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Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

Temporary threadmark - The many ways to ruin Copper's day New
Not caught up to thread. Won't answer pings now.

This post is specifically about "Priorities" for your Copper assault, since I believe that will be the centerpoint of this planning period.

This is a quick summary of my thoughts, so we can better align our language, and so you can know how I expect your assault team to interpret your orders, as well as how you all can expect your orders to be understood.

When it comes to Copper, you have a mixture of "very little intel", and "a lot of backing to make educated guesses". And that is because you have almost zero knowledge about her cult operations.
However, you DO have knowledge of how she was "taught" to operate a cult (since you were both advisors to the Master for a long time). And you also DID confirm that she has an "institution" of sorts, from your expedition to free Twilight.

After all, when freeing Twilight, you found an out-of-the-way warehouse, kept under constant guard, as well as indications that said place was "one of several" spots being used for shady business.

With that in mind, these are the "main points" that Velvet has in mind when planning this assault.

(This is all Velvet's own assumptions, but I believe it is the best way for us all to align our plans and thougts).

Copper's cult is composed of:
-"The Figurehead". Copper herself. The mare calling all the shots, and the figurative head of the snake. In your previous cult, this was the Master.
-"The Inner Circle". A group of unknown ponies who act as trusted lieutenants. You have no evidence that they exist, but this is an educated guess. This was you, and your companions, in the old cult.
-"The Outer Circle". The regular members. A mass of ponies of unknown size, but that comprise the cult as a whole. If you think of the saying that "a village is not a place, it's its people" then these are the people.
-"Infrastructure". The buildings, fronts, and whatever territory they hold. Manehattan is a city that has crime problems, so it is fair to assume Copper's cult has a presence (and thus "territory") in the city's underworld.
-"Resources". Bits, artifacts, sealed Windigos, and what have you. The stuff that can be stashed, moved, and stolen. And the stuff that can be evacuated during your attack, if you don't focus on getting to it. You assume any evidence they have on you would fall under this category.
-"Neighnia". Needs no introductions.



So, this might sounds like a lot of options, and a lot of moving pieces. And you are right, it IS a lot of stuff.

However, I am bringing this to your attention for two reasons.

First, you can't really destroy an entire cult in a single attack, that takes place in a single night. Even if you focus on one or two of those points, the other points might scatter and flee. It is disingenuous to expect a perfect and absolute victory.
(Or maybe it is. You are sending quite a few Names, after all. What do I know?)

Second, because if you think about it, removing any of those pieces would still cripple any cult. Kill Copper? They are lost. Kill the lieutenants? The cult can't be run. Frighten the flock? There is nopony left to order around. So on.



So, in short, I am presenting you with these "pieces" because this is how I think Velvet would "dissect" this problem.

However, you are not "forced" to use that terminology. And more importantly, you are still free to plan whatever you want. You can give orders to "capture" lieutenants. You can give orders to "frighten" the flock instead of killing them. You can give orders to torch however many cult buildings they find, and damn the fallout.

This is just me trying to explain how Velvet (and myself) thinks about this situation. And how your "priorities" might be interpreted when the assault finally happens.



I'll temporary threadmark this, because I hope it helps. But don't take this as an "order from QM" to use this terminology, or focus on these points.

Good day to us all.
 
I know that when we recover our Grail Rarity will not question the probably horrifying things she could see if we tell her not to, but do we really need to send her?

I will not really object strongly, but i don't think that we need to send her, it would be too dangerous for Rarity.

Edit: Also, is there something stopping us from using the SH 3 Artifact to study better the memory of light? Unless that was discussed alredy.
It gives us +20 on outsider search. Lores stack too so she still adds 3 levels to overall Grail which may be important in any negotiation, plus Edge 3 artifact to take Selene place and as capability to escape.
And ideally it should not be too horrible. I would assume that Bird will try to use our strongest lores where plan allows and with Grail at 9...

On SH book I don't know but I just assumed that if it is allowed to be used both for Jade scrying and Velvet research then it would be. If not then not.
 
