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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)
- Thread starter Mr Zoat
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Lord Ernest
At the End...
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I knew these guys were some fascists shits!
And, yeah, why is Interceptor horrified? She just described using Obsidian as a power suppressor system because the guy is unfortunately sick; she's on the same wavelength as her Commander.
I know the poor guy is dangerous, kinda like Legion, but the attempt should be made to help him or brainstorm ways to help him, not "well, he's convenient like this and if we don't tell anybody, then nobody can be mad about it".
Although now I'm curious why John is springing this confrontation now, what is it in aid of? I hope if he has a plan that the quality of his plans have at least improved from before, where they usually ranged from "fucked up" to "awful with probabilities of disaster" to "what plan?".
And, yeah, why is Interceptor horrified? She just described using Obsidian as a power suppressor system because the guy is unfortunately sick; she's on the same wavelength as her Commander.
I know the poor guy is dangerous, kinda like Legion, but the attempt should be made to help him or brainstorm ways to help him, not "well, he's convenient like this and if we don't tell anybody, then nobody can be mad about it".
Although now I'm curious why John is springing this confrontation now, what is it in aid of? I hope if he has a plan that the quality of his plans have at least improved from before, where they usually ranged from "fucked up" to "awful with probabilities of disaster" to "what plan?".
Ngamer11
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That should say 'too'.
Handlewithcare
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Why is Paul so enthused about their pseudo-cure for shizophrenics? Can't he rewrite brain chemistry with his ring? Or can't like a dozen other super-scientists on his paralel?
Also, we now know why they were so keen on killing Dominators.
Also also...did Scott sell out his own son?
Also, we now know why they were so keen on killing Dominators.
Also also...did Scott sell out his own son?
Chojin Patriarch
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Interesting. Wonder if it's anyone known in the comics? At any rate, making sure there's no ticking time bombs is definitely a good idea. Even if the Dominators never expected Earth to come for their stolen people, I wouldn't be surprised if there were things put in them to prevent any rebellious ideas.
Yeah, that's not an insignificant amount of time. Teenagers would be approaching their mid-thirties, and older folks would be hitting middle age. Some of them might have kids they've never met who are now in their teens...
Well, at least they recognise that things can't have been pleasant for the taken. By comparison, prison with hard labour would have been a holiday camp, I bet. Let me guess, though: 'Get with the program' is a euphemism for 'sign up with the JSI'?
Oh, really? If you were in that position, would you want your rescuers to just leave you stuck in a power-dampening machine?
Probably doesn't trust himself to hold back. Even if his relationship to Todd 'Obsidian' Rice isn't public knowledge, the man is officially a criminal...
Even in the wonderful realm of DC Comics, huh? Except for the rare few how are undiagnosed telepaths, or learn to turn it into a superpower somehow... And even then, that's not 'curing' them...
...OL, I don't think it'll be a method that most people would willingly make use of...
...Seriously, OL? What about quality of life? Then again, Maltusian tech could make the cybernetics much safer...
...What's the bet they discover how to turn them into Purple Death Rays inside a year?
How has that been going, by the way. Any pushback from medical unions or the like?
Quite useful for a superheroic army, really. Especially for those who aren't bullet-proof.
...Well, that's a very nice sentiment, but...
Heh, a nice bit of Skywalker snark there.
And if he can learn to do the 'power blackout' thing on demand, well...
To be fair, I suspect Commander Scott's gauge is just a little biased towards the former than the latter...
And just distract the people with some bread and circuses, will you?
Toss a bit more 'two minutes of Hate' aimed at the Dominators and they'll cheer you on?...You knew he was there the whole time, didn't you, OL?
...I suspect the Black Diamond would be very securely contained, so no?
And John's got an anti-Lantern Construct spell now? I see he's been dredging Quinn's memories for a few new tricks.
...Welp. And I had high hopes that things were better than they seemed.
Letting himself dig his grave a little deeper, Commander? Bad move, but then, you've never met a Constantine, have you.
...And I'm guessing there was quite a few. JSI seems very much an 'If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem' kind of organisation.
Ah... Sort of a 'they weren't exactly making themself useful' kind of reaction, eh?
...A once-over with a little side-eye towards 'correcting' some inconvenient memories?
Oh, you'll happily use a sentient being as a power suppressor, but tossing some super-criminals to the dogs is too much? Someone has skewed sensibilities...
