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Don't Worry Be Happy [Worm AU One-Shot]

I find Volantredx's position here fascinating. Not so much the position itself as the fact that he is the one arguing it. And that he appears to be the only one arguing it, for that matter.

It's interesting.
 
DeAnno said:
I think the real sticking point here is that Carol and Victoria, and to a lesser extent Mark, had measurably wronged Amy already. You can call this tit-for-tat, vengeance, justice, whatever, but the point is this is a precipitated action, not one out of the blue. When people hurt you, you hurt them back. Amy was nice enough to do it in a very friendly way, because she still loves them even though they hurt her.
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That's not a moral argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Nor did Vicky ever try and hurt Amy. It was an accident, and Amy didn't even know that. So as far as Amy knew her feelings were totally natural and she decided to force Vicky to be her lover.

Cyclone said:
I find Volantredx's position here fascinating. Not so much the position itself as the fact that he is the one arguing it. And that he appears to be the only one arguing it, for that matter.


It's interesting.
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In a good way or a bad way?
 
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volantredx said:
That's not a moral argument. Two wrongs don't make a right. Nor did Vicky ever try and hurt Amy. It was an accident, and Amy didn't even know that. So as far as Amy knew her feelings were totally natural and she decided to force Vicky to be her lover.
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So at what point is Amy allowed to act to make herself happy?
 
Ack said:
What if she does it unconsciously, her power just doing it without her realising it?
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That's bad but if it's involuntary it's less bad. The issue isn't simple the brain rewrites, it's the fact she does them knowingly and without thought to if the other person wants it to be done to them. Mark is a good deed since she tells him she can help and he is actually suffering a disease. Carol is a marginal case since her actions are also wrong, but changing her against her will even after she more or less says not to is wrong. What she did to Vicky is inexcusable. Vicky had no issues, no suffering. She was living a normal life and Amy knowingly and intentionally warps her to better fit what Amy wants.
 
volantredx said:
In a good way or a bad way?
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I can't really say that it's either good or bad, just interesting, seeing what you consider unforgivable and inexcusable when contrasted with your stance on other, comparable (but still very different) situations. That's all.
 
Cyclone said:
I can't really say that it's either good or bad, just interesting, seeing what you consider unforgivable and inexcusable when contrasted with your stance on other, comparable (but still very different) situations. That's all.
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Partly because I'm not a Utilitarian moralist. And I find the violation of someone's freedom and sanctity of thought to be one of the worst things someone could do.
 
volantredx said:
Partly because I'm not a Utilitarian moralist. And I find the violation of someone's freedom and sanctity of thought to be one of the worst things someone could do.
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You must have been a real problem in school. People telling you to learn things that changed your view of the world. :p
 
Ack said:
You must have been a real problem in school. People telling you to learn things that changed your view of the world. :p
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That's not the issue. It's the fact that Amy is using her power to make people do things against their wil. Vicky's life isn't better by this change. She is now forced into being her sister's lover. That's horrible.
 
volantredx said:
That's not the issue. It's the fact that Amy is using her power to make people do things against their wil. Vicky's life isn't better by this change. She is now forced into being her sister's lover. That's horrible.
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And when you're in school, you're forced to attend classes whether you want to or not. You're even forced to learn stuff. Horror.

Let's look at this another way.
I will posit that it's at least theoretically possible for Amy to seduce Victoria, using just her normal non-powered talents, given days or weeks or months to work on her. Snuggling up to her, being kissy and cuddly, maybe having drinks together, giving her back rubs, the usual. Maybe using her power to cheat, to tell when she's about to go too far, or to tell what Vicky likes and what she doesn't, but not actually using that power to alter Vicky's perceptions. So in a few months to a year, Vicky actually accepts Amy as a sex partner. Possible, yes?

So Vicky ends up as Amy's lover, actually in love with her, choosing to sleep with her.

But because Amy deliberately set out toward that end, and used every trick and cheat at her disposal to make Vicky interested in her, and didn't just wait for Vicky to 'fall in love' with her in her own time (if she ever was going to), is that still a bad thing?

Vicky, not knowing that Amy has set out to seduce her from the start, has no way of realising what's going to happen. She effectively has no free will in the matter if Amy is reading her reactions and is tailoring her seduction efforts to match. But as Amy is not actively using her powers on her (just passively), is this still in the region of 'being forced into it'?

And if not, how does it differ from Amy simply using her power to get the exact same result in just a few seconds?
 
Ack said:
And if not, how does it differ from Amy simply using her power to get the exact same result in just a few seconds?
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Because Vicky wouldn't have ever fallen for Amy the way you suggest. Vicky was straight. Amy could have played every trick in the book and it would never work.

Edit:
Fuck even ignoring that, you are comparing building a relationship with someone and slipping them a date rape drug.
 
volantredx said:
Because Vicky wouldn't have ever fallen for Amy the way you suggest. Vicky was straight. Amy could have played every trick in the book and it would never work.

