Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Shaper47]

. Lantern method of having the Dream, by chance?

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Ok, so they're approaching the Ashen Wastes, but are not quite there yet. Or at least this one isn't.

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You know how you can use artifacts for Mansus exploration... yeah I'm pretty sure that's what they're doing here.

Also given that it's a level 7 artifact I think it's doing more in that it's protecting them from the Ashen Wastes. So the Eclipse member are going straight to Baldomare's beacon and skipping the Ashen Wastes as an area.

do you really have to be like that all the time?!

Always pushing for the cruelest options... Wolf, Ash-Ghouls, killing them all...

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Hey I push for more then that. I push for friendship, I push for love.

What you see as cruelty isn't cruelty but ruthlessness. Because love can have no hesitation, no half hearted measures, no lines that cannot be crossed in it's name.

that said, stealing the Watchpony's glass... could in theory be an option, but the problem is that I expect Celestia to nearly always be there, guarding it. Which would make this a near-impossible expedition

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There's got to be a time she's not around.

Off purging shapshifters for instance.

Though we could always lure her away with a Luna sighting. Get Luna to hang around in full view at Horseton and raise the moon. Grab the mirror while Celestia off simping.

we didn't exactly plan to kill them you know. And reaching Moth 4 4/4 0/1 is not exactly easy.

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There were only so many ways our rebellion was going to go. Besides we totally could have got that sacrament if we tried. It was only 3 or 4 AP.

There's the Glory.

Always the Glory.

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Which is towards the beacon. The Hunting Grounds are in the opposite direction of Glory.

 

[Venerable Ro]

We need either to find a way to narratively justify Velvet's high lores (extremely hard to do, we just don't have the time to justify that growth. MAYBE if we introduced the lores to the Bureau through the changelings AND made a big show of Velvet studying them? But that only works if we get, and I'm being generous, at least 4 or 5 turns between the "earliest point Velvet can fake being studying the lores" and "Celestia reaches Lantern 4/someone reaches Branding Door and meets with Velvet".

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Well that's what we did the first time around innit? We've kind of already established an instinctive grasp with the Lores, we spent the whole month walking around with a maximal Edge influence and all, so ponies won't be that surprised if we have a knack for this. The critical thing is that these scientists know nothing, they don't know that Lantern is just one of many lores or that there's even such a thing as a Lore. They're lucky that Lantern serves to guide the way through the crossroads or they'd be right proper stuck, the Blank Door will give them some serious conniptions. This ain't going to be a quick road for them unless they get or find help somewhere.

There's the Glory.

Always the Glory.

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Thus the impetus to bypass the Wastes and move on, seeking the Light and disdaining whatever lies in ashen shadows.

 

[Greymere]

ironically, reaching the mansus is a way to end the nightmares... or did Velvet only stop to dream when she got the Knock Realization? I don't remember.

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It was her Knock Realization, yeah.

Does someone know how many bits we should have next turn? wage is 160 bits, rarity's share is probably 50 to 60 bits, I'm not sure how much we were left with this turn.

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Probably around 250 - 270? Since taking the commission automatically fails Rarity's career roll, I assume we'll be getting substantially fewer bits than we normally would.

Hey I push for more then that. I push for friendship, I push for love.

What you see as cruelty isn't cruelty but ruthlessness. Because love can have no hesitation, no half hearted measures, no lines that cannot be crossed in it's name.

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You sound like you'd be a terrifying person to know in real life.

 

[Pittauro]

Bureau + Other Stuff

Wound -> Roll 1 die and take medicine (-30 bits)
Detectives -> Investigate Copper
Constables -> Raid the proto-hive
Commissioner -> Get our hooves dirty

Wound is being treated w/ medicine, mostly because I want Mareinette to spend her AP putting us within arm's reach of our current Moth Sacrament if it doesn't change after healing our scar (which, I doubt it will).

Constables action is fairly obvious, we need to follow up on the proto-hive to do our Official Job. Detectives on investigating Copper, because boy, if Celestia and Eclipse are getting into the Lores, we really need to get the Lores into the Bureau so we can obfuscate when exactly we started learning. And I think the only way that's happening is if the Bureau independently finds Lore stuff. Copper runs a cult that, besides our house, is (presumably) the greatest concentration of recorded Lore knowledge and adepts right now. Plus, with the Ash-Ghouls as an available summon, we probably want to find some way to deal with her before she can start sacrificing ponies to summon Edge 7/Winter 7 murdermonsters. Our personal commissioner action on helping out, even despite our Wound, because 1) the constables failing their first true attack on the changelings would look really bad for us (and they can serve as meatshields for our health bar anyway), and 2) Copper is either Grail 4 or Grail 5, and has a cult full of lower-level adepts. It'll be a bit difficult for mundane detectives to find her in the timeframe we're going to want, so let's just cheat and help out ourselves!

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I disagree with this.

Wound is fine. medicine + roll means even in worst case of failing the redemption of the forge we should recover fairly quickly at least one health.

I think we should deal with Copper and proto-hive personally BEFORE putting the Bureau on it though.

we should probably scry the proto-hive to see if there's anything of worth there, the dangers, and then decide on turn 21 if we want to do a quick expedition before having the bureau attack them in the same turn.

That way we can also plant lore books in there if we want to. Maybe explicitly leave out Lantern books though, just in case we end up having to share them with Eclipse?

We can also use the next two turns to make the Bureau more personally loyal to us (and maybe Selene, if we reveal her to a few more ponies we think we can trust).

Followers

Rarity -> Work focus
Jade -> MoL ritual
DoA -> Knock lesson
Mareinette -> Cherilee social
A Grave on a Hill expedition
Assault Copper to destroy any incriminating evidence that could link us to the cult/pre-laundering Lores
RotT to find a permanent, nonsuspicious ritual site for three circles
Cover our bases (x1)

Rarity on work, to make sure she doesn't burn out from doing too many commissions in a row, even if we could do one next turn (but we would have to focus work T21 anyway, so). Jade on the MoL ritual, so we can clear it out of our backlog and on the off chance it could be helpful for dealing with Daybreaker. DoA on Knock lesson to bring us up to 4/4, so we can start working on her Sacrament and therefore acquiring Frangiclave and our first permanent Name. Mareinette on Cherilee social, to prepare for our Moth Sacrament if it doesn't change (and again, I don't think it will), considering that out of the three people at "Friend", she's the one with both pretty minimal narrative presence already and has the least apparent use case (Filthy Rich might give us a new avenue for more bits, Applejack is an Element of Harmony which... might be important?). Grave on the Hill to go get Baldomare's book. Outsider search to start on opening the Tricuspid.

