The 'ugly' guy that gets the hot girl

[f0Ri5]

I'm reading a light novel called 'Breaking up with the heroine in an otome game', and the female leads are constantly remarking about how the MC doesn't have a good face, isn't attractive etc. But he still gets them in the end.

Man, this trope really annoys me. It's one of those things that takes 'suspension of disbelief' waaay too far. I'm sure if you go over the planet's population with a fine-toothed comb, you'd find a hot girl with an ugly guy, but it really is the exception that proves the rule.

Hot girls can be friends with ugly guys, but that's all it's ever going to be. They won't go for relationships, especially not when there are better options around. And this novel in particular was originally supposed to be a reverse harem novel with plenty of hot, rich and strong guys around.

To make matters worse, the protagonist doesn't have any special powers, unlike the other male characters. He just has information about the world, qualifying him to be a tactician type character. To be clear, I have no problem with that kind of story, I like it even, but it's like saying the high school chess captain valedictorian is pulling all the girls because of his brain. That just isn't true.

We all know the two rules to getting girls:
1.) Be attractive
2.) Don't be unattractive

Going the opposite way just really makes it hard for me immerse myself in a story's world. It just isn't believable. And this kind of thing appearing in a story is usually a symptom of a larger problem—a lack of understanding from the author on how worldbuilding works.

The foundation of worldbuilding should be a sort-of fundamental realism. Having regular people (that is to say, people that operate like actual human beings) react or behave differently when faced with a weird fantasy/sci-fi world.

It's not the degree and amount of differences between the real world and fictional worlds that make said fictional world interesting. It's the similarities. It makes the story feel grounded, like it's not just a bunch of garbled nonsense.

But maybe I'm ranting too much. So I'm done now.

 

[Sarrior]

I get where you're coming from, but I believe this is more of a case of Japanese bland MC and less of an ugly mugg. Also insulting your looks is a common shit-test that (mostly young) women do , so it checks out.

 

[Amazon Climber]

I am begging you to touch grass, because you've contracted the kind of brain-rot you only see in the terminally online. Like, I'm not going to pretend handsome guys don't have it much easier, but even a modicum of social interaction ought to cure you of the notion that only attractive (or wealthy) men get laid.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

We all know the two rules to getting girls:
1.) Be attractive
2.) Don't be unattractive

Click to shrink...

The actual rules for getting and keeping girls (and guys)

1.) Know what league you're in.
2.) Don't aim for people who are too far out of your league.

 

[AllyDoodle]

I like those kinds of stories. Especially when they go with happy fluff.

 

[f0Ri5]

I get where you're coming from, but I believe this is more of a case of Japanese bland MC and less of an ugly mugg. Also insulting your looks is a common shit-test that (mostly young) women do , so it checks out.

Click to shrink...

They say this behind the MC's back tho.

The actual rules for getting and keeping girls (and guys)

1.) Know what league you're in.
2.) Don't aim for people who are too far out of your league.

Click to shrink...

This is the right answer. It's not like I'm saying an average/ugly looking guy is doomed to be an eternal virgin. That's not the case. But he isn't going to land the supermodel chick, and he certainly isn't going to be banging multiple at the same time.

I am begging you to touch grass, because you've contracted the kind of brain-rot you only see in the terminally online. Like, I'm not going to pretend handsome guys don't have it much easier, but even a modicum of social interaction ought to cure you of the notion that only attractive (or wealthy) men get laid.

Click to shrink...

See above

 

[TheMidnightRook]

This is the right answer. It's not like I'm saying an average/ugly looking guy is doomed to be an eternal virgin. That's not the case. But he isn't going to land the supermodel chick, and he certainly isn't going to be banging multiple at the same time.

Click to shrink...

What league someone is in is determined by more than just looks. Personality, status, etc are factors as well.

 

[Amazon Climber]

What league someone is in is determined by more than just looks. Personality, status, etc are factors as well.

Click to shrink...

One of the archetypes of people - and I say archetypes because I met more than just a couple - I saw in the kink community is the type I've nicknamed the Ringmaster. They're quite fat, average to quite unattractive, and otherwise physically unremarkable. They're also gregarious, bombastic, and funny as anything, and have incredible skill with one or more toys. And they were always in relationships with beautiful young woman who didn't mind - or enjoyed watching them - play with other beautiful young women.

