General World of Darkness Discussion Thread QQ Edition

[gale]

First Massasa War or second? Because for the first, you're talking about an eighty year span that reduces the Order of Hermes to a shadow of its self and definitively involves the eldest of the Tremere, the consumption of House Tremere at the fangs of Clan Tremere who just has its new Ante, and takes place in the Dark Medieval period while the metaphysics of DA Mage is starting to fall the fuck apart leading to spells failing.

The second probably doesn't have much for it because it's already a play, nice and pat, and has so much already set in stupid, stupid stone.

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I mean the second one should lead to Mages just fucking over Tremere due to Spheres not being something Tremere can defend against

 

[Wwind]

I mean the second one should lead to Mages just fucking over Tremere due to Spheres not being something Tremere can defend against

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Well, my friend. In general Mages are too OP for any sort of a crossover game. Meanwhile Vampires are the most profitable game line. So, WW had to... improvise. Now in mage games other supernaturals can use... I think Wits+Occult as countermagic at diff.6. Which is just silly as it makes everyone else better at countering Magick then mages themselves.

In older editions (which Massasa War 2 is part of) there were more reasonable ways for countermagic. Like Tremere specific thaumaturgy path. A jealously guarded secret.

 

[Gedou_Meta]

In mage itself, supernaturals can do basic countermagic except against instant damage type spells (dodge or Per+Awa there) with Wits+Occult generally limited by some other trait. M20 has it as Willpower for Vampires, and has the difficulty as the higher of 7 or Mage's Arete. IIRC, some book, probably Blood Treachery, does also let the Thaumaturgical Countermagic path of the Tremere come into play but that countermagic is done at half efficiency. IE, every two successes removes one from the mage's work. But what I was trying to get at is something different in both cases.

For Massassa War 1, it does deserve to exist but WW overloaded it and so it best exists as A Thing in the backstory, while MW2 is much smaller in scale but the problems start with the mages ignoring that they have Very Good Reason to know that the Tremere are Vampires that Die in the Sun and that they still do their static magic in a way that's at least Hermetic aligned.

 

[Wwind]

MW2 is much smaller in scale but the problems start with the mages ignoring that they have Very Good Reason to know that the Tremere are Vampires that Die in the Sun and that they still do their static magic in a way that's at least Hermetic aligned.

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they didn't tho?
It is explicitly mentioned that the book just left our daytime raids, suicidal ghoul kill teams and power jockeying with mind control. It explicitly mentioned rules for conjuring sunlight (favoring vampires, of course). We even have Hermetics conjuring Angel of the sun to roast vampires.

Now, Hermetics are not an army. Their main objective is not combat. They don't even have Beast or Rage that enables other supernatural to engage in such explosive violence.
Not to mention at the time their Masters and most combat capable mages got hit by Avatar Storm.

 

[gale]

they didn't tho?
It is explicitly mentioned that the book just left our daytime raids, suicidal ghoul kill teams and power jockeying with mind control. It explicitly mentioned rules for conjuring sunlight (favoring vampires, of course). We even have Hermetics conjuring Angel of the sun to roast vampires.

Now, Hermetics are not an army. Their main objective is not combat. They don't even have Beast or Rage that enables other supernatural to engage in such explosive violence.
Not to mention at the time their Masters and most combat capable mages got hit by Avatar Storm.

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Yes they do? One of the whole things for Mages, is the fact they can make artificial life forms or constructs that have a wide range of things and one of those things is Rage, and there is also the fact Mages as baseline tend to have Willpower 5 which makes them zealots in all willpower systems.

 

[Wwind]

Yes they do?

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What are you responding to with this? because what I meant was - no they did not forget sunlight kills vampires.

One of the whole things for Mages, is the fact they can make artificial life forms or constructs that have a wide range of things and one of those things is Rage

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Hm. I could have been more precise I guess, as all things are possible with mage. So while I do not remember any case of them manufacturing anything living with Rage, Inhuman aggression is possible. For example with transplants, or taking Nephilim merit. But it is not free and universal like with vamps.

and there is also the fact Mages as baseline tend to have Willpower 5 which makes them zealots in all willpower systems.

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Sure, higher than other starting characters or NPCs. But not really that important. Usually vampires have higher dice pools and if mage WP gets low enough they lose access to Sphere levels.

 

[gale]

Sure, higher than other starting characters or NPCs. But not really that important. Usually vampires have higher dice pools and if mage WP gets low enough they lose access to Sphere levels.

