With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[RichardWhereat]

How the hell are the americans even defining God? As their christians would? That'd be an extremely easy one to overturn. I always felt that Stargate fucked up there, but it's unsurprising given that even in supernatural shows with multiple pantheons they have the philosophy "All gods are real, but Christian god is most real."

 

[Z000]

From the context, and I might have read it wrong, she was talking pejoratively about him; maybe on her own, maybe with her colleagues, maybe to the students, I don't know. But she did it where a student, and maybe more than just the little girl, could hear her.

Now, from what I recall, Paulmon understood that they would send spies among the teachers he requested, but talking disparagingly about him to impressionable ears seems a bit... undermining, to me.

Edit: Ninja'ed there.

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ah okay, so her job is to teach but if she teaching bad or wrong thing for nefarious reason then Fake-God Paul will be having words

 

[GigaVanguard]

We need more Paulmon interacting with small children, it's hilarious !

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I realized after a second glance at your comment that Paulmon was just a mash-up of Paul and Mammon, but for a brief, glorious moment, I thought you were referring to the various Elsepauls as Paulmon. Gotta catch 'em all!

 

[Lord Ernest]

How the hell are the americans even defining God? As their christians would? That'd be an extremely easy one to overturn. I always felt that Stargate fucked up there, but it's unsurprising given that even in supernatural shows with multiple pantheons they have the philosophy "All gods are real, but Christian god is most real."

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I mean, I don't blame the show more than I blame US sensitivities back then. From what I recall, sometimes TV shows couldn't even mention the Christian god. I believe it's better now, with Christian mythology being more fair game for exploration and mockery; but religious groups still try to boycott shows that do so, I remember reading something to that effect about Good Omens for example.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I mean, I don't blame the show more than I blame US sensitivities back then. From what I recall, sometimes TV shows couldn't even mention the Christian god. I believe it's better now, with Christian mythology being more fair game for exploration and mockery; but religious groups still try to boycott shows that do so, I remember reading something to that effect about Good Omens for example.

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Ah, yes: Thor, Prince of Thunder.

 

[MagnumForce]

Gotta admit I enjoy this crossover as much as the main story, Stargate is a franchise almost completely dead and with very few fanfics ro its name. And it's fun to see the local Paul pretend to be a creature that pretends to be a god.

 

[Azure Mirage]

Undermining someone who is actively helping you out is fucking short-sighted. Especially since he has displayed abilities beyond any member of the "species" he is masquerading as. Remember, Paul is underselling his abilities as a Lantern deliberately. They have no counters I know of, and with the ring he can continuously refresh his body to emulate using a sarcophagus.

Fuck around and find out is a distinct possibility if they push too hard. You do NOT fuck with your tenuous ally in such a way; trying to sow generational discord so you can come in with your "Modern" ways and "make things better" it is fucking obnoxious considering Paulmon is not cruel or unjust.

 

[moralrelativity]

to be paid out in one go would be cash than he'd have on hand anyway.

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would be cash -> would be more cash

 

[Razorfloss]

Undermining someone who is actively helping you out is fucking short-sighted. Especially since he has displayed abilities beyond any member of the "species" he is masquerading as. Remember, Paul is underselling his abilities as a Lantern deliberately. They have no counters I know of, and with the ring he can continuously refresh his body to emulate using a sarcophagus.

Fuck around and find out is a distinct possibility if they push too hard. You do NOT fuck with your tenuous ally in such a way; trying to sow generational discord so you can come in with your "Modern" ways and "make things better" it is fucking obnoxious considering Paulmon is not cruel or unjust.

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Tell that to "insert intelligence agency here". we have done dumber and will do worse in the future. Intelligence agency are the perfect mix of incredibly dumb and incredibly competent and there's no telling what you're going to get until after the fact.

 

[BR549]

Undermining someone who is actively helping you out is fucking short-sighted. Especially since he has displayed abilities beyond any member of the "species" he is masquerading as. Remember, Paul is underselling his abilities as a Lantern deliberately. They have no counters I know of, and with the ring he can continuously refresh his body to emulate using a sarcophagus.