Well, this has taken a turn for the grim-dark, hasn't it? To be fair, I kind of expected it, given the source material held this reality up as 'wrong' due to the lack of the Big Three. I suppose this is why. What's the bet John's cottoned on to the spell that erased them from this history, and is about to tug on a loose thread or two? He's certainly got the power to manage it, if nothing else.
A few errors today, Mr Zoat.
Everyone who has served more than fifteen years…
...usually assisted by counselling and psychoactive drugs."
The dominators will have backups of their research...
...and tries to clamp them around John...
John lifts his head off his hands...
ForeverShogo
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As far as I understood it, the Dominators basically had the Earth under siege without the Earth being able to really do anything about. If the JSI had to throw supervillains under the bus to end the siege, who the fuck cares? Like, seriously, should they have just let the Dominators keep attacking without the means to retaliate? Cutting a deal was the sensible move.
megrisvernin
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It's a tough play to make. I think in the situation it's not unreasonable, though he should have made it public and accepted the consequences.
0zymandias
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I imagine she views Obsidian as a write off already, that due to how damaged they are, the practical options are killing them or making use of brand new weapon in their arsenal; and between the two options the latter is far more palatable.
I can already hear the fascist counter; 'at least the trains ran on time'.
He can but that can only work when he cares about the person he's working on and it's nowhere near a practical solutions that could be applied on larger scale, I think he's only done so once. Also seems like he did, it seems that Green Laterns are rarely good fathers.
Interceptor seems to have a simplistic view of the world, I think it might be less that she's found her inner humanitarian rather than she's had her image of Commander Scott tarnished somewhat. He's likely been portrayed as the greatest protector of humanity against the Dominion and now he's found to have actually negotiated and given away humans to the enemy.
Churchill made his career on how his stubbornness to fight the Nazis, and his legacy was defined by it. Only then it turns out that he was perfectly willing to come to terms had they given a better offer.
If this mission pushes Paul to take a good hard look at his current philosophy and reconsider where it might take him. It's a good one. Hopefully we see a bigger Justice League but one without fascistic overtones.
Vaermina
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Eh. I would say you're worse.
Mr Zoat
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It's a matter of scale, and the fact that they used it as a rallying cry for fifteen years.
The SI doesn't know the source.
Thank you, corrected.
He doesn't know enough about neurology to only change the bits he needs to change.
Well...
Not quite, but still wrong.
Thank you, corrected.
FreeGod
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Paul has gotten used to being the Devil's advocate among groups of very idealistic heroes. When the heroes he is with aren't it throws him off a bit. He knows how to deal with villains, but right now he was using the wrong set of social assumptions.
BR549
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When this is all said and done this is the moment Paul added +1 to his Supergirl collection, isn't it.
There's a teeny, tiny, difference between "this supervillian we can't cure was stuck in this machine by evil aliens and he's too dangerous to take out of it, we might as well make use of him" and "the world's greatest hero willingly handed over thousands of prisoners to an alien invasion force as tribute and then claimed they were abducted".
Bramble Thorn
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Is everyone who ever paid a ransom because someone else had a gun, and was pointing it at peoples heads?
What about some rural sheriff confronted with a lynch mob who outnumbers and outguns him and his deputies, who is given the options of turning over a prisoner for a hanging, or the whole sheriffs office very likely getting overrun and killed?
Make no mistake that the blame should be laid first and foremost on the Dominator Invasion Fleet that had their guns trained on Earth when the deal was brokered. And it is to his credit that he did his best to build up Earths defenses so they could only be extorted this way once. And that he acted to get them beck the moment it became practicable to do so. And that he was willing to do it knowing it meant his own son would be one of those taken.
No comment on the coverup though.
Prince Charon
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The coverup may be what Interceptor is most upset about. She's (arguably) a fascist, but she's an honest fascist (and now I'm imagining her having a conversation with Overgirl, and having another horrifying revelation).
I think they were going in without her first to make sure that the locals were OK with her going back, or something like that, so she's still on Earth-16p.
FeepingCreature
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Yeah I think the coverup is almost the main moral problem here. There's one thing of doing a bad thing in a situation where all your choices are bad ones, and there's a whole other thing "leaning in" and using it to your personal advantage.
Sometimes the universe is terrible and only gives you terrible choices. That doesn't change whether you're part of it becoming better, or part of it becoming worse. Scott made himself part of it becoming worse here.
