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Spitfire Quest (Worm x D&D) - Character Creation & Mechanics Discussion

Discussion in 'Q&R Index' started by evildice, Apr 23, 2015.

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  1. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    How do we control or kill the Endbringers and kill Scion?
    Let us assume Endbringer's anti-power aura on the core won't work on us, because reasons of magic.
    The Endbringers are of the Construct type, which gives them a large list of immunities through that.

    How do we tank/dodge/be immune to the Golden Fuck You Beam?

    Of the canon Endbringers, Khonsu and Tohu are the most dangerous ones to us.
    Various energy immunities are easy to get, so Behemoth won't be that troublesome to survive,
    Leviathan, we just need a lot of HP, and the ability to breath underwater.
    Ziz, Mind-effecting immunity and lots of HP.
    Bohu, We are a Rogue.
    Tohu. We have no way to know what we need to prepare for, unless we know all 500,000ish parahumans that have ever lived.
    Khonsu, If we were a true dragon, Khonsu would be our best friend. But, we are not. I don't know of many abilities that negate time powers.
     
  2. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    You're good. Thanks!

    What appears different? The one on the character sheet ought to be the same other than including the effects of our -1 Strength.

    Yep!

    Yeah that one closed when I posted the full character sheet. I'll edit that in. Thanks!

    Charm Person: Skitter.

    This reduces the story to a solved problem and we win by induction.

    (I am joking: of course it won't be that easy.)
     
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  3. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    A sample build that probably won't ever be approved.
    Dragon Fire Adept 6/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 101/ DFA +2//Rogue 5/ Binder 22/Warblade 23//Swordsage 24/Fighter 25/Psychic Warrior 26/ Dragon Shaman 17/Factotum 38/Something 19

    Feats:
    3: Iron Will
    6: Spell Focus( Evil)
    9 Leadership
    12: Something
    15:Something
    18: Something.
    Skill will need to be retrained.


    1. Sadly there is no Dragon Fire Disciple theurge class, the warlock base one functions for the theurge aspect but it doesn't grant much in the way of new abilities.
    2-9. The order that these are picked up in doesn't really matter, only that the effective Warblade level is high enough to get IHS.
    2. This gets us Naberius, Suppress Sign, and 1 Pact augmentation. Naberius is the vestige that any social spec'd character wants to have.
    3. Good for HP and a few niche abilities, but the main factor is picking up Iron Heart Surge. Iron Heart Surge should be able to negate Khonsu's time field.
    4. Grab some of the Shadow Hand, for Shadow Jaunt, and gives us some +AC.
    5. Some Fighter bonus feats couldn't hurt at this point.
    6.Even more fighter bonus feats.
    7. Need to pick up that Vigor aura eventually.
    8.For reasons.
    9. I have no clue what I am doing at this point.

    The Sorc/Wiz list has a several meta-breath spells, but I don't know how to incorporate them into a build.
    New Build:
    Dragonfire Adept 6/ Mindbender 1/ Dragonfire Adept +13//Rogue 5/Swordsage 3/Warblade 4/Swordsage +8
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015
  4. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    Yeah, not so much.

    In terms of build, one side of the Gestalt will be Dragonfire Adept 20.

    The other side will be some kind of skill monkey, preferably either non-magical or Sorcerer-based. Exemplar, Duelist, Evangelist, that sort of thing. I'm open to suggestion, but please stick to the spirit of "skill monkey".

    IMHO one level of Mindbender is skill-monkey related, and Mindsight is Dragon-related.

    IMHO most multi-class enabler PrCs like the Arcane Trickster are not valid in Gestalt.

    Exciting things and interesting times are planned for when we eventually go above level 20.
     
  5. Bailey Matutine

    Bailey Matutine (Verified Pooka)

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    So if we want magic, we should go with bard or a sorc sub-class?

    Wow, I guess we should have put that 15 in Cha when we had the chance.
     
  6. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    So, a while back I asked for opinions on whether magic and parahuman powers ought to interact -- if you ought to be able to use Dispel Magic in order to make Rune drop that car, or to banish the Siberian, or the like.

    I only got one opinion back, so now I'm soliciting for more opinions.

    The big thing is, if we're an OCP to Worm powers, that seems to imply that Worm powers are an OCP to us. Do we get a Fort save against Bonesaw's shady new plague? Does our immunity to Sleep matter against Armsmaster's Tinkertech tranquilizer?