Turns out you really don't have to be handsome as long as you can make the girl you're into smile, laugh, and squirt in front of an audience.

 

[Puffycheese]

I am begging you to touch grass, because you've contracted the kind of brain-rot you only see in the terminally online. Like, I'm not going to pretend handsome guys don't have it much easier, but even a modicum of social interaction ought to cure you of the notion that only attractive (or wealthy) men get laid.

Click to shrink...

Yup

 

[f0Ri5]

Yup

Click to shrink...

Me: "unattractive guys lose out to attractive guys when it comes to women."

You guys: "Are you saying only hot guys get laid?!"

 

[Puffycheese]

Me: "unattractive guys lose out to attractive guys when it comes to women."

You guys: "Are you saying only hot guys get laid?!"

Click to shrink...

Actual quote: "Hot girls can be friends with ugly guys, but that's all it's ever going to be. "

 

[f0Ri5]

Actual quote: "Hot girls can be friends with ugly guys, but that's all it's ever going to be. "

Click to shrink...

Actual quote in context.

Hot girls can be friends with ugly guys, but that's all it's ever going to be. They won't go for relationships, especially not when there are better options around. And this novel in particular was originally supposed to be a reverse harem novel with plenty of hot, rich and strong guys around.

Click to shrink...

 

[Amazon Climber]

Actual quote in context.

Click to shrink...

In other words, exactly what we thought you said.

 

[Puffycheese]

Actual quote in context.

Click to shrink...

Even when there "plenty of hot, rich, strong guys around", yes, plenty of women will still be with the poor ugly guy instead, if she loves him, he's reliable, etc
Long term, being reliable is most important

 

[f0Ri5]

Even when there "plenty of hot, rich, strong guys around", yes, plenty of women will still be with the poor ugly guy instead, if she loves him, he's reliable, etc
Long term, being reliable is most important

Click to shrink...

Ah, yes—the surefire way to bang supermodel level chicks. Being reliable. To the extent of beating out guys that are way hotter, more popular, in shape, rich and are pretty reliable in their own right.

 

[TheMidnightRook]

Ah, yes—the surefire way to bang supermodel level chicks. Being reliable. To the extent of beating out guys that are way hotter, more popular, in shape, rich and are pretty reliable in their own right.

Click to shrink...

The operative words in Puffycheese's post were long term.

People look for different things in a relationship than they look for in a one night stand.

 

[f0Ri5]

The operative words in Puffycheese's post were long term.

People look for different things in a relationship than they look for in a one night stand.

Click to shrink...

You're saying those things aren't long term when money is one of the biggest reasons for divorce, and partners letting themselves go is likewise one of the biggest reasons for a dead bedroom.

 

[yhann]

My brother is fairly unattractive and has a nice gf. Seen a few guys like that over the years and I think it all comes down to charisma/leadership. Charisma determines a lot in life, including your incomes, status and how much a woman wants you. A lot of women are attracted by confident and powerfulmen even if the guy look like a gorilla.

Pretty damn sure my bro winged college by convincing his teachers he knew his stuff rather than by memorizing things btw, guy is a psychology(5y/master) major.

But I don't know about a guy being actually ugly. I guess you need to offer something else or something.

Money and looks are a big deal but culture and personnality are even bigger. In some cultures and to some people, divorce is just unacceptable and being a faithful husband / good father is all that counts.

 

[aquinas]

Thinks back to college. Remembers ugly one eared fat dude. Remembers ugly one eared fat dudes gf.

Nah. Grass must be touched.

 

[yhann]

Thinks back to college. Remembers ugly one eared fat dude. Remembers ugly one eared fat dudes gf.

Nah. Grass must be touched.

Click to shrink...

Guy was probably broke, not so bright or into fat chicks. No judging.

 

[aquinas]

Guy was probably broke, not so bright or into fat chicks. No judging.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, totally, guy comes up to me confidential-like: "God man, all I want is a nice doughy housewife and I keep getting stacked redheads with choking fetishes whenever I try to land a date."

That'd be a trip. He was broke though, but that's even further from the "be attractive, don't be unattractive" line. Or, I suppose underlines that "attractive" ain't what the people spouting it think it is.