Fuck around and find out is a distinct possibility if they push too hard. You do NOT fuck with your tenuous ally in such a way; trying to sow generational discord so you can come in with your "Modern" ways and "make things better" it is fucking obnoxious considering Paulmon is not cruel or unjust.

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Tell that to "insert intelligence agency here". we have done dumber and will do worse in the future. Intelligence agency are the perfect mix of incredibly dumb and incredibly competent and there's no telling what you're going to get until after the fact.

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I should note also that this is entirely on brand for the NID...

 

[SemiAnarchist]

Stargate is a franchise almost completely dead and with very few fanfics ro its name

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Mostly dead I'll give you, but a quick look shows something like 34 thousand SG1 fanfics on fanfic.net

 

[Mr Zoat]

would be cash -> would be more cash

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Thank you, corrected.

I should note also that this is entirely on brand for the NID...

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This was just a teacher mouthing off without checking who was listening, because she's a teacher with security clearence rather than an actual soldier.

 

[RedX]

Given how all the other Goa'uld generally acted- basically from birth, thanks to their genetic memory- I can fully understand the sentiment.

Just not the smarts of even mentioning it while hanging around under his roof.

because she's a teacher with security clearence rather than an actual soldier.

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Well, that's a good sign at least. "Well, you asked for teachers, not Intel operatives. That's what we gave you. Are you that surprised that one had opinions and made them known?"

 

[Mr Zoat]

Well, that's a good sign at least. "Well, you asked for teachers, not Intel operatives. That's what we gave you. Are you that surprised that one had opinions and made them known?"

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It's not that they don't want to send intelligence operatives. It's that there are only a handful of people on Earth who would know where to even start with the local language. Remember in the film when Dr. Jackson couldn't speak to the Abydosians until they found some writing and Sha're corrected his pronunciation.

 

[jasonh23761]

Honestly, if it had been intentional, it would have been right out of the Parangosky classic: So you've just come out of a 27 year genocidal stellar war?

Step 1: Try to get the closest thing you have to an ally overthrown.

 

[Impartial Panic]

They tried to kill Fidel Castro like that.

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Yeah name a stupid or silly CIA plot and it's usually a kill Castro plan.

We did a lot of silly/stupid things to try killing Castro.

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Makes me think it had become a hazing ritual in the CIA.

She's trying to sow doubt into the population starting with the youth in order to make it easier for Earth to eventually conquer the world, or at least make it easier for them to do whatever they want with the planet in the midst of the chaos it could start.

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The one Gou'ald we've met that isn't trying to kill or subjugate us and you want to shit in his yard.

Hell we're lucky this one is so diplomatic about your attempt to sow discord.

Teal'c has told us about some of the rather horrific punishments the other Gou'ald have inflicted on those that try to dispel the myth of them being gods.

yeah I can bet that is not going to be a fun debrief.

It's not that they don't want to send intelligence operatives. It's that there are only a handful of people on Earth who would know where to even start with the local language. Remember in the film when Dr. Jackson couldn't speak to the Abydosians until they found some writing and Sha're corrected his pronunciation.

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"Hey Daniel what's this?"

"Mammon just sent us a number of translation books and recordings."

"[insert language here] to english made easy, wait you're serious?"

"Very, the amusing thing is he speaks with an English accent."

"Maybe we should send him some tea."

"He's already asked if we could include some earl grey in the next trade package."

"Oh he has got to be messing with us."

 

[ForeverShogo]

I don't really understand the question of how they're defining a god. The Goa'uld are parasitic serpents that deliberately keep their slave populations in a primitive and uneducated state so they can use their own advanced technology to awe them into seeing them as gods. It's not like they're some sort of supernatural beings with something you could attribute as any sort of actual divine power.

If any sort of being in the Stargate universe could get away with the claiming to be gods, or at least god-like, it'd be the Ascended. Like, well, the Ori. They were just massive assholes.

