Just a Phase [Worm]

The Unicorn · Nov 10, 2023

Praetrunco said:
That's funny, because I looked up what constitutes attempted murder (and sure, it might vary by state), but the few I looked at all stated that one such route by which the jury could judge one guilty of attempted murder was if the act they committed on someone was something a reasonable person could consider would carry a risk of killing the individual. Like I fucking said, verbatim.

Cite please.
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2010/titlelxii/chapter629/section629-1
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.c.../crime-penalties/charged-attempted-murder.htm

Whether or not people think things through is irrelevant. Otherwise, picking up a loaded firearm and pointing it in someone's direction wouldn't ever qualify as attempted murder when their finger winds up pulling the trigger, because golly gee, they're stupid and how potentially lethal something is doesn't matter because they didn't think about it.

Pointing a gun at someone with the finger on the trigger is usually NOT attempted murder. It may or may not even be a crime.
There are a number of requirements for a crime to qualify for attempted murder and while some jurisdictions may have "something a reasonable person could consider would carry a risk of killing the individual" as one of the conditions for attempted murder it is not enough on it's own.

Given the rise of charging people with murder,

Lots of things become murder when someone dies, even though they are not attempted murder if you were lucky enough no one dies. This is due to laws such as Felony homicide, negligent homicide, etc...

Yes, because they carried the bags of used products to her locker by hopping into them.

No, because they'd assume the bags would protect them from the needles posited to be in there. The point is if there were needles in those bags they'd be very luck to avoid getting stuck by one, and would be at more of a risk of getting infected by something in them than Taylor would days later (although getting stuck by a contaminated needle would be bad even if all you got was decomposition products)

Your stance is categorically false and scientifically ignorant, for reasons I've already covered prior numerous times.

You mean I refuse to accept your unsupported claims and instead go by actual scientific cites?

Praetrunco · Nov 10, 2023

The Unicorn said:
Cite please.

If you're going to later state that the requirements don't even matter while conveniently disregarding the very crux of that particular aspect of that conversation, why?

That's bad faith twice over.

The Unicorn said:
Pointing a gun at someone with the finger on the trigger is usually NOT attempted murder. It may or may not even be a crime.

It's almost like there words that followed those, and based on the basics of linguistics, were of actual RELEVANCE to the aforementioned. Oh, yes, there were. And yes, they were.

Ergo, yes, in said circumstances, it would actually make you wrong yet again.

Again, employ basic logic.

The Unicorn said:
Lots of things become murder when someone dies, even though they are not attempted murder if you were lucky enough no one dies. This is due to laws such as Felony homicide, negligent homicide, etc...

Almost like I was addressing a cultural shift in policy by some regarding the segment of the line you removed in your quotation.

The Unicorn said:
No, because they'd assume the bags would protect them from the needles posited to be in there. The point is if there were needles in those bags they'd be very luck to avoid getting stuck by one, and would be at more of a risk of getting infected by something in them than Taylor would days later (although getting stuck by a contaminated needle would be bad even if all you got was decomposition products)

Nobody would assume that without being stupid enough to disregard the threat such items can pose to people's health by dint of them having to be specifically placed in a biological hazard container for disposal.

At which point, it still becomes categorically worse for the person shoved into the mess after it rots for a while, even were there no needles whatsoever.

This is because of, to reiterate my constant refrain, the basic fundamentals of scientific fact. Additionally, the circumstances actually at play.

The Unicorn said:
You mean I refuse to accept your unsupported claims and instead go by actual scientific cites?

Sure. How infectious vectors and injuries function are unsupported claims, whereas assuming things that are patently insipid is actual scientific 'citations', as though there isn't extensive history of people being affected by TSS or septicemia without it involving being shoved into a metal box as an active victim of physical violence and being forced to lie relatively inert in aptly-recognized fetid waste. Why, if we were talking about compression syndrome I'm sure you'd be advocating that her bullies were more at risk because they stood outside the locker laughing for so long.

Maybe you can do what you did 19 pages ago and prevaricate yourself right out of the argument because you can't be bothered actually addressing what I type and would rather imagine something entirely different for each and every segment.

KingCrimson1081 · Nov 10, 2023

The Unicorn said:
Nope, in canon it is a very well maintained school, although one with a piss poor anti-bullying program.
All the depictions of Winslow as so terrible are fanon.

Not really since there was literally a statement from one of the teachers in Hive 5.4 about the gang presence in the school, people bringing in knives, and drug use.

