With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

Stsword · Dec 29, 2023

crazygrox said:
One of the things I still can't tell is whether she's misunderstood and thinks that b-paul is a terrifying supervillain.

Certainly she seems to react with fear relatively often in this conversation, though we haven't really seen enough of their relationship to be able to draw firm conclusions.

I might be wrong, but I get the impression it's not really about fearing her parents but internalized feelings of being "unnatural and/or wrong" in nature.

She expects rejection from her parents because she's not reconciled with herself.

It's possible that I'm seeing this as more of a metaphor than Zoat intended, certainly.

Mr Zoat · Dec 30, 2023

Stsword said:
I might be wrong, but I get the impression it's not really about fearing her parents but internalized feelings of being "unnatural and/or wrong" in nature.

She expects rejection from her parents because she's not reconciled with herself.

It's possible that I'm seeing this as more of a metaphor than Zoat intended, certainly.

Not too far off.

Coda · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
kahuuite

kaahuite

Mr Zoat said:
can't control it's emotions-

its

Ngamer11 · Dec 30, 2023

After seeing the above correction, I found these two corrections.

Mr Zoat said:
And 'weird shadow stuff that doesn't interact with other energy' doesn't ring any bells. Stuff has to interact with other stuff. That's how magic and conventional matter work. Even kahuuite interacts with other forms of matter and energy, and that's literally outside of Creation. So the idea that it doesn't, particularly after it was unmade by Dr. Balewa's magic, sounds like nonsense.

Mr Zoat said:
"Kahuuite. It… Accretes, in the lower levels of Masak Mavdil. It can be used to negate certain angelic powers. Collecting it is a highly regarded profession of the demons who brave the depths."

Those should say 'kaahuite' and 'Kaahuite'.

Mr Zoat · Dec 30, 2023

Coda said:
kaahuite
its

Ngamer11 said:
After seeing the above correction, I found these two corrections.
Those should say 'kaahuite' and 'Kaahuite'.

Thank you, corrected.

Mr Zoat · Dec 30, 2023

20th October 2017
16:29 GMT

I set Zita down next to one of the settees and then walk over to the window while she gets herself under control. I've noticed her do this before, after emotional 'releases', and I know that she prefers to be left on her own to regain her equilibrium. Since that's not practical here the most I can really do is avoid looking in the reflection in the glass while she does breathing exercises and wipes her face dry with a handkerchief. Leaving her to do that feels wrong, but everything I've read and all the parenting advice I've gotten -admittedly from supervillains- is that letting them get it out of their system without rewarding it with attention is the right thing to do.

Unless they do it in a public location, then you're supposed to strangle them.

I hear the 'puff' of air as she gets up onto the settee, which is probably the sign that she's ready to start. I turn around and… Hm. Walk over to the floor in front of her and sit there, so that our heads are roughly level.

She makes eye contact and gives me a small nod.

I'm not exactly sure where to start.

"How much do you remember?"

She thinks for a moment.

"About as much as if I was remembering something I lived through that many years ago."

"Oh, um. In that.. case, what do you want me to call you?"

She blinks in confusion.

"My name is Zita Zatara."

"Ah, yes, that's what we called you, but if you've… Lived a normal life being called something else, then-."

"My name is Zita Zatara. I remember being someone called Suzuki Kenta and I remember being someone called Tanya von Degurechaff-"

She remembers two lives?

"-but neither of them are who I am now. In my second life I thought that I was Suzuki Kenta pretending to be Tanya von Degurechaff, as if I was controlling her with the.. control pad of a games console. As if Tanya von Degurechaff was someone else. I believe that it is called 'disassociation'. It took me many years to accept that who I had become was not the same as who I was, and I do not wish to repeat my early mistakes in this life. Zita Zatara grew up in a loving home with regular meals, and that is quite different to how Tanya von Degurechaff grew up."

I nod. I'm not sure that nodding is helpful, but what else could I do?

"My genetics are different now, and because my upbringing is different the structures of my brain would be different even if my genes were identical. Isn't that right, Dad?"

I nod again. "Yes, I think that's right. The.. only issue would be how neural pruning will work given that you're exercising different portions of your brain to normal five year olds."

"Will that be a problem?"

"If I had to guess, I'd say that it will result in you being mentally more similar to your past selves. But I don't really know." I reach out with both hands and take hold of both of hers. "But that doesn't matter to me or your mum. You're our daughter this time and we love you."

"Yes, I realise that." She turns her hands and grips my index fingers. "I think that in my first life there was something wrong with my brain. I couldn't understand certain types of human relationships. In my second life, I could understand them but I was so used to behaving as if I couldn't that I didn't stop to reconsider my own behaviour. I just kept going with an approach that I knew wouldn't work while I criticised the people around me for doing the same thing. This time I want to be different."

I nod. "From the sounds of things I hope so too."

"Still… I am concerned that I appear to be part of an international crime family, and associated with American super criminals."

"Yes, I would be too."

She regards me for a moment.

"I take it that you are not an undercover police officer."

"No. None of us are." If only that had been an option.

She nods. "I suspected, but I thought that I should ask."

"I've moved the Syndicate out of America and into an area of the world which was lawless anyway. The sort of people who make up the Syndicate actually do less harm here than the people who used to run it. I hope to get them invested in the wellbeing of the local people -or at least to feel proprietary about them- and transition to a lawful oligarchy with the next generation."

"I have wanted many things, Father, and that sounds like something that a person can want that is unlikely to happen."