    The only downside that I see to Magic=Powers is that a power-suppression cape like Hatchet Face would act as an Anti-Magic Field... but he's just one guy, and if we can fly, we can stay the heck away from him.

    Basically, it seems to me that the upside of Magic=Powers is huge -- we can get at-will Detect Parahuman, we can get the ability to cast NOPE at-will, and if we get a defense against [Compulsions], we know it'll apply to jerks like Cherish -- and the downside is tiny: either we stay the fuck away from Hatchet Face, or kill him with mundane attacks, which we can probably do with a flanking buddy or two.

    So... what am I missing? Is it actually a better idea to be an OCP, and face OCP capes? Or is it a better idea to make them play in our system?

    Thanks!
     
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  7. Bailey Matutine

    Bailey Matutine (Verified Pooka)

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    If we were anything other than a warlock/dragon hybrid, I'd say OCP was the way to go. But we are, and a big portion of what makes them good is playing other people's games better than them in a narrow margin. If powers aren't magic, our abilities should be shard-based.

    Also, there's an invocation later on that lets you steal active effects.
     
  8. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    We're not shard-based. The question is only about interaction. Magic and Psionics are from different sources, but under the base game rules, they interact in compatible ways: Dispel Magic works on Psi powers, and vice-versa.

    Being able to interact doesn't mean you have to share a source.

    I think that's for Warlocks, unless you mean something other than the one I'm remembering.
     
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  9. Bailey Matutine

    Bailey Matutine (Verified Pooka)

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    Okay. I'm still voting for compatibility. And I'm adding to the list of things I'd like to retrain at level 5, because I for one wrote my skill list under the assumption that they WEREN'T compatible, because that was the declaration at the time.

    I thought they shared an invocation list? I had been under the impression that only the blast shape/essence and breath effect invocations were distinct to each class.
     
  10. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    They have separate Invocation lists in the Dragon Magic book.

    What makes you think they share a list?
     
  11. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    Fort/Ref/Will saves don't care what type of source the power is. A Fort save defends agaisnt a sentient plague, a magic disease, or an infection from a cut equally.

    Since we are stuck with DFA 20//Skill Monkey, I am changing my opinion to be for transparency.
    Would that mean the Identify spell would work on Tinkertech?

    So Skill Monkey Classes: Rogue, Psyhic Rogue, Factotum, Bard, Swordsage, Beguiler, Binder, Monk, Spell-Theif1, Incarnate?
    PrCs:Trapsmith, Uncanny Trickster, Dungeon Devler, Urban Savant,

    1.How would this interact with powers if transparency is in effect?

    No, Warlock and DFA's have separate list, like how Sorcerers and Warmages have separate lists.
     
  12. Bailey Matutine

    Bailey Matutine (Verified Pooka)

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    Ideally, when we retrain, I'd like to turn our rogue level into a factotum level. I'd also like to go into Factotum right now at second level. And I don't remember why I thought they shared a list.

    Factotum is a class I wouldn't mind bringing all the way to level 20.
     
  13. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    You mean Factotum 19, since the 20th level doesn't give you anything of importance.

    Depending on how Spell-Thief works(and if the Arcane Tricksters ACF would be approved) that could be a really useful class for the setting. It isn't all that good from a standard game, but it becomes a lot more useful in this setting.
     
  14. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    Changed vote counted, thanks.

    Tinkertech: I think yes, though this is a thing we ought to discuss for potential abuse.

    It certainly won't allow us to maintain Tinkertech.

    I'm meh on Bard. The red linethrough ones are just plain "no".

    I don't know most of those PrCs, can you list source books?

    Not sure, but the class itself isn't a good fit for this game, so it's academic.

    No.
     
  15. Bailey Matutine

    Bailey Matutine (Verified Pooka)

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    Pure rogue it is then.
     
  16. Xilph

    Xilph Well worn.

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    Personally I'd go more towards arguing against Identify working on tinkertech, it identifies the magic of items, if assumed to be equal to powers it shouldn't work on most tinkertech as it has no actual powers behind it's functioning, just it's creation. Kind like using magic to boost yourself during crafting and could it identify that? That said there are the occasional tinker it should work on, Dauntless for instance should have their gear noticed by it, Trainwreck for another possibility as their power is a part of how they function, although that's more questionable. Generally though I'd say it doesn't make sense to have it work on tinkertech, I mean it can't identify D20 Modern stuff and the amount of tech advancement over the normal DnD stuff isn't that different to tinkertech over modern tech for the most part.
     