 

[Darko]

Yeah name a stupid or silly CIA plot and it's usually a kill Castro plan.

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I'm wondering if they were using the drugs they were bringing into the country on themselves.

That would explain a lot.

Makes me think it had become a hazing ritual in the CIA.

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I remember a scene in Archer where the team screws up a mission in South America and Slater, their CIA handler, is basically slowly resigned that another mission south of the border has failed spectacularly.

I don't really understand the question of how they're defining a god. The Goa'uld are parasitic serpents that deliberately keep their slave populations in a primitive and uneducated state so they can use their own advanced technology to awe them into seeing them as gods. It's not like they're some sort of supernatural beings with something you could attribute as any sort of actual divine power.

If any sort of being in the Stargate universe could get away with the claiming to be gods, or at least god-like, it'd be the Ascended. Like, well, the Ori. They were just massive assholes.

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The definition of Godhood can vary from culture to culture and from era to era.

Some may see a deity as being an all powerful entity beyond humanity, while others may have seen a deity as being more powerful than an average mortal, but otherwise being fairly human.

The Goa'uld do kinda fit into the second category.

 

[Ina_Meishou]

I don't really understand the question of how they're defining a god. The Goa'uld are parasitic serpents that deliberately keep their slave populations in a primitive and uneducated state so they can use their own advanced technology to awe them into seeing them as gods. It's not like they're some sort of supernatural beings with something you could attribute as any sort of actual divine power.

If any sort of being in the Stargate universe could get away with the claiming to be gods, or at least god-like, it'd be the Ascended. Like, well, the Ori. They were just massive assholes.

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Because to the vast majority of humans throughout history, the Goa'uld do meet the criteria for being 'divine'.

Knowledge beyond of depth and breadth beyond a mortals ability to gather, from birth. Relics of power vastly beyond the abilities of their subjects to replicate. Functional Immortality.

Realms beyond the world to which they ride on bridges of light and ships of gold.

The (modern) abrahamic idea of a god as some sort of perfect being, whose power is literally infinite and who can never fail or lose or make a mistake, is hilariously new. And it makes up a hilariously tiny fraction of what humans have considered 'divine' through history. For most humans, ever, a 'god' just meant 'a really, really powerful being who maybe has magic powers'.

So the Goa'uld are wise and powerful serpents who bless a chosen few humans with the honor of being their mortal avatars? Most people in history would think 'yeah, that tracks'. It's not any more silly than divinities inhabiting statues, or divinities inhabiting buildings, or trees, or cows.

 

[PrinceJonathan]

I'd like to see him argue what the qualifications of a God are, and if he meets them.

Omnipresence? He can teleport anywhere he needs to be in an instant.

Omniscience? He can know anything he wants so long as his Ring isn't blocked by Plot Armor.

Omnipotence? There isn't anything his Ring can't do as long as he wants it hard enough.

 

[hance1986]

More Mammon. Love that guy.

On another note, am interested in any ideas Zoat would have regarding a OL Paul inserted into the Inner Sphere of Battletech.

I was watching some e very good lore videos on Battletech, namely on the fall of the Star League and the start of the First Succession War.

So I'm wondering how Paul with a power ring would end the madness or create a secured area the Great Houses can't smash to pieces.

 

[Mr Zoat]

More Mammon. Love that guy.

On another note, am interested in any ideas Zoat would have regarding a OL Paul inserted into the Inner Sphere of Battletech.

I was watching some e very good lore videos on Battletech, namely on the fall of the Star League and the start of the First Succession War.

So I'm wondering how Paul with a power ring would end the madness or create a secured area the Great Houses can't smash to pieces.

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Mechs are rediculous.

Yes, I said it.

It Warhammer 40,000 they work because the people literally don't know how to build anything better. Neo Genesis Evangelion works because they're magical living creatures with armour slapped on. Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann dials up the rediculous and doesn't care, so that's fine. Battletech on the other hand is simultaneously too serious and too stupid. You have mechs? I have aircraft with nuclear anti-mech missiles. You have dropships? I copied the Clans and built actual warships, and there went your economy.