"Yes." I sigh. "I know. I've thought about all of the decisions I made, and as far as I can tell the only realistic alternative was moving the Syndicate off-world and turning it into an interstellar mercenary company, but the attitude shift required would have been too great."

"And it has nothing to do with the fact that you had normalised their outlook because you spent all of your time with them?"

"Sort of. I defined myself as being the man who made them all less harmful. It's quite possible-. No, I did have opportunities to jump ship, but that would just have gotten me out. It wouldn't have helped anyone in the Syndicate or anyone who has to go on living in a world with the Syndicate in it. To say nothing of the police state President Wilson was turning America into."

President Luthor is in his second term now. Not sure who will succeed him, but while we've had the occasional clash both his people and the Syndicate are mostly avoiding direct confrontation. None of the likely candidates are making a big deal about us, so I doubt that we'll have any new problems from that direction. I am planning on sending him a bottle of wine after he leaves office, though.

"Yes." She nods. "Despite the example set by Washington, few American presidents have been willing to give up new powers they have accrued. Luthor surprised me in that regard."

"Almost all of Wilson's new powers technically had sunset clauses. I imagine that he intended to extend them indefinitely once everyone was used to them, but Luthor just stopped using them and let them expire." I smile as she appears to remember that she's holding onto my hands and immediately lets them go. "Can I interest you in a bring-your-daughter-to-work day?"

"Once, I dreamed of a peaceful retirement. I tried to retire peacefully twice, and both times I died long before I could achieve it. I do not think that becoming manager of a firm of supervillains would give me a better chance." She frowns, looking down at her hands. "Particularly given that I do not appear to have any magical ability in this life."

I shake my head. "Anyone can use magic. According to Zatara family tradition, your magic education would start in about three years."

"It may be true in this world that anyone can use magic, but family tradition aside I doubt it would be a profitable avenue to pursue unless I had some natural talent. I have tried using the basic formulae of my last life-."

I move my hands, enveloping hers. "Zita, it's very important to me that you stop doing that unless you've got someone around to spot you. Zataras have died before by doing something they didn't mean to."

She looks at me for a moment, then nods. "If magic here works differently to how it did in my previous life, that is a reasonable request. How does it work?"

"Ah, well, broadly, magic works through the manipulation of conceptual links. I don't use it myself, but if you want to hear about magic theory I can get John Constantine to lecture you. I can't think of anyone more knowledgeable on our side." She gives me a small nod. "But for the Zataras in particular, quite a few can just make things happen by talking backwards."

She blinks, then closes her eyes for several seconds before opening them. The animation fades from her face and she just looks sad.

"That's really all there is to it?"

"There are limitations. Some Zataras can only change certain classes of thing, and they have a finite amount of power to draw on."

"What language?"

"I've heard Zataras use English, Italian and Latin."

"By syllable or by letter?"

"By letter."

"Hn." Faintly, she starts to smile. "Heh ha hah. Ah hahah hah!"

Unable to contain herself, she collapses onto the settee, arms wrapped around her chest.

"That's so-! Irrational!"

I shake my head. "No one ever claimed that the universe was obliged to be rational. Do you want to talk to your mother about it?"

"Once I've calmed-. HAH! Calmed down. Heh-hah!"

Duke Long · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
Leaving her to do that feels wrong, but everything I've read and all the advice parenting I've gotten -admittedly from supervillains- is that letting them get it out of their system without rewarding it with attention is the right thing to do.

'parenting advice'?
or
'advice on parenting'?

Mr Zoat said:
"That's so-! Irrational!"

My assumption would've been that it just seems ridiculous on the surface. Like how in HPMoR, the magic seems absurd, but there's actually a completely reasonable explanation, which is that it was artificial.

This seems like it might be the end of this sidestory for now, but if it's not, I wonder if we'll see something about deities? One of Zita's big traits is her jumped-up-elementals-ism, so I wonder what she'll think of this worlds deities. It would also show what antimatter deities are like, since I think we haven't actually seen them so far.

crazygrox · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
"Ah, well, broadly, magic works through the manipulation of conceptual links. I don't use it myself, but if you want to hear about magic theory I can get John Constantine to lecture you. I can't think of anyone more knowledgeable on our side." She gives me a small nod. "But for the Zataras in particular, quite a few can just make things happen by talking backwards."

Decent odds that absentminded professor Constantine can build a framework that connects the theory of how magic here works and a theoretical framework for how magic worked in her past life.

Ngamer11 · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
And 'weird shadow stuff that doesn't interact with other energy' doesn't ring any bells. Stuff has to interact with other stuff. That's how magic and conventional matter work. Even kaahuuite interacts with other forms of matter and energy, and that's literally outside of Creation. So the idea that it doesn't, particularly after it was unmade by Dr. Balewa's magic, sounds like nonsense.

Mr Zoat said:
"Kaahuuite. It… Accretes, in the lower levels of Masak Mavdil. It can be used to negate certain angelic powers. Collecting it is a highly regarded profession of the demons who brave the depths."

Mr Zoat said:
The thought occurs that while the Second and Third of the Fallen were demons, the First… He's more like an angel. Meaning that there's a good chance that he's vulnerable to kaahuuite. Must remember to tell Constantine about that.

All of these have an extra 'u'.

Mr Zoat said:
"My name is Zita Zatara. I remember being someone called Suzuki Kenta and I remember being someone called Tanya von Degurechaff-"

She remembers two lives?