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I mean it is, there is also the fact Mages don't have a morality stat like Vampires or werewolves werid form of it. Mages are by and large Zealots that are very willing and able to kill. Even low Sphere levels (2) make them deadly as fuck compared to Vampires and others.

 

[Gedou_Meta]

they didn't tho?
It is explicitly mentioned that the book just left our daytime raids, suicidal ghoul kill teams and power jockeying with mind control. It explicitly mentioned rules for conjuring sunlight (favoring vampires, of course). We even have Hermetics conjuring Angel of the sun to roast vampires.

Now, Hermetics are not an army. Their main objective is not combat. They don't even have Beast or Rage that enables other supernatural to engage in such explosive violence.
Not to mention at the time their Masters and most combat capable mages got hit by Avatar Storm.

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The book's opening fiction has to start with a nighttime raid or else the falling gargoyle, hole blown in the roof, and art all have some real questions to answer. And while it says that they were told not to rely on magic, they seem to be using extremely little magic or countermagic despite the main attack team being largely Flambeau who are the Order's war mages with battle consors. There's reasons for that order, but after the first spell gets thrown there should be a lot more in that battle alone, and more actively.

Act 2 also explicitly has a night battle where guns are the order of the day for the mages, even though it's in a vampire chantry. Which, again, the Hermetics should know that the Tremere were once a house of theirs, and therefore this is a perfect time to use lots of little and big magical effects. Which in the section for running this as a campaign mentions that, but by and large what we are shown is guns, magic mostly failing to achieve results when used against the vampires, and one hilariously bad botch that I feel needs its own call out despite the previous point that I mentioned. Even one of the better showings for magic, when a Hermetic chantry is attacked in Scene 11 is still mostly phyrric. But that's essentially the end of the second act where the third act is the pure drama denoument and a deus ex machina as is appropriate for the Greek play style of the majority of the book.

 

[Wwind]

I mean it is, there is also the fact Mages don't have a morality stat like Vampires or werewolves werid form of it. Mages are by and large Zealots that are very willing and able to kill. Even low Sphere levels (2) make them deadly as fuck compared to Vampires and others.

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Werewolves don't have morality stat either. The Litany is more like code of religious law, not a morality stat. Mages don't have a morality system like vampires because they are too human in that dimension.
Now, free WP 5 means you save on 2 freebie points. But that is pretty much it. Also, having strong will doesn't mean being a zealot (that would be werewolves again), though some well are. Same with willingness to kill. Mages are not automatically combatants. Nor are mages safe from combat stress and ptsd.

Now, sphere 2 is the basic level where you can affect things. Of course with sufficient imagination and theoretical 2 in every sphere you can do quite a lot, but usually not as immediately and directly lethal. Beast sure comes in handy there.

Starting mage would have something like Arete 2 and 3 Spheres at second level. Let's say it's a Hermetic with Forces 2, Prime 2 and Mind 2. Meaning you are rolling 2 dice for casting, probably at higher difficulty.

A Tremere for simplicity case would have Thaumaturgy 2 and Dominate 2 (or Auspex 2). Though selection is more limited, they are rolling 4-6 dice for it. With some blood at hand vampire could boost physical attributes to 5.

If I wanted a face-to-face combat mage at the starting level, it's better idea to invest into Wonders, Implants, and a Niphilim merit. Or a god-body tattoo if you are really into it.

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Interesting Points

The book's opening fiction has to start with a nighttime raid or else the falling gargoyle, hole blown in the roof, and art all have some real questions to answer. And while it says that they were told not to rely on magic, they seem to be using extremely little magic or countermagic despite the main attack team being largely Flambeau who are the Order's war mages with battle consors. There's reasons for that order, but after the first spell gets thrown there should be a lot more in that battle alone, and more actively.

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I am pretty sure it was some Orphan hired by a Hermetic to break into an individual tremere chantry and steal some books. Tremere had a guard gargoyle which the orphan shot full of Prime enchanted bullets. And promptly asked for hazard pay.

Act 2 also explicitly has a night battle where guns are the order of the day for the mages, even though it's in a vampire chantry.

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They are using various magic at the time. Not to the fullest potential of course, as I said - not a combat Order mostly. You want war mages? Vaeldarman.

As for the guns - excellent choice. Instead of chanting and concentrating against enemies that are physically tougher and cast faster/stronger, they chose to use reliable ranged aggravated firepower. Good choice really.

Which, again, the Hermetics should know that the Tremere were once a house of theirs, and therefore this is a perfect time to use lots of little and big magical effects.

