Spitfire Quest (Worm x D&D) - Character Creation & Mechanics Discussion

[Guile]

By the time we even have flight, we can already have four draconic feats. By the time we have that whole set, we've got six of them. Every draconic feat you get makes every other draconic feat better. We can get AC out of this, we can get improved senses out of this, we can get natural weapons out of this; there are a ton of different draconic feats.

Three feats adding up to one ability where we can set everything on fire would come out to just barely worth it... if we didn't care about destroying the city.

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Well yes, that can be a problem. Thankfully, DFAs also get the option for breaths that hit in a line, which with the Strafing Breath feat turns it into a consistent laser. Much more manageable. There's also... Shape Breath, I think it is? Freely alter the breath attack into curly-cues or whatever.

The draconic feats are okay, but Invocations mostly do that but better (Voidsense is superior to even the 4+ Draconic Senses, etc.), and that leaves more feats for... whatever. Two Weapon Fighting. Defensive Martial Arts. Stuff.

The better draconic feats seem to require Sorcerer lvl 1st, which evildice has said we can't acquire.

 

[The Shadowmind]

Well yes, that can be a problem. Thankfully, DFAs also get the option for breaths that hit in a line, which with the Strafing Breath feat turns it into a consistent laser. Much more manageable. There's also... Shape Breath, I think it is? Freely alter the breath attack into curly-cues or whatever.

The draconic feats are okay, but Invocations mostly do that but better (Voidsense is superior to even the 4+ Draconic Senses, etc.), and that leaves more feats for... whatever. Two Weapon Fighting. Defensive Martial Arts. Stuff.

The better draconic feats seem to require Sorcerer lvl 1st, which evildice has said we can't acquire.

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The dragontouched feat we have lets us count as a sorcerer of our character level for draconic feats. The problem is that we don't have arcane spells, we have spell-like abilities which are explicitly called out as not being spells and not counting as spells for draconic feats.

 

[evildice]

Incorporating Bailey's proposal, the stats I get are:

Str: 8
Dex: 12
Con: 15
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 13

If there are no objections, I'll go with those, and then use the votes and builds to parcel out our 44 skill points.

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Nobody seems to object to using Pathfinder-style consolidated skills (Acrobatics / Athletics / Perception / Stealth). If there are no objections in the next few hours, I'll go with that, and update the skill list on the OP character sheet.

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All that said, let's not lose sight of the actual content of the quest for the feats, huh? Orphanage brats and caretakers, that sort of thing.

For example, what about this guy as a fellow orphanage kid-taking-care-of-the-little-kids? Yuu Akiyama.

Having a partner in crime early on would be fun. We could use a henchman. Also, look at that midriff!

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Neat, but I don't recognize those guys. Can you tell me a bit about their personalities?

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Regarding Feats, what I need right now is basically just enough for level 1, but the thing is that our choices imply a larger plan and we should be roughly on the same page about that. How about this: let's go with something for now, and then around level 5 (when we hit a decent break in the plot) we'll talk about retraining.

From the previous discussion, I think the popular choices were:
L1: Entangling Exhalation
L1: ???
L3: Draconic Aura (Vigor)
L6: ???

Looking over the [Draconic] feats, it really feels like DFAs were left out in the cold, which is sad because we're so full of fire. Still, I feel like Draconic Senses is solid, since Low-Light Vision is great in a light-polluting urban environment.

So, shall we vote on the other L1 feat?

[_] L1: Draconic Senses (low-light vision; bonus to Spot, Listen and Search)
[_] L1: Improved Initiative (Fighter bonus)
[_] L1: Magical Training (learn 2 cantrips, cast 3/day as Sorcerer)
[_] L1: Quickdraw ("where's my knife / grenade / flashbang / taser?"; Fighter bonus)
[_] L1: Darkstalker (from Lords of Madness; you can fool stuff like motion detectors and scent with Stealth)
[_] L1: Power Surge (set-up for Metabreath feats)
[_] L1: Improved Unarmed Strike (to later get Deflect Arrow, which works on bullets)

 

[tEN]

If we're not focusing on dragon feats, I don't want any. Let's go with improved initiative if people just have to have their entangling exhalation.

 

[tEN]

Actually, scrap Improved Initiative. I want Investigate from page 55 of the Eberron book. New uses for skills are always handy.

 

[evildice]

Actually, scrap Improved Initiative. I want Investigate from page 55 of the Eberron book. New uses for skills are always handy.

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IMHO Search already did what that feat claims to add.