Mr. Quinlan, my math teacher, spoke, "You have to understand, other things demand our attention. There's a gang presence in this school, and we deal with serious events like students bringing knives to class, drug use, and students suffering life threatening injuries in fights on the campus.

So yeah while on the outside Winslow might be physically maintained, as in the infrastructure, and not crumbling at the seams like seen in most stories it certainly wasn't a good school by any stretching of the term.

That and based on the statements from one of the teachers who works there it is safe to assume that used needles could have very easily ended up in the waste thrown into Taylor's locker.

The Unicorn · Nov 10, 2023

Praetrunco said:
If you're going to later state that the requirements don't even matter while conveniently disregarding the very crux of that particular aspect of that conversation, why?

If I had a clue what you were trying to say here I might be able to answer that.

It's almost like there words that followed those, and based on the basics of linguistics, were of actual RELEVANCE to the aforementioned. Oh, yes, there were. And yes, they were.

I'm not seeing the elevence, please explain.

Again, employ basic logic.

What logic? You seem to be saying that since people get accused of murder when X happens and someone dies as a result than when X happens and no one dies it's attempted murder. I'm pointing out that's not how the laws in the US (and I believe most of the world) work, regardless of if that would be logical or not. If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it.

Almost like I was addressing a cultural shift in policy by some regarding the segment of the line you removed in your quotation.

Are you trying to say you belive the laws would work this way in Worm despite the fact they don't work that way in RL?

This is because of, to reiterate my constant refrain, the basic fundamentals of scientific fact. Additionally, the circumstances actually at play.

You keep saying this but never actually provide any cites for these supposed scientific facts, just your baseless assertions.
Here are some more cites for you, although I again notice I'm the only one providing cites here:
As STD was mentioned earlier in the thread
https://www.stdcheck.com/blog/std-live-outside-body/ basically within hours there would be no risk of STD from the blood or blood products in the waste, given Taylor wasn't exposed to it until days (someone suggested it might even be a couple of weeks) later there'd be no risk of her catching any STD from the locker.

Next your favorite dead horse, toxic Shock syndrome, this at least is possible however given any exposure Taylor would have would be to scratches on the extremities, not areas with much higher blood flow, given the waste material would have undergone multiple heating/cooling cycles which would tend to kill off the microbe and Taylor is not one of the high risk groups for blood infection by Staphylococcus aureus this is quite low risk, and would be further mitigated by simply cleaning any scratches she got in the locker.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7244392/
Additionally, while Staphylococcus aureus can survive at quite low temperatures, it not only doesn't grow in those conditions but the viability of the cultures is reduced.
https://www.foodstandards.gov.au/publications/Documents/Staphylococcus aureus.pdf
So as I keep saying this is something that's possible, but a very low risk for Taylor.

Now, do you have any actual cites supporting your assertions, or will you just keep repeating the same nonsense with no support?

EDIT:

KingCrimson1081 said:
Not really since there was literally a statement from one of the teachers in Hive 5.4 about the gang presence in the school, people bringing in knives, and drug use.

So yeah while on the outside Winslow might be physically maintained, as in the infrastructure, and not crumbling at the seams like seen in most stories it certainly wasn't a good school by any stretching of the term.

First, check the context - that's the school trying to justify why they didn't look after Taylor. I think we can all agree they were lying and acting criminally in that meeting so I don't see any reason to assume that statement by Mr. Quinlan is the unbiased truth.
Second, the teacher seems to consider "drug use" as at least as serious an issue as the gangs. Given that EVERY school has to deal with drug use, that's actually a good sign for the quality of the school in general.

That said, I agree it makes sense for Winslow to have significant issues with gang presence and violence in the school, but that does not automatically mean it doesn't do a good job of teaching most kids. It's quite possible to have a school with gang problems and still be a fairly good school by many metrics.

Lement · Nov 10, 2023

SlickRCBD said:
That's because any prosecutor would have a hard time getting an attempted murder charge to stick. The Trio weren't trying to kill her, they wanted Taylor to suffer and everyone knows it. They went a bit too far and didn't realize how dangerous what they did was, but it was not technically attempted murder.
They would be nailed for false imprisonment and assault, and mishandling/misuse of biohazardous materials, whatever the charges would be called.

Regarding "wanting to suffer, not kill", here lack of medical knowledge is a plus for realizing the danger: As a basic safety precaution, (near) every girl who uses one is taught leaving tampon in for too long - measured in hours - can kill you; because of this one should change it in between 4 and 8 hours.

Meanwhile, knowing how long pathogens live outside the body is not something everyone knows.