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They do use it. Including archangel summoning, fire elementals, flambeu spells, hacking the tremere wards with computer magic, Etc. You do remmember most masters of the art got ganked by plot and it's mostly sphere 2-3 mages right?

But that's essentially the end of the second act where the third act is the pure drama denoument and a deus ex machina as is appropriate for the Greek play style of the majority of the book.

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yeah, as I said vampires are the most profitable game line. Had to save their face XD

 

[Gedou_Meta]

Interesting Points

I am pretty sure it was some Orphan hired by a Hermetic to break into an individual tremere chantry and steal some books. Tremere had a guard gargoyle which the orphan shot full of Prime enchanted bullets. And promptly asked for hazard pay.

They are using various magic at the time. Not to the fullest potential of course, as I said - not a combat Order mostly. You want war mages? Vaeldarman.

As for the guns - excellent choice. Instead of chanting and concentrating against enemies that are physically tougher and cast faster/stronger, they chose to use reliable ranged aggravated firepower. Good choice really.

They do use it. Including archangel summoning, fire elementals, flambeu spells, hacking the tremere wards with computer magic, Etc. You do remmember most masters of the art got ganked by plot and it's mostly sphere 2-3 mages right?

yeah, as I said vampires are the most profitable game line. Had to save their face XD

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For the opening fiction, it's literally got several of the characters from the play in it, complete with the bani for their houses at some points. And it has a Flambeau squad of unknown size, but enough that losing three mages and ten custos isn't treated as too horrible a loss. They even have Verbena healing help.

And the guns are not good ranged damage at least as it's shown. I can't get my hands on a 2nd/revised core, but I think that Dragon's Breath rounds reduced the range to something like ten yards, and if we go by M20, then the incendiary rounds reduce the guns to 4A base damage. Or less than what you could do with two successes on a Forces 2 effect to make burning hairspray burn hotter or conjuring fire with Forces 3/Prime 2 without a lot of luck. Worse, neither is as efficient as just using Prime 2 to enhance a normal weapon to do Agg instead of Bashing, but that doesn't seem to have been on the plate.

And I do, but given that it's mostly narrative and how things are done I wonder if the writers did. It wouldn't be the first time something major got ignored. But I stand by my point that for most of the story, we aren't shown or even told enough daytime actions by the Hermetics, and it feels like the only mages enhanced are the ones that doped themselves up on vampire blood.

 

[Bommel]

I have been watching The Maxx and it seems very Changeling story. What do you think?

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On that topic, does anyone know any stories featuring Changelings as a main or prominent part of the plot?

 

[Wwind]

For the opening fiction, it's literally got several of the characters from the play in it, complete with the bani for their houses at some points. And it has a Flambeau squad of unknown size, but enough that losing three mages and ten custos isn't treated as too horrible a loss. They even have Verbena healing help.

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That would be the first mage attack on vampire chantry. A pretty big one I think. Though loosing 3 mages is indeed a bit of a pain.
I was talking about orphan hired to steal Tremere books, which also shoots gargoyle in the process.

And the guns are not good ranged damage at least as it's shown. I can't get my hands on a 2nd/revised core, but I think that Dragon's Breath rounds reduced the range to something like ten yards, and if we go by M20, then the incendiary rounds reduce the guns to 4A base damage. Or less than what you could do with two successes on a Forces 2 effect to make burning hairspray burn hotter or conjuring fire with Forces 3/Prime 2 without a lot of luck. Worse, neither is as efficient as just using Prime 2 to enhance a normal weapon to do Agg instead of Bashing, but that doesn't seem to have been on the plate.

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I do remember them specifically enchanting shotguns with Prime/Forces. So it would be like 5A unsoakable damage. You throw on some forces rote to help with aiming and it is very solid for 1 action damage.
Using Prime 2 to enchant swords is a good idea. Getting into melee with frenzied vampire is not. Especially when you are a squishy academic.

And I do, but given that it's mostly narrative and how things are done I wonder if the writers did. It wouldn't be the first time something major got ignored. But I stand by my point that for most of the story, we aren't shown or even told enough daytime actions by the Hermetics, and it feels like the only mages enhanced are the ones that doped themselves up on vampire blood.

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Amen. I do agree with points here. Some of the reasons why I think it's a good game/fic material.

On that topic, does anyone know any stories featuring Changelings as a main or prominent part of the plot?

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alas, those are rare. You can find a couple I think on FF. But quality is meh. There is one with changeling tailor on SB, but its short/unfinished and CtL, not Dreaming.