Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[des-pair-2]

So we will spend one action on soothing Equestria. If only to see what it actually does.

 

[Shaper47]

But what about the dangers and consequences that come from making Equestria a worse place? Surely that is not a safe World to live in.

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Better to have a more dangerous world then no world at all.

Consider this as the Melian Dialogue with Athenians being the Wolf and the Melians being ponies. There is no plot armor. You don't win just because you are moral.

Basically "Reflect once and again that it is for your country that you are consulting, that you have not more than one, and that upon this one deliberation depends its prosperity or ruin.".

On one hoof you have the Wolfs who makes the world worse to keep out the Worms. On the other you do nothing about the Worms expect perhaps make things worse by increasing the light.

While resisting and overcoming horrific odds tends to be applauded, that only really happens when it succeeds, whereas the much more common act of resisting horrific odds and being crushed by them is generally brushed aside--for better or worse, people applause winning gambles, but when someone gambles away their fortune, they're called foolish.

This is gambling all of Equestria.

The Wolf's only desire is to die and for that to happen the World needs to die first, you are literally advocating for the destruction of a world to "protect" it.

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That's an exaggeration, like more than half of the Wolf checklist for destruction has been filled already and the Workd is fine.

 

[Solace2117]

Better to have a more dangerous world then no world at all.

Consider this as the Melian Dialogue with Athenians being the Wolf and the Melians being ponies. There is no plot armor. You don't win just because you are moral.

Basically "Reflect once and again that it is for your country that you are consulting, that you have not more than one, and that upon this one deliberation depends its prosperity or ruin.".

On one hoof you have the Wolfs who makes the world worse to keep out the Worms. On the other you do nothing about the Worms expect perhaps make things worse by increasing the light.

While resisting and overcoming horrific tends to be applauded, that only really happens when it succeeds, whereas the much more common act of resisting horrific odds and being crushed by them is generally brushed aside--for better or worse, people applause winning gambles, but when someone gambles away their fortune, they're called foolish.

This is gambling all of Equestria.

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The problem with your argument is that you're acting like any strengthening of Harmony and the Worms just suddenly show up. There's no evidence of that. We're pursuing Glory, if Velvet fails it's likely it doesn't matter either way and the Wolf will always be there. If Harmony making the world a little better was an instant game over, the Worms would have already arrived. There's no reason to go out of our way to make the world worse when we're so close to Glory.

 

[jelloloaf]

That's an exaggeration, like more than half of the Wolf checklist for destruction has been filled already and the Workd is fine.

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Have to disagree with this argument. First of all, we have explicit WoG about the effects of our current Stains, so it's not "fine". The world is surviving, sure, but not as good as it was.

Secondly, I feel like you're misunderstanding the type of danger. If you're standing seven steps from the edge of a cliff, you can't take three steps towards it and conclude that the danger doesn't exist because you haven't fallen off yet.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

You can't convince Shaper guys, his biases are more unbreakable than the Colonel's grip. He even thinks that Velvet does not like the force that both charged us with Selene's safekeeping and gave us the awakening ritual that let us keep her intact and whole.

 

[Limabot]

Equestria is less Worm bait ever since Velvet and her buddies have been wreaking Harmony's plans/attractions.

This type of action makes Equestria attact more Worms.

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Actually, I don't think we've ever gotten direct confirmation that the Worms are any more or less present in Equestria's fringes than when the cult started. Excluding lucky breaks like Nightmare Moon, they seem to be in a state of "always arriving, never arrived," with the main issue being that it's possible for them to arrive at all.

Velvet is aiming for Glory not Harmony.

IC I really get the feeling Velvet really does not like Harmony.

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I don't really read it that way. She tries to be kind when she can, and is deeply loving to those she cares about; how we chose to handle Selene when we first met her seems to be fairly Harmony-based, especially since we've never gotten an actual Lore explanation behind the "ghosts" of Luna's original parents. At most, I would say Velvet is vaguely wary of Harmony, in the sense that she knows too little about it to really know how to handle it.