"-but neither of them are who I am now. In my second life I thought that I was Suzuki Kenta pretending to be Tanya von Degurechaff, as if I was controlling her with the.. control pad of a games console. As if Tanya von Degurechaff was someone else. I believe that it is called 'disassociation'. It took me many years to accept that who I had become was not the same as who I was, and I do not wish to repeat my early mistakes in this life. Zita Zatara grew up in a loving home with regular meals, and that is quite different to how Tanya von Degurechaff grew up."

It's nice to see that Zita has accepted that she is a reincarnation and that although she remembers her past lives, she doesn't have to let that fact define who she is. I hope we eventually get to see Power Ring react to Zita telling stories on how her previous lives went, and that the latter mentions Being X.

crazygrox · Dec 30, 2023

Duke Long said:
My assumption would've been that it just seems ridiculous on the surface. Like how in HPMoR, the magic seems absurd, but there's actually a completely reasonable explanation, which is that it was artificial.

Aren't the Zatarras metahumans(like, with a metagene) with a power that applies to their own ability to cast magic?

The Froggy Ninja · Dec 30, 2023

Ngamer11 said:
I hope we eventually get to see Power Ring react to Zita telling stories on how her previous lives went, and that the latter mentions Being X.

Being X is definitely a fitting appellation in this timeline considering that whatever it was it definitely wasn't the Source.

Far too anthropomorphic and petty.

Chojin Patriarch · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
20th October 2017
16:29 GMT

I set Zita down next to one of the settees and then walk over to the window while she gets herself under control. I've noticed her do this before, after emotional 'releases', and I know that she prefers to be left on her own to regain her equilibrium. Since that's not practical here the most I can really do is avoid looking in the reflection in the glass while she does breathing exercises and wipes her face dry with a handkerchief. Leaving her to do that feels wrong, but everything I've read and all the advice parenting I've gotten -admittedly from supervillains- is that letting them get it out of their system without rewarding it with attention is the right thing to do.

Definitely sensible, even if it feels incorrect. If she's mature enough to calm herself down from something like that - something which would have a normal girl her age throwing a monster tantrum, probably - then she deserves to do it in peace.

Unless they do it in a public location, then you're supposed to strangle them.

I hear the 'puff' of air as she gets up onto the settee, which is probably the sign that she's ready to start. I turn around and… Hm. Walk over to the floor in front of her and sit there, so that our heads are roughly level.

...Well, the parents are supervillains. At least Baul doesn't generally follow that lead.

She makes eye contact and gives me a small nod.

I'm not exactly sure where to start.

Yes, how would you start asking your preteen daughter about 'Are you reincarnated, and how much do you remember?'

"How much do you remember?"

She thinks for a moment.

...Or you can straight up just ask.

"About as much as if I was remembering something I lived through that many years ago."

"Oh, um. In that.. case, what do you want me to call you?"

So she may have well over a century of memories, depending on how long her second life lasted.

She blinks in confusion.

"My name is Zita Zatara."

It's not like she'd declare she's someone else. Then again, little girls and 'changeling fantasies'...

"Ah, yes, that's what we called you, but if you've… Lived a normal life being called something else, then-."

"My name is Zita Zatara. I remember being someone called Suzuki Kenta and I remember being someone called Tanya von Degurechaff-"

She remembers two lives?

And there it is, confirmed in-universe... Sort of.Tanya the Evil.

"-but neither of them are who I am now. In my second life I thought that I was Suzuki Kenta pretending to be Tanya von Degurechaff, as if I was controlling her with the.. control pad of a games console. As if Tanya von Degurechaff was someone else. I believe that it is called 'disassociation'. It took me many years to accept that who I had become was not the same as who I was, and I do not wish to repeat my early mistakes in this life. Zita Zatara grew up in a loving home with regular meals, and that is quite different to how Tanya von Degurechaff grew up."

Given that said childhood was effectively an alternate Germany in a post-war period, you can imagine the upbringing... Or lack of one.

I nod. I'm not sure that nodding is helpful, but what else could I do?

"My genetics are different now, and because my upbringing is different the structures of my brain would be different even if my genes were identical. Isn't that right, Dad?"

In other words, nature versus nurture with the added complication of past memories.

I nod again. "Yes, I think that's right. The.. only issue would be how neural pruning will work given that you're exercising different portions of your brain to normal five year olds."

"Will that be a problem?"

Not if you're careful about the process and undergo regular checkups? Especially if there's any sign of memory degradation...

"If I had to guess, I'd say that it will result in you being mentally more similar to your past selves. But I don't really know." I reach out with both hands and take hold of both of hers. "But that doesn't matter to me or your mum. You're our daughter this time and we love you."

Amazing that this Paul is one of the best fathers amongst those that have children.

At least, based on what we've seen 'on screen'. Peter Wynne could have been father of the year multiple years running for all we know...

"Yes, I realise that." She turns her hands and grips my index fingers. "I think that in my first life there was something wrong with my brain. I couldn't understand certain types of human relationships. In my second life, I could understand them but I was so used to behaving as if I couldn't that I didn't stop to reconsider my own behaviour. I just kept going with an approach that I knew wouldn't work while I criticised the people around me for doing the same thing. This time I want to be different."

Would probably explain the accusations of 'sociopathy' Tanya gets targetted with.

I nod. "From the sounds of things I hope so too."

"Still… I am concerned that I appear to be part of an international crime family, and associated with American super criminals."

