General World of Darkness Discussion Thread QQ Edition

[shadowdice]

The thought popped in my head of a guy embraced by the Setites or a bloodline of them (the South African ones are noted to be distant from the main clan and having trouble with their new neonates not believing the elders/dhamballans have outright fights with them) who hates that he got embraced into the clan that is weak to strong electric torches and bright lights before learning he is in the Rule 34 clan of Every Fetish

Guy: we are only not the worst because the Tzimisce and Baali exist

Most people presume he is a weird malkavian or toreador. He has to make frenzy checks when people talk about Setites

Anarchs: actually they are called the ministry

Guy: Have you heard of the children of Judas? Rebranding doesn't change the intent when it's the same people

 

[shadowdice]

I had been looking at the Ebony Kingdom book because I remembered a forum post claiming there was reference to Setites making Revenants in the book

There actually is a paragraph about the sub Saharan setites's use of breeding pens where they use normal humans, ghouls, and blood sorcery to make shock troops for the return of Set. The few successes are super hairy…which is an odd one for setites. Most revenants have a different kind of weakness outside of the one that is all albinos that burn in light

Laibon are interesting as the dominance of some clans (Guruhi, Nagloper, Osebo which seem to be nosferatu, Tzimisce, and Brujah) can be used to try and understand some of the migration of vampires.

Saulot went east, everyone knows that. But it seems that Ventrue also went east given the Danava. There is also an 8th generation Ventrue that was Native American so Ventrue MIGHT have crossed the ancient land bridge. Ennoia/Gangrel seems to have gone to India with or chasing Ravnos and gone further east with the Anda coming from that and maybe the Noiad, she also likely crossed the land bridge or went through the water.

Set might have moved south further down Africa but as setites migrate further from their origin they tend to change and eventually drop Set entirely. The daitya in India no longer have serpentis and instead have blood sorcery while the Serpents of Light loosely came from the Children of Dhamballa (that dropped obfuscate for auspex) that loosely came from sub Sahara setites

The Tlacique have the weakness of Setites but have protean which can point to the "set is a diablerist or had changed disciplines after messing with Apep" theory though there is the Gangrel theory and debate on if Drowned Legacies are a separate species. I don't like that last one with how messy Kuei Jin got. Them being the result of vampires that migrated with humanity or other antediluvians sound better to me.

I don't dislike the laibon. Ashirra and Camarilla are better seen as the result of geographic distances combining with The Old vampires siring people that end up banding over shared culture. The geographic distances and barriers make it so there being a sub Saharan faction makes sense.

Especially when a lot of places Burn easily and attempts to prevent the vampire populace from being dragged out of their havens into the sun/burned inside was a major factor for the formation of the Camarilla.

The Guruhi (Nosferatu with a different weakness and presence instead of obfuscate. You could make a Nictuku descent argument or point to Lucien in fair is foul Gehenna scenario for ancestry) need their weakness reworked since I can't remember any mechanical demerit to their appearance changing with emotion. I'd likely go with a frenzy or self control fail dropping their appearance for a time similar to Gangrel animal features

That the Ventrue are regulated to Heart of Darkness references with foreign hunters shooting elephants is boring though.

The Giovanni influence with the Ghiberti is a bit odd as the images used tends to be Africans while being referenced as an Italian family. I chalk that up to Adoption/intermarriage over generations.

Osebo are a Brujah bloodline with auspex instead of presence which can get weirder as Laibon Auspex is more focused on spirits and can take one into the spirit realm physically/teleport which has interesting applications in addition to their general concept of finding others to work for so they can have structure that helps deal with their Frenzy issues

I vaguely remember v5 referencing the Impudulu (necromancer bodyguards) so they seem to have walked back that bloodline being destroyed. Which is one of the few times I can say v5 made a good decision

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

On the gang culture part. VTM seems to just be incredibly bad at characterizing Anarchs as anything other than Gang Culture.

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Missed this somehow.

All the various vamp sects are basically some organized crime derivative. Given that the Cam and the Hecata corner the market on corporate conspiracy and the mob respectively, with the Sabbat having the cultist angle...