So you get that for free if you take Search ranks.

Yay!

 

[evildice]

Okay. I took every skill that at least two people chose, and was able to fit all of them into our 11 initial skill choices. I've updated the character sheet in the first thread to reflect these skill choices.

Please look over the character sheet and let me know if I've screwed anything up. (I tried to show my work.)

Mechanics discussion can stay in this thread. I expect us to have an opportunity to retrain / rebuild the character around level 5, so the choices here aren't necessarily final, and we may revise how we value our choices after playing in the setting for a while.

The quest itself is ready to begin!

Quest thread here, first vote is up: https://forum.questionablequesting.com/threads/spitfire-quest-worm-x-d-d-quest-thread-1.1464/

 

[tEN]

I've updated the sheet I made to reflect the choices you expressed on the first page. I put the local points in streetwise, and I put the gather info points in linguistics, as we are using pathfinder skills with modern knowledges. Please let me know if the language choices I made look good to everyone else?

I really would have preferred draconic knowledge over beguiling influence as our first invocation, because holy shit can you get mileage out of knowledges in d20 modern, while getting a master rating at an early level is going to get everyone out for our head, but I guess there's not much I can do about it now, and I didn't look too closely at the other builds because I didn't think anybody would actually WANT to net themselves a master rating.

 

[tEN]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZHEmH-8VzyknjlloZEMODzceRFHSR1LAUeeRqWjwCVw/edit#gid=19

 

[tEN]

Gather Info doesn't actually do anything. Why did two different people select it?

 

[tEN]

I looked again. Only one person explicitly wanted Gather Info. Other people wanted "perception skills" from the vote option, which included Gather Info.

