Cosmos Quest (Naruto/Lupin III)

iamnuff · Nov 18, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
First of all, you can't give a genin full clearance and privileges when it comes to confidential medical files - general-confidential ones, sure, but not ones to do with the treatment of kekkei genkai and clan heads and stuff. This means you need someone to oversee their work, who can be given full clearance within reason.

Second of all, have you never been in an office setting? Of course middle-management needs the authority to give orders to the underlings.

that's what I mean.

why does Team Office-lady need to have the authority of chunin? they aren't middle management. it sounds like they are bottom tier.

That makes this whole thing seem less like "bureaucratic idiocy forces three under-qualified ninja to take part in the exam just to be able to do their jobs" and more like " under-qualified ninja try and get a promotion using combat, then get wrecked"

it's been a couple of weeks since the bit where they were introduced, but I could have sworn it was "people less qualified than me have more authority than me because they are better fighters, despite the fact that I know what I'm doing and they don't"

on that note, can you tell us if they would have made it through the second task without our help? or was that something you would roll for?

Hymn of Ragnarok · Nov 18, 2013

Oh Furiko you sneaky bitch.

If I'm right. uju has a pretty good theory, that Kuyo was imitating us. In which case....hoooooooo boy does Sakura NOT want to see us. Like, Ino is gonna be crushed to hear this. A lot of people may not be happy with her right now. We got away with doing it to Tenten, who's pretty tough, but....

Anyway, it just occurred to me that one of the assumptions Furiko may be tricking us into making is that this was an act of malice, or at least the fault is entirely Kuyo's.

It's entirely possible that this was actually an accident. How? Because Sayuri is a filing clerk, not a combat ninja. As the saying goes, "The best swordsman in the world does not fear the second-best; he fears the worst because he doesn't know what that idiot will do."

Sayuri walked right into something a normal ninja would have known to avoid.

Alternatively, Sayuri ran right into something, imitating Ami's nigh-suicidal charge or another otherwise very competent genin, and she just wasn't that competent.

And for all we can bitch about Sayuri essentially being picked on a victimized in a fight against Kuyo, she literally knew what she was signing up for. Waiver and everything. So depending on how this shook out and who did what, we may be making a very, very bad assumption about what the hell just happened.

More info. Now. Preferably from Asuma, who seems most likely to soften the blow while giving it to us straight if uju is right and we're in a way responsible for this.

Vindictus · Nov 18, 2013

iamnuff said:
that's what I mean.

why does Team Office-lady need to have the authority of chunin? they aren't middle management. it sounds like they are bottom tier.

And, of course, because they're bottom tier shit-workers, they deserve to struggle to feed their families and barely make ends meet, despite exemplary service over multiple years?

Iamnuff, Sayuri was a grown woman with a family that she was supporting, and the only way to continue supporting them was to go up from the shit-tier office job to a middle management position. The ONLY REASON she wasn't able to was because she wasn't Chunin, and the only reason she wasn't Chunin was because Konoha prizes personal strength and power over organizational skills.

Make no mistake for it, Team Paperwork are the victims of a system that wasn't designed with their well-being in mind.

That makes this whole thing seem less like "bureaucratic idiocy forces three under-qualified ninja to take part in the exam just to be able to do their jobs" and more like " under-qualified ninja try and get a promotion using combat, then get wrecked"

Combat was literally their only option for advancement, and they were having harder and harder times paying the bills as bottom-rungers.

it's been a couple of weeks since the bit where they were introduced, but I could have sworn it was "people less qualified than me have more authority than me because they are better fighters, despite the fact that I know what I'm doing and they don't"

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the situation.

Because their job, and the promotion they were shooting for? Are on the same 'Career path'. But the job was going to combat nin, rather then desk nin, because the combat-nin get promoted while the Desk-nin are lolnoped because they can't stab things good enough.

FurikoMaru · Nov 18, 2013

uju32 said:
Is it odd that Sakura still uses honorifics even in distress?

Nope. Happens in Japanese all the time. Dropping honourifics in distress is a sign that you're really really close to someone.

uju32 said:
Those Ino, not that; get your grammar right.

Ino: I'm sorry, were there two piles of meat and shattered bone on that stretcher? I didn't stick around to check.

uju32 said:
QUESTION
What does the examination hall look like? Any fresh explosive damage?

