Don't Worry Be Happy [Worm AU One-Shot]

[Adyen]

So... in your own words, this is about rape. Not the thread. Please start a thread about rape in the rant section then.

(And for what it's worth, it is about free will vs happiness because Amy forced Vicky to be happy with the situation. You can be a slave without being happy, thus it is already better than just being a slave, ergo you just accepted that rape is a net good for people who would have had no choice otherwise.)

 

[solitare]

But Amy is no better than Heartbreaker here. She is forcing Vicky against her will to be her love slave. This is rape. That can't be argued. And at no point can I accept rape as some net good for people.

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There is a big difference between Amy and Heartbreaker. Amy and Vicky are sisters and best friends already. They love each other. Amy is adding eros to the storge and philia Vicky already feels for her. Heartbreaker is just some random creepy guy on the street who you don't know, don't love, and he is in the middle of making himself a giant mindfuck harem where he emotionally tortures his kids.

Besides, Amy was not in her right mind because she was Mastered by Vicky's aura. It was only her previous success with Carol and Mark that provided the precedent for her to do anything to Vicky. If she hadn't done anything to Carol and Mark, then she would never have done that to Vicky. Just look at canon.

 

[volantredx]

There is a big difference between Amy and Heartbreaker. Amy and Vicky are sisters and best friends already. They love each other. Amy is adding eros to the storge and philia Vicky already feels for her.

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So you can't rape someone if they have feelings for you that aren't lust? I'm sorry but no this is rape, flat out. Amy is forcing Vicky to be with her. Vicky didn't fall in love. This is Amy date raping her sister.

Besides, Amy was not in her right mind because she was Mastered by Vicky's aura.

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So? That's not any defense for what she does.

 

[Adyen]

So? That's not any defense for what she does.

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It is for both the Worm-verse (they don't kill every Smurgh-ed victim) and real life (mind altering drugs is an often used defense against manslaughter etc).

But please. If you want to argue against Rape etc, please start another thread about it else you're just going to post another 3 pages about how it is rape and how it cannot be forgiven.

 

[solitare]

So you can't rape someone if they have feelings for you that aren't lust?

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I didn't say that. I said there was a difference between Amy and Heartbreaker.

So? That's not any defense for what she does.

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It's actually a pretty good defense. It really depends on how you treat someone's actions when they are mastered. Using Harry Potter terminology, Vicky gives Amy Amortentia (permanent version) by accident. Amy is desperate for Vicky's love because of her own potion-induced love, so Amy gives Vicky Amortentia.

 

[Sebastian13/15]

Ziz doesn't actually have perfect precog. Her precog is very, very good, but even without the holes it's still not perfect.

Anyway, you can have perfect precog as well as let free will exist. All you need is for using precognition to "choose" which future you'll end up in. Anyone who would go to a different future would get the precog for that one, instead. (If you don't follow it, though, who knows)

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What about PtV- It never has a problem modeling humans, or even entities before Eden put some restrictions on it.
Also, given that it is said that there are a limited number of universes in the Worm-verse, and presumably no new ones. how can pre-cog be choosing which future occurs without taking away free will (and thus forcing it's our future) itself?

Out right raping Vicky. This is the point where Amy goes from an ambiguous person to a bad person. Vicky isn't "better off" being raped by Amy. For one we have no reason in canon to think her and Dean have anything but a positive relationship. But Amy is no better than Heartbreaker here. She is forcing Vicky against her will to be her love slave. This is rape. That can't be argued. And at no point can I accept rape as some net good for people.

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First off we don't know that they will be having sex so it could be just sexual abuse or whatever the closest equivalent would be, also even if they did have sex, it would be rape legally only in-so-far-as Victoria is under the influence of mind alteration, but that would mean that Amy would be raped as well because of Victoria's aura, and given that these changes are mostly permeant, it seems that even sexual abuse is not descriptive of this event. Please stop using the word rape without knowing that it is rape.- but that isn't very important. Love Slave is also an exaggeration.