RotT on finding a ritual site, because next turn will be the last that we will have access to a nonsuspicious location that can support three-circle rituals. It'll probably be an expedition or something, but that's fine tbh. Expeditions have loot, and having somewhere where we can do summonings is important. Plus, Jade won't do rituals in her old house, which is our only option for two-circle rituals, so we really need a new site so that Jade can still do rituals for us. As much as I want to scout BtRC Part 3, proper ritual infrastructure is more important. You know, so that our faction can actually use any shiny, high level artifacts that we might find.

And finally, assaulting Copper to destroy anything that could incriminate us when we get the Bureau involved. This... may also involve killing Copper? She is a Grail 4 or 5 adept, which makes her supernaturally persuasive, so we don't necessarily want her where she can snitch on us being a former coworker. And since what we want from raiding the cult is Lore knowledge, not to put Copper in jail, then that's honestly fine w/ me, tbh. Not listed here, but I think the best team to send would be Biedde (who's likely to end up the leader), Baldomare, and DoA. It'd be a bit pricy, but they would also be very, very good at the thing we're sending them out to do. Baldomare to find the evidence and snitches, DoA for her specialty bonus and ability to bust through locks and wards willynilly, and Biedde for his Mothiness and sheer combat ability, in case of Windigos, Ash-Ghouls, Neighnia, or other threats.

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We're so desperate for bits (so many things to use it on) that if Rarity can afford Commission, I think we HAVE to go with it.

I don't think we need to scry for a 3-circles ritual location. I expect us to get one at the end of Canterlot part 3, so we should just work on that.

I might want to have one of our followers do Mare in the Light summon if they can use the artifacts we study this turn.

...Could we have Mareinette go for someone OTHER than Cheerilee though? I'd rather go Spoiled Milk/Rich...

Velvet

AotL -> Lantern
Reagent -> Forge 3
Mansus -> Ashen Wastes
Social -> Rarity level up
1) Spot reserved for likely Cadance/Shining Armor related Fleeting Opportunity
2) Forge's Redemption
3) Study Lantern 4 + Knock 2 artifacts
4 + 5) DoA Sacrament

Not much to say here. Study the artifacts so our followers can have better virtual Lore levels (and also get us closer to being able to get Lantern Sacrament). Do FR so we can stop being made of glass. Level up Rarity so she can bring in even more bits. And we all know now why doing the DoA's Knock Sacrament ASAP is important. I reserved an AP slot with the assumption that Bird's might give us an option to initiate Cadance and Shining into the Lores, but we'll see. If he doesn't, we can throw that slot at a third try at DoA's Sacrament.

Also, while I have our social as leveling up Rarity here, I would be ameanable to have our social be Cherilee instead, for Moth Sacrament purposes, and have Mareinette go do something else in the Follower Phase.

On a side note, considering our recent expedition haul, I am feeling much more partial to Baldomare's Lantern Sacrament, since it'll apparently give us the ability to understand every language (except Vak, because Vak is dead). And considering the penalties from books being from different Eras, and the fact that high-level books are likely to almost universally require some amount of deciphering... yeah, I want the Sacrament that will probably get rid of those penalties and make leveling up our other Lores much easier.

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this sounds about right. It's annoying we'd be delaying Outsider search again, but we have so many fires to put out...

I think we should try to fit a mare summon or two though. That way next turn we have extra followers which means extra actions to put on outsider search...

I was for Baldomare's Lantern sacrament simply because it's easier for us to get. We don't currently have a prison to put ponies in, or a prisoner. We'd need another action to have one built in Jade's former house...

Okay, just woke up and saw the bad news. Moth Sacrament just shot up in the priority list so it is either heal the scar and it changes or just get over the bad feelings and do it if it doesn't.

Introducing the lores to the Bureau also became more important, together with making them more loyal to us. That means we need to finish part 3 fast.

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of course hoping for moth sacrament changing is just a very long shot, but we're most likely going to remove the scar anyway this coming turn so it's mostly irrelevant, it doesn't affect our plans significantly.

I'd rather use the hive to introduce the lores instead of canterlot part 3 at this point, but either works.

Comet Feet	Leader to Expedition: Grave on the Hill	⨂
Rarity	Cover Your Bases (this will make her attempt a Career Roll)	Expedition: Grave on the Hill
Baldomare	Scry / Scout Copper	Expedition: Grave on the Hill

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that's just an IMMENSE waste of money

It's a short and likely simple expeditions. Send Comet alone, worst case he takes a bit longer than 5 days and we have to pay a few more bits. Most obstacles only have us lose time if failed, sometimes health. He can afford both.

Velvet:

Personal Actions (Base 4 + 1)	Social (1 Free)	Mansus (1 Free)
Introduce Cadance to the Lores The Forge's Redemption Personal SH Sacrament Personal SH Sacrament Accompany the Lunar Bureau to the proto-hive of Tall Tale to plant: (A) - Mansus Exploration and (B) - the Forge's Redemption	Fair Trial or Midday Dew	Ruined Church Expedition The Shattered Stairways

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mansus free is only one location, not two.

Axe's Sacrament is probably more urgent right now, considering she expires on turn 21 otherwise if we don't find that key, while between our lvl 5 books and Grave expedition we're fairly safe in being able to extend Baldomare (which is kinda necessary to work on SH Sacrament, her influence reduces the risks immensely)

The thing is, Cherilee as a Heart Confidant (if she is indeed Heart) would have the exact same issues we were having with Fluttershy. Which is to say, Heart and Winter are ultimately defensive, reactive Lores, and most things that we'd be asking our Followers to do just aren't going to involve them. Heart is a bit better off because IotH is a Heart major ritual, but if we're acquiring enough Dread/Fascination/etc. to the point we need a Follower separate from Mareinette to balance it out... I feel like we have bigger problems than the lack of a Heart Confidant?