 

[Lord Ernest]

By definition, Mammon is a god, more so than even other Goa'uld. A simple definition says that it's a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes. Paulmon with his ring can do even more than other Goa'uld claim to be able to and has demonstrated as such to Stargate command; in his first contact he transported those agents to his palace in an orange energy bubble, they should have reported that. They may correctly assume that it's because of some unknown form of technology, but sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic and they can't even begin to comprehend how he did or does those things.

He is not the Christian god nor has he claimed to be like him or his equivalent; in fact, unless something in Stargate lore says otherwise, that guy doesn't exist in the Stargate universe anyway!

"He's already asked if we could include some earl grey in the next trade package."

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Unless my memory fails me, Paulmon would probably ask for blackcurrant rather than any form of tea. Honestly, in that aspect, he's a disgrace to other British people.

Well, that's a good sign at least. "Well, you asked for teachers, not Intel operatives. That's what we gave you. Are you that surprised that one had opinions and made them known?"

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That was still really stupid of her. She should be aware of some of what Mammon is capable of, so mouthing off against him seems short sighted.

I don't want to risk Rule 8 so, as an example, if I was in Coruscant just working as a low level administrator I wouldn't be mentioning anywhere how the Emperor has a face like a scrotum or that I think Darth Vader sounds like he has dust in his respirator. I may have that opinion and I may even be right, besides Paulmon not being anywhere close to as evil as those guys are, but I still wouldn't say it because I don't know who's listening or even if those guys themselves can somehow know that I said it.

 

[Ina_Meishou]

Battletech on the other hand is simultaneously too serious and too stupid. You have mechs? I have aircraft with nuclear anti-mech missiles. You have dropships? I copied the Clans and built actual warships, and there went your economy.

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I mean, that's basically the entire context for the setting in existing lore.

The age of the Battlemech came around explicitly alongside the point where nukes and ortillery became severely restricted by interstellar treaty on account of too many worlds winding up cinders. And they persist largely on a combination of institutional/cultural inertia, a lack of capacity/knowledge to effectively retool, and so forth.

Much like 40K in miniature. "These were the terror tools/chivalrous toys of a bygone and more advanced age. But since we can sort of still build them, and we can't build the more effective stuff anymore, now this is how we war."

 

[Darko]

That was still really stupid of her. She should be aware of some of what Mammon is capable of, so mouthing off against him seems short sighted.

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Again, she's just a teacher, not a spy or soldier, so she may not necessarily be as disciplined as either of those.

And Mammon may not keep tabs on people all the time.

Plus she may not have said this in a lesson, but some other time and the little girl overheard her, so it's not like it was deliberate on her part.

 

[Vaermina]

By definition, Mammon is a god, more so than even other Goa'uld. A simple definition says that it's a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes. Paulmon with his ring can do even more than other Goa'uld claim to be able to and has demonstrated as such to Stargate command; in his first contact he transported those agents to his palace in an orange energy bubble, they should have reported that. They may correctly assume that it's because of some unknown form of technology, but sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic and they can't even begin to comprehend how he did or does those things.

He is not the Christian god nor has he claimed to be like him or his equivalent; in fact, unless something in Stargate lore says otherwise, that guy doesn't exist in the Stargate universe anyway!

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Less so then other Goa'uld, he can't bring the dead back to life.

 

[john doe 777]

I mean, I don't blame the show more than I blame US sensitivities back then. From what I recall, sometimes TV shows couldn't even mention the Christian god. I believe it's better now, with Christian mythology being more fair game for exploration and mockery; but religious groups still try to boycott shows that do so, I remember reading something to that effect about Good Omens for example.

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Main problem is that now Christian god is the only one being mocked and all others are off limits. With the exception of Greek gods for some reason

 

[Someguy Somewhere]

Mechs are rediculous.