I will once more advocate for sending Selene to assault Copper. She makes Moth, Winter, and Knock checks easier, while still providing a nice bit of combat ability. Only other contenders might be Rarity for a bit of Forge that we otherwise completely lack in our party. Also we should definitely send the Heartifact with them, because Neighnia means a lot of Winter being thrown the party's way.
 
With that in mind, these are the "main points" that Velvet has in mind when planning this assault.
@OurLadyOfWires Are you suggesting our attack prioritization should be conceived of as an ordering of these points? Like "First, focus on Copper. Then loot. Then Neighnia. Then lieutenants"? Possibly with some details (scare not kill, loot manuscripts over other stuff)?

will once more advocate for sending Selene to assault Copper. She makes Moth, Winter, and Knock checks easier, while still providing a nice bit of combat ability. Only other contenders might be Rarity for a bit of Forge that we otherwise completely lack in our party.
We can send Comet who's a very solid combatant.
 
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I will once more advocate for sending Selene to assault Copper.
It wouldn't be my first choice, but i wouldn't oppose it if it ends up winning.
Also we should definitely send the Heartifact with them, because Neighnia means a lot of Winter being thrown the party's way.
Hmmm, maybe.
Are you suggesting our attack prioritization should be an ordering of these points?
However, you are not "forced" to use that terminology. And more importantly, you are still free to plan whatever you want.
 
@OurLadyOfWires Are you suggesting our attack prioritization should be conceived of as an ordering of these points? Like "First, focus on Copper. Then loot. Then Neighnia. Then lieutenants"? Possibly with some details (scare not kill, loot manuscripts over other stuff)?


We can send Comet who's a very solid combatant.

But combat is the only thing Comet can do. Selene provides bonuses to so many other things on top of that.

I just realized that she's also our only Winter Pony like Rarity is our only Forge Pony.
 
Are you suggesting our attack prioritization should be an ordering of these points? Like "First, focus on Copper. Then loot. Then Neighnia. Then lieutenants"? Possibly with some details (scare not kill, loot manuscripts over other stuff)?
Yes.

But emphasis in SHOULD, not "must". This is just a way for you to know what i think is important.

Promising to reward your assault team is not needed. Ordering them to "loot first" comes with the risk of Copper fleeing. Single-mindedly hunting Copper risks an as-of-yet unknown lieutenant fleeing with cult artefacts etc.

But again, "should" focus, not "must".

You are all still free to plan whatever you want. And you can bring suggestions that i overlooked (no QM is perfect, and i am definitely not immune to missing something).


But ultimately, the most important thing is: dont expect a perfect victory against an enemy cult in a single assault.

Prioritize what you want to see happening, and see where the chips fall.
 
@OurLadyOfWires if we have "Eliminate Copper" and "Neutralize Neighnia" both on the priority list, but Neighnia is lower priority, would our Name Hit Squad take that into account when going to kill Copper? E.g. if there's an opportunity to coerce Neighnia's bindings off of Copper right before killing her
 
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@OurLadyOfWires Are you suggesting our attack prioritization should be conceived of as an ordering of these points? Like "First, focus on Copper. Then loot. Then Neighnia. Then lieutenants"? Possibly with some details (scare not kill, loot manuscripts over other stuff)?
I think this is as much an offering as well as request.

Offering, as Velvet has ideas how a Cult could be operated, and so for us who are voting and planning, but might not be the most certain, it provides a framework.

Request, as OurLadyOfWires still has to interpret what the assault priorities end up meaning and doing. If we end up voting through a plan with a high priority goal that... It is difficult to determine how, of at all, that could be done, it might put writing it in a lurch. This gives us shared "terminology" so that at the very least we are looking at the same page.
 
Guys... pls... am busy rn... :V

@OurLadyOfWires if we have "Eliminate Copper" and "Neutralize Neighnia" both on the priority list, but Neighnia is lower priority, would our Name Hit Squad take that into account when going to kill Copper? E.g. if there's an opportunity to coerce Neighnia's bindings off of Copper right before killing her?