Also, just to point out, Jade does have some Heart, so it's not like it's entirely lacking from our faction either.

Now, if Cherilee turns out to be Secret Histories major... we're keeping her. Holy shit would a SH Confidant be useful.

But anyway, I also picked Cherilee because she was the one people seemed most likely to go for. Quite a few players are attached to the idea of using Flilthy to get more bits and/or trying to loop the rest of the Elements into our circle, which by process of elimination leaves... well. Cherilee.

I mean I suppose there is the option of socialling up Mayor Mare or finding a new contact entirely. Or, I suppose we might be able to social Spoiled Rich, as some have suggested. She's not on our contact list right now, but Velvet is presumably aware she exists, so it shouldn't be too meta-y to write in a social action with her? ...I don't know if Mareinette can initiate a contact though (@OurLadyOfWires?), so if we went after Spoiled, we might have to start the contact with our free action and then Mareinette can take it from there.

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I see no reason why Mareinette can't go for Spoiled.

Why would an SH major confidant be particularly valuable?

as for Heart (and SH), we have lvl 3 artifacts for both, so at least in terms of rituals we're mostly set for those.

Mareinette has the ability to act in our stead in social activities, and can also improvise according to her own best judgement and what she believes we're trying to do. We're scheduled to meet with her anyway to renew her bindings, there's a decent chance she'll be pretty happy with us and inclined to make good choices as it were. Therefore, "I need a pony suitable for this Sacrament of mine, someone otherwise useless and who will not cause problems" will be a good direction for her and will make for a good project.

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Exactly.

Mareinette can probably go from zero to confidant in two, maybe three actions at most really.

You know how you can use artifacts for Mansus exploration... yeah I'm pretty sure that's what they're doing here.

Also given that it's a level 7 artifact I think it's doing more in that it's protecting them from the Ashen Wastes. So the Eclipse member are going straight to Baldomare's beacon and skipping the Ashen Wastes as an area.

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oh, right. They're definitely using lantern 6 artifact for the rolls.

but not all challenges require lantern.

Let me check...

Artifacts are ONLY used for "knowledge" checks (the one that give +10 per level). so to those rolls they get +60.

Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience Crossover - Mature - Users' Choice!

So, I got bored again and decided to analyze just how hard it would be for our potential rival to scale the Mansus, or anybody else for that matter. You know, an actual hard numbers overview. And… wow. No wonder Windy is the only guy who has made it to be Branded. Look at this...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

in the previous thread we had a nice post from Ericwinter collecting all mansus rolls.

...surprisingly enough, KNOWLEDGE Lantern was ONLY used in one of the rolls to find Axe, a couple rolls in the Red Church, and... that's it until at least our meeting with Biedde.

...uh. @OurLadyOfWires is this representative of just how useful the Mirror will be to Eclipse, or can we assume they'll be able to use Lantern for some rolls we had to use other lores on? Can they use the artifact for APPLICATION bonuses? In that case it would also help in understanding the Blank and Branding Doors.


of course maybe Lantern is used to move in the Ashen Wastes too now, I have no idea.

Hey I push for more then that. I push for friendship, I push for love.

What you see as cruelty isn't cruelty but ruthlessness. Because love can have no hesitation, no half hearted measures, no lines that cannot be crossed in it's name.

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you'd have Velvet be so ruthless as to be cruel, more often than not.

There's got to be a time she's not around.

Off purging shapshifters for instance.

Though we could always lure her away with a Luna sighting. Get Luna to hang around in full view at Horseton and raise the moon. Grab the mirror while Celestia off simping.

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Too risky I think. I'm not even sure if Selene would agree

There were only so many ways our rebellion was going to go. Besides we totally could have got that sacrament if we tried. It was only 3 or 4 AP.

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and for most of the quest we didn't HAVE 3 or 4 spare APs to use.

 

[Greymere]

I don't think we need to scry for a 3-circles ritual location. I expect us to get one at the end of Canterlot part 3, so we should just work on that.

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You said that about Part 2 as well, and look! No new ritual site. I'm not willing to risk a) not being able to summon things and b) having Jade not be able to do basically any rituals based on baseless speculation on what might be behind the door.

Why would an SH major confidant be particularly valuable?

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SH is the Lore that applies to finding new expedition sites.

 

[Nevermort]

I think if we tell Bureau about Manehatten Cult then it would be better if Velvet involves herself with investigation directly via her Commissioner action. It would mean that she can't go on Changeling expedition or we are forced to delay it, but it would allow her to be present in Manehatten to direct investigation any way she wishes, and it basically would be spy on Copper action done on Bureau dime.

 

[Venerable Ro]

That way we can also plant lore books in there if we want to. Maybe explicitly leave out Lantern books though, just in case we end up having to share them with Eclipse?

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I'd like to draw attention to an old passage from the beginning of the quest.

There are nine Lores that you know of, or at least that your Master is willing to tell you about, and you can't help but think of how slightly frustrating seeking them is. Mostly because they are not obvious, even on hindsight, not being the sort of realization that you can easily reach even if you do a good deal of studying by yourself. And yet they have some sort of logic to them, an internal and consistent logic. Like a whole new set of rules that you have to slowly piece together.

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There was also that throwaway line from a certain canon omake.

Well… there's a lot of factors. But the biggest thing is that I honestly didn't expect her to learn so quickly, for starters. The Lores, that is, I didn't expect her to be soo... all over the place. In fact, she wasn't meant to. You see, there is an expedition site that's both easy and nearby, and it would reward her with a relatively good artifact pretty early in her story. It was a level four or five trinket, I believe.

High level artifact in an accessible place? Sounds like the Forgotten Mithraeum strategy for an early boon with a Winter cult.

Something like that. But the thing is, she was supposed to… do at least one expedition, and she would then gain a good artifact that would serve as a crutch. That would make it so she wouldn't have to learn so much by herself, and that would also motivate her to go on more expeditions.

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Eclipse has such a powerful Lantern artifact that it's eclipsing their own potential understanding of Lantern, while also blinding them to other lores as it artificially solves problems. This will be great for them right up until they hit a problem that Lantern doesn't apply to, then they'll be very stuck until they can get out of their self-imposed rut. There's also the very real danger that fascination will pose to a monofocused Lantern society that spends all of its time staring at the Watchman's Glass without understanding the hazards thereof.