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In every practical sense you are correct. Anything you could do with a battlemech you could do with conventional armor or aircraft for cheaper. About the only thing you can get away with is that with the neurohelmet interface you can get away crewing a machine with that level of firepower with a single crewman rather then a team you'd need something from modern day, and even that's a stretch since Battletech has the same equipment used in some tanks, and some mechs make room for a gunner seat.

The Pre Game history of the Age of War DID have full scale war using conventional weapons, complete with nuclear weapons where most arguments were won with warships and orbital supremacy. The abuse of both made warcrimes the norm to a point where the powers that be had enough and passed the Ares Conventions which dramatically restricted the ability to use those tools in the theatre of war moving forwards. At least until the Succession Wars kicked off, and folks nuked themselves back to the iron age for a few centuries, and got to the point where they couldn't actually fight like that any more because every time someone found or build such things they got wiped off the face of the planet.

But between the Conventions and the loss of tech, war downscaled to a point that you didn't fight to destroy, you fought to take and hold ground and resources. That slowed the losses of civilian life and habitable worlds, but also shifted funding and resources to tactical rather then strategic weapons. In this restricted form of warfare, the idea was now 'doing more with less'.

When the first battlemech, the Mackie, came out of what ever wild fever dream they had in the Terran Hegemony for maintaining their technological edge over the other powers in the galaxy, it's first demo was taking out a quartet of conventional battle tanks. That demo scared the piss out of all the Houses, and suddenly everyone was rushing out to steal the plans and make their own versions.

Then you came to the cultural side....mechwarriors were a new and crazy breed to be running these things, and they became the new Knights Errant of the feudal culture of the Innersphere, including a code of conduct, which again goes to the 'restricted' form of combat.

While the IS like to pick on Clanners for their Honour clouding their ability to fight an actual war, they're honestly nearly as bad, because using mechs is a point of Pride rather then effective warfighting.

Then the Word of Blake came in and started popping off Nukes again and we get right back to where we started.

 

[Steelplaza]

Undermining someone who is actively helping you out is fucking short-sighted. Especially since he has displayed abilities beyond any member of the "species" he is masquerading as. Remember, Paul is underselling his abilities as a Lantern deliberately. They have no counters I know of, and with the ring he can continuously refresh his body to emulate using a sarcophagus.

Fuck around and find out is a distinct possibility if they push too hard. You do NOT fuck with your tenuous ally in such a way; trying to sow generational discord so you can come in with your "Modern" ways and "make things better" it is fucking obnoxious considering Paulmon is not cruel or unjust.

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Strong emotions in the post. Whether or not this is true on the facts, for me the emotional valence is the other way. I'm not invested in the SI being able to continue to call himself a god, even if perhaps there are good reasons to continue the charade. I'm not going to get angry about it, like a slight on him is a slight on me as a reader or particularly empathize with him about it. Undermining him in this way was a strategically sloppy choice, but it wasn't offensive. It's hard for me to understand how you can read the chapter and do the posting equivalent of getting all red in the face and shouting "how dare you".

 

[gattsuru]

By definition, Mammon is a god, more so than even other Goa'uld. A simple definition says that it's a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes. Paulmon with his ring can do even more than other Goa'uld claim to be able to and has demonstrated as such to Stargate command; in his first contact he transported those agents to his palace in an orange energy bubble, they should have reported that. They may correctly assume that it's because of some unknown form of technology, but sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic and they can't even begin to comprehend how he did or does those things.

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To be fair, a lot of the Goa'uld system lords pretend they're a god for definitions that are more specifically wrong: omniscient, immortal-as-in-unkillable, to the extent they can't achieve anything they want reflects only the opposition of other 'gods'. That's actually (retconned into being) a big part of Teal'c's defection: that he was able to lie to Apophis and not be caught disproved the beliefs Apophis and Cronus had tried to teach him. There's a lower-level of god that would met their abilities, since they're still extremely strong, long-lived, have access to special tech, so on, but even Yu and Ba'al set their claims much higher than that.