The Unicorn's cites are interesting in expected consequences, but because of this they may not apply for someone like Tattletale's inferred opinion.

KingCrimson1081 · Nov 11, 2023

The Unicorn said:
First, check the context - that's the school trying to justify why they didn't look after Taylor. I think we can all agree they were lying and acting criminally in that meeting so I don't see any reason to assume that statement by Mr. Quinlan is the unbiased truth.
Second, the teacher seems to consider "drug use" as at least as serious an issue as the gangs. Given that EVERY school has to deal with drug use, that's actually a good sign for the quality of the school in general.

The fact that the school staff was lying and acting criminally in that meeting does not paint a good picture for the school that does canonically have a crime issue. Additionally the fact that the teachers did know about the issue with Gladly even watching it happen on one occassion and did nothing does not imply they took active measures against the gang or drug problem. If they are unwilling to do anything against the comparatively less violent issues in front of them what are the odds they are willing to step in for the actual violent events.

Besides where in canon are there any perspectives on Winslow that challenge the belief that it is a shit hole?

The Unicorn said:
but that does not automatically mean it doesn't do a good job of teaching most kids. It's quite possible to have a school with gang problems and still be a fairly good school by many metrics.

The grades of the students are irrelevant to the arguement, the arguement is that Winslow is not a good school because things like the Locker were allowed to happen, that the teachers knew about the issue and did nothing going as far as to lie and act in a criminal manner to cover it up.

Praetrunco · Nov 11, 2023

The Unicorn said:
If I had a clue what you were trying to say here I might be able to answer that.

I plainly stated that you disregarded the writing of the statute, and the proximate causation of the crime's circumstances. If you can't understand that, why the fuck did you even bother replying?

The Unicorn said:
I'm not seeing the elevence, please explain.

When you pull the trigger of a loaded firearm that is functional, a bullet is expelled. Bullets hurt people. Sometimes, hurt enough to kill.

Is this explanation simple enough for you to grasp the whole?

The Unicorn said:
What logic? You seem to be saying that since people get accused of murder when X happens and someone dies as a result than when X happens and no one dies it's attempted murder. I'm pointing out that's not how the laws in the US (and I believe most of the world) work, regardless of if that would be logical or not. If you have evidence to the contrary please provide it.

The logic in that if someone points a loaded firearm at another person, and consciously pulls the trigger, most jurisdictions generally look to that as being attempted murder when there is no precipitate justification. As per the adjacent text in said quotation and response, prior to this insipid garbage.

Whereas what you're ranting at, is an entirely separate paragraph addressing a completely different vein of focus. Again, as explicitly pointed out by what you deliberately removed from the quotation, prior.

If you're going to continue to argue in such bad faith and blatantly ignorant conflation of entirely different thesis', stop bothering to pretend you're smarter than you are.

To whit, no, that is actually how the laws work in areas that have made the cultural shift to address people pushing others towards suicide as being guilty of murder. I did not state it was mandatory, be it nationally or globally, I said it was culturally promoted by people who have the audacity to think people should be held responsible for driving someone to take their life. Since laws are not set in stone, and change readily.... yes, that's very much how they work.

The Unicorn said:
Are you trying to say you belive the laws would work this way in Worm despite the fact they don't work that way in RL?

There are laws on this topic that are over a decade old. Why would you pretend they don't exist at all beyond deciding your opinion is god's law and not what information is readily available if you spend five seconds doing research?

The Unicorn said:
You keep saying this but never actually provide any cites for these supposed scientific facts, just your baseless assertions.

Where you to have cited anything regarding biological hazards, submersion in them, chances of injury in claustrophic environments, you know, ANYTHING ACTUALLY EVEN TANGENTIALLY RELEVANT, you might have engendered me further.

Unfortunately (given I was never really involved in the STD discussion), your first worthwhile citation disregards the circumstances prior to hospital entry. Understandable, since not many experiments or data sets revolve around the principle crux of the argument, but when the conclusions focuses almost entirely on treatment measures and behavior of the bacteria, anybody who has actual understanding of science (even at the basic level of a biology course), is going to be able to tell that you've mistook technical jargon for actual beneficial material.

A medical journal on the nature of the bacterium has almost zero potential for relevancy in the necessary scope of this discussion. We're not talking about how to treat Taylor, or what treatments to give, so a document created to aid said avenues is worthless, here.

Someone who legitimately knows either science or logic would understand that.

The Unicorn · Nov 11, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
Besides where in canon are there any perspectives on Winslow that challenge the belief that it is a shit hole?