As for the rest... I mean, I guess? But you have to see, our brains are constantly changed by things outside of our control, so how is Amy changing a brain any different? And if you believe that her changing of Victoria's brain is actually replacing/killing Victoria, then how would you be the same you from 2 days ago (at least in the worm-verse), your brain is distinctly different, after all.
You can't take away free-will if it doesn't exist.

EDIT: wow, a lot happened while I was writing the post, maybe I forgot to refresh the page.
EDIT2:added some stuff to the 'It's not rape' part.

 

[volantredx]

First off we don't know that they will be having sex so it could be just sexual abuse or whatever the closest equivalent would be, also even if they did have sex, it would be rape legally only in-so-far-as Victoria is under the influence of mind alteration, but that would mean that Amy would be raped as well because of Victoria's aura, and given that these changes are mostly permeant, it seems that even sexual abuse is not descriptive of this event. Please stop using the word rape without knowing that it is rape.- but that isn't very important. Love Slave is also an exaggeration.

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Ok no the aura isn't the same for two reasons. One it's involuntary. Vicky didn't know what it did or it's effects. Amy altering Vicky's mind wasn't involuntary, and she knew exactly what it would do. Second Vicky never used the fact her aura effected Amy to get her to do stuff. She wasn't manipulating Amy. Amy is doing exactly that. And it is rape. Because we can assume at some point sex will enter the equation. This isn't a chaste relationship. So yeah I'd count it as rape.

As for the rest... I mean, I guess? But you have to see, our brains are constantly changed by things outside of our control, so how is Amy changing a brain any different? And if you believe that her changing of Victoria's brain is actually replacing/killing Victoria, then how would you be the same you from 2 days ago (at least in the worm-verse), your brain is distinctly different, after all.
You can't take away free-will if it doesn't exist.

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Now you're just being pedantic. The concept of free will is that people are making choices based off their own feelings and thoughts. Having someone change those intentionally and with purpose to manipulate the choices that person can and will make is robbing them of free will.

 

[Ack]

Okay.
I raised the topic because I thought it would make people think. But it's caused circular arguments, some of which are flat-out wrong.

1: "What Amy is doing is flat-out rape"
No. Rape is centred in control, not in lust. At most, she has seduced Vicky in the most direct way possible; Vicky is just as happy as Amy is in the relationship. Also, her anger issues are probably a lot less pronounced, given the reduced emotional stress points in her life, which is a net good for the mooks of the city, and for herself.

2: "Amy is as bad as Heartbreaker"
No. Heartbreaker went and found people who were living happy, healthy, fulfilling lives of their own, and abducted them, forced them into servitude (including committing crimes and having his babies) sheerly because he wanted them to.
Amy was undergoing a bad situation and made the lives of those around her measurably better. She didn't set out to drag anyone into the same situation; she set out to fix what was there.

3: "The Dallons are Amy's puppets"
No. Amy's specific intent is to make people happier. She succeeds in this. They aren't even unnaturally happy; in Carol and Mark's cases, she removes things that were making thm unhappy, and in Vicky, she adds something. She doesn't get up every morning and renew her 'control' on them, except by way of natural, emotional reinforcement.

4: "It's as bad as lobotomisation"
No. It isn't. Lobotomy used to be a way of making people docile, obedient. It destroys a large part of their psyche.
Amy's power successfully does what lobotomy tries and fails to do; that is, effects a pinpoint change that atill leaves the personality intact.
Carol, Mark and Vicky can still have lives apart from Amy. They can go out, fight crime, meet with friends, laugh, read a good book, have fun. Enjoy life. Be happy. Their lives are demonstrably better.

And, as an added bonus, when/if Mark is brain-damaged by Leviathan (which is far closer to actual lobotomy than what Amy does) hey, she's willing and able to fix him! Remember all the anguish that happened in canon over this? Done with.


Now, I'm not saying that what Amy does in this story is right. It's forced on them, and creepy as hell. But the arguments that people keep bringing up to show that it's wrong are themslves false and overblown.