 

[f0Ri5]

Anecdotes aren't good evidence. Which is why verbal testimony is valued so little in court. The effect of attractiveness is something that has been properly researched and understood. If you want me to believe you, show me the receipts.

(And 'touch grass' is likewise not an argument. It's simply an attempt to undermine what I said by attacking me personally.)



Sources are shown in the video.

 

[Amazon Climber]

dudes will be like "women only date based on looks they wouldn't go for a guy who isn't conventionally attractive" meanwhile the women in question are thirsting over the ghoul from fallout bc he's cool and wears cowboy boots

Click to shrink...

 

[Blundo]

The ghoul from Fallout kills people in open combat and is on TV, both traits which people find attractive. Neither are especially viable for the average person to emulate, for better or for worse. Only half joking here.

OP's first post isn't that unreasonable — people by and large end up in relationships with people within shouting distance of their looks, unless there's some other thing conferring high status (money, fame, power, clout in shared social circle, etc.). I don't think this is a bad thing personally, but it means that the whole "hot high-achieving girl with ugly guy who isn't popular or special" thing in fiction isn't particularly realistic — neither is "everyday sort of plain girl manages to actually lock down the incredibly hot dude with a tragic backstory instead of just being a one night stand" for that matter. It's wish fulfillment for those who want to believe that being "nice" or whatever is the sort of thing which will put them in a relationship w/ someone in the top 10% of looks, even though those people have plenty of options who are hot and 'nice'. Arguably that kind of wish fulfillment stuff can be harmful given that when people take it to heart, it's how you end up with bitter confused men who feel "owed" something, and women used for sex by guys who are never realistically going to be serious about them. But I don't think it's that bad as long as people remember what it is.

I do think it's a bit odd for that kind of unrealistic fictional character behavior to be the big deal breaker when plenty of others are tolerated, but I'm not going to claim it doesn't ring false at all.

 

[Renko]

Only attractive people can score attractive people? Why does this whole thing sounds like what Incels usually spout online? LMAO

I have this family member of mine who is not someone that you can describe as attractive but managed to get married to someone very very hot!

Heck! There are plenty of examples in IRL! A quick google search will show lots!

 

[Lightbringer]

I am begging you to touch grass, because you've contracted the kind of brain-rot you only see in the terminally online. Like, I'm not going to pretend handsome guys don't have it much easier, but even a modicum of social interaction ought to cure you of the notion that only attractive (or wealthy) men get laid.

Click to shrink...

Also that some women are just not worth the squeeze, beauty isn't never the sole factor.
I know a girl who rejected a very fine guy because 'he wasn't tall and handsome' (he was rich).
I remember that him being not 'handsome' fared a bit more for her, then she said that 'but beauty is not everything, right' and got annoyed when I said 'well, beauty has an expiration date. Everyone grows old.'

Sometimes the girl is not worth it. That is all.

 

[f0Ri5]

Only attractive people can score attractive people? Why does this whole thing sounds like what Incels usually spout online? LMAO

I have this family member of mine who is not someone that you can describe as attractive but managed to get married to someone very very hot!

Heck! There are plenty of examples in IRL! A quick google search will show lots!

Click to shrink...

Not like that woman is hideous, but let's not pretend she's supermodel level. That's not me insulting her, it's pretty easy to see the difference just by comparing her against girls of similar ethnicity.

Spoiler: Girl 1

Spoiler: Girl 2

Spoiler: Girl 3

 

[Mr. Mochi]

Eh. I agree that the trope is a bit overblown.

But I will say that top-shelf people are more picky and rightfully so- it's not just looks.

Before I get in to it, I think attractiveness is more than just looks. Personality, financial status, age, are strong factors as well. If you are personable and actually funny, and not just "meme funny", that turns someone who is average looking into someone more attractive than the "hot" guy. Ambitious guys always get women too, so guys that always work hard, noticeably seem smarter or become better groomed, are attractive no matter what.

I think to better understand women, you have to look at the constant male romance leads in rom-coms and female romance fantasies. The Vampire-Werewolf-Billionaire-Surgeon-Pirate angle. Two of those don't always have good looks, namely the werewolf and pirates. Also, there's a element of danger with those two, the werewolf is physically strong, and the pirate is volatile, reckless and crass.