Edit: Also would any hypothetical evidence that could implicate Velvet fall under "resources" if, e.g. we ordered our Names to steal all of Copper's resources?
Can we give different priorities to each Name? I know that could cause problems, but could we?
Yes to Greymere, no to Rafuki, both for the same reason.

This is still a game that works on crowd-voting. So as Sveta said, I need a way for the discussion to be streamlined and understandable. A compromise between player agency, without so much micromanaging that a consensus would be impossible.

So. Give me a list of priorities. Velvet's priorities. "If the building is on fire, and you can either kill Copper or steal Neighnia, kill Copper." Rinse and repeat, in order of importance.

Different priorities to different Names would involve too many variables you cannot predict. Instead, look at your assault as a single unit, and tell me what should be at the very first paragraph of the report it will give you. Then the second. Then the third.

Ill legit disappear now. Good day to us all.
 
On one hand, killing Copper is a very simple and permanent solution to a problem.

On the other hand, it would be hysterical to rob Copper blind to the point she can't even do anything and is suddenly extremely vulnerable to Bureau action because she's suddenly completely broke. And maybe also kill her anyway, because four Names and an alicorn is a lot of firepower and would be pretty difficult to outrun with Princess "I am stalking you in your dreams" Luna and Baldomare "Specialty Bonus to finding things goes brrr".

...actually, all of her bits being stolen would indirectly cause a lot of problems in the Outer Circle, wouldn't it? Since we've seen that one of the ways Copper keeps her minions' loyalty is through money.

Best to keep it simple though, as funny as it'd be.
 
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Guys... pls... am busy rn... :V
Sorry.
Ill legit disappear now. Good day to us all.
Have a nice day.

Ok, priorities, everyone feel free to comment.

Priority 1: Kill the Figurehead (Copper).

Priority 2: Kill the Inner Circle.

Priority 3: Raid the resources, especially what would link Velvet to the cult and the lores.

Priority 4: Neutralize Neighnia with or without violence.

Priority 5: Kill the Outer Circle

Priority 6: Damage the infraestructure, leaving it open for the Bureu.

Edit: Priority 2 and 3 are interchangeable for me.
 
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Priority 1: Kill the Figurehead (Copper).

Priority 2: Raid the resources, especially what would link Velvet to the cult and the lores.

Priority 3: Kill the Inner Circle.

Priority 4: Neutralize Neighnia with or without violence.

Priority 5: Kill the Outer Circle

Priority 6: Damage the infraestructure.
Neutralizing Neighnia should go above the Inner Circle. Our Bureau detectives can work on dealing with the cult itself once we cut off its head, but Neighnia is juuuust a bit out of their wheelhouse. And also MORE NAMES FOR THE NAME HOTEL!

Edit: Aaaand since you moved things around, I'll just state my priorities here:

1) Kill Copper

2) Steal & destroy any evidence that could compromise us

3) Neutralize Neighnia

4) Loot any other non-evidence resources that they can get their hooves on (leave enough non-Velvet-compromising manuscripts behind for the Bureau to loot later)

I really don't think we need to go as far as hunting down the Inner and Outer Circles. That's what our agents are for.
 
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IMO priorities should be like this:
1. Copper. We want her dealt with, permanently.
2. Neighnia. We want her out of the cult's reach. Preferably in our reach, but we can compromise on that.
3. Resources. Loot/evidence.
4. Inner circle. It is likely they lie low after attack and may slip through the Bureau fingers. But we don't really need to deal with them. They are as likely to go after each other as after Velvet in case they survive. Maybe even more likely, since they will not have a personal reason to hate Velvet.
5. Everything else is left for the Bureau.
 
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Neutralizing Neighnia should go above the Inner Circle.
I understand that, but Copper Inner Circle is likely to know about Copper vendetta with Velvet, and if one of them escapes they could, you know, try to avenge their leader.