After all, Amy is living in a house with a bigot, an emotional cripple and someone who has unwittingly forced Amy to desire her. What the hell else is she supposed to do? Reasoned arguments were never going to work. Should she let them keep making her unhappy? We all saw where that went.

 

[volantredx]

At most, she has seduced Vicky in the most direct way possible;

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No she didn't. She altered a fundamental part of Vicky's identity. Her orientation, and then made her feel something she hadn't and wouldn't have felt before. That's not seduction. It''s rape. It is. I'm sorry but there is no other way to put that. Amy is forcing herself on Vicky and Vicky has no way to prevent that from happening.

After all, Amy is living in a house with a bigot, an emotional cripple and someone who has unwittingly forced Amy to desire her. What the hell else is she supposed to do? Reasoned arguments were never going to work. Should she let them keep making her unhappy? We all saw where that went.

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I'd argue that forcing people to feel things against their will for your own gain is horrible. She stripped them of one of the most basic rights of a human, to have freedom of thought, without their input. That's horrible. It's immoral beyond all measure. Are they happier? Yes, but that's not the point. Their happiness is a lie. It's been forced on them. Freedom of thought is far more important than happiness. Let's go back to Vicky, because that is the point where Amy goes from ambiguously moral to out right criminal. Vicky didn't want to be in love with Amy. She liked boys. She was straight and likely saw incest as creepy and twisted. Amy forced her into liking girls, forced her into like her sister. Amy stole away Vicky's life and future for her own personal gain.

So to your question: Should Amy have let them just make her unhappy? If the only other option is strip them of their freedom of thought and force change on them, then yes she should have let them make her unhappy.

 

[Sebastian13/15]

Ok no the aura isn't the same for two reasons. One it's involuntary. Vicky didn't know what it did or it's effects. Amy altering Vicky's mind wasn't involuntary, and she knew exactly what it would do. Second Vicky never used the fact her aura effected Amy to get her to do stuff. She wasn't manipulating Amy. Amy is doing exactly that. And it is rape. Because we can assume at some point sex will enter the equation. This isn't a chaste relationship. So yeah I'd count it as rape.

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Just because Victoria didn't intend for Amy to be forced to lover her doesn't mean that it isn't taking away her "free will" in the same way that Amy would be taking away Victoria's. A comparison would be to say that Amy gets Victoria drunk, while Victoria just so happens to find Amy while she is drunk. And that is if you can compare mental manipulation to alcohol's judgment damages.

Now you're just being pedantic. The concept of free will is that people are making choices based off their own feelings and thoughts. Having someone change those intentionally and with purpose to manipulate the choices that person can and will make is robbing them of free will.

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One of my points is that our feelings and thoughts are built of our experiences and substances affecting our brain. So is giving your girl/boyfriend chocolates (which release the same chemicals as love does) manipulating them and amoral?

EDIT: Is it possible to add quotes in an edit, and if so, how?

 

[volantredx]

Just because Victoria didn't intend for Amy to be forced to lover her doesn't mean that it isn't taking away her "free will" in the same way that Amy would be taking away Victoria's. A comparison would be to say that Amy gets Victoria drunk, while Victoria just so happens to find Amy while she is drunk. And that is if you can compare mental manipulation to alcohol's judgment damages.

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Except the intention is the important part. Had Vicky know what she did to Amy she would have been devastated. She would have tried anything to fix it. Amy intended to make Vicky fall in love with her. That's the important part.

One of my points is that our feelings and thoughts are built of our experiences and substances affecting our brain. So is giving your girl/boyfriend chocolates (which release the same chemicals as love does) manipulating them and amoral?

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No but slipping them drugs is.

 

[pepperjack]

Spoiler: Let's have some puppies

 

[Sebastian13/15]

No but slipping them drugs is.

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Care to explain the difference? After all, as I said, chocolate releases pleasure chemicals.

EDIT: Dawwwww... those are adorable!