Should some of the Anarchs be 'activist groups that are basically gangs?' Yes, not just street gangs. Should some be 'well-to-do' gangs that are kinda like 'street level mafia.' Yes. I'm sure there are other options too. (The Anarchs are the most street level though, so I can kinda see why...)

Do you think that the devs -who I'm going to guess are overwhelmingly middle class white people that are somehow diverse, raised in the suburbs, went to college, and have never committed a crime that wasn't directly related to some sort of activism that they probably got paid to do- actually understand the different or nuanced versions of crime culture?

No, they totally only understand the various factions, to include the Anarchs, maybe if they've seen a movie or watched a TV show.

 

[shadowdice]

Missed this somehow.

All the various vamp sects are basically some organized crime derivative. Given that the Cam and the Hecata corner the market on corporate conspiracy and the mob respectively, with the Sabbat having the cultist angle...

Should some of the Anarchs be 'activist groups that are basically gangs?' Yes, not just street gangs. Should some be 'well-to-do' gangs that are kinda like 'street level mafia.' Yes. I'm sure there are other options too. (The Anarchs are the most street level though, so I can kinda see why...)

Do you think that the devs -who I'm going to guess are overwhelmingly middle class white people that are somehow diverse, raised in the suburbs, went to college, and have never committed a crime that wasn't directly related to some sort of activism that they probably got paid to do- actually understand the different or nuanced versions of crime culture?

No, they totally only understand the various factions, to include the Anarchs, maybe if they've seen a movie or watched a TV show.

Click to shrink...

this reminds me of other issues

For the anarchs. Despite the fact that the modern anarchs are framed largely through ties to generally American social movements, their issues with the camarilla outside of "neonates don't get the freedoms we want" and such almost never gets into the fact that its not just that several hundred year old elders have the power, but that Several Hundred Year Old European Elders have the power in cities that are usually North/Latin American. In part because White Wolf really does not want to focus on the Native American vampires/drowned legacies outside of "There are some left and they are all mysterious and esoteric." Like, I can't think of a city where an old Native American vampire is the ruler despite the fact that you could easily have that even if you go with "The Camarilla killed most of them"

Even the Anarch Movement is generally tied to European Elders. Juggler, from the Gary series is like Italian or Spanish (I forget if Modius is American or not), Salvador Garcia is from Spain (which gets into some weirdness with his influence in the Latin American community as I have met a lot who really hate Spain), Jeremy MacNeil is from Britain. I can easily see an Anarch from the 1700s whose opposition to the Camarilla is based upon the fact that it makes them subject to a distant European power as a "colony" which makes it really weird that the one time I can think of this being involved is in Boston...which is Camarilla versus Camarilla (loosely as this is tied to Mithras where the Camarilla part is nominal as he predates it and was more of a "yes I already did all of this already you just formalized what we already do")

Then there is the mess with the Anarch Soviet Council which, I don't think the writers realized what they were doing there.

And I don't really want to get into V5 in how it deals with the Sabbat with a lens very much tied to modern USA human viewpoint as "right wing death cult" or whatever while adding in Thin Bloods as a faction at the same time that they go "Oh, the Caitiff who discovered a ritual to remove clan ties and demanded the rights of a clan. Oh, they are called Panders as an insult because Pandering, ignore that ritual and how the guy who made it had the actual Name Joseph Pander. Which is an actual name originating from a word that meant pot."

Sabbat in general not liking the concept of clans fit them, but the retcon with their caitiff (which make up a good number of them because of mass embrace tactics) was annoying as hell.

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

See, like most modern 'activists,' the Devs don't actually understand social issues. They're about five calls deep in a game of telephone and are basically LARPing as people who are politically aware.

Convincing them of this fact is, of course, basically impossible. As such, writing a game where social issues are very prominent is pretty difficult.

So figuring out things like 'European Anarchs being different from American Anarchs' is hard for them.

Don't even dare ask them to actually take historical perspective into consideration, most of them are likely postmodernists. History starts with WWII, which is the Age of Myths, and nothing before that matters (and probably should be destroyed).

And you really nail it with the 'human American lens.' That could be specified a bit more, however, it works as is. I don't think they gave a lot of things any real thought, but that's not entirely new.

Ultimately, V5 is a Millennial game the same way the older editions are Gen X. It really shows in some cases.