The intact bathroom, the fact they have an involved art class and a computer class with unmonitored internet access. All of these imply both decent access to funds and fairly good control of the students as a whole, even if they are incredibly shitty at stopping bullying.

The grades of the students are irrelevant to the arguement

Say what? I have no idea what your argument is but they are very central to the argument that I was making which is that while Winslow isn't a great school, and is incredibly shitty by some metrics, it could be a fairly good school by others (for example grades, or 5 year graduate outcome).

Praetrunco said:
I plainly stated that you disregarded the writing of the statute, and the proximate causation of the crime's circumstances.

Ah, so another baseless assertion with no evidence to support it. Okay.

When you pull the trigger of a loaded firearm that is functional, a bullet is expelled. Bullets hurt people. Sometimes, hurt enough to kill.

Is this explanation simple enough for you to grasp the whole?

That's assault with a deadly weapon, not "attempted murder". Not unless the prosecutor can prove intent to kill.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Assault-Deadly-Weapon.htm
Unless of course you actually have a cite for any of the nonsense you're spouting.

Praetrunco · Nov 11, 2023

The Unicorn said:
Ah, so another baseless assertion with no evidence to support it. Okay.

According to this post:

The Unicorn said:
There are a number of requirements for a crime to qualify for attempted murder and while some jurisdictions may have "something a reasonable person could consider would carry a risk of killing the individual" as one of the conditions for attempted murder it is not enough on it's own.

You very much don't care for the writing of the statute or the proximate causation of the crime.

Your own words.

You want to call my stance baseless, remember your own to begin with. And then apply basic fucking logic.

Before you retort with 'But my citations overrule your nonexistent ones and that makes me right!" as twits like you are wont to.... again, return to the principle origin for this entire debacle of how you're functionally illiterate: You disregarding law stating that if a reasonable individual can assume an act will cause death, it qualifies as attempted murder. I'm not going to lmgtfy, because typing two words (attempted murder) into a search engine and waiting the second it takes to crawl for results should still fundamentally take less time than it does for you to remove half of the text from a statement and conflate it with an entirely different line of text and train of thought. Let alone the multiple times you've done so.

Oblique and unconditional intents say hello, otherwise, in case you yet again erroneously decide to state "That's not sufficient enough justification to charge.", yet again forgetting the whole of the circumstances at play, like a complete and utter fucking muppet that can't connect A and B without your hand being held the entire time.

Otherwise, I'm through dealing with such a waste of space until you display basic literacy and furthermore sufficient enough good faith in an argument to acknowledge anything that actually gets typed on this website.

The Unicorn · Nov 11, 2023

Praetrunco said:
You very much don't care for the writing of the statute or the proximate causation of the crime.

Unlike you I actually posted cites for my claims and support them with evidence. If you want to keep spouting nonsense with no support or basis in fact, then have fun talking to yourself. If you want to actually debate the subject, feel free to find and post some cites to your many claims.

KingCrimson1081 · Nov 12, 2023

The Unicorn said:
The intact bathroom, the fact they have an involved art class and a computer class with unmonitored internet access. All of these imply both decent access to funds and fairly good control of the students as a whole, even if they are incredibly shitty at stopping bullying.

The bathrooms were old and worn down so I don't know where you got that from. As for the computer class it was mentioned in Insinuation 2.2 that the model computer they were using was ancient which shows the low funding of the school itself.

This suited me just fine – I usually wrapped up the assignment in a half hour, leaving me an hour to use as I saw fit. I had been recalling and going over the events of the previous night during my morning run, and the first thing that I did when the ancient desktop finished its agonizing load process was to start digging for information.

Plus Brockton Bay's economy as a whole was on the down turn so it is very unlikely that an inner-city school like Winslow would be seeing any meaningful amount of funding compared to other schools like Arcadia and Immaculata.

The Unicorn said:
it could be a fairly good school by others (for example grades, or 5 year graduate outcome).

However we are shown on multiple occasions that the teachers don't really care with Mr. Gladly and their treatment of Taylor being the more obvious examples, but here is another excerpt from the text, specifically Shell 4.1, for more context.

Mr. Quinlan had ended class fifteen minutes early and instructed us to do some self study, before leaving the room. For most, that was a chance to play cards or talk. I'd set myself the task of getting all the homework done before class ended, to free up my weekend. At least, that had been the plan, before Emma interrupted.

...

