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Star Wars! Spoilers Allowed So Beware!

Xicree said:
Because I don't think they actually WERE at war with the new 'Empire wannabes'.

The Rebellion was, the republic were basically a country who had sovereign power... basically they got nuked as a first attack in a war that they didn't see coming (possibly cause they didn't realize that the nuke strike could actually be done without them seeing it coming)
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I can't see why the legitimized Rebellion would allow any organization to use the uniforms of its greatest enemy without imposing sanctions. This just does not make senc-

Ah, they wanted to capture the underdog feel of Ep4, 5, and 6, but were to lazy to do it properly. Yeah, that makes sense.
 
Xicree said:
The Rebellion was, the republic were basically a country who had sovereign power... basically they got nuked as a first attack in a war that they didn't see coming (possibly cause they didn't realize that the nuke strike could actually be done without them seeing it coming)
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I've got a big problem with the Republic's inability to notice the First Order constructing a giant super weapon out of a planet that was incredibly obvious from space, and not taking the time to find out what it was for or what it was capable of.

Did the Republic have literally no Intelligence Organization? Did the Resistance not have one either? It's insane that literally no one saw it coming until the First Order was ready to go. It had to have taken years at least, so much manpower, so many resources... just not realistic in the slightest on that front.
 
Valette-Serafina said:
Ah, they wanted to capture the underdog feel of Ep4, 5, and 6, but were to lazy to do it properly. Yeah, that makes sense.
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To be fair they wanted to capture the everything feel of Episodes 4-6. The entire movie was so similar to the original trilogy and had SO much call back saturation that it might as well have been a reboot instead of a continuation.

Here's hoping the next movies turn out to be more unique, or the movie side of Star Wars will probably be dead for me.
 
CptTagon said:
Also, they are apparently doing side stories like Rogue One and Solo vs Fett
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I heard the dude who was making the tie fighter short is trying talking with disney about trying to make it into an actual series. Fingers crossed, and hoping that if it happens it'll be good. It could also be one of the few routes that would give the ability to introduce some of the more respected EU characters like Thrawn and Pellaeon since it would focus on imperial characters.
 
The First Order are mostly separate from the rump state that is the Imperial Remnant iirc, the First Order basically went into the unknown regions to start conquering and set up colonies to secretly build up their forces.

The Imperial Remnant have been nearly totally disarmed and are under crippling sanctions and disarmament treaties but certain companies in the Republic sell them (and the Order) stuff under the table, they're not even supposed to have built new Star Destroyers under the treaty.

The Republic's capital isn't coruscant its the Hosnian system and it rotates every several years. The "Grand Army" has been dismantled except for a small portion directly under the control of the capital/senate with the rest of it being under the authority of each member nation/planet mainly because they're all trying to make sure another Palpatine situation never happens again (or at least make it really difficult).

Leia founded the Resistance because as far as the Republic has seen it kicked the shit out of the Empire and its no threat to them so she kinda comes off as a warhawk like Cheney, Bush and Blair talking about how Sadam the First Order has weapons of mass destruction Star Destroyers. Its financed by her and sympathetic senators so they have a deniable force to attack the Order with under the table.

Starkiller base was likely built/hollowed out in the unknown regions and moved because it has a hyperdrive system.

Thats what I can remember from what people have said about the Visual Dictionary and tie-in prequel stuff/the novelization.
 
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See, in the original trilogy we were given enough backstory in film to know an adequate amount of the world the films take place in. The requirement of reading the supplementary materials to know why the good guys are still a rebellion and how the bad guys have so much tech is a pretty strong mark against the new films.
 
1986ctcel said:
The First Order are mostly separate from the rump state that is the Imperial Remnant iirc, the First Order basically went into the unknown regions to start conquering and set up colonies to secretly build up their forces.

The Imperial Remnant have been nearly totally disarmed and are under crippling sanctions and disarmament treaties but certain companies in the Republic sell them (and the Order) stuff under the table, they're not even supposed to have built new Star Destroyers under the treaty.

The Republic's capital isn't coruscant its the Hosnian system and it rotates every several years. The "Grand Army" has been dismantled except for a small portion directly under the control of the capital/senate with the rest of it being under the authority of each member nation/planet mainly because they're all trying to make sure another Palpatine situation never happens again (or at least make it really difficult).

Leia founded the Resistance because as far as the Republic has seen it kicked the shit out of the Empire and its no threat to them so she kinda comes off as a warhawk like Cheney, Bush and Blair talking about how Sadam the First Order has weapons of mass destruction Star Destroyers. Its financed by her and sympathetic senators so they have a deniable force to attack the Order with under the table.

Starkiller base was likely built/hollowed out in the unknown regions and moved because it has a hyperdrive system.