 

[DelightedOne]

Small reminder we only need Mareinette to make a pony a Close Friend for the Moth Sacrament, the Leash takes care of the rest. In case anyone forgot.

Send Comet alone, worst case he takes a bit longer than 5 days and we have to pay a few more bits.

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Selene is actually a better option, more lores, more health, her general bonus.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Small reminder we only need Mareinette to make a pony a Close Friend for the Moth Sacrament, the Leash takes care of the rest. In case anyone forgot.

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Well that's a fast-track rendition of Mary Jane's Last Dance now innit?

"Mareinette, I wish to inspire a sad blues song, find me a musician."

 

[Shaper47]

You sound like you'd be a terrifying person to know in real life.

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Nah I'm a real softy I just roleplay well for fiction.

Love is very terrifying though.

you'd have Velvet be so ruthless as to be cruel, more often than not.

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Maybe, shrugs shoulder's, but that's love for you.

A force that destroys the obstacles in its way, that clings to others so hard it hurts, that burns in a fire that blinds as much as it illuminates.

Still ruthlessness is mercy too. It's standing together with friends (I miss our circle cuddle times). It's trust in working together for a grand purpose. It's strength, as only from strength can come mercy for that is the domain of the strong.

Sometimes it just doesn't matter how kind you are, how just your actions, your morality.

Sometimes, you just need to be completely heartless and amoral and be willing to go as far as you need to get done whatever you think needs to get done.

Because love is worth it.

There's also the very real danger that fascination will pose to a monofocused Lantern society that spends all of its time staring at the Watchman's Glass

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True, they might by avoiding our little mothers boy but the cure might be worse.

 

[Greymere]

Okay, so, DO made a good point regarding that we want the Bureau to find the Lores in a positive to at worst neutral light, which means that linking their discovery to either the changelings or a muderhappy cult wouldn't necessarily be a good idea, making our next best bet setting up BtRC to be found by our agents. So w/ that in mind...

Bureau + Other Stuff

Wound -> Roll 1 die and take medicine (-30 bits)
Detectives -> Investigate foreign threats/changelings
Constables -> Raid the proto-hive
Commissioner -> Get our hooves dirty

Changes detectives to foreign threats or changelings, depending on what exactly next turn looks like. Foreign threats can get us more expedition sites, and possibly a heads-up on the whole Sombra/Crystal Empire thing that will happen at some point. Changelings is our job, but we might want to hold off on continuing from the investigative side until the constables finish raiding the hive and presumably interrogating whoever is found there.

Followers

Rarity -> Work focus
Jade -> MoL ritual
DoA -> Knock lesson
Search for a permanent, nonsuspicious ritual site for three circles
A Grave on a Hill expedition
Assault Copper with the following priorities: 1) destroy/silence evidence and witnesses against us, 2) coerce Neighnia's bindings off of Copper, 3) kill Copper
RotT to scout BtRC Part 3
Outsider search*
Cover our bases (x1)

*this technically should have also been in the previous outline, but I miscounted the follower AP

Removes Mareinette-specific action. Switching the RotT and ritual site search actions so that RotT is scouting BtRC Part 3 and the site search is done normally, since logically it doesn't make a ton of sense that a normal scouting action would necessarily work on BtRC Part 3 considering it's all behind a heavily warded door, which is probably the first obstacle. Conditions for assaulting Copper changed a bit, prioritizing getting rid of evidence, then acquiring Neighnia, then finally killing Copper. Biedde/Baldomare/DoA team would still be optimal I think.

Velvet

AotL -> Lantern
Reagent -> Forge 3
Mansus -> Ashen Wastes
Social -> Spoiled Rich
1) Spot reserved for likely Cadance/Shining Armor related Fleeting Opportunity
2) Forge's Redemption
3) Study Lantern 4 + Knock 2 artifacts
4 + 5) DoA Sacrament

Mostly the same, just switched out the Rarity level-up for a Spoiled Rich social to start working on her for the Moth Sacrament, since Mareinette will be busy.

 

[Shaper47]

Spoiled Rich social to start working on her

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Isn't Spoiled Rich a guy?

Do you mean Cherilee?

 

[Greymere]

Isn't Spoiled Rich a guy?

Do you mean Cherilee?

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No. Spoiled Rich is Filthy Rich's wife.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Isn't Spoiled Rich a guy?

Do you mean Cherilee?

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Spoiled Rich is Filthy Rich's wife, and she's the elemental personification of that Karen who shows up at a Starbucks 30 minutes before it opens, bangs on the door, and then tells whoever's dumb enough to let her in that she's going to complain to the town council about how they were so rude to her.

 

[Shaper47]

No. Spoiled Rich is Filthy Rich's wife.

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Ah, ok.

Wouldn't that possibly effect our relationship with Filthy Rich? Doing his wife like that before dumping her.

Also wouldn't it be quicker to do Cherilee?

 

[Nevermort]

Okay, so, DO made a good point regarding that we want the Bureau to find the Lores in a positive to at worst neutral light, which means that linking their discovery to either the changelings or a muderhappy cult wouldn't necessarily be a good idea, making our next best bet setting up BtRC to be found by our agents. So w/ that in mind...

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Eclipse already discovered lores so they would not be automatically associated with cultists.

Edit: also did you account for Luna's Winter lesson?

 

[Greymere]

Eclipse already discovered lores so they would not be associated entirely with cultists.

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Unless Eclipse is going to share that information anytime soon, that doesn't really matter when we need that information to disseminate through the Bureau, not Eclipse. Plus, they haven't really... discovered the Lores yet? They've entered the Mansus, yes, but that's not quite the same thing as realizing there's this entirely separate fundamental magic system that they only really have one noticeable example of (Lantern).

Edit: also did you account for Luna's Winter lesson?

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If by "account" you mean "decided not to commit an action to it", then yes.

 

[Nevermort]

Unless Eclipse is going to share that information anytime soon, that doesn't really matter when we need that information to disseminate through the Bureau, not Eclipse. Plus, they haven't really... discovered the Lores yet? They've entered the Mansus, yes, but that's not quite the same thing as realizing there's this entirely separate fundamental magic system that they only really have one noticeable example of (Lantern).