I wasn't that worried about skipping out of class five minutes early. If history was any precedent, Mr. Quinlan probably wouldn't be coming back before class ended. He routinely left class and just didn't come back. Popular guesses among my classmates leaned towards Alzheimers, or even that our geriatric teacher with a sagging gut could be a cape. I was more inclined to suspect that drugs or a drinking problem were at play.

That is literally one of the school teachers just leaving class for no reason what so ever which doesn't paint a good picture about how the school is doing in general.

But beyond that the biggest argument in my favor is that Winslow as a whole is written as the typical bad inner-city school with gang issues, drug use, low funding, and all around bad academic performance, and we aren't given any evidence to the contrary in canon. While fanon may exaggerate Winslow's negative aspects to a cartoonish level that doesn't mean it was a good school by any definition of the word.

Praetrunco · Nov 12, 2023

The Unicorn said:
Unlike you I actually posted cites for my claims and support them with evidence. If you want to keep spouting nonsense with no support or basis in fact, then have fun talking to yourself. If you want to actually debate the subject, feel free to find and post some cites to your many claims.

Your citations do absolutely nothing to support your claims, as foremost, the information they contained was without consequence, but more importantly, relevance. Your imposter syndrome is flaring mightily.

Information discussed rote in basic biology, health, and science classes aren't without support and given they form the frameworks of more advanced medical instruction, especially nursing practices and medical procedure executed globally, stating them to be without basis in fact clearly establishes that reality is a field you do not comprehend the slightest iota of... as I've had to reiterate multiples times in 19 pages because you refuse to see the most elementary of reason due to your vapid neuroses.

Frankly, your stance disrespects multiple fields of professionals purely by existence. You denigrate teachers, doctors, and nurses, by proclaiming that a good portion of their knowledge base and work are nothing but vapor and fake news.

Have a nice, ignorant life.

The Unicorn · Nov 12, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
The bathrooms were old and worn down

I don't recall anything about that. I do recall Taylor hiding in a bathroom that wasn't filthy enough to note, had intact mirrors and stall doors, and didn't even have a group of smokers, much less druggies taking it over (that last is pretty farfetched even for good schools).

so I don't know where you got that from. As for the computer class it was mentioned in Insinuation 2.2 that the model computer they were using was ancient which shows the low funding of the school itself.

The computers might have been ancient(whatever that counts as for a teenager) but they were all connected to the internet with no restriction. That's quite a bit of money invested in them, even if the computers were several years old.

Plus Brockton Bay's economy as a whole was on the down turn so it is very unlikely that an inner-city school like Winslow would be seeing any meaningful amount of funding compared to other schools like Arcadia and Immaculata.

Unless there was a project to try and help them recover. That actually could explain them having a budget for various extras, and apathetic worn out teachers.

However we are shown on multiple occasions that the teachers don't really care

Ehh...not sure about that. Depending on the rules of the school it might not be possible for Gladly to do anything without Taylor speaking up.
Of course this gets to how impossible the way the school treated Taylor is, but that's a seperate issue.

Praetrunco said:
Your imposter syndrome is flaring mightily.

LOL! Okay, I wasn't going to respond to you, but this is such a great accidental compliment (unless you meant to say I'm much more skilled and capable than I think I am?). Thank you.

Psiidmon · Nov 12, 2023

The scene where Gladly walked away from Taylor was immediately after her being like "I will only accept getting all three of the ringleaders expelled otherwise you're worse than useless" so of course when he had a chance to either step in and invite retaliation like Taylor warned could happen if they weren't expelled, or walk away, he chose the one that wouldn't give her false hope.

... then during the Leviathan fight she condemns him and a hundred people standing around him to death for that (and for him daring to have a partner who didn't loathe him). Great job canon Taylor, real heroic!

KingCrimson1081 · Nov 12, 2023

Psiidmon said:
The scene where Gladly walked away from Taylor was immediately after her being like "I will only accept getting all three of the ringleaders expelled otherwise you're worse than useless"

Considering the trio by that point had pulled the locker and had a group of jocks chase Taylor with duct tape I would argue that them getting expelled would have been expected.

Psiidmon said:
so of course when he had a chance to either step in and invite retaliation like Taylor warned could happen if they weren't expelled, or walk away, he chose the one that wouldn't give her false hope.

That is a very favorable interpretation of Gladly there and it was just as likely that he was too apathetic to actually stand up for Taylor. Besides Taylor was ultimately right considering when she did get Sophia in trouble Sophia went after her and nearly tore her ear off.

Psiidmon said:
... then during the Leviathan fight she condemns him and a hundred people standing around him to death for that (and for him daring to have a partner who didn't loathe him). Great job canon Taylor, real heroic!