 

[Shaper47]

AND THE WOLF'S ISNT?!

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The Wolf's focus is to unmake, the Colonel's focus is to enslave. They are not the same.

He even thinks that Velvet does not like the force that both charged us with Selene's safekeeping and gave us the awakening ritual that let us keep her intact and whole

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Was that really Harmony?

Because I doubt Harmony was Luna's first parents or that Jade was secretly Harmony this entire time.

On the other hoof the Dreamlands that we know are connected to Harmony brings about a feeling of deep degust from Velvet.

 

[Venerable Ro]

The Wolf's focus is to unmake, the Colonel's focus is to enslave. They are not the same.

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To be excessively precise, the Colonel's focus is to put down the Rebel. That particular aspect of his is reactionary, and was honestly almost forced on him by circumstance and the fundamental reality of Edge. Loyalty and discipline are not the same thing as enslavement, forcing things to be something else against their will is more of The Forge's bailiwick.

 

[Shaper47]

The problem with your argument is that you're acting like any strengthening of Harmony and the Worms just suddenly show up.

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That's literally how Nightmare Moon happened.

So historically it's a proven danger.

There's no evidence of that.

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You mean aside from Nightmare Moon.

But yeah there's a reason I've suggested investigating the Wards sometime. That would really give us some clearer answers.

We're pursuing Glory, if Velvet fails it's likely it doesn't matter either way and the Wolf will always be there.

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There's no reason to go out of our way to make the world worse when we're so close to Glory.

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If Velvet fails it's Soft Sweeps turn.

Having Soft Sweeps be in a stronger position for saving the world is a good contingency.

 

[Calico J]

[X] Equestria is changing. Evolving. Growing, even. Why not make Ponyville the poster foal of this change?

 

[jelloloaf]

Having Soft Sweeps be in a stronger position for saving the world is a good contingency.

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Having contingencies is fine, but not when they come at the expense of the main, first choice. That's like removing the brakes from your car so you use the weight you saved for more seatbelts to keep you safe when you crash.

 

[Shaper47]

Having contingencies is fine, but not when they come at the expense of the main, first choice. That's like removing the brakes from your car so you use the weight you saved for more seatbelts to keep you safe when you crash.

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I heavily doubt getting two sacraments via the Wolf is at the expense of Velvet aiming for Glory.

Especially given what Baldomare said about the lores and aiming for Glory.

Besides not having any Worm emergency pop up would let Velvet focus on Glory instead of having to deal with the Worms.

 

[Sveta08]

That's literally how Nightmare Moon happened.

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Wow, that's literally not true?
Normally you just post things in highly slanted lights, but this is just false.

However, you still believe that your decision is the correct one. And with that, you walk towards the focusing circle you have in the middle of your room, the one from which your sister just woke you up, and send your mind back into the realm of dreams.

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Luna went chasing and hunting without preparation and precaution. She ran and found Worms, because she was looking for them.

This was not "Harmony was particularly bright" as a problem. This is, "Luna didn't know what she was doing and was too headstrong for her own good"

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

Was that really Harmony?

Because I doubt Harmony was Luna's first parents or that Jade was secretly Harmony this entire time.

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The Blank Plains are empty, so Luna's Parents could not come from the Mansus. Luna's Parents could talk, so they could not have been from the Mansus. There's only one other big metaphysical candidate for providing an afterlife, and that's Harmony.

The Rite of the Mother and the Father is also not a Mansus Ritual, again leaving us with only one other metaphysical heavyweight that the Rite could have been sourced from.

 

[Shaper47]

Wow, that's literally not true?
Normally you just post things in highly slanted lights, but this is just false.

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I think you need to reread here because your wrong.

Luna went chasing and hunting without preparation and precaution. She ran and found Worms, because she was looking for them.