On the upside, you're the heir to a great magical power. That alone should help you survive and perhaps change things.

"Yes, I would be too."

She regards me for a moment.

...Ah, to realise your father is this dense at so young an age...

"I take it that you are not an undercover police officer."

"No. None of us are." If only that had been an option.

True, given the reversed morality. I can't help but imagine they have beating and shakedown quotas, rather than tickets...

She nods. "I suspected, but I thought that I should ask."

"I've moved the Syndicate out of America and into an area of the world which was lawless anyway. The sort of people who make up the Syndicate actually do less harm here than the people who used to run it. I hope to get them invested in the wellbeing of the local people -or at least to feel proprietary about them- and transition to a lawful oligarchy with the next generation."

Admittedly, said generation will probably still be arseholes, but they'll be nicer about it.

"I have wanted many things, Father, and that sounds like something that a person can want that is unlikely to happen."

"Yes." I sigh. "I know. I've thought about all of the decisions I made, and as far as I can tell the only realistic alternative was moving the Syndicate off-world and turning it into an interstellar mercenary company, but the attitude shift required would have been too great."

Yeah, a lot of them probably wouldn't want to leave Earth. They know how the system works there. Other planets? Who knows what kind of screwed-up morality they have? Like, actual concern for their fellow aliens or crazy things like that!

"And it has nothing to do with the fact that you had normalised their outlook because you spent all of your time with them?"

"Sort of. I defined myself as being the man who made them all less harmful. It's quite possible-. No, I did have opportunities to jump ship, but that would just have gotten me out. It wouldn't have helped anyone in the Syndicate or anyone who has to go on living in a world with the Syndicate in it. To say nothing of the police state President Wilson was turning America into."

Thankfully he got nobbled right fast, though not without grave cost.

President Luthor is in his second term now. Not sure who will succeed him, but while we've had the occasional clash both his people and the Syndicate are mostly avoiding direct confrontation. None of the likely candidates are making a big deal about us, so I doubt that we'll have any new problems from that direction. I am planning on sending him a bottle of wine after he leaves office, though.

"Yes." She nods. "Despite the example set by Washington, few American presidents have been willing to give up new powers they have accrued. Luthor surprised me in that regard."

Let me guess, the note will read 'Congratulations on surviving the madhouse. Enjoy the rest of your long life watching the poor bastards who had to replace you.' Or something similar.

"Almost all of Wilson's new powers technically had sunset clauses. I imagine that he intended to extend them indefinitely once everyone was used to them, but Luthor just stopped using them and let them expire." I smile as she appears to remember that she's holding onto my hands and immediately lets them go. "Can I interest you in a bring-your-daughter-to-work day?"

"Once, I dreamed of a peaceful retirement. I tried to retire peacefully twice, and both times I died long before I could achieve it. I do not think that becoming manager of a firm of supervillains would give me a better chance." She frowns, looking down at her hands. "Particularly given that I do not appear to have any magical ability in this life."

...Girl, you're five. And magical powers don't exactly kick in from birth, thankfully.

...Could you imagine the tantrums?

I shake my head. "Anyone can use magic. According to Zatara family tradition, your magic education would start in about three years."

"It may be true in this world that anyone can use magic, but family tradition aside I doubt it would be a profitable avenue to pursue unless I had some natural talent. I have tried using the basic formulae of my last life-."

Now see, there's your first mistake. Different worlds, different rulesets.

I move my hands, enveloping hers. "Zita, it's very important to me that you stop doing that unless you've got someone around to spot you. Zataras have died before by doing something they didn't mean to."

She looks at me for a moment, then nods. "If magic here works differently to how it did in my previous life, that is a reasonable request. How does it work?"

...Good, learn the rules first, then how you can break them.

"Ah, well, broadly, magic works through the manipulation of conceptual links. I don't use it myself, but if you want to hear about magic theory I can get John Constantine to lecture you. I can't think of anyone more knowledgeable on our side." She gives me a small nod. "But for the Zataras in particular, quite a few can just make things happen by talking backwards."

She blinks, then closes her eyes for several seconds before opening them. The animation fades from her face and she just looks sad.

I love that John Constantine is either neutral or an outright villain here. I wonder if he even does anything differently.

"That's really all there is to it?"

"There are limitations. Some Zataras can only change certain classes of thing, and they have a finite amount of power to draw on."

But those sort of Zatara family members usually aren't from the main house, to borrow a turn of phrase.

"What language?"

"I've heard Zataras use English, Italian and Latin."

Honestly, the better you speak the language, the easier it is to speak it backwards.

"By syllable or by letter?"

"By letter."

Honestly, a language with distinct phenomes for each unique character might be the easiest way to manage it. Languages like Japanese or the various Chinese dialects, for example.

"Hn." Faintly, she starts to smile. "Heh ha hah. Ah hahah hah!"

Unable to contain herself, she collapses onto the settee, arms wrapped around her chest.

Yes, it is incredibly silly, isn't it? But it's harder than you might think. Especially when English has such tricky pronunciations of certain letter combinations.

"That's so-! Irrational!"

I shake my head. "No one ever claimed that the universe was obliged to be rational. Do you want to talk to your mother about it?"

"Once I've calmed-. HAH! Calmed down. Heh-hah!"

I wonder if she'd ever realise this is a comic-book universe, based on her prior lifetimes. Or if Baul outright tells her so. That would probably make the illogicality of it make sense then.