 

[shadowdice]

See, like most modern 'activists,' the Devs don't actually understand social issues. They're about five calls deep in a game of telephone and are basically LARPing as people who are politically aware.

Convincing them of this fact is, of course, basically impossible. As such, writing a game where social issues are very prominent is pretty difficult.

So figuring out things like 'European Anarchs being different from American Anarchs' is hard for them.

Don't even dare ask them to actually take historical perspective into consideration, most of them are likely postmodernists. History starts with WWII, which is the Age of Myths, and nothing before that matters (and probably should be destroyed).

And you really nail it with the 'human American lens.' That could be specified a bit more, however, it works as is. I don't think they gave a lot of things any real thought, but that's not entirely new.

Ultimately, V5 is a Millennial game the same way the older editions are Gen X. It really shows in some cases.

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There isn't even much variety in pop culture gangs even in the new stuff. Like, not even a vampire Fast and Furious gang of vampire road racers

I facepalmed when the Gehenna war book had vampire fight club. And not even an entertaining one. They also retroactively fucked the Dark Ages Courts of Love with the shitty ERP book….which reminds me that even peak 90s WoD doesn't really have that despite their absurd Art

Edit

Like, one attempt by me to make an interesting Anarch Baron is a Gangrel embraced when he was practically elderly that raises and trains dogs (and other animals) who has high enough animalism and auspex that the vampire community is under a near police state in how well monitored his territory is.

Not because he is authoritarian but due to having experienced enough of WoD's absurdity that he is on constant alert to people starting shit. He also isn't even a gangster, he is just an American from the late 1800s early 1900s who complains about Europe being constantly at war or doing weird shit so he applies that to the camarilla

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Yeah, but like, all of that would take thought, effort, and understanding.

Don't you know every Anarch is a punk rocker or antifa communist? Nothing else exists, soooooooo.

Probably because they think Anarch can only mean 'anarchist.' And not a more nuanced or general 'I don't particularly want to live under the rules or thumb of my elders.'

 

[shadowdice]

Yeah, but like, all of that would take thought, effort, and understanding.

Don't you know every Anarch is a punk rocker or antifa communist? Nothing else exists, soooooooo.

Probably because they think Anarch can only mean 'anarchist.' And not a more nuanced or general 'I don't particularly want to live under the rules or thumb of my elders.'

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When it isn't that it tends to be Basically Camarilla but those guys are there as obligatory bad guys like that Callihan from New York (who was embraced by the Sabbat for extra This Is The Bad Guy energy) or well, Soviets

New Orleans. The Anarchs are primarily punk gangsters or the Phoenix Institute which wants something like the absolute destruction of all the elders

L.A the ones that aren't gangsters or punks are more like crime bosses (very loosely) or terrorists (Salvador, Smiling Jack) and the Stalinist Japanese guy

Chicago I went over (and has the odd addition that the actual gangsters in early editions were Camarilla Ventrue)

I don't remember the Anarchs in the Washington DC book

It is strange to me that early WoD put more effort into the background of the dark ages books (outside of how railroady they are) than Anarchs

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

I really think it comes down to 'I understand this' vs 'I pretend I understand this' vs 'I'm convinced I understand this.'

The devs understand their counter culture. Which is why the old VtM got 'punk' and 'edgy' but doesn't get 'principled rebellion' and V5 gets 'activism' but not 'punk.' And so on.

A surface level of understanding of anything but anarchists, street gangs, activists, and soviets undermines doing anything really cool or interesting with Anarchs.

When it comes to something like the Dark Ages, there are reams and reams and reams of material to work with to be creative around the Dark Ages. But they aren't AltHist people so the stuff from the Dark Ages is kinda on point but super railroady because they struggle to predict how things will change as things are done while maintaining continuity to modern nights.

So, yeah.

You or your ST are going to have make the Anarchs interesting beyond what the devs have in the book.

 

[Lorsïthrorung]

Having been disappointing before on the areas World of Darkness seemed to have miss(Asena the wolf-mother of Turks), has there ever been any play on Fenrisian werewolves and their relationship with the World Serpent/weresnakes/European Nagas?