Thats what I can remember from what people have said about the Visual Dictionary and tie-in prequel stuff/the novelization.
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The fact that at best, that gets a passing mention in the movie is a pretty huge black mark.
 
BlackHadou said:
The fact that at best, that gets a passing mention in the movie is a pretty huge black mark.
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*shrugs* this movie mostly seems about setting up the story/groundwork for the next two also there was around 40 minutes of deleted scenes that had stuff like Leia sending one of her operatives to the capital to try and get the Republic to send more help/funds (she's the one who has Leia's hairstyle in the shot of people on Hosnia going "Aww shit we're dead")

Also the First Order are legimately insane like they pretty much ARE Space!North Korea fused with the Empire's Imperial/Nazi Germany. That speech Hux gave? That's not embellishment or anything they LITERALLY believe the Republic is an evil anarchic hellhole on the verge of collapse thats spreading chaos and disorder after overthrowing the benevolent Empire.

Hux, Kylo Ren and Phasma also seem to be mostly figures for Propaganda more than effectiveness, Hux got his position thanks to nepotism from being the son of the last Imperial General along with some good old stabbing his superiors in the back and whose knowledge of combat is mostly academic. Kylo Ren is half-trained and hasn't actually been in a real fight that doesn't involve killing people who can't fight back for years, Phasma's armor is made from Chromium recovered from the emperors personally yacht iirc.
 
BlackHadou said:
The fact that at best, that gets a passing mention in the movie is a pretty huge black mark.
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Supposedly there was a scene cut from the film that would have been between Leia and the lady that it zooms in on as the senate is being destroyed that would have explained a lot of the current political climate.

Problem is, those sorts of scenes were the kind of thing that so many star wars fans said they HATED from the prequels, "too much talking, not enough action"

So it was cut.

It also might have been cut because Carrie Fisher couldn't act worth a damn in this movie and she might have ruined the scene.
 
Cambrian said:
Supposedly there was a scene cut from the film that would have been between Leia and the lady that it zooms in on as the senate is being destroyed that would have explained a lot of the current political climate.

Problem is, those sorts of scenes were the kind of thing that so many star wars fans said they HATED from the prequels, "too much talking, not enough action"

So it was cut.

It also might have been cut because Carrie Fisher couldn't act worth a damn in this movie and she might have ruined the scene.
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Its less to much talking abd more focusing on it for so long without anything else happening. The original trilogy could exposite what was needed while moving forward, the prequels stopped frikken everything to focus on every little detail of some minor polical manoeuvre thats going to change nothing of note. The new one says screw it to explaining and just runs forward at full speed nonstop hoping the tunnel vision keeps you fro seeing the giant chasms in the plot.
 
BlackHadou said:
The fact that at best, that gets a passing mention in the movie is a pretty huge black mark.
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To be honest... as always with the Starwars canon... the Movie is actually always less canon than the Alan Dean Foster books. Everyone else's books are even less than that, but at the top are are basically anything written by Alan... then the movies... then everything else.
 
snthsnth said:
See, in the original trilogy we were given enough backstory in film to know an adequate amount of the world the films take place in. The requirement of reading the supplementary materials to know why the good guys are still a rebellion and how the bad guys have so much tech is a pretty strong mark against the new films.
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It's JJ Abrams biggest problem as a writer

He has no worldbuilding skill as a writer, and people got so enamored with Lost because they basically made shit up for him without him ever making sense of the setting whatsoever

Samet thing with Cloverfield and the Star Trek reboot up until...was it image or marvel comics that made that prequel comic?

Whichever.

Basically what I'm saying is stop giving Abrams credit he isn't due

Especially since he's practically an anti-Joss Whedon
 
Need to vent again.

I had assumed that the First Order was to the Imperial Remnant what the Resistance was to the New Republic. Given that they talk about the New Republic and the Remnants of the Empire signing a peace treaty, I just assumed the First Order and the Resistance were the method by which the two nations who were officially at peace kept on fighting one another under the table.

But nope. Today I found out that the Empire was forced to sign this peace treaty, and it wasn't so much a peace treaty as a "Give us all your stuff and be assimilated mothafucka" agreement. After this the military sections of the Empire made their way into the Unknown Regions, get taken over by Snoke, and become the First Order, which is actually the legitimate successor to the Empire because of this.

This... disappoints me quite a bit.

I continue to miss the EU...
 
Cambrian said:
Need to vent again.

I had assumed that the First Order was to the Imperial Remnant what the Resistance was to the New Republic. Given that they talk about the New Republic and the Remnants of the Empire signing a peace treaty, I just assumed the First Order and the Resistance were the method by which the two nations who were officially at peace kept on fighting one another under the table.