It's good to see her acting like a little girl for once, laughing like a loon and all. Something I doubt either of her previous lives had a chance to do much of. Really, unless she's has reason to fear for her life, it's probably better for her to just relax and live like a child for real this time around. I mean, how many of us wouldn't do the same thing if we had the chance?

Duke Long · Dec 30, 2023

crazygrox said:
Aren't the Zatarras metahumans(like, with a metagene) with a power that applies to their own ability to cast magic?

Well, then you're moving on from 'Zatara magic is absurd' to 'the metagene is absurd'. But it is a step in the right direction.

Stsword · Dec 30, 2023

crazygrox said:
Aren't the Zatarras metahumans(like, with a metagene) with a power that applies to their own ability to cast magic?

No. The Zatara family magic, logomancy, was a method invented by Leonardo Da Vinci, absolutely anyone can learn it just like anyone could learn shamanistic practices, hermetic rituals, etc, etc, etc.

Being a homo magi just means that Zatanna has an innate pool of energy to power her magic, unlike muggles who require external sources of energy like magical locations, magical items, deals with spiritual entities that usually don't have one's best interest in heart. or tapping into faith via religious ceremonies.

Now DC does have magical metahumans but those are people like Black Alice who can steal the magical powers of others or her cousin who can teleport despite not knowing any magic.

In this story Zoat made the backwards talking a family magical talent, but it's not a manifestation of the metagene.

Now in the cartoon "homo magi" were revealed to be a manifestation of the metagene, but that revelation came well after Zoat started this story.

Mr Zoat · Dec 30, 2023

Duke Long said:
'parenting advice'?
or
'advice on parenting'?

Ngamer11 said:
All of these have an extra 'u'.

Thank you, corrected.

Chojin Patriarch said:
It's good to see her acting like a little girl for once, laughing like a loon and all. Something I doubt either of her previous lives had a chance to do much of. Really, unless she's has reason to fear for her life, it's probably better for her to just relax and live like a child for real this time around. I mean, how many of us wouldn't do the same thing if we had the chance?

Ciber · Dec 30, 2023

I love this idea so much. I don't think I've ever seen a story where an Isakai raises a reincarnate before. This is already competing with Renegades love life for my favorite side plot.

Darko · Dec 30, 2023

Chojin Patriarch said:
True, given the reversed morality. I can't help but imagine they have beating and shakedown quotas, rather than tickets...

I want to make a social commentary, but I'm afraid I might break the no politics rule.

Still, they probably don't have that.

The cops probably do the same things they do in other DC universes.

The only difference here is that the commissioner is Oswald Copplepot and Jim Gordon runs the Gotham City underworld.

Chojin Patriarch said:
Let me guess, the note will read 'Congratulations on surviving the madhouse. Enjoy the rest of your long life watching the poor bastards who had to replace you.' Or something similar.

At least Luthor doesn't have any hair to go gray.

Chojin Patriarch said:
I love that John Constantine is either neutral or an outright villain here. I wonder if he even does anything differently

From what we've seen of him he's an absent-minded professor type.

I think it was even mentioned that he may not know that the Zataras were criminals.

iamnuff · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
I can get John Constantine to lecture you.

They have a John Constantine?
I kinda wonder what the villain-world version of him is like.

Did we meet him already? I forget.

Mr Zoat · Dec 30, 2023

iamnuff said:
They have a John Constantine?
I kinda wonder what the villain-world version of him is like.

Did we meet him already? I forget.

Yes, briefly. He's an unworldly magical theorist.

Dur'id the Druid · Dec 30, 2023

Duke Long said:
HPMoR, the magic seems absurd, but there's actually a completely reasonable explanation, which is that it was artificial.

Was that confirmed in story? I don't remember that.

Oh boy, Tanya the Evil crossover, very interesting. Is this Paul still believing the 'jumped up elementals' of gods? It is actually really in line of Tanya's own experiences. Also makes me wonder what Being X is up to. After all, it did promise that Tanya's life in Germany was going to be their last reincarnation.

Ngamer11 · Dec 30, 2023

Dur'id the Druid said:
Oh boy, Tanya the Evil crossover, very interesting. Is this Paul still believing the 'jumped up elementals' of gods? It is actually really in line of Tanya's own experiences. Also makes me wonder what Being X is up to. After all, it did promise that Tanya's life in Germany was going to be their last reincarnation.

My bet is that Being X either decided that the DC multiverse is too much for it or it tried to do something but got smacked down by one of the many supernatural beings that exist in the DC multiverse.

The Froggy Ninja · Dec 30, 2023

Chojin Patriarch said:
I love that John Constantine is either neutral or an outright villain here. I wonder if he even does anything differently.

While that idea has been jossed, it does remind me of how the Tau in Brighthammer are exactly the same. Sufficiently morally grey entities are the Majorana Fermions of mirror dimensions. They are their own evil twins.

iamnuff · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
Yes, briefly. He's an unworldly magical theorist.

An academic nerd?

I vaguely remember that.
I guess that's about as 'reversed' as you can make John Constantine.

Flipping his morality wouldn't do very much.

jaelin910 · Dec 30, 2023

Here's where their Constantine showed up, if anyone's curious

Mr Zoat said:
"I don't like leaving-" There's another clank from somewhere behind something that looks like it escaped from the set of Thirteen Ghosts. "-things to chance. You know that. Gets people hurt."