 

[Navrin]

What about PtV- It never has a problem modeling humans, or even entities before Eden put some restrictions on it.
Also, given that it is said that there are a limited number of universes in the Worm-verse, and presumably no new ones. how can pre-cog be choosing which future occurs without taking away free will (and thus forcing it's our future) itself?

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The last bit is NOT known. The entities have access to a fixed number of realities, but this does not in any way mean that there aren't more being created every planck second. The reason might be that all of those newly created realities also has entities as the reality they "split" from did, too, and they're outside the bounds of what they can reasonably reach. That, or maybe they're really, REALLY stupid and didn't figure it out for whatever reason, or realities that "close" together are way too energy-intensive to use, or any number of other reasons.

Still, there not being free will is definitely possible (either as a base standard or through the usage of shards) in which case nobody has any agency whatsoever and nobody can be blamed, or praised, for anything they did because they never chose to do it.

 

[volantredx]

Care to explain the difference? After all, as I said, chocolate releases pleasure chemicals.

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Because you're giving them chocolate knowingly and they know you are giving it to them. Amy isn't telling them or asking them if she can do what she does she just does it. I mean if she went up to Vicky and ask "Hey can I turn you into a lesbian and also have you become sexually attracted to me?" What do you think Vicky's response would be? I don't see it being positive. Thus the change is unwanted and forced. That's the issue. Amy isn't giving them a choice. She isn't being honest with them. She's forcing her will on them. How do you not see the horror in that?

 

[Navrin]

Better option for Amy: Run away from her kidnappers who are making her miserable and join the Wards or any other group that would have her and she could be comfortable with. She had a VERY wide range of choices, including trying to convince them to let her help them and explain how awesome what she can do is. For Mark, for example, what she would be doing to him would be what his drugs dream they could do and then maintain it indefinitely. Convincing him to go through with it would probably have been relatively easy. The odds of Carol going through with it would be low, but actually talking about it and why may well lead to things improving or at least provide better evidence that Amy shouldn't be living with Carol. Or maybe even that Amy should just give up on Carol ever caring about her and invest herself emotionally in other people while still living there.

Also, I REALLY don't see how what she did to Victoria could be called "seduction". The sane response to knowing somebody is going to try and "seduce" you like that is to run screaming, shoot them until they're DEAD, or otherwise stop them from imposing their will upon you.


It's creepy, it's horrible, and it's wrong... but yes, it is still less bad, overall, than canon was.

 

[volantredx]

Also, I REALLY don't see how what she did to Victoria could be called "seduction". The sane response to knowing somebody is going to try and "seduce" you like that is to run screaming, shoot them until they're DEAD, or otherwise stop them from imposing their will upon you.

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I mean if that's considered seduction than Heartbreaker is a ladies man. I mean I don't make that comparison lightly. Amy is altering Vicky's mind so that she has feelings and emotions that she literally would never had felt otherwise. How do people see it as different? Because Amy and Vicky knew each other? That's worse. Amy is abusing the hell out of Vicky's love and trust.

 

[Navrin]

The use of superpowers in that way is, I agree, largely equivalent between Amy and Heartbreaker. In Amy's favour is how she would behave AFTER she's mind-raped Victoria, though. After all, Amy does legitimately love Victoria and would at least mostly treat her well. Heartbreaker, on the other hand, does NOT love his victims at all and treats them as expendable and otherwise abuses them.

 

[volantredx]

The use of superpowers in that way is, I agree, largely equivalent between Amy and Heartbreaker. In Amy's favour is how she would behave AFTER she's mind-raped Victoria, though. After all, Amy does legitimately love Victoria and would at least mostly treat her well. Heartbreaker, on the other hand, does NOT love his victims at all and treats them as expendable and otherwise abuses them.

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That's a small point in her favor. She at least reciprocates the sentiment. Not enough to accept that the person she loved didn't feel the same way though.

 

[Navrin]

That's a small point in her favor. She at least reciprocates the sentiment. Not enough to accept that the person she loved didn't feel the same way though.

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I think it's a fairly large point, personally, but it doesn't come even remotely close to making it "okay". A lot less horrible than Heartbreaker, but still horrible.