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Yes. And cultists in Manehatten discovered different way to enter Mansus via Grail Lore.Perhaps Changelings teached it to them, perhaps something else. All we will know that there is now 1 more point of reference. Don't introduce all lores at once. But reporting to Celestia that there is way to reach Mansus by way of heavy drinking is mostly harmless? It does not make Lores evil, at most it makes Grail lore evil (if we conclude that it is Lore used by changelings) and even that is very biased view.

If by "account" you mean "decided not to commit an action to it", then yes.

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We would not be able to teach Luna lvl 4 by turn 21 then (separately from family I mean)

 

[Pittauro]

You said that about Part 2 as well, and look! No new ritual site. I'm not willing to risk a) not being able to summon things and b) having Jade not be able to do basically any rituals based on baseless speculation on what might be behind the door.

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in my defense, it definitely looks like part 3 is the last one, We can do mares summon THIS turn while we still have access to the temporary sites, AND we can still use Jade's House for 2-circles rituals (except for Jade admittedly).

If we're doing part 3 now (turn 20) I think we can manage. We can also put Jade on Memory of Light to keep her busy and use Baldomare or potentially even other followers (with Lantern 4 artifacts) for less important scrying attempts.

Small reminder we only need Mareinette to make a pony a Close Friend for the Moth Sacrament, the Leash takes care of the rest. In case anyone forgot.

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...you know, I was CONVINCED we need a minion for this, but no, a confidant it's enough.

Though we HAVE been told that using a leashed character is particularly cruel, so IDEALLY we'd want to use an actual confidant...

that said yeah, if we just need a "good friend"... Honestly I'm getting around the idea.

Let's send Mareinette to befriend someone, then we could potentially get the Moth Sacrament right on turn 21.

Selene is actually a better option, more lores, more health, her general bonus.

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true, though we might want to have her do other things.

She can train, or she can summon a Mare in the Light.

We need at least one of her actions on training next turn, so she can complete her training with her "diligent" extra action. And I imagine turn 21 we'll likely train her to all-4, I don't think we can afford to wait until Heart 4 to do it with the family.

Still ruthlessness is mercy too

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ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves, yeah. not really on anyone else though.

Spoiler: Ruthlessness

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IsYf_0UGLE&ab_channel=AnniFlamma

Okay, so, DO made a good point regarding that we want the Bureau to find the Lores in a positive to at worst neutral light, which means that linking their discovery to either the changelings or a muderhappy cult wouldn't necessarily be a good idea, making our next best bet setting up BtRC to be found by our agents. So w/ that in mind...

Bureau + Other Stuff

Wound -> Roll 1 die and take medicine (-30 bits)
Detectives -> Investigate foreign threats/changelings
Constables -> Raid the proto-hive
Commissioner -> Get our hooves dirty

Changes detectives to foreign threats or changelings, depending on what exactly next turn looks like. Foreign threats can get us more expedition sites, and possibly a heads-up on the whole Sombra/Crystal Empire thing that will happen at some point. Changelings is our job, but we might want to hold off on continuing from the investigative side until the constables finish raiding the hive and presumably interrogating whoever is found there.

Followers

Rarity -> Work focus
Jade -> MoL ritual
DoA -> Knock lesson
Search for a permanent, nonsuspicious ritual site for three circles
A Grave on a Hill expedition
Assault Copper with the following priorities: 1) destroy/silence evidence and witnesses against us, 2) coerce Neighnia's bindings off of Copper, 3) kill Copper
RotT to scout BtRC Part 3
Outsider search*
Cover our bases (x1)

*this technically should have also been in the previous outline, but I miscounted the follower AP

Removes Mareinette-specific action. Switching the RotT and ritual site search actions so that RotT is scouting BtRC Part 3 and the site search is done normally, since logically it doesn't make a ton of sense that a normal scouting action would necessarily work on BtRC Part 3 considering it's all behind a heavily warded door, which is probably the first obstacle. Conditions for assaulting Copper changed a bit, prioritizing getting rid of evidence, then acquiring Neighnia, then finally killing Copper. Biedde/Baldomare/DoA team would still be optimal I think.

Velvet

AotL -> Lantern
Reagent -> Forge 3
Mansus -> Ashen Wastes
Social -> Spoiled Rich
1) Spot reserved for likely Cadance/Shining Armor related Fleeting Opportunity
2) Forge's Redemption
3) Study Lantern 4 + Knock 2 artifacts
4 + 5) DoA Sacrament

Mostly the same, just switched out the Rarity level-up for a Spoiled Rich social to start working on her for the Moth Sacrament, since Mareinette will be busy.

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I'd still rather we did Proto-hive ourselves first. Couldn't we delay that by one turn? We could probably justify it as the Bureau doing more preparations for it.

other than that, Rarity MIGHT be changed to commission IF she can afford it, we'll see.

Depending on bits availability, how would you feel about either doing part 3 on the same turn we scry it (picking the appropriate Names for the expedition based on the scrying's result) and/or summoning some Mares in the Light?

Grave expedition should be only 25 bits. Forge ritual should be 20 bits, + at most 45 for the reagent. that's 90 bits at most.

Between our wage of 160, Rarity's cut of likely around 50 bits, and whatever was left from last turn, we should have enough for either 2 mare summoning attempts or to send ONE single Name to the expedition (probably not enough, admittedly).

Spoiled Rich is Filthy Rich's wife, and she's the elemental personification of that Karen who shows up at a Starbucks 30 minutes before it opens, bangs on the door, and then tells whoever's dumb enough to let her in that she's going to complain to the town council about how they were so rude to her.

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She was dumb enough to basically push her daughter to insult the little sisters (applebloom, scootaloo and sweetie belle) of basically three national heroines. And in the show they had already saved Equestria MULTIPLE TIMES by then.

She also I think insulted Twilight a couple times, though I might be remembering wrong, and more absurdly she's very offensive to Applejack and her family, which is ridiculous on her part when the apple farm is one of the MAIN commercial partners of her husbands, with whom they have an immensely lucrative contract to sell their exclusive zap apple jam that can't be found anywhere else in the world.