So what makes those two attractive? Leadership, and a element of reckless fun normally forbidden to women. Both offer safety, protection and even niche status, but what's more important is that the challenge they bring. Women absolutely love the idea of "taming" a strong male. This chaotic figure listens to "me", and that's proof that "I" am "special" in whatever format that plays out.

What does this look like in reality? Assholes get girls. "I can fix him." "I can say whatever I want because my man does x." Think those bitchy military wives or the random white girl in the hood. They like that type because either those guys are physical specimens or because they offer access to societal taboos.

Comedians are a prime example of average looking guys who get hot girls.

Guys don't need to be 6'2 and handsome. But you better be smart, wealthy and confident if you wanna be with a 10/10s.

The problem is that the average looking guy is either socially incompetent, lazy, or dim and expects women to give him attention.

Good looking people will settle if the partner offers more to the table than looks.

Edit: In terms of writing tropes, incorporating real romance dynamics doesn't play well to a male audience. We like thinking that guy is just lucky to have a hot childhood devoted friend, rather than think this guy has spent his entire life figuring out how to tap that.

 

[Amazon Climber]

So what makes those two attractive? Leadership, and a element of reckless fun normally forbidden to women. Both offer safety, protection and even niche status, but what's more important is that the challenge they bring. Women absolutely love the idea of "taming" a strong male. This chaotic figure listens to "me", and that's proof that "I" am "special" in whatever format that plays out.

What does this look like in reality? Assholes get girls. "I can fix him." "I can say whatever I want because my man does x." Think those bitchy military wives or the random white girl in the hood. They like that type because either those guys are physical specimens or because they offer access to societal taboos.

Click to shrink...

I've always felt like the real reason "women like assholes" is a truism is because of the syllogistic fallacy. Women often like confident men. Assholes often have undue confidence. Therefore, women often wind up falling for assholes. But that doesn't mean women like them because they're assholes.

Also, the cynical side of me wonders how much of it comes from the fact that anyone keeping the woman you're into from dating you by selfishly dating her first is clearly an asshole.

 

[f0Ri5]

Eh. I agree that the trope is a bit overblown.

But I will say that top-shelf people are more picky and rightfully so- it's not just looks.

Before I get in to it, I think attractiveness is more than just looks. Personality, financial status, age, are strong factors as well. If you are personable and actually funny, and not just "meme funny", that turns someone who is average looking into someone more attractive than the "hot" guy. Ambitious guys always get women too, so guys that always work hard, noticeably seem smarter or become better groomed, are attractive no matter what.

I think to better understand women, you have to look at the constant male romance leads in rom-coms and female romance fantasies. The Vampire-Werewolf-Billionaire-Surgeon-Pirate angle. Two of those don't always have good looks, namely the werewolf and pirates. Also, there's a element of danger with those two, the werewolf is physically strong, and the pirate is volatile, reckless and crass.

So what makes those two attractive? Leadership, and a element of reckless fun normally forbidden to women. Both offer safety, protection and even niche status, but what's more important is that the challenge they bring. Women absolutely love the idea of "taming" a strong male. This chaotic figure listens to "me", and that's proof that "I" am "special" in whatever format that plays out.

What does this look like in reality? Assholes get girls. "I can fix him." "I can say whatever I want because my man does x." Think those bitchy military wives or the random white girl in the hood. They like that type because either those guys are physical specimens or because they offer access to societal taboos.

Comedians are a prime example of average looking guys who get hot girls.

Guys don't need to be 6'2 and handsome. But you better be smart, wealthy and confident if you wanna be with a 10/10s.

The problem is that the average looking guy is either socially incompetent, lazy, or dim and expects women to give him attention.

Good looking people will settle if the partner offers more to the table than looks.

Edit: In terms of writing tropes, incorporating real romance dynamics doesn't play well to a male audience. We like thinking that guy is just lucky to have a hot childhood devoted friend, rather than think this guy has spent his entire life figuring out how to tap that.

Click to shrink...

The male vs. female fantasy thing is pretty interesting. You really see the difference in people's preferences. Guys tend to like a harem, where women like the idea of multiple guys fighting over them, where they pick the best one. I confess I don't read much fiction for women. I'd guess they go for the bad boy in the end, but I can't say that for sure.