But nope. Today I found out that the Empire was forced to sign this peace treaty, and it wasn't so much a peace treaty as a "Give us all your stuff and be assimilated mothafucka" agreement. After this the military sections of the Empire made their way into the Unknown Regions, get taken over by Snoke, and become the First Order, which is actually the legitimate successor to the Empire because of this.

This... disappoints me quite a bit.

I continue to miss the EU...
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The new EU, like the old EU, is a mixed bag.

It didn't take long for the new EU to become a mixed bag, though. You'd have thought they'd do their absolute best to make the first new continuity content as good as possible to keep people from making old EU comparisons.

...

I miss the old EU too. The new EU seems different for the sake of being different.
 
BlackHadou said:
The new EU, like the old EU, is a mixed bag.

It didn't take long for the new EU to become a mixed bag, though. You'd have thought they'd do their absolute best to make the first new continuity content as good as possible to keep people from making old EU comparisons.

...

I miss the old EU too. The new EU seems different for the sake of being different.
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Which is pretty funny since the The Force Awakens is the opposite, in that its completely the same for the sake of being completely the same.

I haven't touched the New EU though. If it's the same writers from the old EU being contracted to write the new EU, I can see why they're not trying to rewrite their old books. Even if it's completely new writers writing the new EU, I can see why they probably CANT rewrite the old stuff and call it their own.
 
Moving the debate from the Fiction Bitching thread to here.

aja318 said:
You are wrong, prequels were much better.
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aja318 said:
No, just no. I will take prequels any time over shit that everyone seem to love.
We got shit with newest movie and it's to date the worst one.
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You're free to not like it and its retread plot that depends heavily on coincidence (or Force fuckery) and Rey being a special destined snowflake. You're free to not like Abrams tendency to be Michael Bay-lite. That's fine, it can't be everyone's cup of tea, and there are lots of things I dislike about Ep VII too.

But don't tell me the prequels were better. The acting within the movie is leaps and bounds better than in the prequels. Lucas had a acting giants on tap for Eps I-III and squandered them. Natalie Portman, Liam Neeson, Ewan MacGregor, Samuel Jackson, Christopher fucking Lee. Even Hayden Christensen is better than his Anakin would indicate. Not only did Lucas actively stifle actor decisions during the prequel trilogy, he directed his actors into the most wooden performances they've ever given. He gave them lines like 'I don't like sand,' 'Want to buy some deathsticks?' and the completely nonsensical 'I have the high ground!' Don't tell me that sewage stew of terrible acting and shitty lines was better than VII, where we actually got fun, screwball dialogue a la the original trilogy delivered in a believable manner.

As far as plot goes, the prequels are no better than VII, and are considerably more disjointed. Ep 1 is entirely forgettable. It serves no purpose in the overall story. The fan recommended 'machete' viewing order drops it entirely, and the whole movie is a bizarre hodgepodge of crammed together visual effects and action sequences that don't accomplish anything in service to the story of Darth Vader's Background or The Fall of the Republic. Dropping also removes that fucking 'midichlorians' nonsense.

Lucas completely fails to establish a consistent villain the way that Darth Vader is handled in the original trilogy. We have Maul, who has an AWESOME setup to be the next big antagonist, he kills a mentor in Ep 1, he's all set to leave Obi-wan behind and give him and Anakin some nice motivation in a future movie and... he's dead. Well, nevermind, look who his replacement is! Christopher Lee! Dooku is a bit underplayed in Ep 2, but he exudes menace and... well that duel with Yoda had kind of a crap ending, but it was cool for a bit. Can't wait to see what happens in Ep 3... where he dies like a chump in the first 10 minutes.

The prequels had the potential to be much better than they were, but as they were served to us, they are some of the worst movies I have sat through in a theater. I've seen worse, but only on DVD/TV/MST3K.
 
... To be honest, the Prequels weren't actually inherently bad. They just have the significant problem of the tie in light novels being significantly better (and fuck, tie Anakin into Jefi Apprentice and right there you have a prequel trilogy that naturally flows into the next phase of the story).

it really comes down to the prequels trying to cover too much in too little time.

Now that said, Episode 7. My opinion of it is higher then the prequels, but not by much. Its problems mostly stem from two things. A return to the Original Trilogy status quo, and it being a single work meant to be taken as part of a trilogy.

Thing is, neither of these are bad. But it does mean that it will alienate some.
 
Honestly, while the prequels weren't good, I enjoyed them more. I actually laughed at bits, and yes I groaned at the stupid bits, and I actually felt suspense at times. They had a fair share of bad writing and directing, but I could still get into it.

VII was just a constant feeling of meh. The only real peak of emotion I felt was when Chewie put a cap in Darth Hot Topic. And that was a just a "yes" and a small fist-pump at that.