Filthy Rich makes a clear point of always being polite and courteous to the Apple Family. His wife is so stupid she doesn't realize how important they are to his business, and also that Filthy Rich is a genuinely good/nice pony who actually LIKES the Apples.

We're talking a partnership going back more than 10 years, they were already doing business in a flashback a fair few years in the past.

Ah, ok.

Wouldn't that possibly effect our relationship with Filthy Rich? Doing his wife like that before dumping her.

Also wouldn't it be quicker to do Cherilee?

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They have a fairly struggling marriage. Spoiled Rich (maiden name, Spoiled Milk) basically takes advantage of the wealth and reputation of her husband for the most part, and kind of pushed her daughter to be her worst self.

That said... what could she do? She'd go and tell her husband that Velvet showed her eldritch stuff and to do something about it, but Velvet is the Lunar Bureau Commissioner and has the implicit trust of TWO Alicorns and leads the not-secret-police.

Filthy either wouldn't believe her (the most likely options, seeing as this Karen is quite the liar with a history of lying and being generally unpleasant and he knows it) or would just be unable to do anything about it.

as for quicker... maybe? Honestly if we send Mareinette I could see her going acquaintance to good friend in a single action. Same with Velvet, potentially, especially if we use an AotL for it.

That's all we need.

If by "account" you mean "decided not to commit an action to it", then yes.

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oh, so you're keeping BOTH Selene's actions for not-training?

Well, she still has two things to train I think, Winter and general bonus.

@OurLadyOfWires question, if we reach turn 21 with Luna still having a single training action to do ((be it winter or general), could we have her do something like

1)something
2)something
diligent: the last training
Velvet: all 4 and general 30

in the same turn, or would the velvet lesson have to wait until the turn after?

 

[Greymere]

Yes. And cultists in Manehatten discovered different way to enter Mansus via Grail Lore.Perhaps Changelings teached it to them, perhaps something else. All we will know that there is now 1 more point of reference. Don't introduce all lores at once. But reporting to Celestia that there is way to reach Mansus by way of heavy drinking is mostly harmless? It does not make Lores evil, at most it makes Grail lore evil (if we conclude that it is Lore used by changelings) and even that is very biased view.

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We don't gaf about providing new ways to enter the Mansus. We want the Bureau to be able to use the Lores. If we're having to dripfeed the awareness of their existence one at a time, that's going to take forever, particularly because doing that still doesn't actually get the Bureau past Level 0.

We need actual occult learning materials. And introducing it as a "thing to be studied and used" rather than "a weapon of our enemies" provides a pretty different introduction to the Lores as a system.

We would not be able to teach Luna lvl 4 by turn 21 then (separately from family I mean)

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I'm aware.

I'd still rather we did Proto-hive ourselves first. Couldn't we delay that by one turn? We could probably justify it as the Bureau doing more preparations for it.

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Maybe, but I'm not convinced that it's worth doing so and then also spending 70 bits on it when we have better things to spend those bits on.

Depending on bits availability, how would you feel about either doing part 3 on the same turn we scry it (picking the appropriate Names for the expedition based on the scrying's result) and/or summoning some Mares in the Light?

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You do remember that part 3 is a long expedition, right? As in, if we send multiple Names they're not going to available to do other stuff we need to get done? Like the scouting RotT itself and the Knock lesson?

in the same turn, or would the velvet lesson have to wait until the turn after?

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The effects don't apply until the end of the turn, so I assume the All-4 would have to take place on a separate turn from her last training.

 

[Nevermort]

We don't gaf about providing new ways to enter the Mansus. We want the Bureau to be able to use the Lores. If we're having to dripfeed the awareness of their existence one at a time, that's going to take forever, particularly because doing that still doesn't actually get the Bureau past Level 0.

We need actual occult learning materials. And introducing it as a "thing to be studied and used" rather than "a weapon of our enemies" provides a pretty different introduction to the Lores as a system.

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To a degree a weapon of our enemies is a more pressing initiative to learn Lores than just a thing to be studied. Plus doing it now even this way is better than doing nothing. We don't need to speed run Lores study. We need to keep it at plausible speed without outpacing Eclipse so as to not speed up Celestia own climb. Introduce Grail 0 next turn during Copper investigation. Then Grail 1 during Changeling expedition turn after, and then go on like this.

 

[Greymere]

To a degree a weapon of our enemies is a more pressing initiative to learn Lores than just a thing to be studied. Plus doing it now even this way is better than doing nothing. We don't need to speed run Lores study. We need to keep it at plausible speed without outpacing Eclipse so as to not speed up Celestia own climb. Introduce Grail 0 next turn during Copper investigation. Then Grail 1 during Changeling expedition turn after, and then go on like this.

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I feel like you're missing the whole point of us introducing the Lores to the Bureau. As in, the part where we actually get to use them? The way you're proposing is so slow to the point we're practically never going to actually benefit from it.

If we want the Bureau to actually be able to use the Lores, we're going to have to outpace Eclipse by necessity, hence the whole "giving the Bureau actual learning materials" rather than waiting for the Crown to slooooowly research everything de novo.

 

[Venerable Ro]

Writing this in full view of the rising sun, as is right and proper.

Let's send Mareinette to befriend someone, then we could potentially get the Moth Sacrament right on turn 21.

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Point of order; if we did that would we have any assurance that Mareinette wouldn't just resume her "friendship" with said pony on her own terms? We'd essentially be handing her a ready-made confidante.

I'd still rather we did Proto-hive ourselves first. Couldn't we delay that by one turn? We could probably justify it as the Bureau doing more preparations for it.

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I'd personally rather hit it immediately with our Bureau and use the demonstrated zeal as a way to inspire our own ponies and push for a greater share of operational control. I was already planning on pushing for a social on Middady with the justification of the Candle Dust not doing anything when we needed it to, with our new OOC knowledge getting an edge on him is even more important. We want a subordinate, or an amicable peer, we cannot have a lore-justified superior which is what might happen if Eclipse climbs the Mansus while the Bureau chases bugs.

Competing departments, yes? Sun Pony will favor the group that shows results.

They have a fairly struggling marriage. Spoiled Rich (maiden name, Spoiled Milk) basically takes advantage of the wealth and reputation of her husband for the most part, and kind of pushed her daughter to be her worst self.