Neighnia in comparison could be negotiated when Copper dies.
Not sure about looting if it interferes with the Names collecting Evidence against Velvet, if it doesn't I'm in.
Making sure that the Bureu doesn't find anything about Velvet Cultist activities is more important i think, we can recover Neighnia, recovering trust if they find something about us is more difficult.
 
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I understand that, but Copper Inner Circle is likely to know about Copper vendetta with Velvet, and if one of them escapes they could, you know, try to avenge their leader.
Sure, but like I said: that's what our agents are for, to clean up the rest of the cult once we've dealt with Copper. One of the main reason Copper is getting dealt with via Names to the face is because she knew us personally and is either Grail 4 or Grail 5, making her uncomfortably able to implicate us if we tried to deal with her via the Bureau. The Inner Circle would have, at best, second-hand accounts if Copper even felt like talking about her history with Velvet at all, and without any actual evidence to back things up should be able to be dismissed much more easily. Sometimes people do just get irrationally fixated on a person for some reason that only existed in their own head, after all.
 
My priorities:

1) Kill Copper
2) Neighnea, ideally secured for ourselves, hopefully denied to the cult, failing that at least scouted. This is a NAME! Pretty important!
3) Resources, focused on our manuscripts
4) Inner Circle
5) The rest.

I could see an argument for swapping 2-3. Rest seems pretty clear-cut.

But combat is the only thing Comet can do. Selene provides bonuses to so many other things on top of that.

I just realized that she's also our only Winter Pony like Rarity is our only Forge Pony.
Combat is pretty important when attacking a foe! And in practice, having our "Winter Pony" along is just +15 on the roll. Having Rarity as Forge Pony is just +5 on the roll. It's meaningful, but not super significant.

I think there are ~two options:

1) Comet + the Names attack, Rarity + DoA explore. This gets us Biedde exploring for the Outsider, which ~locks down securing the Outsider.
2) Selene + the Names attack, Comet/Rarity + DoA/Mareinette explore (tbh not sure which is optimal, Rarity is marginally better at search?). This gets us an extra +15 on Knock (current: +80)/Winter (current: +50)/Moth (current:+65) rolls, and a roughly as good combatant as Comet. It puts Luna at slightly more risk, and makes discovering the Outsider go from ~9/10 to ~3/4.

I really want to lock down getting the Outsider discovered this turn. Our main quest is IMPORTANT, and this means we can IMMEDIATELY start considering what we'll need for the next step.
 
Our main quest is IMPORTANT, and this means we can IMMEDIATELY start considering what we'll need for the next step.
We do still need to find the Outsider Juicer, i.e. explore the Malleary. Which, all things considered, I think would be kind of a bad idea to do next turn. So I think finishing up the Outsider Search on T21 if we hit the ~25% chance of failure wouldn't really that much of a setback.
 
We do still need to find the Outsider Juicer, i.e. explore the Malleary. Which, all things considered, I think would be kind of a bad idea to do next turn. So I think finishing up the Outsider Search on T21 if we hit the ~25% chance of failure isn't really that much of a setback.
This is fair. But I'm not confident the next step after finding the Outsider will require both these steps to be complete.

I think there very well could be something we can work on after the Outsider is found (if it's bound, how do we release it? How do we get it to the Mansus to stick in the juicer?) . This uncertainty is part of why I want to find it this turn! So we know sooner, rather than later, what comes next.
 
Also, a tentative plan (plan variant?) primarily based off of @Steady Gaze's plan, now with more Cherilee, adjusted assault details (but keeping the broad strokes), and less stuff on the Grave expedition.