 

[Ack]

So to your question: Should Amy have let them just make her unhappy? If the only other option is strip them of their freedom of thought and force change on them, then yes she should have let them make her unhappy.

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Yup.

And we can see how well that turns out in canon.

Amy mindrapes her sister anyway, then is stopped from making her happy or from reversing the change, thus making her sister angry at her.

Carol despises Amy for sticking to her principles ("I don't touch brains") and then even more when she reveals that she can heal brains.

Amy goes into such a pit of despair that she listens to Jack Slash, indulges herself with her sister, then pushes herself so hard that she forgets how to put her back together. The one person she loves more than anyone else in the world. She hates herself so much that she has herself committed to the Birdcage, where (as far as she knows) she'll be raped to death in the first hour.

Vicky ends up a grotesque monster in an asylum, doomed to loving her sister, who can never be allowed to visit her.

In fact, the most supportive character of all for Amy? Her supervillain father. The man who gave her up in the first place. He's the one who helps her back to some level of normality. Inside a fucking prison full of psychopaths.

Says a lot when the heroes drop the ball so hard that the family is almost torn apart and the villain is the one to save the girl.

I'm willing to bet that if Canon!VIcky was given the choice in the asylum, she'd pick the fic over reality.

 

[volantredx]

Ok but you're the one creating a false dichotomy. And even ignoring that I never said canon was better but I fail to see this as anything more than a side step. Thing is Amy wasn't torn apart because Vicky reacted poorly to being brain washed. Amy was torn apart because she knew what a violation it was. She saw what she did as the act of a monster. With good reason. In both canon and this fic Amy does some really horrid things. But at least in canon she understood the violation. Hell in canon she at least has the excuse of a near total meltdown. Here she coldly manipulates people.

Edit:
Ultimately yes this is better than canon, but a story where Amy blows her brains out before Levi shows up is a better outcome than canon. So the distinction is meaningless.

 

[Ack]

Ok but you're the one creating a false dichotomy. And even ignoring that I never said canon was better but I fail to see this as anything more than a side step. Thing is Amy wasn't torn apart because Vicky reacted poorly to being brain washed. Amy was torn apart because she knew what a violation it was. She saw what she did as the act of a monster. With good reason. In both canon and this fic Amy does some really horrid things. But at least in canon she understood the violation. Hell in canon she at least has the excuse of a near total meltdown. Here she coldly manipulates people.

Edit:
Ultimately yes this is better than canon, but a story where Amy blows her brains out before Levi shows up is a better outcome than canon. So the distinction is meaningless.

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That, I'll actually agree with, for the most part.

Though she's not 'coldly' manipulating people. She's doing it because she really, truly cares for them, and wants them to be happy. That's the opposite of cold.

Note that she hit the meltdown point because of her family. Directly or indirectly, they caused her to reach the point where she mindscrewed Vicky in canon. In this fic? She reaches it at a much earlier stage, and in a much better headspace.

I can see Amy working as a therapist for people who want quick fixes. "I want to have a better work ethic." "I wish I understood math better." "I don't want to cheat on my wife any more."

You know there's people out there that would go for this.

 

[volantredx]

Though she's not 'coldly' manipulating people. She's doing it because she really, truly cares for them, and wants them to be happy. That's the opposite of cold.

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I mean that she isn't caught up in the heat of the moment.

I can see Amy working as a therapist for people who want quick fixes. "I want to have a better work ethic." "I wish I understood math better." "I don't want to cheat on my wife any more."

You know there's people out there that would go for this.

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The key word there is want. None of her family wanted the change. Mark you can argue is cured of a disease so that one I'll let slide. But Carol? She would never have wanted to be changed on that level. But again I'll agree she is better for it. Then there is Vicky. There is no way what happens here is a positive change or a wanted one. She is forced, not seduced or charmed, forced into having romantic feelings for someone she would never had naturally. That's a violation on a huge scale. Is it better than canon? Yes but dying would have been better. This isn't a good change, it's not making Vicky's life better. There is a reason that the second Amy did this in canon she thought she was a monster, and it's not because Vicky reacted poorly.