Edit:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOkF_mF50pQ
After watching this series on the Fianna I wonder if the majority of black American Garou are of the aforementioned heritage given the paternal lineage from Scot-Irish biological fathers. if they've been absorbed into other tribes due to completely understandable circumstances, or the periods of inter-mirage in the north-east which can be summarized with the name Tyrone and last names that start with O'. If that's ever been explored or I'm putting it on the list next to Asena and the lack of turkish werewolves.

 

[shadowdice]

So a rant on V5, outside of the lore issues, disciplines are a major point of contention for me. Specifically, all the times where it changed disciplines. A lot of unique disciplines have been turned into outright variants of others (Fusing Obtenebration and Necromancy into one thing. Serpentis is either alternate Protean or an amalgam with other disciplines) which fails to really make them that unique as Amalgam Disciplines include powers that don't fit those either so it is more like the Combination Disciplines from before, but with it replacing powers you'd otherwise get. I am not going to get into Clan Compulsions either because I have not seen v5 players deal with it that often and it really does feel like it ruins a part of the game with "The reason you are an asshole is because you are required to be one" when the Beast is already around as a violent urge one has to control.

Ravnos: They changed all but animalism. Before they were Chimerstry, Animalism, Fortitude which relates to their history with the Gangrel. That has more or less been dropped and the Amalgam system makes it so they have Animalism, Presence, and Obfuscate. This drastically lowers their survivability and makes it so the only discipline that they keep is Animalism. If they kept fortitude they could still use Amalgams for illusions by saying it gives more Solidity to Presence or Obfuscate. Then there is their clan weakness being "I can't stay in the same place too long without spontaneous combustion" which just feels more funny to me than anything else.

Assamite: Outside of the Banu Haqim part (which I don't particularly like and feel like the clan should have their internal factions claiming different names, especially those who left Alamut) they made Quietus into Blood Sorcery (because V5 uses Blood and Red like the Space Wolves use the word Wolf). That is not that much of an issue as it was generally a manipulation of the blood. But the willingness to do this makes issues in other places. Its benefit is bringing forth the rivalry between Assamites and Tremere to make it clear to newbies that don't get deep into the lore of the long battles between them.

Salubri: I want to call them one of the most egregious examples of v5. Their weakness of being incapable of feeding on an unwilling participant is removed (despite all the role-play opportunities including someone who is an asshole who has to act in ways to get someone to submit to them willingly) in favor of "You are super tasty. More tasty than other vampires." Which gets into mechanical issues and the possibility of causing inter-party issues by using any of your powers.

Tzimisce: Vicissitude is reduced to protean. Which along with the Setites (I refuse to call them ministry) makes it so there are three clans that have Protean. I can accept that. What makes absolutely no goddamn sense however is that they switched Auspex out for Dominate. The explanation is that the special Vicissitude powers are Amalgams with Dominate by "Dominating the flesh) when they could have just as easily said that it was Auspex to allow fine tune manipulation. Yes, Old Clan Tzimisce had dominate instead of Vicissitude, but they still had Auspex. They also haven't really done much with the Tzimisce in v5 despite like a decade passing.

Malkavians: No real issue, Dementation has been rolled in with Dominate a lot previously. One lore issue is that I have seen what I think are semi-official live-plays (which, I don't enjoy most of them) have people use dementation powers that aren't malkavians without having gained forms of insanity, which is honestly one of the Best parts of Dementation in my view. It is a cool power but if you obtain it you will receive a major downside even without the possibility that you get connected to the madness network.

Lasombra: Their major chance is Oblivion being a thing now. Which yes, Obtenebration had plenty of rituals, but that was with Abyss Mysticism which was explicitly a form of Thaumaturgy. It also feels like with their Rome and later Spanish influence, and their presence in Latin America, we would have a bunch of Lasombra Necromancers from the Sabbat. But that is a consequence of this which V5 does not touch outside of the Lasombra seeing ghosts as Oblivion gets a bit of pseudo-auspex.