Sometimes the universe is terrible and only gives you terrible choices. That doesn't change whether you're part of it becoming better, or part of it becoming worse. Scott made himself part of it becoming worse here.
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RichardWhereat
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Having more options lets you choose the most humane method, and refine the others.
goricnac
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So I think one of the issues Interceptor has here is that apparently a lot of the prisoners they handed over were there for minor offences. This isn't handing over everyone in blackgate, this is handing over every prisoner the JSI had in any facility they controlled.
Remember they were being investigated for getting people with minor offences killed by experimenting with power suppressors, they handed over not just murderers, but also shop lifters, people with DUIs, minor drug offenders, hell wouldn't be surprised if there were people there who's only crime was not being able to afford bail. Every JSI run facility was handed over, this isn't handing over the joker, this is sentencing Captain Cold to a race of Mengeles to cover up your crimes.
Remember they were being investigated for getting people with minor offences killed by experimenting with power suppressors, they handed over not just murderers, but also shop lifters, people with DUIs, minor drug offenders, hell wouldn't be surprised if there were people there who's only crime was not being able to afford bail. Every JSI run facility was handed over, this isn't handing over the joker, this is sentencing Captain Cold to a race of Mengeles to cover up your crimes.
Mr Zoat
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Themyscira, Reformation Island. They wanted to check the destination before they took her back.
I wouldn't call her a fascist. The JSI doesn't control the economy, and there's no 'enemy within'.
Tyrantviewer
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Okay has anyone here seen the second Kingsman Movie because spoilers ahead.
In that movie the villian contaminates basically every illlegal drug in the world with a virus that will cause in order, blue discolorations, uncontrolable dancing, paralysis and then death- with her having the only cure. She offers to give the cure away for free, if all of those drugs are made legal, and she is pardoned of everything (I think, she is nuts enough that maybe she didn't include that) planning to become even more rediculously wealthy by then being able to sell all of it above board. She chooses to negotiate with the U.S. president as the representative of the free world, because she considers the United Nations Toothless. The president decides to do nothing, just stall for time until every drug user dies, winning the war on drugs by eliminating demand, crippling the villian's opperations because they have no more customers and fixing everything- at the cost of millions to billions of people dying of horrific, preventable disease. He is arrested after the heroes save the day- either because they revealed what he said (they are spys) or because one of the victims was his aid, who took uppers as part of mannaging the rediculous workload he gave her.
What we have in our story here is similar- alt Scott was waging a war on crime, that apparently already had shady stuff going on, anyone who looks up Marvel's civil war comics can see how that can happen, and decides to sell out the super criminals to get the dominators to leave. This is leavened by the fact that he jumped at the chance to go and rescue everyone, but the facts that he and interceptor are fine with leaving his son as a power source for a power nullifier, and that he kept his deal with the dominator's secret.
This also reminds me of how several fanfic interpretations of green laterns and the guardians are implied to have issues because of TOO MUCH willpower, too stubborn to listen to other points of view or reconsider their own choices, so the guy made mostly of green light falling into the same trap isn't surprising.
In any case the issue isn't just that he sold out a chunk of humanity to aliens without telling anyone, its that he apparently covered up some crimes of his own doing so, using an alien invasion to bolster his own agenda, clearly contrary to law and order, undermining a lot of the values Interceptor shows to be a part of his regime- anti alien sentiment, harsh but fair dealings with criminals etc. This one reveal throws everything into question because when else was he willing to compromise his apparent ideals for expediency and what what else is he covering up
In that movie the villian contaminates basically every illlegal drug in the world with a virus that will cause in order, blue discolorations, uncontrolable dancing, paralysis and then death- with her having the only cure. She offers to give the cure away for free, if all of those drugs are made legal, and she is pardoned of everything (I think, she is nuts enough that maybe she didn't include that) planning to become even more rediculously wealthy by then being able to sell all of it above board. She chooses to negotiate with the U.S. president as the representative of the free world, because she considers the United Nations Toothless. The president decides to do nothing, just stall for time until every drug user dies, winning the war on drugs by eliminating demand, crippling the villian's opperations because they have no more customers and fixing everything- at the cost of millions to billions of people dying of horrific, preventable disease. He is arrested after the heroes save the day- either because they revealed what he said (they are spys) or because one of the victims was his aid, who took uppers as part of mannaging the rediculous workload he gave her.