 

[Ack]

I mean that she isn't caught up in the heat of the moment.


The key word there is want. None of her family wanted the change. Mark you can argue is cured of a disease so that one I'll let slide. But Carol? She would never have wanted to be changed on that level. But again I'll agree she is better for it. Then there is Vicky. There is no way what happens here is a positive change or a wanted one. She is forced, not seduced or charmed, forced into having romantic feelings for someone she would never had naturally. That's a violation on a huge scale. Is it better than canon? Yes but dying would have been better. This isn't a good change, it's not making Vicky's life better. There is a reason that the second Amy did this in canon she thought she was a monster, and it's not because Vicky reacted poorly.

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Context is all.
Amy has had long-standing feelings for Vicky. Vicky loves her, as a sister. At the point where Amy mindscrews Vicky in canon, she's in a horrible headspace; she's just violated her own rules several times over, she knows she's revealed to Mark that she can indeed affect brains, she knows that all the shit in the world is gonna come down on her from Carol for her supposed 'betrayal', so she's doing the only thing she can think of; she's running away. Before she hurts them any more. That's how badly they've got her twisted up in herself; she thinks nothing of all the emotional trauma that's been inflicted on her all this time, just that if she stays, her presence might hurt them. Vicky hugs her, and her closeness is too much. Of course Amy's fantasised about this; she gives into her needs, her wants, her desires, just once, at an emotionally vulnerable moment. Which is not exactly unique, in the history of mankind.
Such is the mindfuckery that's been done on her that she immediately perceives herself as a monster, for the crime of being human. Of wanting what she can't have. Thus accelerating her downward spiral.
If Vicky had stood still and let Amy reverse it, it would have been better, not much, but some. But then she rejected Amy. Refused to trust her. Acted like Carol.
So basically, mistrust and dislike is what screwed everything over.

 

[volantredx]

Such is the mindfuckery that's been done on her that she immediately perceives herself as a monster, for the crime of being human. Of wanting what she can't have.

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Of violating her sister in the most profound way against Vicky's will.

 

[Navrin]

I wouldn't say Amy was right to call herself a monster, but it was very much a monstrous act and she was correct on that part.

Amy messed up, for understandable reasons, and everything went in one of the worst ways possible because Worm and communication is only a thing when it hurts more people.

 

[DeAnno]

I think the real sticking point here is that Carol and Victoria, and to a lesser extent Mark, had measurably wronged Amy already. You can call this tit-for-tat, vengeance, justice, whatever, but the point is this is a precipitated action, not one out of the blue. When people hurt you, you hurt them back. Amy was nice enough to do it in a very friendly way, because she still loves them even though they hurt her.

 

[Navrin]

I'd say it was Victoria's shard that did it, personally, and that neither Victoria nor Amy were aware of it. As such, that reasoning doesn't really work in her case.

 

[Sebastian13/15]

Because you're giving them chocolate knowingly and they know you are giving it to them. Amy isn't telling them or asking them if she can do what she does she just does it. I mean if she went up to Vicky and ask "Hey can I turn you into a lesbian and also have you become sexually attracted to me?" What do you think Vicky's response would be? I don't see it being positive. Thus the change is unwanted and forced. That's the issue. Amy isn't giving them a choice. She isn't being honest with them. She's forcing her will on them. How do you not see the horror in that?

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But how about all the changes to our brains that don't, and cannot have our consent. What about going to school, that experience certainly changes people, so should we get permission from people first, just to avoid changing them without their consent?

My main point always was that our brains are constantly changing and so Amy's alteration of one is not in any way unique, and anyway, sexuality changes over time, so it is not as fundamental a change to her as you seem to think.

When people hurt you, you hurt them back

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I'm sorry but I can't agree with this, hurting people will, by itself, never be a morally positive action. I believe that people want justice, not because it is moral, but because it gives them an outlet for their emotions.