Hecata/Giovanni:

• I will say it here. On some level, the stuff with them can be explained because most have a relationship with each other, have alienated other groups, and are all prepared to backstab each other when they are done stealing information and necromancy from the other families.
• The "Base" Disciplines are Auspex, Fortitude, Oblivion. I honestly believe that a good part of this spread is because they rolled Obtenebration in with Necromancy for Oblivion. This makes it so the classical Giovanni spread of Dominate, Potence, Necromancy would be Dominate, Potence, Oblivion....which would be the same spread as the Lasombra.
• Part of the issue with this new spread is that Oblivion gets a power and rituals to see ghosts anyways so in the Optional discipline spreads for the family, it tends to be "Drop Auspex, pick one of the powers from the previous edition" outside of the Harbingers and Nagaraja.
• That spread also gets into issues with the Giovanni's minor families as they all have the same spread, when the previous editions had them vary to emphasize their breaking away from Giovanni methods (instead they get Loresheets which. Loresheets have mechanical issues in implementation before getting into v5 merit and flaw system where you are required to take flaws without getting points for them)
• Not all members of the bloodlines joined Hecata which still opens up stuff for players.
• Man my issues with this one is long, I ended up with this as bulletpoints because it became a big block of text

Followers of Set: I refuse to call them the Ministry. Moving on, their widespread acceptance into the anarchs is....a point of me looking at the anarchs and wondering "How little about ANYTHING do the Anarchs know about EVERYTHING" because the Setites are basically obligatory Judases. It also does not help the Anarchs are essentially all gangs aspect as the outright stereotype of the Setites are used car salesmen that also give you one dose of a super high purity drug for free before calling in tons of favors since they know you will be hooked. Protean as Serpentis is not that much of an issue as it follows what a lot of people suspect when it comes to Pre-Snake Set. From my perspective though, they kind of fucked that up as Heart of Darkness, the ability to remove their heart is now an amalgam with an Out of Clan discipline Fortitude. They could have easily leaned even more into the cult/conan influence by letting them have Blood Sorcery instead of protean or putting a bunch of Serpentis powers as Blood Sorcery abilities they can take out of clan. Which would help explain why the Anarchs embraced the Setites (They are in greater conflict with the Camarilla which now has two clans of blood sorcerers, and the anarchs generally get less supplied more experimental tremere outcasts or schismatic Assamites who don't have support networks).

Thinbloods:....Apparently v5 wanted everyone to play thinbloods but got pushback in-house. I can see the influence with how much they have pushed out the caitiff in what support they get from the books (caitiff rarely show up as a thing or are mentioned while there is talk about thin blood primogen in some cities while we never really see that for caitiff in v5). Thinbloods are by far the most V5 is Made for Millennials aspect of the game with them taking selfies with hashtags while having blood in cups/smoothies that they pot online with not even thinly veiled references to what they are doing. Which goes against V5s claims that the vampires are under major pressure from mortal intelligence agencies to the point that even a lot of their codewords are compromised. Which only JUSTIFIES the culling of thin bloods in lore before getting into the new lore of people who have kids even years after being fed on giving birth to weird babies that have visible bloodsucking abominations floating out of their mouths when they are asleep. Thinblood Alchemy is an okay idea executed poorly as previous editions already had it be that caitiff and thin bloods were more likely to be Inceptors.

 

[Kalem_Lee]

Hey did anyone make a WoD thread for the NSFW section for fics and ideas?

 

[Gedou_Meta]

There is/was. The person that started the has since essentially left via scrubbing everything so it isn't easy to look for.

 

[shadowdice]

I hate that Nsfw and VTM reminded me of G5's cursed ERP book that has an NPC love interest with a fuck couch that hasn't been cleaned since before the sixties and considers it "romantic" for the stains of all the previous lovers mixing together

Cuck chairs seem vanilla compared to that

edit

how cursed would a readthrough of that be?

 

[Maragas]

how cursed would a readthrough of that be?

Click to shrink...

That sounds F.A.T.A.L., meaning you should go for it and roll anal circumference.

 

[shadowdice]

That sounds F.A.T.A.L., meaning you should go for it and roll anal circumference.

Click to shrink...

BSL is a very bad book

bloodstained love: "There are romantics too, among the Kindred. For them, the wedding (between Victoria Ash and Teygrius) represents the triumph of lover over the ennui of centuries, an example of how power politics can coexist with the most delicate intimate emotions"

also BSL: "We're gonna give you a bunch of letters from victoria ash about how she likes to deceive and play around with people while deceiving them into loving her and how she doesn't think that's bad"