Taylor did however save most of the people in that shelter by distracting Leviathan, it just took her a bit to get there and Leviathan was already there, wasn't her fault that she was a girl with bug control going up against a kaiju that can canonically move at supersonic speeds.

The Unicorn said:
I don't recall anything about that.

By the same logic there was nothing stating that the bathrooms were good either so it could go either way. Personally I say based on the narrative that Winslow is a shitty inner-city school that the bathrooms weren't exactly nice either.

The Unicorn said:
The computers might have been ancient(whatever that counts as for a teenager) but they were all connected to the internet with no restriction. That's quite a bit of money invested in them, even if the computers were several years old.

Considering the age of the computers I am gonna assume that the internet connection was installed with them before the boat graveyard was a thing and Brockton's economic down turn so around the 90s or something and they don't really reflect the current situation with the school.

The Unicorn said:
Ehh...not sure about that. Depending on the rules of the school it might not be possible for Gladly to do anything without Taylor speaking up.
Of course this gets to how impossible the way the school treated Taylor is, but that's a seperate issue.

Agreed there are stupid ass rules like that and even if someone spoke up it is very likely be brushed to the side. But at the same time he did see the bullying happen right in front of him and Taylor did make eye contact with him and he promptly did nothing. While that might not be a verbal cry for help it was a cry for him to do something regardless and I am pretty sure he would have been given a pass if the issue was quite literally in front of him.

So yeah the treatment of Taylor was impossible, but at the same time it happened because no one cared enough to stop it.

The Unicorn · Nov 12, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
Considering the trio by that point had pulled the locker and had a group of jocks chase Taylor with duct tape I would argue that them getting expelled would have been expected.

If Taylor had told anyone they were responsible for the Locker? Maybe. The school's actions in canon certainly make no sense, especially when you consider that Danny was trying to get her transfered to another school, which should have been the school district's fondest wish.

That is a very favorable interpretation of Gladly there and it was just as likely that he was too apathetic to actually stand up for Taylor.

True. Both of those are extreme interpretation and something in between the two is more reasonable.

By the same logic there was nothing stating that the bathrooms were good either so it could go either way.

My point is there wasn't anything about them that merited mentioning - they were neither filthy nor remarkably clean, neither incredibly worn down nor sparkling and new.

Considering the age of the computers I am gonna assume that the internet connection was installed with them before the boat graveyard was a thing and Brockton's economic down turn so around the 90s or something and they don't really reflect the current situation with the school.

First we don't actually know anything about the age of the computers, tailor describes them as being "ancient" which could mean anywhere from 2 years old and up.
Second, my point wasn't about the ethernet cards, which even in 2011 were a default part of the computer and you'd need to to specifically ask for them to be removed if you didn't want them. I was talking about the cost of paying for a trunk supporting all the data students would use. That's a monthly fee and would get pretty high if you allow unrestricted access as Winslow is shown to do.

Agreed there are stupid ass rules like that and even if someone spoke up it is very likely be brushed to the side. But at the same time he did see the bullying happen right in front of him and Taylor did make eye contact with him and he promptly did nothing. While that might not be a verbal cry for help it was a cry for him to do something regardless and I am pretty sure he would have been given a pass if the issue was quite literally in front of him.

If Taylor was willing to accuse her bullies? Possibly. However if he stops them, drage everyone to the principal...and Taylor refuses to say anything? He'd get a dressing down from his boss, waste a whole lot of his own time, and possibly get into trouble with the parents of the students he "falsely accused". While I agree he should have done something, I'm not sure he knew what to do, given Taylor repeatedly refused to name names.

Psiidmon · Nov 12, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
Taylor did however save most of the people in that shelter by distracting Leviathan, it just took her a bit to get there and Leviathan was already there, wasn't her fault that she was a girl with bug control going up against a kaiju that can canonically move at supersonic speeds.

Nah, not what happened - I came across this chapter because I was flabbergasted about the manhandling she got with a broken spine in a 're-read worm retrospective' thread (Lockers all the way down, a worm retrospective, on SB) and the bit with Gladly is utterly insane, complete with quotes from the actual work.

She thinks that Leviathan is comparable to her bullies, she explicitly leaves Gladly and the hundred other civilians in the shelter to die and thinks it 'a fitting justice', then changes her mind and grabs the halberd and stabs Levi in the ass. Leviathan is busy taking his time while Taylor has a 'heroic' moment in undoing her decision to leave people to die.