What we have in our story here is similar- alt Scott was waging a war on crime, that apparently already had shady stuff going on, anyone who looks up Marvel's civil war comics can see how that can happen, and decides to sell out the super criminals to get the dominators to leave. This is leavened by the fact that he jumped at the chance to go and rescue everyone, but the facts that he and interceptor are fine with leaving his son as a power source for a power nullifier, and that he kept his deal with the dominator's secret.
This also reminds me of how several fanfic interpretations of green laterns and the guardians are implied to have issues because of TOO MUCH willpower, too stubborn to listen to other points of view or reconsider their own choices, so the guy made mostly of green light falling into the same trap isn't surprising.
In any case the issue isn't just that he sold out a chunk of humanity to aliens without telling anyone, its that he apparently covered up some crimes of his own doing so, using an alien invasion to bolster his own agenda, clearly contrary to law and order, undermining a lot of the values Interceptor shows to be a part of his regime- anti alien sentiment, harsh but fair dealings with criminals etc. This one reveal throws everything into question because when else was he willing to compromise his apparent ideals for expediency and what what else is he covering up
Darko
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Well fuck.
Not too surprising since he nearly died.
I think they'll be eager to embrace whatever you give them.
Yes.
Oh no, they let him out of sight.
Crap.
"reaches"
Not too surprising since he nearly died.
I think they'll be eager to embrace whatever you give them.
Yes.
Oh no, they let him out of sight.
Crap.
"reaches"
Mr Zoat
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Thank you, corrected.
Darko
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It probably has something to do with the fact that he willingly gave those people to the Dominators; a group a lot of people from Earth despise and which has caused a lot of damage to them.
John likes to do these types of things from time to time, and he really despises hypocritical authority figures.
He could, but he probably wants something that can be mass-produced.
It may not be their area, or their crazy and you don't want them anywhere near it.
And that was never even true.
Heck, with Scott giving Obsidian away, he probably would have doomed Earth far more than it previously was.
Imagine them using Obsidian to block all power on Earth.
Darko
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Some may want their condition to end no matter the cost.
Sucker's bet.
That may be difficult.
He already had some anti-Lantern tricks before Quinn.
When he was in Atlantis, he was able to blow some smoke out of a protective shield Paul had him in.
She has some fascist tendencies, so of course she's like that.
Plus, she may feel that while it's okay for them to do horrible things to people, it's not okay for others to do it.
I'm guessing a fight is going to break out and then John undoes it.
Or just an argument that shows Scott trying to defend his actions, only for John to tell him to piss off and then undo it and watch in glee as Scott little fascist world falls apart.
Darko
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'glares at'
inglorius
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This should be oranged.
That aside, stuff like trading out undesirables kinda is a green thing. Just look at all shit guardians pulled.
Chaoswind
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The JSI is under investigation for egregious human rights violations and the dominators JUST HAPPENED to attack the earth to take a bunch of super villains and people off the planet and leave without actually casually fucking it over with orbital bombardment and sending them back to pre industrial level as any sensible "evil" space Nazis would have done?
Constantine is implying a lot more than men taking hard choices while hard under a bad situation, he is implying the JSI caused the bad situation.
This would be more in line with Paul getting egg in his face for just helping them witout verifying their claims.
Bud-E
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Did Commander Scott offer the prisoners so the Dominators would stop attacking earth as a sort of trade agreement? Cause if so what about the non-criminal Metas were they captured before or after the deal was made?
Chaoswind
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I actually wonder why the Dominators came to earth, took a bunch of super villains and "random people off the planet" and then left without sending earth back to pre industrial levels, and how the JSI just became the world government as a result of the power vaccum.
The fact the green lanterns didn't do shit smells terrible for commander Scott because we know one of the ways to bypass Green lantern law enforcement is to show them you were invited to the planet by the local authorities, so putting all the evidence together results in the JSI inviting the dominators to take a bunch of their prisoners off their hands and causing enough damage to allow the JSI to consolidate power and take over the planet.
In short in this parallel the JSI is the light and their plan worked to a T. They even managed to dupe an idiot over powered orange lantern into cleaning their tracks by getting rid of the evidence that remained. I wonder if Paul will come to that conclusion on his own or if Constantine will have to walk him through his idiocy.