  17. Sheaman3773

    Sheaman3773 (Unverified Writer)

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    Just for clarity's sake, Hatchet Face shuts down parahumans in range, not powers. We could totally kill him with our special abilities if we're far enough away. If they can overcome his Brute power.

    You may well have remembered that, but I wasn't sure from your phrasing.
    Uh...that's not how I thought the OCP (even when mutual) was going to work.

    If that's the case, then I say let us affect each other. Affecting powers is Trump, and only a subsection of trump at that, and they're the least common of powers.

    Do I appear to be understanding this correctly?
     
  18. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    That makes a lot of sense.

    In that case, perhaps instead of Tinkertech, the identify effect works on a Parahuman, and identifies that person's powers.

    So maybe the detect magic part works to make active powers visible, and the identify effect works to reveal the details, like a Touch-range power-limited Tattletale.

    You are correct. However, our powers are all short-range, so it's moot. Thus my phrasing: technically we can breathe fire 30 ft. into his anti-power zone, but practically speaking his anti-power zone extends farther than 30 ft.

    Yeah, I think so.

    The thing about Worm powers is that some of them are absolute, and they work by explicitly incompatible mechanics. Like, a magic spell tries to implant a suggestion, but at the same time Panacea is touching you and she has total control over your brain structure. How do those effects interact?

    If we're using transparency, then we can do stuff like have a caster-level roll-off.
     
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  19. Xilph

    Xilph Well worn.

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    You could I suppose, although Identify is for items. You could do an extension to Detect Magic I suppose, it is capable of providing info such as strength and location with more time in it and what school of magic stuff are with a spellcraft check so that at least should be able to be easily made to at least detect ratings. Specific mechanics of the powers is more complex, while identify does do what you want it only works on items so you'd need to just decide it works on parahumans as it's definitely not RaW, unless you're arguing it's sensing the shards as items in which case it might work but you could make a good argument for shards qualifying as artifacts in that case and it opens up a huge can of worms I'm sure.

    So maybe just knowing all the details for someones power within seconds isn't feasible, although apparently Identify has a casting time of an hour unless we've got something I missed so you could probably have it give all the details. It's not like it's at all useful for combat after all if we need uninterrupted contact for an hour to use it, Kid Win would be happy at least if we can tell them their specialty. Detect magic being able to provide a rating for people if we meet a check with twenty seconds of work would be useful in combat though as long as we're part of a team, particularly as it targets everyone in it's effect so we can use it on entire teams at once.
     
  20. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    Yeah, it'd be a setting-adaptation which works differently because the setting is inherently different. Instead of people having stable, well-known powers which you can learn, people in Worm each have unique powers which you've never seen before. Instead of items being empowered by magic, items are all mundane and boring.

    The Invocation changes that explicitly to a single full-round action. The book is Dragon Magic, page 81.
     
  21. Sheaman3773

    Sheaman3773 (Unverified Writer)

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    Oh, does it? I don't remember us knowing a set range. There was a scene with Grue channeling it, and with Tyrant, which was Hatchet Face mixed with King, but I don't remember details.

    Thanks for the clarification. Do you have a cite handy that I could write down?
    Hm...

    And using transparency is coupled with removing the OCP-status? Sorry, I searched the thread and didn't see any explanation for it. If it's a D&D term, then sorry again--I played a fair amount, even GM'd for a (very) short period, but my group moved on to new tabletops and I haven't had a chance to play it in years. Internet searches also turned up nothing.
    *waits to be told it was something obvious overlooked*

    It's our Dragonfire Adept level that counts towards our caster-level, right?


    I forgot to say:
    That was what I didn't factor in, thanks.


    edit:
    Oh, and OCP-ness would affect Endbringers too, I forgot to consider. And it means (for instance) Lung will have resistance to us, at the same we have resistances to them. Hm.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  22. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    You said skill monkey, so I listed a group of base classes that were skill monkeys or have that as a secondary roll.
    You response was no for all but 1 of them.
    You basically said that you wanted rectangles, then only allowed red squares and blue squares and weren't sure on the blue one.
    Can you just say what is allowed then, instead of me searching around for things that meet that initial criteria, but turns out not what you wanted at all?


    The Prestige classes are:
    Trapsmith: Dungeonscape pg 53
    Urban Savant: Cityscape pg 100
    Dungeon Delver, Complete Adventurer pg 43
    Uncanny Trickster, Complete Scoundrel pg 67
     
  23. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    Grue's darkness out-ranged Tyrant, just like Cherish's power out-ranged Hatchet Face. I don't have a cite, but I might be able to track one down. It's true that Emily won't know anything about HF at this time.