Naturally if we saw this without the running commentary in her head we could think she was a lot more heroic about things than she was.

KingCrimson1081 · Nov 12, 2023

Psiidmon said:
Nah, not what happened - I came across this chapter because I was flabbergasted about the manhandling she got with a broken spine in a 're-read worm retrospective' thread (Lockers all the way down, a worm retrospective, on SB) and the bit with Gladly is utterly insane, complete with quotes from the actual work.

She thinks that Leviathan is comparable to her bullies, she explicitly leaves Gladly and the hundred other civilians in the shelter to die and thinks it 'a fitting justice', then changes her mind and grabs the halberd and stabs Levi in the ass. Leviathan is busy taking his time while Taylor has a 'heroic' moment in undoing her decision to leave people to die.

Okay so I read the chapter you linked and I have to say the guy writing it obviously had some anti-Taylor bias. But besides that Taylor was mentioned as having been pressed against the door of the shelter while Leviathan went to town on the civilians, and remember Taylor's power is bug control there isn't shit she can do to Leviathan to make him stop and besides that Armsmaster's halberd is well outside of her grasp at that point so she can't use it just yet.

People ran back inside the shelter, screamed and pushed, trampled one another. I was forced into the corner by the door as they ran into the shelter, tried to make some distance between themselves and the Endbringer.

So yeah in that situation her best option would have been to retreat and call it in for better equipped combatants to handle, which she did, or else she would have just been a smear for Leviathan to step over. But by your logic what Taylor should have done was run towards the giant monster and sacrifice her life to buy the civilians the extra half second of life.

Sure her internal monologue is rather callous and cruel to Gladly but remember things concerning Winslow are a rather touchy subject for the traumatized teenager. It is heavily implied in Worm that parahumans rarely if ever truly move on from their triggers so it makes sense for Taylor to have those thoughts regarding one of the people who enabled her bullies.

But that isn't as important as what Taylor did next.

Which left me only one thing to do. I had to be better than Mr. Gladly.

Despite her own issues she decided to go save people once she managed to get weapon that would actually be able to effect Leviathan in a meaningful way. A weapon she would have needed to leave to retrieve anyways and Leviathan was already killing people at that point so I maintain Taylor did the best thing she could in her situation by not pointlessly throwing her life away.

Psiidmon said:
Naturally if we saw this without the running commentary in her head we could think she was a lot more heroic about things than she was.

Oh absolutely but that is a common thing with Taylor's character thinking one thing but doing another it doesn't make her actions any less heroic since as I stated before she got the halberd there wasn't anything meaningful she could do to stop Leviathan.

Megaolix · Nov 13, 2023

If you start bringing in another fic in that discussion, it's a sign the derail needs to end already.

Take it to the worm general discussion/idea or rant thread.

Rymu · Nov 13, 2023

So, in actual story discussion topics, what are the chances that Lily can use her potential as a hot subby asian gf to help Taylor handle her shitty situation?

The Unicorn · Nov 13, 2023

Rymu said:
So, in actual story discussion topics, what are the chances that Lily can use her potential as a hot subby asian gf to help Taylor handle her shitty situation?

Depends what you mean by help. The only way I'd see Taylor really accepting her emotional support is as a sub to Taylor's Dom. That won't do anything to help the situation overall, and will further isolate Taylor, and add more stuff for her to worry about with no outlet...

KingCrimson1081 · Nov 13, 2023

Rymu said:
So, in actual story discussion topics, what are the chances that Lily can use her potential as a hot subby asian gf to help Taylor handle her shitty situation?

I doubt Taylor would be open to having Lily as a girlfriend so long as she is a part of the Wards the girl at the moment is just to paranoid and would just assume this was another ploy from the PRT to manipulate her into working for them.

The Unicorn · Nov 13, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
I doubt Taylor would be open to having Lily as a girlfriend so long as she is a part of the Wards the girl at the moment is just to paranoid and would just assume this was another ploy from the PRT to manipulate her into working for them.

Not as any sort of equal, but if Lilly stops supporting the Wards and helps Taylor oppose them, Tay,or might come to see her as another of the PRT's victims and accept her as a follower.

Nikas_Zekeval · Nov 14, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
I doubt Taylor would be open to having Lily as a girlfriend so long as she is a part of the Wards the girl at the moment is just to paranoid and would just assume this was another ploy from the PRT to manipulate her into working for them.

The Unicorn said:
Not as any sort of equal, but if Lilly stops supporting the Wards and helps Taylor oppose them, Tay,or might come to see her as another of the PRT's victims and accept her as a follower.