Not extensive, no. If anything went off it wasn't much of a tag.

uju32 said:
How extensive was the damage to Sayuri's legs? Lower legs? Upper? Bone damage?

Kiba: Holy fuck. Uh. She just got here, and... it's fixable, yeah, but it's going to cost a lot. She might lose one of her feet. I do not want to be in this room when she wakes up.

uju32 said:
You did say the village was young, so odds are they're still feeling their way into things.
But it should be clear that there's no correlation between trustworthiness and combat experience.
At worst they could create a non-command ranking for non-combat duties.
Because really, a great manager is worth about as much as an S-class nin, and good medics are too precious to risk unnecessarily.

I completely agree.

Silversun17 · Nov 18, 2013

We are so leading the charge on getting this pile of fuck ups fixed.

Hymn of Ragnarok · Nov 18, 2013

Silversun17 said:
We are so leading the charge on getting this pile of fuck ups fixed.

Eh, leave it to Tenten, she's clearly already leading the crusade.

And you really overstate the situation. It's not a pile of fuck-ups. The system works by and large. Otherwise it won't have lasted as long as it has. It just isn't perfect, and this being a tradition based society, they're not going to change unless it's clearly not working anymore. But it is.

So, yeah. Good luck to anyone who wants to fix it and is not the Hokage or has the Hokage's ear. Point of fact this being a military dictatorship is probably Konoha's saving grace for change.

That, and anyone who starts seriously talking tradition to frickin' Sarutobi is going to get laughed out of the room.

iamnuff · Nov 18, 2013

Vindictus said:
And, of course, because they're bottom tier shit-workers, they deserve to struggle to feed their families and barely make ends meet, despite exemplary service over multiple years?

Iamnuff, Sayuri was a grown woman with a family that she was supporting, and the only way to continue supporting them was to go up from the shit-tier office job to a middle management position. The ONLY REASON she wasn't able to was because she wasn't Chunin, and the only reason she wasn't Chunin was because Konoha prizes personal strength and power over organizational skills.

Make no mistake for it, Team Paperwork are the victims of a system that wasn't designed with their well-being in mind.Combat was literally their only option for advancement, and they were having harder and harder times paying the bills as bottom-rungers.Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the situation.

Because their job, and the promotion they were shooting for? Are on the same 'Career path'. But the job was going to combat nin, rather then desk nin, because the combat-nin get promoted while the Desk-nin are lolnoped because they can't stab things good enough.

so?

My initial (mis)understanding was that they were medics, which would mean having someone in charge of you because they are better at combat) would be a very different thing than the same situation as a receptionist or a file-clerk.

and yes, an office jockey who deals in paperwork and doesn't have to risk their life on a daily/weekly basis should be getting a lot smaller of a pay-cheque than a active duty ninja.

Uju's comment about needing a non-command ranking for non-combat ninja is absolutely correct though, I get that konoha is a NINJA village, but having everyone in your entire government system be a ninja, and have their pay-cheque/privileges/clearance/ect be based entirely on combat skills rather than something actually relevant to their job, is...well, kinda retarded.

having all your doctors/receptionists/lawers/ect be ninja, is going to be a huge waste of their time and effort.

not to mention all the ones who will die or be crippled trying to get that promotion.

FurikoMaru · Nov 18, 2013

Tobirama would like to state for the record that this is not his fault.

Hymn of Ragnarok · Nov 18, 2013

You know considering the constant state of anything from tension to outright warfare, wanting all of your upper echelon to be combat trained and good enough to protect the secrets they hold really isn't that unreasonable.

These people literally make a business out of deception, spycraft, and treachery. The better you get, the more aware of how very fragile things can be and see openings and ways to exploit the status quo.

Wanting all your officers to have a certain level of talent to prevent some lucky/crafty jackass from pumping the sap dry of all their secrets? Not at all hard to understand.

"Wait, that lady is a chunin? Are you serious? I could sneak up behind her, club her over the head, stash her away and drain every secret file out of her head before ANBU even declare her missing. I sure as hell don't want her having access to my files, I don't trust her to protect them!"

Less bitching people. It's not a perfect system but it's not some organization of massive fuck-ups/incompetence/malice keeping the little girls down. Speaking of, I wonder how much of this outrage would happen if Sayuri was a man....yay for double standards that keep happening even when you're aware of them!