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No, the Worms came to Luna because they were attracted by Harmony's light trick.

Luna having no idea the Worms were a thing is StarSwirls fault.

 

[Solace2117]

That's literally how Nightmare Moon happened.

So historically it's a proven danger

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Which proves my point that it wasn't immediate. The Alicorns have been around for a while and Nightmare Moon was as well and the world hasn't ended. Of course the Worms are a danger, it's the whole point of the quest, but nothing indicates the world is ending next turn if the world gets a little better because of Harmony.

If Velvet fails it's Soft Sweeps turn.

Having Soft Sweeps be in a stronger position for saving the world is a good contingency.

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The Wolf is a Pyrrhic victory we can do at anytime. If Velvet fails Soft Sweeps can win, but the world will be worse for it. You want to argue that the Wolf Sacrament is worth the cost because it makes reaching glory easier, sure I'll listen. I don't agree, but it's a valid argument. Saying we should pursue it to make the world better and that any attempt by Harmony to help immediately makes the world worse is hyperbolic. Obviously we can't just embrace Harmony at all costs, as others are fond of saying, Glory is right there. Going out of our way to make the world worse when we're so close seems pointless.

 

[Sveta08]

I think you need to reread here because your wrong.

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Funny thing, I did.

You follow the trail left by it as you head deeper into the dream realms, the trail of harmed doors and forced hinges, of broken fountains and violated walls.

Until you see it. Not the quarry you have been tracking, but your eyes fall upon the one thing that you have been dreading to find all along. On the very end of a dream-corridor stands an opened door, half torn open by wrongly-shaped claws, pulled clear from its hinged by twisted limbs and terrible strength.

You fly towards it, your heart pounding at the thought that somepony might be in great danger due to your failure, knowing that right now something that you do not even know what is has managed to invade the very dreams of one of your subjects.

You rush towards the door and cross it through the hole left behind by the creature, without a single thought or care for your own safety.

But your exhausted mind is all too tired for you to notice that the door lacks a cutie mark on its front. The sharpness of your attention is too dull, from weeks of hunting, for you to remember that the thing you have been pursuing had been waiting for this moment all along. For you to remember that it had also been hunting you back all along.

It does not cross your mind, as it would have if you had been more alert, that the creature you are pursuing could very well be tireless. That, although mindless and impulse-driven, the creature had shown you all the signs that it is very intimate with the concept of malice.

The "trail" had been a trap, a path of destruction made by design rather than mindless instinct, in order to guide you here, to make you worry. It had been waiting for this moment, for you to make a mistake, for you to return to this long and arduous game of cat-and-mouse with a sense of urgency, with just a little more recklessness.

Not even half of your body is through the hole on the "door" when the splintered opening closes around you like the teeth of a predator.

You let out a soundless scream as it tears into you, fangs that are not fangs piercing your dream-flesh, limbs that are not limbs digging into your very soul.

After that, there is only darkness.

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Cause, I don't know about you. But that... kinda looks like Luna was hunting them, and didn't know what it was.
And that it was hunting her back.

So....
No.

 

[Bakkasama]

Why are we even having this argument? There is no guarantee that preventing or not preventing ponies from having nightmares will make Harmony shine brighter or not. Pushing the dark away is such a generic phrase it could mean anything. Like yeah, it could mean preventing the lights from growing dimmer but we don't even know if they are doing that in the first place. It could just mean stopping ponies from being assholes. It could even mean going around killing monsters at night, even if that sounds unlikely.

 

[Shaper47]

There's only one other big metaphysical candidate for providing an afterlife, and that's Harmony.

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Unknown.

There's also wherever souls went after the first afterlife wasn't being used before Harmony was around.

Though was the Blank Pains ever an afterlife for non ponies? Like, were did/do their soups go?

The Rite of the Mother and the Father is also not a Mansus Ritual, again leaving us with only one other metaphysical heavyweight that the Rite could have been sourced from.