[] Plan Leave No Trace - Cherilee Social & Tweaked Expeditions
-[] [BUREAU] You will assault Copper BEFORE the Bureau picks her trail.
-[] Assault an opponent (Copper Secateur)
--[] Who is going? (WRITE IN which followers will go)
---[] Baldomare
---[] Biedde (as planner)
---[] Daughter of Axes
---[] Mareinette
---[] Selene
--[] What are they taking? (WRITE IN what artifacts, if any, to take)
---[] One wrong key
---[] SH3 artifact
---[] Winter 1 artifact
--[] What is their objective? (WRITE IN what your followers must do, in order of PRIORITY)
---[] Eliminate Copper. (Attempt to do so in a way that minimizes the window of alarm to give more time to complete other goals without the cult being alerted of an ongoing assault.)
---[] Find and neutralize anything that would compromise us. (Steal or destroy evidence that implicates us as part of the Master's cult, or an associate of Copper's, or having knowledge of the Lores before their official rediscovery.)
---[] Neutralize Neighnia somehow. (Get her bindings, desummon her, negotiate with her, steal the painting she's in, or confirm that she gets desummoned when Copper dies.)
---[] Loot Copper's other resources. (As long as it doesn't jeopardize any other objectives. Looting exceptions: destroy and desummon any Windigo Jars; leave enough non-Velvet-compromising manuscripts for the Bureau to find later.)
--[] Anything else? (WRITE IN any other orders or specifications you have)
---[] Leave as little trace as possible. (Leave no evidence of the assault, for example, by employing stealth, eating the bodies, Grailing witnesses actively or passively into believing they saw nothing notable, etc.)
-[] The Grave on the Hill
--[] Who is going? (WRITE IN which followers will go)
---[] Rarity (as planner)
---[] Daughter of Axes
--[] What are they taking? (WRITE IN what artifacts, if any, to take)
---[] SH 3 artifact
---[] Winter 1 artifact
-[] You are wounded! (You currently have 2 wounds. You must pick one of each option.)
--[] Take a few breaks, every now and then. (Costs 1 action. Rolls TWO dice. 0/-15)
--[] There is no holy grail for healing magic, no miraculous wound-closing spell. But vigor-enhancing spells, and other small boosts, are a thing. The crystals where they are stored for sale are expensive, though… (Costs 60 bits. Two dice will auto-succeed)
-[] [STEPPES] There is no guarantee he will be able to help you, but you will write him about…
--[] How Silky has been shaken up by the attempt on your life, and how she might be comforted by her beloved uncle's presence. (Convince Steppes to stay out of Manehattan and out of the way of your assault and the Bureau for a month through a clever ruse.)
-[] [SOCIAL] You don't have it in you to teach anypony of the Lores. But you can make a social call to… (WRITE IN) (IF CHOSEN, will give you a -15 to your healing roll, free action)
--[] Applejack
-[] Talk to somepony? (WRITE IN who)
--[] Mayor Mare
--[] Cherilee
 
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With that said.... Draft Plan


Plan: Down but Not Out
-[] [BUREAU] You will assault Copper BEFORE the Bureau picks her trail.
-[] Assault an opponent (Copper Secateur)
--[] Who is going? (Baldomare, Mareinnete, Daughter of Axes, Biedde, Selene)
--[] What are they Taking? (Two Wrong Keys)
--[] What is their objective? (WRITE IN what your followers must do, in order of PRIORITY)
---[] Kill Copper. (Attack the Figurehead)
---[] Steal what Bits, artifacts, and what Library they have (Raid Resources)
---[] Find Neighina and talk/work/steal/negotiate with her. (Aquire or Neutralize Neighina)
--[] Anything else? (Try to keep it quiet)
-[] The Grave on the Hill
--[] Who is going? (Comet, Baldomare)
--[] What are they taking? (One Wrong Key)
-[] You are wounded! (You currently have 2 wounds. You must pick one of each option.)
--[] Take a few breaks, every now and then. (Costs 1 action. Rolls TWO dice. 0/-15)
--[] There is no holy grail for healing magic, no miraculous wound-closing spell. (Costs 60 bits. Two dice will auto-succeed)
-[] [STEPPES] There is no guarantee he will be able to help you, but you will write him about…
--[] How Silky has been shaken up by the attempt on your life, and how she might be comforted by her beloved uncle's presence.
[] [SOCIAL] You don't have it in you to teach anypony of the Lores. But you can make a social call to… (WRITE IN) (IF CHOSEN, will give you a -15 to your healing roll, free action)
--[] Mayor Mare
-[] [LEARN] It all fits together, somehow… or so you hope.
--[] "Unknown Ritual – A Memory of Light" Step one (Progress 0/100, uses Learning and LANTERN)
--[] "Unknown Ritual – A Memory of Light" Step one (Progress 0/100, uses Learning and LANTERN)