Chill.

Vindictus · Nov 18, 2013

iamnuff said:
so?

My initial (mis)understanding was that they were medics, which would mean having someone in charge of you because they are better at combat) would be a very different thing than the same situation as a receptionist or a file-clerk.

and yes, an office jockey who deals in paperwork and doesn't have to risk their life on a daily/weekly basis should be getting a lot smaller of a pay-cheque than a active duty ninja.

... So what you're saying is, they should be happy that they have no opportunity to advance ever unless the either prove themselves in the arena or switch over to a career in stabbing things?

Uju's comment about needing a non-command ranking for non-combat ninja is absolutely correct though, I get that konoha is a NINJA village, but having everyone in your entire government system be a ninja, and have their pay-cheque/privileges/clearance/ect be based entirely on combat skills rather than something actually relevant to their job, is...well, kinda retarded.

It's a military dictatorship, as stated previously. The government is the military.

Why doesn't it make sense for the important government functions be taken care of by trustworthy government employees?

having all your doctors/receptionists/lawers/ect be ninja, is going to be a huge waste of their time and effort.

not to mention all the ones who will die or be crippled trying to get that promotion.

The 'Doctors' use magic that, guess what, the Military government holds a monopoly on. And the receptionists, naturally, have to be a Government employee, and all Gov't employees are part of the military because the military is teh government.

I also don't think lawyers are even a thing here. The system of law is pretty damned simple- You do what the boss says, or the boss has you ganked.

Hymn of Ragnarok · Nov 18, 2013

Vindictus said:
I also don't think lawyers are even a thing here. The system of law is pretty damned simple- You do what the boss says, or the boss has you ganked.

Truly, the sign of an enlightened country is the lack of lawyers.

FurikoMaru · Nov 18, 2013

Hymn of Ragnarok said:
Speaking of, I wonder how much of this outrage would happen if Sayuri was a man....

I'd still be pissed, but then, I like men.

Hymn of Ragnarok · Nov 18, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
I'd still be pissed, but then, I like men.

But men are the expendable gender!

FurikoMaru · Nov 18, 2013

Hymn of Ragnarok said:
But men are the expendable gender!

Bitch I can grab tits and produce children whenever I want. What I can't do is sing baritone or hug myself from behind or have a conversation with a chick where neither one of us is looking for a secondary meaning to everything said.

But hell, I get a free defensive bonus out of this racket, so I'm not complaining.

Guile · Nov 18, 2013

iamnuff said:
wait, they are clerks rather than medics?

what do they need to be giving order for?

a desk-worker genin should be taking orders from a chunin.

Because clearly file clerks, no matter how experienced or dependable, need to be able to break a man's spine with their bare hands, or else take orders from someone who does.

Hymn of Ragnarok said:
Truly, the sign of an enlightened country is the lack of lawyers.

I am now imagining Tobirama in a Shakespearian frock coat and ruffle-y collar.

"First, let us kill all the lawyers."

iamnuff · Nov 18, 2013

Vindictus said:
... So what you're saying is, they should be happy that they have no opportunity to advance ever unless the either prove themselves in the arena or switch over to a career in stabbing things?

Didn't they drop out? and yet still get given a job? probably better paying than a civvy one?

It's a military dictatorship, as stated previously. The government is the military.

no reason to force your doctors to be ~~canonfodder~~ Foot-soldiers too.

Why doesn't it make sense for the important government functions be taken care of by trustworthy government employees?The 'Doctors' use magic that, guess what, the Military government holds a monopoly on. And the receptionists, naturally, have to be a Government employee, and all Gov't employees are part of the military because the military is teh government.

just because the military is the goverment doens't mean that every single person who works for the goverment also has to be a solider.