Besides wary of a honey trap, even one going to the point of apparently opposing the Wards? It remains one of the oldest tricks in the book because it works so often.

Take if from someone bullied around the age Taylor is. It seriously damages your ability to trust, and makes you second guess social interactions and relationships. Taylor might have serious issues forming any relationships right now, given the amount of betrayal she's suffered, extending to both her father and Heroes of the Protectorate and Wards. Even without Lily's baggage from being a Ward? Taylor is going to spend a good time looking for the catch or waiting for the shoe to drop on even normal relationships for a good while.

Edit:
For all Armstrong's rightful worry about Taylor's trouble connecting with peers? His greed and narrow vision renders him unable to process that the Wards and Protectorate, any team not just his and Brockton's, are the people she is least likely to trust and connect with.

I wonder how many psychiatrists will tell him "You want Miss Hebert to heal? Then stop opening up her wounds again by poking them with your Wards and demands she takes up a role on the team."

The Unicorn · Nov 14, 2023

Nikas_Zekeval said:
Besides wary of a honey trap, even one going to the point of apparently opposing the Wards?

I didn't say she would be convinced in a day, but even then you hit on why I said Taylor would only accept Lilly as a follower and not an equal.

For all Armstrong's rightful worry about Taylor's trouble connecting with peers? His greed and narrow vision renders him unable to process that the Wards and Protectorate, any team not just his and Brockton's, are the people she is least likely to trust and connect with.

More accurately your trauma prevents you from seeing it isn't greed and narrow vision, but duty and obligations that restrain him.

I wonder how many psychiatrists will tell him "You want Miss Hebert to heal? Then stop opening up her wounds again by poking them with your Wards and demands she takes up a role on the team."

Any who tell him that will be told to come up with a solution that lets him do that.

Nikas_Zekeval · Nov 14, 2023

The Unicorn said:
More accurately your trauma prevents you from seeing it isn't greed and narrow vision, but duty and obligations that restrain him.

Naw, he even admits to himself that he's in it at least as much to understand Taylor's power. To the point of asking Watchdog for some non-consensual power testing by having them Think at her. And now he's in their doghouse because he can't feed their demand for MOAR without Taylor's cooperation. And he'll be in serious trouble if he ever has to admit to how Watchdog became so interested in her.

And his narrow vision is his conflating of Taylor's own good and her benefit being inextricably tied to her being an active Ward. Deciding "for her own good" he has to daily mash her trauma button. Like 'helping' someone get over their fear of spiders and the dark by locking them in a closet full of spiders, then turning off the light from the outside.

Rymu · Nov 14, 2023

At least Lily is predisposed to being a follower and bailing on the government, as well as being persuadable by Taylor should she get her confidence and charisma up, given the shit she gets up to in canon.

KingCrimson1081 · Nov 14, 2023

Nikas_Zekeval said:
I wonder how many psychiatrists will tell him "You want Miss Hebert to heal? Then stop opening up her wounds again by poking them with your Wards and demands she takes up a role on the team."

Unfortunately all the therapists he will talk to and treat Taylor are on his payroll and wouldn't dare say such a thing to his face.

The Unicorn said:
I didn't say she would be convinced in a day, but even then you hit on why I said Taylor would only accept Lilly as a follower and not an equal.

Still that is the grounds for a very unhealthy relationship between the two with Taylor reaching levels of checking her girlfriend's phone to make sure isn't talking to anyone she doesn't approve of because that is what it would probably take for Taylor to be convinced this isn't a long con of some kind.

Honestly Taylor is more likely to get with Lisa then she is to have a non-awkward conversation with her fellow Wards. Or at least panic and claim Lisa is her girlfriend when the other Wards start pestering her about her new friend.

Rymu · Nov 14, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
Or at least panic and claim Lisa is her girlfriend when the other Wards start pestering her about her new friend.

As much as I like the idea of rarepare Taylor/Lily with Taylor very much taking charge, this is too entertaining of a route for the common Smugbug.

Nikas_Zekeval · Nov 14, 2023

KingCrimson1081 said:
Honestly Taylor is more likely to get with Lisa then she is to have a non-awkward conversation with her fellow Wards. Or at least panic and claim Lisa is her girlfriend when the other Wards start pestering her about her new friend.

"Can you show me where in the regs Wards aren't allowed Non-Ward friends? Or is it just me that is forbidden that?"
"Why didn't I tell any of you about Lisa? Because I didn't want you Wards to drive this friend away from you like the last team did!"

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