6:27 AM <@BaileyCat> evildice
6:27 AM <+evildice> BaileyCat
6:27 AM <@BaileyCat> Updated the sheet that used to be my vote.
6:27 AM <@Cassiemouse> I don't think I am going to be able to plan much.
6:27 AM <+evildice> Cool
6:27 AM <@BaileyCat> I corrected errors to what I thought you meant.
6:27 AM <@Cassiemouse> I should just discovery write all sorts of things.
6:27 AM <@BaileyCat> And selected four additional languages as a result.
6:27 AM <+evildice> I put the correct character sheet in the OP of the mechanics thread
6:28 AM <@BaileyCat> If it were correct it would not have K(Local) or Gather Info.
6:28 AM <+evildice> Gather Info isn't a D&D skill?
6:28 AM <@BaileyCat> I put those points in K(Streetwise) and Linguistics.
6:28 AM <@BaileyCat> You said we were doing the pathfinder thing.
6:29 AM <@BaileyCat> Gather Info is part of Diplomacy.
6:29 AM <+Robo_Jesus> http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=23877475
6:29 AM <+Robo_Jesus> heh
6:29 AM <+evildice> I said we were doing Acrobatics, Athletics, Perception and Stealth.
6:29 AM <+evildice> That's not exactly Pathfinder.
6:29 AM <@BaileyCat> There's an Athletics?
6:30 AM <+evildice> Yup.
6:30 AM <@Cassiemouse> You should console me with sage advice, TotalAbsolutism.
6:30 AM <+TotalAbsolutism> Just do it, and don't stop.
6:31 AM <@BaileyCat> I'm going back and reading it. I asked if we could use pathfinder versions. You agreed and said we could use those four skills. I assumed you said "athletics" by mistake.
6:32 AM <+evildice> Nope, not a mistake.
6:32 AM <+evildice> Also, other assumptions not correct.
6:32 AM <@BaileyCat> Alright, what goes into Athletics?
6:33 AM <@BaileyCat> And which knowledge do you want those points in?
6:33 AM <+evildice> https://forum.questionablequesting....character-creation-mechanics-discussion.1439/ <— house rules box
6:33 AM <+evildice> Knowledge(local) == Knowledge(streetwise)
6:34 AM <@BaileyCat> You say Perception "as pathfinder" and leave out search. Which is correct?
6:34 AM <+Dreadis> athletics *sounds* like Climb+Ride+Swim
6:35 AM <+evildice> Stealth = Hide & Move Silently; Perception = Spot & Listen
6:35 AM <+evildice> Search is separate.
6:35 AM <+Dreadis> no its not
6:35 AM <@BaileyCat> Okay, so ALMOST like Pathfinder.
6:35 AM <+Dreadis> search is part of perception
6:35 AM <+evildice> In Pathfinder it is not; in this game it is.
6:35 AM <+Dreadis> in pathfinder
6:35 AM <+evildice> Apparently in Pathfinder it can't be used to find clues for an investigation or something.
6:36 AM <+evildice> Or something.
6:36 AM <@BaileyCat> See, the massive confusion here is that we asked if we could use Pathfinder skills, you agreed, and then changed everything around to something different.
6:36 AM <@BaileyCat> Perception can be used for everything Search is used for in 3.5
6:37 AM <+evildice> Actually what you (singular, not plural) asked for is to not need to spend a thousand different skills to not fall on your ass.
6:37 AM <@BaileyCat> Eberron, a 3.5 setting, has a feat where you use search to find clues.
6:37 AM <+evildice> Right, that's the feat you had wanted.
6:37 AM <+evildice> Which I think Search already does.
6:37 AM <+evildice> Without the need for a feat.
6:38 AM <@BaileyCat> Also, can we please use the pathfinder versions of skills? Blowing a third of our skill points in "being able to notice things" another third in "not falling over on our ass" and the last third on "talk to people" doesn't leave anything left over for fun stuff like "speak more languages," "know how much stuff is worth," and "make legit money."
6:38 AM <@BaileyCat> That's what I said.
6:38 AM <+evildice> Well, you got part of what you asked for.
6:38 AM <+evildice> But not all of it.
6:39 AM <@BaileyCat> Right but I was confused because you agreed and then did something different.
6:39 AM <@BaileyCat> You combined climb/swim/jump and left gather info and search separate.
6:39 AM <+evildice> Nobody seems to object to using Pathfinder-style consolidated skills (Acrobatics / Athletics / Perception / Stealth). If there are no objections in the next few hours, I'll go with that, and update the skill list on the OP character sheet.
6:39 AM <+evildice> https://forum.questionablequesting....-mechanics-discussion.1439/page-3#post-290669
6:40 AM <+evildice> "Pathfinder-style consolidated" is what I said.
6:40 AM <+evildice> "Literally the exact same everything as Pathfinder" is what you wanted and what you assumed.
6:40 AM <@BaileyCat> I'm not objecting to Athletics. I'm just confused by your decisions with gather info and search in not folding them into diplomacy and perception.
6:41 AM <+evildice> Diplomacy is already really strong.
6:41 AM <+evildice> Perception is also really, really strong.
6:41 AM <+evildice> I don't actually think merging a (Wis) skill with an (Int) skill is a good idea.
6:42 AM <@BaileyCat> Is skill synergy still a thing for you?
6:42 AM <+evildice> You mean the competence bonus at 5 ranks?
6:42 AM <@BaileyCat> Also, gather info was folded into diplomacy because it is literally useless except to get rid of roleplaying.
6:42 AM <@BaileyCat> Yeah, at 5 ranks.
6:43 AM <@BaileyCat> Everything gather info does can be done by roleplaying and diplomacy checks.
6:43 AM <+evildice> Well, in this game, there will be less role-playing on the player's part because you only give me broad direction.
6:43 AM <+evildice> The ranks tell me how the choice plays out.
6:44 AM <+evildice> (Well, the roll tells me how, the ranks tell you what your good options are.)
6:44 AM <@BaileyCat> Also, gather info is hilariously bad for a superhero.
6:44 AM <@BaileyCat> Like, the way we're built now, we are designed to expose our mcivilian identity as a master and get shot.
6:45 AM <+evildice> Step 1: Diplomacy or Bluff your way out of getting shot.
6:45 AM <+Aleh> Aaaand update posted on my thread.
6:45 AM <@BaileyCat> This fails due to master-stranger protocols.
6:45 AM <@BaileyCat> Step 1 should instead be "somehow know that there is a capture order out on you."
6:46 AM <@BaileyCat> Step 2 is dodge the tranq sniper.
6:46 AM <+evildice> I think you're looking to create problems where none yet exist.
6:47 AM <+evildice> Unless she tries to talk into PRT HQ (and succeeds), she's not going to get master / stranger protocol'd.
6:47 AM <@BaileyCat> I am looking for problems that already exist because the sheet was made by collaboration between five different people who didn't actually talk to each other, some of whom didn't think through the reality of living in Brockton Bay.
6:47 AM <+evildice> Well, you can distrust me, but you can't talk me into distrusting me.
6:47 AM <+evildice> Not with your current Diplomacy ranks.
6:48 AM <@BaileyCat> I am looking for one of two things. A solution to the hilariously bad character build, or your explicit word that you're going to handwave those problems because making the outcomes realistic isn't funny.
6:49 AM <+evildice> Post these problems in the mechanics thread, please.
6:50 AM <+evildice> I can't promise anything based on what you've said here, except that I don't foresee master/stranger being relevant in the near future.