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A ritual created by a Lore adept using their lore to be performed by lore adepts.

I don't know that doesn't really scream Harmony to me. The lores aren't really their thing.

Maybe though, even if it draws upon I doubt direct investment.

but nothing indicates the world is ending next turn if the world gets a little better because of Harmony.

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We know pretty much nothing about the Worm situation other then the fact that Harmony's light is attracting them.

So unless we investigate we don't know.

Maybe just a bit more light sets off a Worm Apocalypse next turn. Maybe it would take a lot more then that.

We however don't know.

Snip

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Mainly that it helps Velvet reach Glory and it helps ensure there's not going to be any Worm event till that happens.

Because I for one am sick of emergency after emergency taking up Velvet's attention.

 

[Rafuki22]

I think you need to reread here because your wrong.

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This is getting tiring, i would ask Wires input but i don't want to bother them with this and i don't know if he would respond.

 

[spiderhellian]

Aren't you both sorta right? Worms were attracted by Harmony, but seized Luna because she got cocky/reckless hunting them? Distal/proximal causes?

Why are we even having this argument? There is no guarantee that preventing or not preventing ponies from having nightmares will make Harmony shine brighter or not. Pushing the dark away is such a generic phrase it could mean anything. Like yeah, it could mean preventing the lights from growing dimmer but we don't even know if they are doing that in the first place. It could just mean stopping ponies from being assholes. It could even mean going around killing monsters at night, even if that sounds unlikely.

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Yeah everyone, we have Follower's Phase is coming up, we should really get a head start on our bickering about that.

1) Take the 2 Velvet AP or go for 3? Which 4 Follower AP do we use, then?
2) Do we want a SH Influence from Baldomare for Knock sacrament/Frangiclave finding possibilities? Even if we don't have a SH Sacrament action?
3) What does Mareinette do? Or Biedde?

 

[Shaper47]

Funny thing, I did.

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And somehow missed the whole Harmony's light calling bits.

The glow of the dream realms might be less than a pinprick for it, being too far away and weak for its light to ever truly reach it and be reflected back so you could see its true shape, although perhaps that is a mercy. But it is still the only light that you can see anywhere, perhaps the only light that exists in all of creation.

Perhaps it is the last light that exists in all of existence. And no matter how small and weak it might be, the fact that it is the only one… makes it a beacon.

"Yes Luna, that's right," it whispers inside your head, a loving mockery of your sister's voice, "your world's light… Its call is so irresistible…"

You realize without knowing how, you understand it in an instant. Every dream, every song, every thought of love and hope, it is all reflected here in the dream realms. Every colt and filly borne into a loving house, every new cutie-marked door that appears and starts emitting its own light, every new corridor and avenue and courtyard in the dream realms.

Everything makes the light stronger. Every single effort from you and your sister just serves to makes Equestria more visible.

As if you are raising a lamb just for it to be slaughtered.

As if you are planting a tree, just for it to be consumed by worms.

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It licks greedily the marrow of your very being as it sees in there the echo of that thing, that music that grows with every light-born thought of mortals, that nascent beacon in the never-ending darkness.

It sees the light of Harmony,

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And as the light grows stronger? Well, it just calls for larger and larger of us of course. Until those like myself arrive, those that can resist your sight without being destroyed, those that can touch you without burning away."

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[Venerable Ro]

Little early for planning yet, we still don't know how the other expedition or the "social" encounter with the Riches went.

 

[Shaper47]

1) Take the 2 Velvet AP or go for 3? Which 4 Follower AP do we use, then?

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I say just go with 2 Velvet AP and just get 1 Velvet AP from Bureau Constables.

I want followers for Outsider and Books.

2) Do we want a SH Influence from Baldomare for Knock sacrament/Frangiclave finding possibilities? Even if we don't have a SH Sacrament action?

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Get the SH influence for the Frangiclave and if we have the SH influence we really really should do our SH Sacrament.