Edit:
Fuck even ignoring that, you are comparing building a relationship with someone and slipping them a date rape drug.
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That comparison is apt if and only if Amy wanted to have sex with Vicky just once, and then discard her.

But if Amy intends to build on that, to love her and care for her and make her happy, to actually give her real love, then that's not comparable with giving her a date rape drug.

As I said, yes, it's creepy, but if Vicky's happier than she would ever be in canon ...
 
Ack said:
But if Amy intends to build on that, to love her and care for her and make her happy, to actually give her real love, then that's not comparable with giving her a date rape drug.
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You don't seem to get it. The issue isn't how Amy will treat Vicky. It's the fact that she is forcing Vicky to love her. That's beyond wrong. Amy is forcing Vicky into a relationship that is outright against Vicky's nature. All for her personal benefit. It's not making Vicky's life better. It's stealing her choice and life for Amy's sake.

Ack said:
As I said, yes, it's creepy, but if Vicky's happier than she would ever be in canon ...
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Had Amy stuck a gun in Vicky's mouth and pulled the trigger that would be better than canon. Is that a good thing to do?
 
volantredx said:
You don't seem to get it. The issue isn't how Amy will treat Vicky. It's the fact that she is forcing Vicky to love her. That's beyond wrong. Amy is forcing Vicky into a relationship that is outright against Vicky's nature. All for her personal benefit. It's not making Vicky's life better. It's stealing her choice and life for Amy's sake.
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Yeah, for Amy's sake. For her sanity. Because Vicky, deliberately or not, forced Amy to love her.

But apparently, because she had no idea she was doing it, she gets a free pass.

volantredx said:
Had Amy stuck a gun in Vicky's mouth and pulled the trigger that would be better than canon. Is that a good thing to do?
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Nope, and shooting Vicky is worse than what Amy did in this fic, because in this fic, Vicky is alive and happy.

Now, can we dispense with the straw man arguments? Equating "altering Vicky's mind" with "shooting Vicky in the head" does not win the argument.



Actually, fuck it. We're going in circles, you're not going to agree with my arguments, and I'm not going to agree with yours. I originally posted the story as a little jab at morality issues, to show how doing a bad thing could end up with a good result (a healthy, happy, stable family unit, as opposed to the fractured mess that is the Dallon family in canon).

The variety of viewpoints on the matter has been quite educational (and somewhat entertaining) but I'm no longer entertained by trying to point out what I perceive as flaws in your arguments.

So I'm not going to argue any more. I'm going to put this to bed. You believe your thing, and I'll believe mine.

It's over. Done. Finished. Okay?
 
volantredx said:
Fine. It was a good story for what it's worth, even if I feel differently about the positivity of the ending.
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Since then, I have had an idea for a sort of epilogue.

<><>

Amy came awake, gasping, fighting for breath. Oh god, so glad I woke up.

Her heart was beating rapidly; she took deep, long breaths to calm herself. What a nightmare, she told herself. I hope I never get like that.

And then an arm curled around her, and she was pulled closer to a warm body. "You okay, sweetie?" murmured Vicky's sleepy voice.

Amy froze. "Vicky?"

"Right here, lover. Nightmare?"

"S-something like that." Amy allowed herself to be pulled in close to Vicky, into the warmth of her sister's embrace.

Oh shit. What do I do now?
 
TBH, it doesn't really fit the story, and seems more like something you wrote after being pushed and frustrated. That may be the intent though.
 
It does raise an interesting idea. What if Amy got mastered by someone for a few weeks and made all these changes to her family. Then the effect wore off and she saw how better off they were and she even had the girl of her dreams. What would she do? Change them back even if it means breaking their happiness or does she live with it even if it goes against her principals?
 
Ack, I really loved the story-as-is, and hope that you don't include the 'epilogue', it really doesn't fit the rest of the story.

As a sidenote, I'd really recommend the story "Three Worlds Collide" ( http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ ) -- where three civilizations with vastly different views on the acceptability of suffering come into contact. I really feel that it's practically required reading for arguments of this type.

On my part I'll say two things:
(a) Happiness is a value, but it's not the only value. E.g. tell a person grieving for the loss of his child whether he'd like to be feeling happy instead, and most would probably they'd rather experience the grief rather than an artificial happiness. I'm a *preference* utilitarian, and the Dallons that existed before Amy tampered with their minds would prefer not to be okay with having their minds tampered.
This is however itself a *non-absolute* argument, as that previous preference may have been a result of ignorance or irrational fear, and not actually a consequence of their true values. There are no easy answers here.

(b) Also few people are pure consequentialists. Most people have at least some deontological constraints in them, either in the concept of 'inviolable rights', or in some sort of 'rule utilitarianism' . Amy's actions may have led to greater happiness in this particular instance, but what is the world like where people in general (or a minority of people) can make any other people 'be okay' with anything said privileged minority wants? Because we would rightly despise that world where the action is widespread, we don't endourse the behaviour in individual instances, even if individual instance end up 'for the best'.
 