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Please read through this log.

 

[evildice]

Gather Info doesn't actually do anything. Why did two different people select it?

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1/ What it does is represent the character's ability to get specific information out of non-specific people ("crowdsource the info"). It's about steering conversations and joining groups without drawing attention to yourself.

2/ Presumably because they've used it in games? Dunno.

 

[tEN]

1/ What it does is represent the character's ability to get specific information out of non-specific people ("crowdsource the info"). It's about steering conversations and joining groups without drawing attention to yourself.

2/ Presumably because they've used it in games? Dunno.

Click to shrink...

I looked again. One person selected it. Two other people selected larger blocks that you had put gather info in.

Everybody who made a plan asked for Draconic Knowledge. The two people who made two plans said beguiling influence could theoretically work. So we have four draconic knowledge plans and two beguiling influence plans and influence wins? Did it cheat because it has its own diplomacy score?



Like, if you're just going to use us as a sounding board and then do your own thing, that's fine. But don't call it a vote and ignore the results.

 

[evildice]

It's my mistake.

I'm sorry, everyone, if you had not wanted Beguiling Influence.

But I've based the first few chapters on the idea that we have the abilities listed on the current character sheet (the one in the OP), so please be patient and let's play with what we've got until level 3, when we'll get another Invocation.

 

[evildice]

Level 2 Voting
CLOSED​

Level 2 is coming HERE!

When we get to level 2, we'll have three choices to make.

Choose ONE of these:
[_] L2: Breath Effect: Frost Breath (deal breath damage as Cold; cone only).
[_] L2: Breath Effect: Lightning Breath (deal breath damage as Electricity; line only).
[_] L2: Breath Effect: Sickening Breath (no damage; targets are Sickened for 2 turns, Fort reduces to 1 turn; cone only).

... and choose TWO of the following:
[_] L2: Ability: +1 Str
[_] L2: Ability: +1 Dex
[_] L2: Ability: +1 Con
[_] L2: Ability: +1 Int
[_] L2: Ability: +1 Wis
[_] L2: Ability: +1 Cha

... and choose ONE of the following:
[_] L2: Skills: +1 to all current skills (Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Gather Info, Kn:Streetwise, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth)
[_] L2: Skills: Max out synergy (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Kn:Streetwise), buy 5 ranks of Open Locks. Last two points where?
[_] L2: Skills: Max out synergy (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Kn:Streetwise), buy 5 ranks of Intimidate. Last two points where?
[_] L2: Skills: Max out synergy (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Kn:Streetwise), buy 5 ranks of Forgery. Last two points where?
[_] L2: Skills: Max out synergy (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Kn:Streetwise), buy 5 ranks of Athletics. Last two points where?
[_] L2: Skills: Special Snowflake (write in what to do with our 11 skill points).

 

[Larekko12]

We've got fire breath? So. Shock breath. For the Bots

[X] L2: Breath Effect: Lightning Breath (deal breath damage as Electricity; line only).
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Int
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Cha

 

[evildice]

We've got fire breath? So. Shock breath. For the Bots

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Yeah, fire is the default for a Dragonfire Adept. And just FYI, the breath weapon's save DC is based on Con, not Cha. I'll add that up on the character sheet.
(Cha is still great, but I wanted to put that out there.)

Also: I think skill points are NOT retroactive.

 

[tEN]

[X] L2: Breath Effect: Lightning Breath (deal breath damage as Electricity; line only).
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Cha
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Con
[X] L2: Skills: Max out synergy (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Kn:Streetwise), buy 5 ranks of Open Locks. Last two points in Forgery
[X] L2: Heritage: Bronze Dragon

 

[Jon Irenicus]

[X] L2: Breath Effect: Lightning Breath (deal breath damage as Electricity; line only).
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Int
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Cha

 

[evildice]

The Level 2 vote will close when we hit level 2.

One thing we might want to brainstorm & discuss: Equipment.

I've updated the character sheet to include our breath weapon and our available combat options -- which currently suck. We currently have:
- Weak Girly Fists. We are an untrained teen girl and we don't hit hard or well.
- Improvised Sap. We have a small sock full of sand and pennies, reinforced with a leather shoe insert and some cable ties. -1 to attack, 1d4 subdual (instead of 1d6 subdual).