Huh. Add in some affected nonchalance…

"I'm assuming that's your John Constantine."

"Yeah." Mister Scott nods. "Not much use in the field, but he's a great researcher and theorist."

"There." There's another clank, and then… Yes, that's John Constantine, but… Thick rimmed glasses with jeweller's magnifying lenses stuck on the bottom, a burn scar slash across his right cheek and a buttoned up laboratory coat combined with a tool belt. "Give it a moment to fully de-"

Olympia strides across the circle, ignoring the shock as the residual electricity discharges itself into her legs.

"-gauss. Right, yeah, nice work." He puts his hands on his hips as she strides past him. "Hope you weren't planning on going anywhere for another week."

"Don't let her bother you." Mister Scott crosses the circle without incident and approaches John -14, laying his right hand on the man's left shoulder. "You did good work here. Mission successful. Take a break."

John shakes his head, refusing to meet Mister Scott's eyes. "I.. can't, I can't afford the time. You know that."

Mr Zoat · Dec 30, 2023

iamnuff said:
An academic nerd?

I vaguely remember that.
I guess that's about as 'reversed' as you can make John Constantine.

Flipping his morality wouldn't do very much.

Darko · Dec 30, 2023

Mr Zoat said:

Honestly it'd be kinda funny if the opposite of neutral is anti-neutral.

The possessor of such a moral system basically jumps from one extreme end of the spectrum to the other instead of being in the middle.

You have them helping a cat from trees one moment and then them drowning said cat.

Duke Long · Dec 30, 2023

Dur'id the Druid said:
Was that confirmed in story? I don't remember that.

I thought it was, but embarrassingly I just did some quick checks and it seems like it was just a theory in-universe, and I saw some indication that there was actually Word of God that magic was natural, but it seemed like arbitrary nonsense because all sorts of restrictions were added to it by ancient magicians, and modern magicians just can't overcome the restrictions.

Mr Zoat · Dec 31, 2023

Day 17
23rd March 2013
23:44 GMT -5

Sunset grunts faintly as she finishes laying out the cable which forms the runic circle she's using for this operation, and I… Find myself growing a little maudlin. With her work in the school and with Circe I don't see her anything like as much as I used to. She doesn't even live in the mountain most of the time, though of course I've left her room and workshop in place-.

"What?"

"Sunset, you know that I'm proud of what you've achieved since you arrived on Earth-"

Her eyes narrow suspiciously. "What?"

"-both in terms of your magic and the way you've forged a new life for yourself." I smile, and open my arms in an invitation for a hug.

"S-. Seriously? Now?" I broaden my smile and crouch down a little. Not that much. She's not much shorter than me, though she's far less massive.

She keeps staring at me, then accepts that I'm serious and walks up to me, rolling her eyes. I hug her, my greater mass basically enveloping her. She sort of hugs back.

"What's this about?"

"I just realised how little I see you, and how much I miss seeing you."

"You know where the school is."

"Yes, I know I can visit, but it's not really the same." I release her, much to her relief. "And I really appreciate you helping me with this."

"Doing this, you mean. And you haven't even told me what we're doing."

"I'm afraid that I am under a magically binding contract which prevents me from explaining exactly what I'm doing-."

"Because you were looking for a way to help the souls of your children's brothers and sisters. And then you disappeared for two weeks."

"I suppose that a rational person might reach the conclusion that those two facts were related. I couldn't possibly comment."

"And we're spying on Newstime because you don't like their editorials?"

"I hold Newstime in contempt because they fail to offer a useful service. Their analysis is surface level, their evidence-finding is lazy, they accept citizen journalism uncritically for anything other than moment-by-moment coverage and I've yet to see a single issue without a glaring grammatical error that took me right out."

"And we're in a tunnel under their parking garage because you want me to magic them better editors."

"No, we're here because I want to find out if anything magic is happening in that building using purely passive monitoring and without being detected by any protective magics at work on the building and you're one hundred percent of the people I believe can do the job."

She frowns thoughtfully. "How good are the defences?"

"No idea."

"Okay, how good are the people who made the defences?"

Hm. Now, I knew who and what Colin Thornton was before I accepted the First's offer, but I can't share anything that I learned since. I'm able to call in Sunset because this is covered by my law enforcement responsibilities and is necessary to complete my infernal assignment, so…

"You may assume that the defender is highly skilled and patient, and is most at home with demon magic." Though since he's Jebediah's son… "And possibly order magic."

"Demons aren't supposed to be big on order." She looks thoughtfully at the magic cable. "Though I guess there could be exceptions."

"Remember Teth Adom's sponsor?"

"The Lord of Order who murdered him and bound his soul to an amulet that got stolen by a serial killer to get super powers? What about him?"

"Your opponent will be his son."

"His son… Who uses demon magic?" The corners of her mouth turn down. "Wait. You were looking for a succubus, who was the mother of demon-vampire hybrids, and we're looking for a demon whose father was a Lord of Order?"

Huh. "Yes?"

"Is this a… Thing?"

"How do you mean?"

"Look, I'm from Equestria. We have mules, and I know where they come from. But most ponies don't summon up umbrum and try breeding with them."

"What about kirin?"

"I.. don't think they do either?"

"No, I mean, kirin are dragon-pony hybrids, right? And adult dragons are quite a bit bigger than ponies." Hm. "Except Princess Celestia, but I doubt that the entire species-."

"No-." Sunset gags, cringing and holding her stomach as if she's worried that she's going to be sick. "Uh."