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Imagine if we accidentally Filthy's marriage and he just dings over to [Good Friend] just like that.

We need actual occult learning materials. And introducing it as a "thing to be studied and used" rather than "a weapon of our enemies" provides a pretty different introduction to the Lores as a system.

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No worries, we have an entire mechanism ready-made for that. We just need to social the Bureau and extend our influence down through the ranks until we can trust our agents in our archives.

The Secret Library

"It is locked, but not by chain or key. It just so happens that, unless you are invited, you will never find it."

Spoiler: The Secret Library

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[Solace2117]

eh, Ideally I think we should study Lantern 4 (twice if first attempt fails) and Knock 2 artifacts (if first attempt with Lantern succeeds).

With both of them, we can let our followers summon Mares for us, which we can then use either directly, or for more "cover your bases" actions.

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Fair, but a counterpoint is if we get the knock from the book, we can have her create more wrong keys next turn or cast an Influence on Velvet if we are doing Axe's sacrament that turn.

 

[Nevermort]

I feel like you're missing the whole point of us introducing the Lores to the Bureau. As in, the part where we actually get to use them? The way you're proposing is so slow to the point we're practically never going to actually benefit from it.

If we want the Bureau to actually be able to use the Lores, we're going to have to outpace Eclipse by necessity, hence the whole "giving the Bureau actual learning materials" rather than waiting for the Crown to slooooowly research everything de novo.

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There are other reasons to introduce Lores to Bureau. Like spending Bureau actions on finding Windy and investigating Copper or any other activities.
Given that we can put Velvet on it via Commissioner action it is no different than getting additional Velvet action. And given that ponies in fact need time to learn said Lores introducing them bit by bit would not change overall speed much. Does not matter if you throw lvl 3 books on them from the start if they are lvl 0 still. Plus outpacing learning institute dedicated to Lores studies is a bit sus.

 

[Greymere]

There are other reasons to introduce Lores to Bureau. Like spending Bureau actions on finding Windy and investigating Copper or any other activities.
Given that we can put Velvet on it via Commissioner action it is no different than getting additional Velvet action. And given that ponies in fact need time to learn said Lores introducing them bit by bit would not change overall speed much. Does not matter if you throw lvl 3 books on them from the start if they are lvl 0 still. Plus outpacing learning institute dedicated to Lores studies is a bit sus.

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Dude, we can raise a Confidant from 0 to Level 3 in two months just by throwing the contents of our library at them as long as we have the appropriate Secret Library levels. There is a massive difference in time between studying already-existing guides and de novo study. Whereas your suggestion, which seems to be introducing the Lores one at a time and a single level at a time, would take us sixteen months to get up to All-1, if we assume that Eclipse has Lantern covered. At that point, you might as well do literally nothing for all the benefit it'll give us, because if we haven't already claimed Glory at that point we must be doing something wrong. And it doesn't even solve the issue of "we need an excuse to know the Lores before someone in Eclipse gets to the Branding Door". In fact, it makes it worse, because there will be such a massive gap between the institutional knowledge and Velvet's personal knowledge.

Edit: Also, we have no idea IC that Eclipse is even studying the Lores! If the Bureau independently discovers a cache of Lore knowledge and starts learning from it, why would it be suspicious that we outpaced the department who's only Lore resource is a single (if powerful) Lantern artifact?

Edit 2: Or to put it another way, if when someone eventually crosses the Branding Door and the Bureau's institutional knowledge is at Level 4 at that point, Velvet having high Lore levels just makes her a prodigy, not something suspicious. If even our most skilled agents are only at Level 1 at the most while we're running around with a Brand and several Sacraments, that's something to be suspicious of.

 

[Pittauro]

Fair, but a counterpoint is if we get the knock from the book, we can have her create more wrong keys next turn or cast an Influence on Velvet if we are doing Axe's sacrament that turn.

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to be fair we get warned if an offensive ritual is used on us at the beginning of the turn, so we could always get the keys the very turn we need them.

Maybe, but I'm not convinced that it's worth doing so and then also spending 70 bits on it when we have better things to spend those bits on.

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as a general rule literally every expedition has been more than worth the cost in bits.

We got in order (from memory, but it should be everything)

1)Luna
2)Twilight
3)grail reagent 4, knock 2 artifact, the +10 diary to part 2 of canterlot AND part 2 access
4)lantern 4 artifact, moth 5 and knock 5 books, moth 4 reagent, access to part 3 canterlot
5)grave will give us a lvl 6 book for near nothing (presumably around 25 bits)

so I tend to assume proto-hive will give us valuable rewards. bits, canterlot archives artifacts... I suppose we could try to capture a changeling for sacrifices, though that's both distasteful, a bit risky, AND we don't have a prison right now.

...though... @OurLadyOfWires sorry if I already asked, but can we sacrifice a changeling for lantern 4 personal sacrament, or grail 4 personal, if we capture one?

I'm NOT arguing to do that, but I first want to understand if it's even an option at all before wasting time thinking about it.

You do remember that part 3 is a long expedition, right? As in, if we send multiple Names they're not going to available to do other stuff we need to get done? Like the scouting RotT itself and the Knock lesson?

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sure, but seeing what nice treasures were in part 2 (total value of replacement around 720 bits!), I'm assuming part 3 has even better stuff.

AND that damn 3-circles ritual location, because surely there's one beyond that door?! after both part 1 and part 2 we were able to open a passage to the outside, so having one such location there would be really convenient, and it kinda fits with how cult bases worked in the CS game too (they were unlocked after finishing "local" expeditions).

Also it would be fairly weird for there to be a part 4 when part 3 is defended by such a heavy door AND it's already a LONG expedition. It went short-medium-long, game design kinda implies this is where it ends.

Yes, I'm metagaming a bit. but even IC it makes sense that this is the final stretch.

The effects don't apply until the end of the turn, so I assume the All-4 would have to take place on a separate turn from her last training.

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you're probably right, but I'd rather ask to be sure. technically speaking I'm not asking for the bonuses to apply to the same turn they're trained in, just if we can follow it up with Velvet's teaching action in the same turn.