Ack. This is a very well written with cogent plot.

It's also exceedingly terrifying and Professor X would not aprove. Seriously what happened to you.
 
Hmm, just a few comments, since this is actually kind of an old thread.

Curing Mark is a good thing.
Shifting Carol's opinion and toxic personality are ambiguous actions, more for personal gain to Amy though perhaps there might be some gain in Carol's own future social interactions.
Changing Vicky's sexual orientation and putting it to target Amy are only things that can be considered a gain for Amy, purely selfish reasoning.

"It's fine. You're fine with this." is definitely a very disturbing application of Amy's power, because of the loss of agency.

Mark might be actually fine with curing the disease, and could have been convinced by mundane (or skilled) means.
Carol would have bitched alot, and be angered, but to shift her personality to the better in normal ways would have required lots of years in therapy and personality trainers.
Vicky... Is... Well, gender identity can be malleable, but lots of effort is required. And getting someone to love you is also a great effort, depending on the target's personal standards. Switching familial love to spousal love (and lust) is definitely a lot of work and effort.

"And it's all fine."
And that is the weapon that Amy utilized in this story, to shorten all those possible rejections and denials.

That is supposedly the point of the story, how certain powers might warp certain way of thinking, not to mention how shards might affect their hosts, who have had their own minds warped by their own trigger trauma.

When I read it, I thought it was supposed to be an unabashed horror, to the tune of Handshake, not the whole morality for such mental application of the power.

Is it better than canon?
Well, you don't have the after-effects of Leviathan's attack affecting the overall mood, not to mention Jack Slash influencing Amy's actions...

As a subset AU without interference of various other possible things Murphy and Wildbow might implement, the end result seems to be better than canon.

But aside from all those differences, there only needs to be one Thinker to notice the sudden shift, then the comparison to Heartbreaker might be called to attention.
As a precedent, Canary's case might be something to consider, where unintentional Master power at work can get Canary Bird-caged, what about intentional Master effect? One with ambiguous intent, mostly with selfish interest at heart?

This went on too long, and I am rambling.

tl;dr, this should have been a simple horror story and acknowledged as one.
 
Grosstoad said:
Hmm, just a few comments, since this is actually kind of an old thread.

Curing Mark is a good thing.
Shifting Carol's opinion and toxic personality are ambiguous actions, more for personal gain to Amy though perhaps there might be some gain in Carol's own future social interactions.
Changing Vicky's sexual orientation and putting it to target Amy are only things that can be considered a gain for Amy, purely selfish reasoning.

"It's fine. You're fine with this." is definitely a very disturbing application of Amy's power, because of the loss of agency.

Mark might be actually fine with curing the disease, and could have been convinced by mundane (or skilled) means.
Carol would have bitched alot, and be angered, but to shift her personality to the better in normal ways would have required lots of years in therapy and personality trainers.
Vicky... Is... Well, gender identity can be malleable, but lots of effort is required. And getting someone to love you is also a great effort, depending on the target's personal standards. Switching familial love to spousal love (and lust) is definitely a lot of work and effort.

"And it's all fine."
And that is the weapon that Amy utilized in this story, to shorten all those possible rejections and denials.

That is supposedly the point of the story, how certain powers might warp certain way of thinking, not to mention how shards might affect their hosts, who have had their own minds warped by their own trigger trauma.

When I read it, I thought it was supposed to be an unabashed horror, to the tune of Handshake, not the whole morality for such mental application of the power.

Is it better than canon?
Well, you don't have the after-effects of Leviathan's attack affecting the overall mood, not to mention Jack Slash influencing Amy's actions...

As a subset AU without interference of various other possible things Murphy and Wildbow might implement, the end result seems to be better than canon.

But aside from all those differences, there only needs to be one Thinker to notice the sudden shift, then the comparison to Heartbreaker might be called to attention.
As a precedent, Canary's case might be something to consider, where unintentional Master power at work can get Canary Bird-caged, what about intentional Master effect? One with ambiguous intent, mostly with selfish interest at heart?

This went on too long, and I am rambling.

tl;dr, this should have been a simple horror story and acknowledged as one.
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It was written to show up the contrast between a happy ending, and how it was achieved.
 
Ack said:
It was written to show up the contrast between a happy ending, and how it was achieved.
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Except it's not a happy ending really, at least not for Vicky. She's been altered completely and is now in a relationship that was impossible given her nature. Ignoring the incest angle, you said it was like Amy seduced her, but cutting out the bothersome middle man to get to the same result. That is ignoring the fact that Amy could be Casanova and it wouldn't matter because Vicky would never have seen another girl that way.
 
volantredx said:
Except it's not a happy ending really, at least not for Vicky. She's been altered completely and is now in a relationship that was impossible given her nature. Ignoring the incest angle, you said it was like Amy seduced her, but cutting out the bothersome middle man to get to the same result. That is ignoring the fact that Amy could be Casanova and it wouldn't matter because Vicky would never have seen another girl that way.
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But she's happy. Just ask her :D
 
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