exactly one practice shot... why isn't Dork Helmet casually flinging planets around after practicing the force for a weekend? Just get Evil Overlord Scone to take him out for an Evil Overlord Brunch and show him how to use Force Win Everytime.


Some fun things that happen in this movie:

Fin feels the First Order is wrong in its cruelty, and can't bring himself to kill villagers. He is shown as distraught when one of his fellow soldiers is killed. He immediately after starts slaughtering his former comrades left and right, and is then totally fine committing genocide against an entire planet of them. In fact, he even seems excited and expresses glee in these actions. What the fuck, Fin?

Eye-glass lady that can see what topping you put on your toast yesterday morning by looking into your eyes: "Luke's light saber. I've kept it locked away all these years. In an unlocked box, behind an unlocked door, down some easily-accessible stairs, in my hive of scum and villainy where anyone can saunter through any time they felt like it. Yes. Locked away. This is a good plot development I swear."

Storm trooper: "Oh look a guy completely untrained with a light saber is trying to fight me with a light saber -- a weapon that is difficult to use properly and requires much training to master. Better toss my gun away and take out my shocky stick."

Dork Helmet: "Maybe my injuries will fix themselves if I punch them hard enough! Yeah!" *starts punching himself in the middle of a fight*

Every single person in the film: "Lol look at me I'm a sarcastic little shit haha!"

 

[Imabot]

I agree with most of what you said. But even i fell need to share my opinion of few poits mentioned.

Fin feels the First Order is wrong in its cruelty, and can't bring himself to kill villagers. He is shown as distraught when one of his fellow soldiers is killed. He immediately after starts slaughtering his former comrades left and right, and is then totally fine committing genocide against an entire planet of them. In fact, he even seems excited and expresses glee in these actions. What the fuck, Fin?

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Well. To be honest there is BIG difrence between slaughtering bunch of rounded up defenseless villagers and trying to stop army of indoctrinated soldiers that have planet destroying super weapon, from killing everyone else.

Storm trooper: "Oh look a guy completely untrained with a light saber is trying to fight me with a light saber -- a weapon that is difficult to use properly and requires much training to master. Better toss my gun away and take out my shocky stick."

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Getting things into close quarter combat make fight more personal and intimate. That brainwashed storm trooper was overcome with desire to kill a traitor to the cause and someone he would call a comrade in arms. It became matter of honor, when you want to kill your enemy on relativity equal ground ( Finn wasn't carrying any long ranged weapon) and prove you're were superior.

Dork Helmet: "Maybe my injuries will fix themselves if I punch them hard enough! Yeah!" *starts punching himself in the middle of a fight*

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Ben was causing himself more pain. And more pain angered him even more. And more anger was fueling his Dark Side he connected with to keep himself conscious and capable of moving. I didn't quite work out in the end. But I could see this must have been reasoning behind this. And unlike Rey, Kalo Ren was trained in using Dark Side of the Force.

 

[Poor Man]

Well. To be honest there is BIG difrence between slaughtering bunch of rounded up defenseless villagers and trying to stop army of indoctrinated soldiers that have planet destroying super weapon, from killing everyone else.

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Yes, but I thought it was rather odd that they took time to melodramatically show him being sad/horrified over a comrade dying in his first scene, and then a few scenes after that he's killing the same comrades left and right and laughing about it. Like he's all gleeful about it. He's happy to be murdering the people he grew up with, who were raised like he was, and may have many of the same thoughts and inner struggles he does.

Getting things into close quarter combat make fight more personal and intimate. That brainwashed storm trooper was overcome with desire to kill a traitor to the cause and someone he would call a comrade in arms. It became matter of honor, when you want to kill your enemy on relativity equal ground ( Finn wasn't carrying any long ranged weapon) and prove you're were superior.

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It's just annoying for me to see villains cripple themselves for some kind of "honor". Especially because the heroes are winning partly because they don't share any desire for honor. That also plays odd with the whole light side and dark side thing, from my view.

They also should really not have had any expectation that nobody would interfere in their fight. It was a ridiculously stupid thing to do, even if believable (assuming storm trooper training is clumsy and doesn't work well).

Ben was causing himself more pain. And more pain angered him even more. And more anger was fueling his Dark Side he connected with to keep himself conscious and capable of moving. I didn't quite work out in the end. But I could see this must have been reasoning behind this. And unlike Rey, Kalo Ren was trained in using Dark Side of the Force.

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I guessed it was something like that, but it was still funny to watch. He needed all his dark side focus to keep them luscious locks out of his eyes. Too bad he forgot to reason about his ability to casually toss his opponents around like yoyos.