Thats still like expecting every member of middle management to be a SAS commando.

its a massive waste of their talents of a commando, and for every recruit who fails to completle their training/promotions to rank, they lose potentially valuable personnel.

also, your office workers don't need to be able to protect your secrets, thats what guards are for. (also, chunin level office workers would never be privy to anything too dangerous or valuable)

as for the magic doctor thing, you can train to use chakra (under the supervision of the government even!) without ever preparing for/entering direct combat.

mental/physical exercise to allow your to use your "magic" plus hours and hours of medical study would be the best way to train a "magical doctor"

"get someone with the rare talent to be a healer, then force them to go through direct combat (thus risking their lives and potential) before they even begin studying, then expecting them to go do more combat again every time they want a promotion?"

seems like a great way to waste a massive amount of time and effort training doctors, then getting them killed doing things that would better be done by someone who focused on stabbing things instead.

let the Ninja be ninja, and the doctors be doctors, they are still citizens of a ninja dictatorship, they still answer to the same guy, why do they need to risk their lives (and years of medical training) to do something that someone with no medical training could probably do better?

this is ignoring tsunades "battlefield medic" mentality, because the only person ever shown to actually use it before she trained sakura was her (and possibly rin)

it takes years of effort to be a good ninja, and just as long to be a good doctor, training someone to cross-class is probably just going to waste all that effort, because they won't be very good at either.

uju32 · Nov 18, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
Nope. Happens in Japanese all the time. Dropping honourifics in distress is a sign that you're really really close to someone.

Huh.
The more you know.

FurikoMaru said:
Ino: I'm sorry, were there two piles of meat and shattered bone on that stretcher? I didn't stick around to check.

Wuss.
Kakashi: In my day, we performed battlefield transplant surgery with a kunai and chakra scalpels.
And no anesthetics!

FurikoMaru said:
Not extensive, no. If anything went off it wasn't much of a tag.

Huh.
But then why is everyone so pissed?
So either most of the fault isn't Kuyo's, or she didn't use explosives; we didn't hear an explosion, so odds are it was an Earth jutsu.

We need to talk to Asuma, because Hinata has a match coming up, and Neji is unavailable.

FurikoMaru said:
Kiba: Holy fuck. Uh. She just got here, and... it's fixable, yeah, but it's going to cost a lot. She might lose one of her feet. I do not want to be in this room when she wakes up.

I sincerely hope Konoha practice Universal Health Care.

FurikoMaru said:
I completely agree.

*filed for Hokage-kun's attention*

FurikoMaru said:
Tobirama would like to state for the record that this is not his fault.

LIES!

FurikoMaru said:
I'd still be pissed, but then, I like men.

I'm with you on the pissed part.
Men also have the right to not have their legs blown off.

Hymn of Ragnarok said:
Wanting all your officers to have a certain level of talent to prevent some lucky/crafty jackass from pumping the sap dry of all their secrets? Not at all hard to understand.
"Wait, that lady is a chunin? Are you serious? I could sneak up behind her, club her over the head, stash her away and drain every secret file out of her head before ANBU even declare her missing. I sure as hell don't want her having access to my files, I don't trust her to protect them!"

I can buy it being a function of tradition, or just organizational inertia, but as a deliberate strategy it's fuckstupid.
Any sufficiently motivated village/NGO can get at a particular person if they want to; look at what happened to Yura in canon.
Or just the plethora of missing nin that Villages shed.
It's not as if your opposition will send anything less than a competent specialist after your intel, and chuunin are barely a speed bump against an infiltrator like Kabuto.
The only way they can really secure intel is to go the Root/Hyuuga route of sticking suicide seals on everyone, which has it's own problems.

Oh yes, vote

[X]Asuma
Because Hinata will have a match up, Neji is not available, and we need a fairly dispassionate assessment of what went down before jumping into the fray.

FurikoMaru · Nov 18, 2013

iamnuff said:
Didn't they drop out? and yet still get given a job? probably better paying than a civvy one?

Drop out? You need to have ninja ancestry to start out in the top tier classes at the Academy unless there's something special about you; the only person who 'dropped out' was Sakura, who just dropped down from AP to regular. Sagiso and Sayuri went through the regular classes from beginning to end.

iamnuff said:
also, your office workers don't need to be able to protect your secrets, thats what guards are for. (also, chunin level office workers would never be privy to anything too dangerous or valuable)

Your naïveté is astounding.

Vindictus · Nov 18, 2013

As Furiko just said, only if by 'Drop Out' you mean 'Not join the Elite Murderhobo Squad'. Or, to make an analogy to RL military- They're the rank and file, wheras the named characters are all JROTC grads going into the ROTC. Except the ROTC is on active duty, so it probably shouldnt have that 'R' there.

uju32 · Nov 19, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
Your naïveté is astounding.