Explainer:
I did not bother with more than the three priorities, as no good plan survives contact with an enemy. The first I expect to happen, the second, to some extent. The third, we will see. Anything past that I think is wishing.
Of special note, this does not investigate the Inner Circle equivalent. I think if we ransack their resources, and library especially, this should put them far enough on the back foot to give us a turn or two.
Given Velvet is barely capable of living, doing more social calls won't help much. And with our new information with study rolls, it seems unlikely to get anything of actual use from studying the artifacts or books. Studying this, however, we can do with the SH3 Artifact I think. 2d100 +24 + (5-15? X2?) I would call good odds to figure out it out.
 
With the revelation of a likely priority list, here are how I would personally list them from most to least urgent. You may critique this as you see fit.

  1. Destroy any evidence that ties us to the Cult, and any other random Resources they have along with them
    1. While this may be an unpopular choice, I think the Dirt the Cult has on us (paired with any spirits and lore artifacts they have) is actually the most perilous part to us right now, especially with the Bureau on the way to smash Copper anyways. Plus, even if Copper and some of her followers survive the Bureau and Names, she would still be crippled without resources.
  2. Dispose of Copper Sequer
    1. Given how quickly the Wildhoof Club splintered without the Master (even with her chaotic leadership style), getting rid of the leader of a likely more "coherent" cult is a fairly obvious idea.
  3. Break the Inner Circle
    1. While they are probably more reasonable than Copper currently is, any of their personal followings would likely be the first seeds for new cults without Copper (in the same way that Copper's operation in Manehattan was), and are probably more likely to know actually dangerous lore stuff.
  4. Deal with Neighnia
    1. While I don't think she will actually be much of an (immediate) threat without Copper pointing her in our direction, it would still be good to ensure that Neighnia won't do anything too harsh against us.
  5. Disperse the Outer Circle
    1. I am not actually very worried about the Outer Circle without their leaders and resources, since their lore knowledge would likely be mostly limited to glorified parlor tricks that can't actually threaten anypony.
  6. Ruin the Infrastructure
    1. I don't actually think the buildings are worth really worrying about. Raids are the Bureau's specialty, and the property would most likely just get eaten up by mundane crime gangs if the Cult's too weakened to maintain control over them.
 
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Why are you don't take artifacts on expeditions? Are you afraid that they would be damaged?
More or less. There wouldn't be a warning about how bringing your artifacts on expeditions might mean they could be lost or damaged if that wasn't a risk, and the SH3 artifact seems the most likely to actually be used. Losing all of our Level 3 artifacts because a roll got fumbled would suck a lot, y'know?
 
Why are you don't take artifacts on expeditions? Are you afraid that they would be damaged?
With Baldomare going on the Grave Expedition, the Secret History Artifact won't be of use. I am pretty sure we can't use the unidentified Knock 2 Artifact until it's identified. The Heart 3 Artifact I would rather keep with Velvet, in case there is any unfortunate Heart Rolls that happen this turn.

And for the assault team... Save heart and Forge, they all specialize in everything else. And with no forge artifact? Well. That's why.
 
If we're not sending Baldomare, we really want the SH3 artefact, because that's +15 on a roll that seems guaranteed.

Also don't forget about the Winter 1 artefact, may as well bring that along for +5 on a Winter roll.
 
If we're not sending Baldomare, we really want the SH3 artefact, because that's +15 on a roll that seems guaranteed.

Also don't forget about the Winter 1 artefact, may as well bring that along for +5 on a Winter roll.
I'm bringing the book!

I did totally forget about the noose, though.
 

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