 

[Larekko12]

Hit a Hardware Store. Buy Tools? Steal tools? Befriend Sophia get crossbows. Give Targets?

 

[tEN]

To the two people NOT voting for Con: This stat controls our primary damage dealing ability, AND how tough we are. Every time we pass up boosting Con is a time I think everyone else is crazy.

 

[The Shadowmind]

[X] L2: Breath Effect: Lightning Breath (deal breath damage as Electricity; line only).
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Cha
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Con

[X] L2: Skills: +1 to all current skills (Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Gather Info, Kn:Streetwise, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth)

 

[evildice]

We should also vote on skills.

I've edited the vote announcement. Please edit your posts to include a skill choice if you posted above.

Thanks!

PS: Also, I've edited the skill list on the character sheet to reflect what I think the final merged d20 Modern / D&D skill list ought to be. Let me know if you see anything that might be an error.

 

[The Shadowmind]

We should also vote on skills.

I've edited the vote announcement. Please edit your posts to include a skill choice if you posted above.

Thanks!

PS: Also, I've edited the skill list on the character sheet to reflect what I think the final merged d20 Modern / D&D skill list ought to be. Let me know if you see anything that might be an error.

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You probably should of just make the skills and abilities two separate votes.

 

[evildice]

You probably should of just make the skills and abilities two separate votes.

Click to shrink...

Both votes ought to remain open until we hit 2nd level, and then both ought to close, at the same time.

The vote-counting program will not behave correctly if two votes are stacked on top of each other.

So the best solution IMHO is a single vote.

 

[The Shadowmind]

Both votes ought to remain open until we hit 2nd level, and then both ought to close, at the same time.

The vote-counting program will not behave correctly if two votes are stacked on top of each other.

So the best solution IMHO is a single vote.

Click to shrink...

The D&D tag for the quest is broken.

 

[tEN]

Let's be Bronze.

 

[Jack of Olives]

Stupid RL, getting in the way of my QQ time.

[X] L2: Breath Effect: Frost Breath (deal breath damage as Cold; cone only).

[X] L2: Ability: +1 Con
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Cha

[X] L2: Skills: +1 to all current skills (Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Gather Info, Kn:Streetwise, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth)

Edit: Hm... I may be a bit late.

 

[Sheaman3773]

- Makeshift sap -2 (nonlethal; 1d4 -1; 20/x2; +1d6 sneak attack)

Click to shrink...

- Improvised Sap. We have a small sock full of sand and pennies, reinforced with a leather shoe insert and some cable ties. -1 to attack, 1d4 subdual (instead of 1d6 subdual).

Click to shrink...

These appear to be different--are they supposed to be?


I think these are right?
[X] L2: Breath Effect: Lightning Breath (deal breath damage as Electricity; line only).
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Cha
[X] L2: Ability: +1 Con
[X] L2: Skills: Max out synergy (Acrobatics, Bluff, Sense Motive, Kn:Streetwise), buy 5 ranks of Open Locks. Last two points in Intimidate.

Edit: Hm... I may be a bit late.

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No, it seems they stay open until Lvl 2, and we're not that yet, so I think you/we're good.

Also, is the below vote still open? I feel like I'm missing something >.>

Pick one, two or three: (basic character goals)
[_] Stealth is important. Dexterity, and skills like Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen.
[_] Perception is important. Wisdom, and skills like Spot, Listen, Search, Gather Information, and Sense Motive.
[_] Social stuff is important. Charisma, and skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive.
[_] Physical grace is important. Dexterity, and skills like Tumble, Jump, Balance, and Escape Artist.
[_] Knowledge is power. Intelligence, and skills like Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), and Sense Motive.
[_] Larceny is my thing. Dexterity, and skills like Sleight of Hand, Open Locks, and Disable Device.
[_] I am the mask. Charisma, and skills like Bluff, Perform (Acting), Disguise, and Forgery.
[_] This one time, at nature camp? Wisdom, and skills like Knowledge (Nature), Handle Animal, Survival, and Swim.
[_] Powers are totes for homework. Intelligence, and skills like Diplomacy, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Geography), Perform (Oratory), Listen, and Concentration.

Pick one]: (feats and invocation)
[_] My secondary powers are covert; they can help me navigate day-to-day life.
[_] My secondary powers are covert; they help me perform acts of larceny.
[_] My secondary powers are overt (write-in how they help).

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