Be fair.
Said training has all the utility of those nuclear war Civil Defence drills; security theater, at best.
If said spy is skilled enough to get all the way through the outer defences of Konoha, and can get through it again with or without a prisoner, the combat skills of a relaxed chuunin are not going to help.

FurikoMaru · Nov 19, 2013

uju32 said:
Be fair.
Said training has all the utility of those nuclear war Civil Defence drills; security theater, at best.
If said spy is skilled enough to get all the way through the outer defences of Konoha, and can get through it again with or without a prisoner, the combat skills of a relaxed chuunin are not going to help.

A proper security setup protects against more than just external assault by elite agents.

Especially in the wake of what happened with Naruto and the Scroll. Holy shit is that barn door welded shut now.

Silversun17 · Nov 19, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
A proper security setup protects against more than just external assault by elite agents.

Especially in the wake of what happened with Naruto and the Scroll. Holy shit is that barn door welded shut now.

ya, when the Old Man puts his foot down, it's best not to be under it. and the Hokage was likely pretty fucking pissed over that whole incident.

uju32 · Nov 19, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
A proper security setup protects against more than just external assault by elite agents.
Especially in the wake of what happened with Naruto and the Scroll. Holy shit is that barn door welded shut now.

That's my point.
Sarutobi freaking Hiruzen was disabled by an Academy cadet(in canon, probably not here).
Even here, Ebisu got disabled by a fresh genin working a D-rank genjutsu.
You never see those kinds of attempts coming.
Individual strength does no good in such situations; procedures to minimize exposure are your only hope.

Then again, the village IS ~sixty years old, and is still run along largely feudal lines.
I can see the problem of rationalizing procedures in such an environment.

FurikoMaru · Nov 19, 2013

It's worth noting that the last war they fought (with Lightning, officially concluded with the whole Hyuuga Incident) only ended about a decade ago, and before that there was the Kyuubi. Long-term, making desk-nin go through the chuunin exams is a stupid idea, but in the short term every officer needs to have field experience.

Silversun17 · Nov 19, 2013

okay so this is pretty much the best chance of getting the Leaf the administrator rank system it needs.

Unclouded · Nov 19, 2013

Like has been insinuated. There are people that defect. Internal security needs to be just as good as external in some cases especially when it comes to clan secrets. I agree that office ladies shouldn't be put through the chunin exams but how else are they going to be seen as capable of protecting those secrets from anyone? All it takes is one slip up and bam a genin defector can beat a genin office lady and has secrets.

Not that I'm not in favor of revising the system but it's a bit above our pay grade. When we become clan leader then we'd have the capital to change things or at least bring them to the front and center. As said it's a Military Dictatorship so unless we have the ability to speak to the Hokage on a matter like this it's not going to matter much what we think until we get more ability to do things.

Personally I'd be in favor of a Leaf administrator rank system, but it'd need to be about actual ability to protect secrets as a priority. Therefore focus on dispelling genjutsu and good detection/sensor skills. Fighting secondary as you're not exactly payed to be a front line fighter but more a guard for secrets.

Anyway on the here and now, I'm still sticking with talking to Asuma about figuring out what happened. No need to jump to conclusions especially when our reputation and relationships are on the line.

FurikoMaru · Nov 19, 2013

I love how everyone's talking about wanting to petition the Hokage and no one is talking about becoming Hokage.

uju32 · Nov 19, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
It's worth noting that the last war they fought (with Lightning, officially concluded with the whole Hyuuga Incident) only ended about a decade ago, and before that there was the Kyuubi. Long-term, making desk-nin go through the chuunin exams is a stupid idea, but in the short term every officer needs to have field experience.

Fair enough.

FurikoMaru said:
I love how everyone's talking about wanting to petition the Hokage and no one is talking about becoming Hokage.

Because it's hard work

Power behind the throne is more fun.
Way behind; Jiraiya is the model here

Hymn of Ragnarok · Nov 19, 2013

FurikoMaru said:
I love how everyone's talking about wanting to petition the Hokage and no one is talking about becoming Hokage.

Then how are we going to have time to rob everyone blind?!

Though, at least then we can't be declared missing-nin. And sooner or later what we think is awesome and fun is gonna conflict with the boss.

FurikoMaru · Nov 19, 2013

Tally?

Cosmos Quest (Naruto/Lupin III)

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Clothes That Kill Virgins

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