    I think you are saying that HF is not an anti-Magic field, he's more like an anti-Casting field. Spells work, you just can't cast near him. Is that correct? Because I think that's a good point.

    "OCP" = Out of Context Problem. "Transparency" is the term which the Psionics rules used to mean that Psi and Magic treated each other as equivalent for stuff like Dispel Magic. I'm hijacking the term because it's pretty good, sorry for not explaining it fully. Basically I'm using "transparency" to mean that neither we nor shards are OCP to each other.

    With Transparency, Contessa can fully predict our current powers -- but every time we level up, her predictions will be thrown off, just like a fresh trigger would. Dinah would be the same.

    Yes, for Invocations like the Dispel Magic one, that's right. So we'll be getting better at winning those rolls over time.

    I think Lung would have Fire immunity either way. It's not like Fire is some strange exotic effect.

    Endbringers will be incredibly tough targets either way.

    - - -

    I'm not asking for builds. I'm not asking you to design a character who is optimal based on some fixed criteria.

    I am open to ideas and advice, but I need the mechanical stuff to adhere to the spirit as well as the letter of the character. In that interest, I'm trying to describe the spirit of the character. Rules-lawyering around the spirit of the character is not welcome.

    When the character was posted, people asked "Can we replace Rogue?" -- that's not me asking for help, that's you trying to change something already established.

    When I said "skill monkey", that's part of what she is. But it's not the only part. I'm not laying down a few abstract rules and asking for optimization abuse within those bounds. That's also fun, and I used to post on CharOp myself, but it's not what this Quest is about.

    Thanks, I'll give them a look.
     
  24. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    The Endbringers and Scion are like something from the Immortals Handbook( including both authors have no sense of scale).
    They are very few ways to deal with creature like that pre-epic.
    A horde of true dragons that have transported back in time with the epic spell Teleport Through Time, could work. The dragons would be the descendants of Emily, and thus would be a predestination paradox. But, magic doesn't care about paradoxes.

    Once epic magic gets involved then things like this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html is perfectly valid.

    If we don't have a way to deal with Scion, then every orphan we bond with, every friend we make, every person we might save, will die horribly when Scion decides to fuck it all.

    If you have something already planned for dealing with Scion problem, fine. Then I can focus on dealing with street-level problems and idea that fit that concept.
     
  25. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    In canon, Spitfire was not a part of the Scion solution.

    This is not canon, of course, so it's reasonable to assume either:
    - Yes, I have a way to deal with Scion in place; or
    - No, Scion won't be the BBEG for this Quest.
     
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  26. Sheaman3773

    Sheaman3773 (Unverified Writer)

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    /nod Yes, that is what I'm saying.
    Aha! Okay, thanks.

    Funny, I wonder why that didn't turn up in my searches. I must not have been comprehensive enough.
    Do we not channel the essence of dragonfire itself!?
    Fair point.
     
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  27. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    Dragonfire is just Fire-type damage, So unless that is a Searing Spell [Metamagic, Sandstorm] equivalent for breath weapons, fire immunity protects against it perfectly fine.
     
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  28. The Shadowmind

    The Shadowmind Well worn.

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    There is a Rogue/dragon flavoring prestige class in Dragon Magic, class Hands of the Winged Masters.

    Also the Dragon Devotee prestige class in Races of the Dragons.

    Edit:Found the Hoardstealer prc from Draconomicon. pg 130
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  29. evildice

    evildice (Verified d4)

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    Yeah, it's basically a slower Sneak Attack progression, plus some free Draconic feats. Might be a good fit.

    Dragon Devotee is weird. I feel like it's got too much overlap with the Dragonfire Adept, and too many of its features are obviated by DFA (e.g. 1d3 damage claws vs. Humanoid Shape).

    It looks like a really interesting class for someone who isn't a DFA, and who wants the Draconic template for other stuff. Also like an interesting class to interweave with a half-caster progression PrC on the other side, so you end up a Sorc 20 plus perks.

    Not a good fit for this character, but a very interesting toolkit.
     
  30. Minion #Q

    Minion #Q Experienced.

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    [X] L2: Breath Effect: Frost Breath (deal breath damage as Cold; cone only).
    [X] L2: Ability: +1 Dex
    [X] L2: Ability: +1 Con
    [X] L2: Skills: Max out synergy (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Kn:Streetwise), buy 5 ranks of Open Locks. Last two points where?
    [X]2 points of Stealth
     
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