And the prequels had less bits that obviously stood out as "wut" moments. Like the mind trick thing.
Having it used on you doesn't mean you can do it now.
Or the anvilicious death scene. Seriously, children next to me were actually calling it before it happened.
 
TheOtherSandman said:
VII was just a constant feeling of meh. The only real peak of emotion I felt was when Chewie put a cap in Darth Hot Topic. And that was a just a "yes" and a small fist-pump at that.
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Huh. It's precisely the opposite for me, honestly. The prequels never really got much of a rise out of me but I came out of TFA feeling absolutely heartbroken over Han's death even though some jackass on Anonkun spoiled it for me by putting it in a thread title right where I couldn't help but see it. That leadup too when the screen starts going dark and suddenly Ren won't let go of his saber? This is me and something approximating my thought process, hanging on the edge of my seat:

Oh no. No. Please don't do this. No no no no no no FFFFUUUUUUUUUUCK!

And then some poor girl down in the front row started sobbing.

I can understand not liking the film, because opinions are opinions. What I can't understand is not having a much more visceral attachment to it than anything the prequels ever did.
 
Dakkaface said:
Moving the debate from the Fiction Bitching thread to here.



You're free to not like it and its retread plot that depends heavily on coincidence (or Force fuckery) and Rey being a special destined snowflake. You're free to not like Abrams tendency to be Michael Bay-lite. That's fine, it can't be everyone's cup of tea, and there are lots of things I dislike about Ep VII too.

But don't tell me the prequels were better. The acting within the movie is leaps and bounds better than in the prequels. Lucas had a acting giants on tap for Eps I-III and squandered them. Natalie Portman, Liam Neeson, Ewan MacGregor, Samuel Jackson, Christopher fucking Lee. Even Hayden Christensen is better than his Anakin would indicate. Not only did Lucas actively stifle actor decisions during the prequel trilogy, he directed his actors into the most wooden performances they've ever given. He gave them lines like 'I don't like sand,' 'Want to buy some deathsticks?' and the completely nonsensical 'I have the high ground!' Don't tell me that sewage stew of terrible acting and shitty lines was better than VII, where we actually got fun, screwball dialogue a la the original trilogy delivered in a believable manner.

As far as plot goes, the prequels are no better than VII, and are considerably more disjointed. Ep 1 is entirely forgettable. It serves no purpose in the overall story. The fan recommended 'machete' viewing order drops it entirely, and the whole movie is a bizarre hodgepodge of crammed together visual effects and action sequences that don't accomplish anything in service to the story of Darth Vader's Background or The Fall of the Republic. Dropping also removes that fucking 'midichlorians' nonsense.

Lucas completely fails to establish a consistent villain the way that Darth Vader is handled in the original trilogy. We have Maul, who has an AWESOME setup to be the next big antagonist, he kills a mentor in Ep 1, he's all set to leave Obi-wan behind and give him and Anakin some nice motivation in a future movie and... he's dead. Well, nevermind, look who his replacement is! Christopher Lee! Dooku is a bit underplayed in Ep 2, but he exudes menace and... well that duel with Yoda had kind of a crap ending, but it was cool for a bit. Can't wait to see what happens in Ep 3... where he dies like a chump in the first 10 minutes.

The prequels had the potential to be much better than they were, but as they were served to us, they are some of the worst movies I have sat through in a theater. I've seen worse, but only on DVD/TV/MST3K.
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Prequels were better than Forxe Awaken, now my job here is done for now.
 
Smuthunter said:
Huh. It's precisely the opposite for me, honestly. The prequels never really got much of a rise out of me but I came out of TFA feeling absolutely heartbroken over Han's death even though some jackass on Anonkun spoiled it for me by putting it in a thread title right where I couldn't help but see it. That leadup too when the screen starts going dark and suddenly Ren won't let go of his saber? This is me and something approximating my thought process, hanging on the edge of my seat:

Oh no. No. Please don't do this. No no no no no no FFFFUUUUUUUUUUCK!

And then some poor girl down in the front row started sobbing.

I can understand not liking the film, because opinions are opinions. What I can't understand is not having a much more visceral attachment to it than anything the prequels ever did.
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The problem with Han's death was you pretty much knew he was going to die in the movie at some point, and the set up for the scene was so blatantly obvious that it utterly killed any amount of tension for me.
Before Ren even showed up, the setting alone had me going, "Welp, that's a character death location if I ever saw one."

As the film went on and I realized that the movie was just ANH with the serials filed off, most of the plot moments just became paint-by-numbers and lost a lot of the punch they might've had otherwise. Since being able to go, "and here is where they'll do X, followed by Y happening, then Z will show up," doesn't exactly build suspense.
 
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