"Actually, that's a point. I know that regular mares have finite eggs in their ovaries, but do alicorns have the same limitation or do they magically replenish?"

"Why? Why?"

"Luna's in her forties. If she were a human woman the chances of her conceiving naturally would be pretty low, even allowing that she was otherwise in excellent health. And then there's you. Career women in western society have developed a habit of leaving child-bearing until their late thirties or early forties and unsurprisingly struggle to conceive. I want to make sure that you've thought about things and haven't just assumed that since you're ageless you can just leave it as late as you like."

"Hah!" She grins triumphantly, and points at my face with her right forefinger. "That isn't a problem. I gave myself the same fertility control that Lynne and Barda Free have. I can save all my eggs for as long as I want."

"Agree to teach Luna that and I'll stop talking about it."

"Done! So, this guy."

"Colin Thornton, aka Satanus."

"Isn't Satanus a big deal in human religion?"

"No, he's just named after him. But I want to make sure that his terrible magazine isn't using magic to get people to buy it, and if it turns out that he's up to anything else in there, well, if we find it while doing something legitimate then it's still admissible."

"Can you narrow it down?"

"Ah… No. Sorry."

"Fine. At least you're honest about it." She walks over to the centre of her rune array and wiggles her fingers. "Do you want to know how this works, or will that make a problem for whatever rules you're complying with?"

"Oh, go ahead and tell me. I know you want to."

"I'm the Alicorn of Magic. As long as I don't interfere with the spells directly, I can push and pull the energy flows so that they move around my detections spells. It's harder to tell what they're doing like that, but it's still possible and it's basically impossible to detect someone doing it. And since the structure of his spells are effectively coming outside of their own effect area, I should be able to follow around the whole structure without the spells reacting at all." She smiles smugly. "It's a little like how the planet Earth moves around the sun without anyone falling off the planet."

I nod. "Good show. Let me know what you find."

Darko · Dec 31, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
magic." Though since he's Nabu's son… "And possibly order magic."

Mr Zoat said:
Remember Nabu?"

"The Lord of Order you turned into a construct, stabbed to death, then he came back and you beat him up until he went into hiding? What about him?"

"Your opponent will be his son."

"His son… Who uses demon magic?" The corners of her mouth turn down. "Wait. You were looking

Correction, it should say "Jebediah" or "Shazam", not "Nabu".

Mr Zoat said:
the Alcorn of Magic

"Alicorn"

Chojin Patriarch · Dec 31, 2023

Mr Zoat said:
Day 17
23rd March 2013
23:44 GMT -5

Sunset grunts faintly as she finishes laying out the cable which forms the runic circle she's using for this operation, and I… Find myself growing a little maudlin. With her work in the school and with Circe I don't see her anything like as much as I used to. She doesn't even live in the mountain most of the time, though of course I've left her room and workshop in place-.

"What?"

Ah, they grow up so quick, don't they? From temperamental teenager out to prove something to her former tutor, to immortal demigoddess of Thaumaturgy who did prove that something. It's interesting that you're here, instead of Hell, though. I guess the contract allowed for external consultants...

"Sunset, you know that I'm proud of what you've achieved since you arrived on Earth-"

Her eyes narrow suspiciously. "What?"

Ah, geez, Renegade, don't wave death flags like that. Because when a father figure declares they're proud of you...

"-both in terms of your magic and the way you've forged a new life for yourself." I smile, and open my arms in an invitation for a hug.

"S-. Seriously? Now?" I broaden my smile and crouch down a little. Not that much. She's not much shorter than me, though she's far less massive.

Sounds like quite the growth spurt for Sunset, given that he's around eight feet. I expect she gets a lot of internet attention from fans of larger women now.

She keep staring at me, then accepts that I'm serious and walks up to me, rolling her eyes. I hug her, my greater mass basically enveloping her. She sort of hugs back.

"What's this about?"

Ah, still an awkward teenager at heart, though.

"I just realised how little I see you, and how much I miss seeing you."

"You know where the school is."

Yeah, but that's like visiting a kid at work. It's all kinds of awkward for you and for them.

"Yes, I know I can visit, but it's not really the same." I release her, much to her relief. "And I really appreciate you helping me with this."

"Doing this, you mean. And you haven't even told me what we're doing."

Honestly, Renegade, not even giving her a hint? There's plausible deniability, and then there's the mushroom treatment...

"I'm afraid that I am under a magically binding contract which prevents me from explaining exactly what I'm doing-."

"Because you were looking for a way to help the souls of your children's brothers and sisters. And then you disappeared for two weeks."

Yes, things got... Complicated.

"I suppose that a rational person might reach the conclusion that those two facts were related. I couldn't possibly comment."

"And we're spying on Newstime because you don't like their editorials?"

Well, it is something of a tabloid in-universe, despite being a Time-wannabe. Best known for having had a real-world issue released during the Death of Superman storyline.

"I hold Newstime in contempt because they fail to offer a useful service. Their analysis is surface level, their evidence-finding is lazy, they accept citizen journalism uncritically for anything other than moment-by-moment coverage and I've yet to see a single issue without a glaring grammatical error that took me right out."

"And we're in a tunnel under their parking garage because you want me to magic them better editors."

In other words, all the pretentions of a major news magazine, but none of the talent.

"No, we're here because I want to find out if anything magic is happening in that building using purely passive monitoring and without being detected by any protective magics at work on the building and you're one hundred percent of the people I believe can do the job."