3) What does Mareinette do? Or Biedde?

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For Mareinette I thought the idea was to use her on Spoiled Milk for our Moth Sacrament?

For Biedde...

I was thinking of having him dig a hole but I'm fucking sick of this Edge Sacrament debate.

Let's actually commit for once and stop being indecisive.

Either we get an influence from Biedde and attempt his Sacrament in the same turn as we heal ourselves or we have him dig a hole and go to the Wolf.

 

[spiderhellian]

Let's actually commit for once and stop being indecisive.

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Huh, interesting idea.

For reference, I redid the simulation with rerolling properly implemented (forced to use it) and Biedde rerolling every two dice (as we've seen) and see:

Velvet wins with 0 wounds: 46% (56% with 2 AotL)
Velvet wins with 1 wound: 12% (15% with 2 AotL)
Biedde wins: 42% (29% with 2 AotL)

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

A ritual created by a Lore adept using their lore to be performed by lore adepts.

I don't know that doesn't really scream Harmony to me. The lores aren't really their thing.

Maybe though, even if it draws upon I doubt direct investment.

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A ritual discovered by a Lore Adept, a ritual that didn't use any Lore whatsoever. No circles, no reagents, no tests, none of that. From the same research chain that unlocked investigating Harmony more directly.

And no, I won't go after Biedde's Sacrament this coming turn, I got a Snakemare to rescue instead. Sacrament and befriending all in one, you gotta love it.

 

[Shaper47]

Velvet wins with 0 wounds: 46% (56% with 2 AotL)
Velvet wins with 1 wound: 12% (15% with 2 AotL)
Biedde wins: 42% (29% with 2 AotL)

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Not sure if Velvet has the time for one AotL never mind two.

Though she'd have 2 wounds for the test after healing.

The idea is to do Forge's Redemption first.

 

[spiderhellian]

Not sure if Velvet has the time for one AotL never mind two.

Though she'd have 2 wounds for the test after healing.

The idea is to do Forge's Redemption first.

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1) We have below 50% without any AotL, we really need at least one (and we do get one free). Basically we win by doing well in the first two rounds when we have AotL and can match his reroll, otherwise it's tough.

2) The contest stops if Velvet only has one HP, ie if she has taken two wounds. So we can't ever win with two wounds.

 

[Shaper47]

1) We have below 50% without any AotL, we really need at least one (and we do get one free). Basically we win by doing well in the first two rounds when we have AotL and can match his reroll, otherwise it's tough.

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Hmm, maybe we can bring Selene with Velvet to get rid of evidence and won't have to use an Aotl on Forge.

Biedde wins: 42%

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Sigh, 58% chance of getting the Sacrament.

Though I long for the certainly of the Wolf I long more for the agony of the indecision to end. For the longer it continues the more it cuts and we bleed.

 

[Solace2117]

Honestly the Edge Sacrament is a low priority. Velvet is rarely involved in combat and the only reason it was an issue last turn is because she has two wounds and we made the mistake of attempting the Ruined Church expedition and failed the first check. Doesn't mean we shouldn't get it, just that others like Knock and secret histories are a higher priority.

1) Take the 2 Velvet AP or go for 3? Which 4 Follower AP do we use, then?
2) Do we want a SH Influence from Baldomare for Knock sacrament/Frangiclave finding possibilities? Even if we don't have a SH Sacrament action?
3) What does Mareinette do? Or Biedde?

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1. It all depends on how the rest of the turn plays out. What does the outsider search discover. What fleeting opportunities come up. What expeditions do we want to do. Do we try for multiple sacraments.
2. If we think it'll help with Axe's quest absolutely. It also lets us conditionally progress on the SH sacrament if we finish faster than expected.
4. Leaning towards the changeling hive expedition depending on funds and no other priorities. We can still get a scrap from Mareinette's heart influence, but rather save it for when we are 1 away from level 4 and then retry the Church.