 

[Imabot]

A though occurred to me.

What you guys think if this new movie wasn't about Rey aweakening but focused on Hero Journey of two opposite personalities. Finnn and Kalo Ren/Ben Solo.

Finn is a former storm trooper that left First Order, finds courage to fight for what is right and decided to stand his ground in defense of it. In parallel to him we would have Kalo Ren. A former Jedi that willingly removed all good out of his own life, becoming more powerful and evil. And in the final scene we would have these two have their first major confrontation. A struggle of two men on their journey were their paths cross. One that chose to walk in light and other who embraced darkness.

 

[Xicree]

Yes, but I thought it was rather odd that they took time to melodramatically show him being sad/horrified over a comrade dying in his first scene, and then a few scenes after that he's killing the same comrades left and right and laughing about it. Like he's all gleeful about it. He's happy to be murdering the people he grew up with, who were raised like he was, and may have many of the same thoughts and inner struggles he does.

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From what I hear that particular soldier was likely a close friend of his.


To be 100% honest I think this movie actually needed another half an hour worth of scenes to flesh it out. It was too rushed in a bunch of places which felt like if there was a good bit cut from it in order to meet the 2 1/2 hour marker.

 

[BlackHadou]

To be fair, Kylo was very injured by Chewie and even Finn to an extent, and she knew her way around the staff before she picked the saber up,

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Okay, you know what, I've seen this so many times that, as someone whose trained to use a staff and a spear, I have to address this.

They don't translate to swordsmanship, at all. The principles of swordsmanship are completely different and focused far less around leverage. Rey's ability to use a staff is faux foreshadowing of an ability to use a lightsaber at best. The skills genuinely do not cross over.

 

[Tavarokk]

The skills genuinely do not cross over.

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Even if they did, lightsabers require special training, being much lighter weapons with almost zero inertia, much shorter grip and potential to inflict damage with a barest touch to target and user alike.

Staff skills would've been a detriment as much as help, given that retraining is always a pain in the ass.

 

[BlackHadou]

Even if they did, lightsabers require special training, being much lighter weapons with almost zero inertia, much shorter grip and potential to inflict damage with a barest touch to target and user alike.

Staff skills would've been a detriment as much as help, given that retraining is always a pain in the ass.

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Far more detrimental then any help it could be, really. A staff and especially a spear in part relies on its weight as much as its length. Rey isn't using a weapon with the length nor weight she's used to. It really turns what should have been good foreshadowing into a "how did Kylo's first block not tear your weapon from your grip?".

 

[Red Sectoid]

Eh fair enough, unfortunately Rule of Cool is a worse explanation but I still feel like it was fine.

 

[Xicree]

Far more detrimental then any help it could be, really. A staff and especially a spear in part relies on its weight as much as its length. Rey isn't using a weapon with the length nor weight she's used to. It really turns what should have been good foreshadowing into a "how did Kylo's first block not tear your weapon from your grip?".

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Yeah, they could have show it a bit better... BUT they did show that her movements when holding the sabre were similar to those when holding the staff... the same stalking motions, the same way of thinking about the weapon (which I'll admit should have gotten in the way more) and a similar philosophy of weapon use to what she did when she had the staff.

Adapting that philosophy to the sabre along with 'force guidance' and what I assume was also her 'learning' from sensing a connection to other jedi who used it though the artefact itself.


Which actually synergies really well with her forces assisted 'Machine Empathy' which she seems to have maxed out from living as a virtual hermit scrap scavenger.

 

[snthsnth]

Yeah, they could have show it a bit better... BUT they did show that her movements when holding the sabre were similar to those when holding the staff... the same stalking motions, the same way of thinking about the weapon (which I'll admit should have gotten in the way more) and a similar philosophy of weapon use to what she did when she had the staff.

Adapting that philosophy to the sabre along with 'force guidance' and what I assume was also her 'learning' from sensing a connection to other jedi who used it though the artefact itself.


Which actually synergies really well with her forces assisted 'Machine Empathy' which she seems to have maxed out from living as a virtual hermit scrap scavenger.

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In other words, no it shouldn't have worked, but does due to space magic.

An expert in the field just told you that it doesn't work that way. Staff skills would be completely incompatible with the saber. You may as well equate a mace and a dagger. Saying that the force made it work is just excusing the film maker's mistake.

 

[Xicree]

In other words, no it shouldn't have worked, but does due to space magic.