She frowns thoughtfully. "How good are the defences?"

Ah, now she's interested. Because this is a challenge to her skills.

"No idea."

"Okay, how good are the people who made the defences?"

Heh. Working blind and with a need for stealth. Just racking up the difficulty modifiers.

Hm. Now, I knew who and what Colin Thornton was before I accepted the First's offer, but I can't share anything that I learned since. I'm able to call in Sunset because this is covered by my law enforcement responsibilities and is necessary to complete my infernal assignment, so…

"You may assume that the defender is highly skilled and patient, and is most at home with demon magic." Though since he's Nabu's son… "And possibly order magic."

...Probably going to get corrected there. Then again, he could easily just be misremembering.

"Demons aren't supposed to be big on order." She looks thoughtfully at the magic cable. "Though I guess there could be exceptions."

"Remember Nabu?"

...Heh. Wrong pappy, Renegade, but I suppose your memory isn't the greatest.

(Honestly, I nearly made the same mistake myself a few times while commenting...)

"The Lord of Order you turned into a construct, stabbed to death, then he came back and you beat him up until he went into hiding? What about him?"

"Your opponent will be his son."

Man, is he going to feel like a fool when he remembers the real connections involved.

Though I'll probably have to update this section when Mr Zoat sorts it out.

"His son… Who uses demon magic?" The corners of her mouth turn down. "Wait. You were looking for a succubus, who was the mother of demon-vampire hybrids, and we're looking for a demon who's father was a Lord of Order?"

Huh. "Yes?"

No, they aren't related. Though boy howdy, Demons seem to breed with humans a surprising amount, don't they?

"Is this a… Thing?"

"How do you mean?"

Hey, Humans are basically universally compatible with damn near anything with a suitable connection, so to speak. And the Demons who breed are generally human-like in shape...

"Look, I'm from Equestria. We have mules, and I know where they come from. But most ponies don't summon up umbrum and try breeding with them."

"What about kirin?"

An interesting question. Apparently true-breeding half-breeds, based on East Asian mythological creatures.

"I.. don't think they do either?"

"No, I mean, kirin are dragon-pony hybrids, right? And adult dragons are quite a bit bigger than ponies." Hm. "Except Princess Celestia, but I doubt that the entire species-."

Ah, 'Hot Wailord on Skitty Action', eh? Much like you and... Most any regular human woman, Renegade.

Though elder Dragons on Wilson do tend to be significantly larger than ponies.

"No-." Sunset gags, cringing and holding her stomach as if she's worried that she's going to be sick. "Uh."

"Actually, that's a point. I know that regular mares have finite eggs in their ovaries, but do alicorns have the same limitation or do they magically replenish?"

"Why? Why?"

Haha! Such a childish reaction to hearing about sex talk from the old man.

"Luna's in her forties. If she were a human woman the chances of her conceiving naturally would be pretty low, even allowing that she was otherwise in excellent health. And then there's you. Career women in western society have developed a habit of leaving child-bearing until their late thirties or early forties and unsurprisingly struggle to conceive. I want to make sure that you've thought about things and haven't just assumed that since you're ageless you can just leave it as late as you like."

I suspect there are branches of magical study related to that sort of thing somewhere on Wilson... Not ones spoken about in polite company, but still...

"Hah!" She grins triumphantly, and points at my face with her right forefinger. "That isn't a problem. I gave myself the same fertility control that Lynne and Barda Free have. I can save all my eggs for as long as I want."

"Agree to teach Luna that and I'll stop talking about it."

Yes, please, anything to end this line of conversation...

"Done! So, this guy."

"Colin Thornton, aka Satanus."

Oner more, in case anyone's forgotten already: Satanus.

"Isn't Satanus a big deal in human religion?"

"No, he's just named after him. But I want to make sure that his terrible magazine isn't using magic to get people to buy it, and if it turns out that he's up to anything else in there, well, if we find it while doing something legitimate then it's still admissible."

Indeed, Satan is largely a title, not a proper name, at least in Judaism. God's prosecuting attorney, for want of a better analogy, testing the faith of important figures.

"Can you narrow it down?"

"Ah… No. Sorry."

Heck, this is already on somewhat shaky legal grounds. Especially since the Renegade has no idea what he's looking for.

"Fine. At least you're honest about it." She walks over to the centre of her rune array and wiggles her fingers. "Do you want to know how this works, or will that make a problem for whatever rules you're complying with?"

"Oh, go ahead and tell me. I know you want to."

Let her gloat about her talents...

Sorry, show off her skill and education.

"I'm the Alcorn of Magic. As long as I don't interfere with the spells directly, I can push and pull the energy flows so that they move around my detections spells. It's harder to tell what they're doing like that, but it's still possible and it's basically impossible to detect someone doing it. And since the structure of his spells are effectively coming outside of their own effect area, I should be able to follow around the whole structure without the spells reacting at all." She smiles smugly. "It's a little like how the planet Earth moves around the sun without anyone falling off the planet."

I nod. "Good show. Let me know what you find."

Not the best metaphor, but it works, I guess.

So, the Renegade's feeling a bit suspicious of Satanus' apparent altruism over in Purgatory, eh? No doubt he heard a few whispered rumours during his information-gathering tour of the abyssal realms. And I'm sure the First would like to hear about it if the young pup is planning anything rebellious... Whether it be to smack him down when he tries his plan, or just to watch and laugh as he fails.

With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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