Point of order; if we did that would we have any assurance that Mareinette wouldn't just resume her "friendship" with said pony on her own terms? We'd essentially be handing her a ready-made confidante.

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not really? I mean, she's doing it under our guise.

we don't know if she can still do that when not "bound" to us (I kinda assumed she's using the bindings to sort of trick people in recognizing her as her summoner, so she would lose that ability when breaking the bindings. It's admittedly just my assumption).

Also the sacrament locks that pony to acquaintance in relation to Velvet.

Finally... Mareinette is the GRAIL Name. she can make a confidant for herself in one turn if she's left off the leash, I'm sure. Remember that never-happened-update when she befriended everyone in our and Pride's staff? If she's not holding back she can definitely do that and more.

and in any case she's still going to be bound for at least another 3 turns, and maaaaybe 6. It's a problem for the future, and we have enough in the present to worry about.

There are other reasons to introduce Lores to Bureau. Like spending Bureau actions on finding Windy and investigating Copper or any other activities.
Given that we can put Velvet on it via Commissioner action it is no different than getting additional Velvet action. And given that ponies in fact need time to learn said Lores introducing them bit by bit would not change overall speed much. Does not matter if you throw lvl 3 books on them from the start if they are lvl 0 still. Plus outpacing learning institute dedicated to Lores studies is a bit sus.

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as a reminder, even with full access to an occult library at lvl 3 or 4 not everyone can reach such levels.

Some people simply don't have the talent OR dedication to go beyond lvl 2. When we still had a cult it was mentioned I think that we'd basically get ONE pony at lvl 3 once we reached that level in the library, and that's it.

Though we were also told of Infrastructure bonuses at lvl 3 and beyond.

---

I'm not quite sure what to do to introduce the lores. I'd like to use Canterlot part 3 or proto-hive to introduce them, maybe we remove the Lantern book from it just in case though.

That said, plans can obviously change depending on a few things in the coming turn

1)do we have Cadance FO available, and how does it work? does she give us extra bits, we neeeeeeeeeeeed them!
2)how do we use what bits we have between expeditions and rituals?
3)how quickly will Celestia go up in levels? 1 Lantern level per turn would be disastrous, but it's also fairly unlikely. Not even Velvet could manage that on her own, not even with Baldomare to teach her. I expect something closer to 1 level every two turns, maybe faster for lvl 1 and 2 and slower for lvl 3 and 4.

 

[Greymere]

as a general rule literally every expedition has been more than worth the cost in bits.

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Is it worth taking away from the Beneath the Royal Castle Part 3 budget, which will almost certainly have much more interesting rewards than a half-built changeling hive?

sure, but seeing what nice treasures were in part 2 (total value of replacement around 720 bits!), I'm assuming part 3 has even better stuff.

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Okay, but that doesn't remove the fact that we kind of need at least half of our Names available to do stuff next turn. I'm willing to do BtRC Part 3 on T21 once we have the scry results and can plan our follower phase actions around who will be going, but not constructing a whole plan just to punch a massive hole in it in the middle of the turn.

 

[DelightedOne]

And given that ponies in fact need time to learn said Lores introducing them bit by bit would not change overall speed much. Does not matter if you throw lvl 3 books on them from the start if they are lvl 0 still.

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That is only through independent study, if it is anything like the Cult, which is very likely considering we can give the Bureau access to the Secret Library giving them books and manuscripts is the way they will level up, not by time. The true problem here is that we don't have tine to write manuscripts or read books to raise the levels of the Library.



And now for my Harmony rambling:

When we get 3 Alicorns on our side would Harmony still be suboptimal when the door and the key would be basically in our hands? No need to look for an Outsider, no need to risk killing it and something going wrong, no need to search the Mansus, all those actions could be used to make the World a better place.

That is not even mentioning how easy everything else would be when the leaders of the nation are loyal to us. Bits, manpower, other resources... everything could be ours if we use it to reach Harmony.

When Luna tells Celestia about the Worms after she is saved, about what they did to her, about what they would do to the Wake if they are allowed to run free and Velvet says "I know how to stop them" and mentions Harmony as the way to do it Celestia will most surely sponsor us with as many Artifacts, Bits and actions as we need.

This being Velvet's redemption arc is also a nice bonus. Giving up Glory to atone for her mistakes by reaching for Harmony is a hell of a script.

And that is not even mentioning the access to the Elements when Twilight recovers(the fires of Harmony still burn within her, she will recover) for our current overpowered threats: The Stains and Mareinette.

 

[Nevermort]

Dude, we can raise a Confidant from 0 to Level 3 in two months just by throwing the contents of our library at them as long as we have the appropriate Secret Library levels. There is a massive difference in time between studying already-existing guides and de novo study. Whereas your suggestion, which seems to be introducing the Lores one at a time and a single level at a time, would take us sixteen months to get up to All-1, if we assume that Eclipse has Lantern covered. At that point, you might as well do literally nothing for all the benefit it'll give us, because if we haven't already claimed Glory at that point we must be doing something wrong. And it doesn't even solve the issue of "we need an excuse to know the Lores before someone in Eclipse gets to the Branding Door". In fact, it makes it worse, because there will be such a massive gap between the institutional knowledge and Velvet's personal knowledge.

Edit: Also, we have no idea IC that Eclipse is even studying the Lores! If the Bureau independently discovers a cache of Lore knowledge and starts learning from it, why would it be suspicious that we outpaced the department who's only Lore resource is a single (if powerful) Lantern artifact?

Edit 2: Or to put it another way, if when someone eventually crosses the Branding Door and the Bureau's institutional knowledge is at Level 4 at that point, Velvet having high Lore levels just makes her a prodigy, not something suspicious. If even our most skilled agents are only at Level 1 at the most while we're running around with a Brand and several Sacraments, that's something to be suspicious of.

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Did not we considered that Celestia may reach lvl 4 Lantern in four turns in worst case scenario?
This is estimated pace, not this 16 months thing . After it if Celestia issue resolves itself we indroduce the rest of Lores at once. Until then we either don't intoduce Lores at all or introduce them at snail pace as to not speed up Celestia climbing. Note here that I assume that during this initial period we give Celestia regular truthful reports in regard to Bureau progress, instead of say subverting bureau and doing it in secret .