An expert in the field just told you that it doesn't work that way. Staff skills would be completely incompatible with the saber. You may as well equate a mace and a dagger. Saying that the force made it work is just excusing the film maker's mistake.

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But... that's what I'm saying.

Exactly that it SHOULDN'T have worked. I've been saying that it SHOULDN'T have worked from the onset... but that it did within the bounds of the rules of the movie's own 'physics' because the Space magic IS a thing.

And that you could see how SHE the person was in between trying use it the familiar way which wouldn't work and the way the Space Magic was TELLING her to do it.



What establishes that she manages to pull all of this best is the scene where she touches the Sabre and is getting flashbacks from it's previous users... which sets up the very strong suggestion that she was basically tapping into a wellspring of experience in using it that she would not have had otherwise.

 

[snthsnth]

But... that's what I'm saying.

Exactly that it SHOULDN'T have worked. I've been saying that it SHOULDN'T have worked from the onset... but that it did within the bounds of the rules of the movie's own 'physics' because the Space magic IS a thing.

And that you could see how SHE the person was in between trying use it the familiar way which wouldn't work and the way the Space Magic was TELLING her to do it.



What establishes that she manages to pull all of this best is the scene where she touches the Sabre and is getting flashbacks from it's previous users... which sets up the very strong suggestion that she was basically tapping into a wellspring of experience in using it that she would not have had otherwise.

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Actually, the core of my disagreement is that I don't think she should have had enough expertise in space magic to do any of the space magic things she does.

If she's not letting the force guide her, she must be resisting it's guidance in the proper way to manage a saber, which the visions are showing her. Despite that it's still guiding her better than it does a (partly trained) Sith, who likely has a lot of saber training.

This feels kinda like the force is saying, 'do whatever guys, I'll make sure the one I want to win does.' That is both contrived and a Deus Ex Machina. She doesn't need to go train, she'll win if the force/writer wants her too.

 

[Xicree]

Actually, the core of my disagreement is that I don't think she should have had enough expertise in space magic to do any of the space magic things she does.

If she's not letting the force guide her, she must be resisting it's guidance in the proper way to manage a saber, which the visions are showing her. Despite that it's still guiding her better than it does a (partly trained) Sith, who likely has a lot of saber training.

This feels kinda like the force is saying, 'do whatever guys, I'll make sure the one I want to win does.' That is both contrived and a Deus Ex Machina. She doesn't need to go train, she'll win if the force/writer wants her too.

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You mean the win she BARELY edged out against a man who was nearly literally Holding himself together after getting blasted by a weapon which EVERY OTHER TIME it was used on someone it sent them flying and KILLED them?

Said same man who was BLEEDING OUT... And JUST came from ANOTHER fight while in this same state?


... your perceptions are distinctly skewed.

 

[BlackHadou]

You mean the win she BARELY edged out against a man who was nearly literally Holding himself together after getting blasted by a weapon which EVERY OTHER TIME it was used on someone it sent them flying and KILLED them?

Said same man who was BLEEDING OUT... And JUST came from ANOTHER fight while in this same state?


... your perception are distinctly skewed.

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Given Kylo physically manhandled Finn in the previous fight after taking a hit and getting pissed?

Well... there's a lot of issues in the last fight, frankly. Kylo being wounded for the entirety of it was actually a really good narrative decision. The writers simply screwed up on the "and you know what, the heroes should be forced to flee" part. Given Kylo's trying to keep his guts from spilling out, chase is impossible.

That would have been a far more clever ending, I feel. Even with a lightsaber, the skill set Rey has is so inapplicable that honestly, its worse then if she wasn't trained at all.

 

[Smuthunter]

Yeah, not agreeing with anyone who says Rey won that fight by herself. KR got blasted by Chewie and chopped up by Finn and was bleeding out the whole time he spent fighting, and heavy exertion is going to make him bleed that much faster.

Should she have won at all? Eh. I'm more interested in what this whole "awakening" of the Force is supposed to be. Assuming it's not just poetic talk about a new chosen one or something it implies that the Force itself is changing somehow, which has some really wild implications given that it touches every single thing in the setting.

 

[BlackHadou]

Yeah, not agreeing with anyone who says Rey won that fight by herself. KR got blasted by Chewie and chopped up by Finn and was bleeding out the whole time he spent fighting, and heavy exertion is going to make him bleed that much faster.

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My point of contention is, honestly, even with the deck stacked hard against Kylo, Rey's skillset is so completely inapplicable she should have lost anyway.

 

[Smuthunter]

My point of contention is, honestly, even with the deck stacked hard against Kylo, Rey's skillset is so completely inapplicable she should have lost anyway.

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While I see where you're coming from, the theory that her tech empathy is letting her draw on Luke and Anakin's skills through the lightsaber satisfies my SOD sufficiently that I don't see it as an issue.

 

[BlackHadou]

While I see where you're coming from, the theory that her tech empathy is letting her draw on Luke and Anakin's skills through the lightsaber satisfies my SOD sufficiently that I don't see it as an issue.

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The problem is that I don't buy that, because her Tech Empathy, to me, doesn't actually make that much sense in the first place. It's not really a skill that's been demonstrated in the Star Wars movies before.

There's also the fact that I don't really agree that a lightsaber would hold the skills of the one who used it, but that's a circular argument no one can win, so I'll let that one slide.

 

[Smuthunter]

The problem is that I don't buy that, because her Tech Empathy, to me, doesn't actually make that much sense in the first place. It's not really a skill that's been demonstrated in the Star Wars movies before.

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Both of her predecessors had a great deal of success at using the Force while flying starfighters. It's not quite the same thing but it does follow a pattern of Mundane Skill + Force = Awesome.

 

[BlackHadou]

Both of her predecessors had a great deal of success at using the Force while flying starfighters. It's not quite the same thing but it does follow a pattern of Mundane Skill + Force = Awesome.

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Problem is the former is actually easily explained by Force Precognition, which is a ability all force users have to an extent, and already having a significant knowledge of how piloting is done (in fact, if the EU is to be believed, the T-16 shares control schemes with the X-Wing precisely so that the Rebels could employ as many people as pilots as possible). Rey, on the other hand, has no skill in swordsmanship whatsoever.

I'd have bought it if her side-arm all movie had been a vibroblade or a club, but a staff?

 

[Smuthunter]

Problem is the former is actually easily explained by Force Precognition, which is a ability all force users have to an extent, and already having a significant knowledge of how piloting is done (in fact, if the EU is to be believed, the T-16 shares control schemes with the X-Wing precisely so that the Rebels could employ as many people as pilots as possible). Rey, on the other hand, has no skill in swordsmanship whatsoever.

I'd have bought it if her side-arm all movie had been a vibroblade or a club, but a staff?

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I'm pretty sure T-16s don't have proton torpedo launchers, and if we're being picky flying a skyhopper in an atmosphere isn't going to be anything like flying a starfighter in space. And I kinda doubt Anakin's podracer was anything at all like a Naboo N1.

 

[snthsnth]

You mean the win she BARELY edged out against a man who was nearly literally Holding himself together after getting blasted by a weapon which EVERY OTHER TIME it was used on someone it sent them flying and KILLED them?

Said same man who was BLEEDING OUT... And JUST came from ANOTHER fight while in this same state?


... your perceptions are distinctly skewed.

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She went from losing badly to winning easily in a second, using skills that don't apply or that she didn't train for. She got handed power. Kylo was not sufficiently hampered by his wounds to lose.

 

[BlackHadou]

Anakin's podracer was anything at all like a Naboo N1

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I kinda wanna point out this is false equivalence, as Anakin did very little flying period in that battle.

and if we're being picky flying a skyhopper in an atmosphere isn't going to be anything like flying a starfighter in space

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That's what R2's for.

 

[Smuthunter]

That's what R2's for.

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R2 doesn't actually do anything aside from run in-flight repairs as far as I can tell.

 

[BlackHadou]

R2 doesn't actually do anything aside from run in-flight repairs as far as I can tell.

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Then why the heck is he on the X-Wing, if he's not removing the tedium of flying so the pilot can focus on actually flying? That actually seems like a incredible design flaw in both the X-Wing and the Y-Wing.

 

[Dakkaface]

The problem is that I don't buy that, because her Tech Empathy, to me, doesn't actually make that much sense in the first place. It's not really a skill that's been demonstrated in the Star Wars movies before.

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Neither is Time Fuckery Stasis, but Kylo Ren seems to have it. New movies are ditching the old canon and making new shit up, so roll with it.

Then why the heck is he on the X-Wing, if he's not removing the tedium of flying so the pilot can focus on actually flying? That actually seems like a incredible design flaw in both the X-Wing and the Y-Wing.

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IIRC astromechs act as a supplemental navicomp, effect emergency repairs, and handle minutia like shifting power around to better angle shields and such so the pilot doesn't have to. They don't actually make any piloting decisions. Unless that's another EU factoid that got thrown out, only specific, specialized pilot droids can actually fly ships.