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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

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RichardWhereat said:
Assuming that Darkseid can observe Grayven through the anti-life fragment, what do you think he'd have done back in DC-16 if he found out that 'Grayven' was just a human pretending to be his son?

Even if he couldn't view that, that's the kind of secret one person keeps, because two people knowing means Darkseid'd eventually find out.
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Darkseid was watching the entire time through Fatherbox so has known from the beginning.



Cherico said:
Theres always the possibility that OL mantled Graven so hard he became him.
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No... No there isn't... Because that's not actually a thing...
 
Mr Zoat said:
Might we prevail upon you to conduct yourself with greater patience and forbearance in future?"

"I'll-."

I was going to say 'I'll see what I can do', but…

"Yes. I will."
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Holy fuck, did actual character development for Grayven just actually happen!??!?!?!?!

Nice. Maybe in a dozen more years I won't be vaguely irritated whenever he's on-screen.
 
rkyeun said:
I think they can take him.
Rainbow Dash can outfly the Omega Beams so they turn back and hit Darkseid.
Pinkie Pie can... just... break reality through sheer stupidity, and shoot him with the Party Cannon.
Applejack can go one on one with Darkseid physically and buck him up, while tanking anything he dishes out.
Fluttershy can command the armies of magical animals with esoteric powers such as cockatrices to petrify Darkseid. Or maybe even lock him down with The Stare.
Rarity can make shields to protect others from Darkseid's attacks, while she breaks out the martial arts moves.
And Twilight Sparkle is an alicorn. They don't need more help.
And if that doesn't work, Celestia can hit him with the sun.
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Ok, while I admit I have no idea what the power levels for MLP:FiM are, having never watched it, I fear you are gravely underestimating Darkseid.



Unless your post was sarcastic.
 
Idkusername said:
Ok, while I admit I have no idea what the power levels for MLP:FiM are, having never watched it, I fear you are gravely underestimating Darkseid.

Unless your post was sarcastic.
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Nah, I've seen a couple of episodes, Pinkie Pie could take him. The power levels are vast, and her feats are beyond anything in DC.
 
desolatedsabers said:
what makes you think darkseid didn't already know? yes our grayven's metaphysique was the same, but it's still something that wasn't there until just before.
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Father box is the one that turned his soul into a copy of grayven. Darkseid knows for sure, because father box was reporting everything back to him.

Also pinkie could take darkseid in the same way bugs bunny could.
 
At first I thought it was trite, which made the eventual "oh shit" moment highly potent, which in turn made the win more satisfying.

I don't think the anti-life itself can be destroyed permanently like that, just someone's understanding/connection to it. Like you could destroy a lantern's ring, but that doesn't affect the existence of the Glow itself.
I'd compare Darksied giving part of the equation to Paul/Grayven to the way Hinon lost her connection to the orange light to create an orange ring.
 
thepsyborg said:
Holy fuck, did actual character development for Grayven just actually happen!??!?!?!?!

Nice. Maybe in a dozen more years I won't be vaguely irritated whenever he's on-screen.
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I mean he had a fairly similar moment of remorse and self-improvement after Darkseid's first appearance/visit to him, when he had to regain his emotional drives and stopped doing things like assimilating people, though after a while he seemed to fall into similar habits. We'll see how he does now.

I believe this episode is meant to take Sunset and everything Pony-related out of the story, but I'm kind of on-board for Renegade/Luna, even if they're just platonic colleagues. Transdimensional magic and cultural exchange could be interesting too, though that's already going on with Zerox and places- which reminds me, does Renegade have plans to contact Rama Khan in Jarhanpur? Teth Adom is around in his timeline now, and Circe has a non-zero chance of knowing something about it from mystic means or something (did the confrontation with Oggar happen off-screen or something? I don't remember a reference to it after the initial warning).
 
Redhawk said:
So Luna is the only one Grayven has told this secret to, right? Not even Jade knew if I recall correctly.
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Kinda, a significant amount of the Justice League and Scott and Barda kinda suspect it and renegade basically told them that they dont really want to know if he's really Grayven, since if hes not Eart is in even more danger from Apokalypse.
 
RichardWhereat said:
Nah, I've seen a couple of episodes, Pinkie Pie could take him. The power levels are vast, and her feats are beyond anything in DC.
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desolatedsabers said:
he's mostly shitposting, but depending on the episode pinkie is anything from fast as fuck, to a casual reality warper. so she could probably win.
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Agreed!! Pinkie on a good day = Peak Bugs Bunny who once used a regular saw to separate Florida from the rest of the USA.
 
Renegade Teth and the renegade may not be as close as the paragon and his version of Teth.
They may be working more closely than the paragon and paragon Teth, but are probably not as close friends.
Also he may have not mentioned Rama and Jarhanpur. He could have tried to see if it was still there, but not finding anything just assumed that it's gone like the paragon did.

I am sure that Zoat said that the anti life equation can even affect the white light but probably only when it is whole, though certain fragments could potentially affect it.
 
The Froggy Ninja said:
I Am Songs are a type of song rather than a specific one. They tend to be about introducing or affirming one's character and themes. Notable examples include Garnet's "Stronger Than You", Genie's "Friend Like Me" and, from MLP Pinkie's "Smile Song". Many Villain Songs take the form of I Am songs, though some take the form of I Want songs.
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At the end of Reboot, there's an in-universe summing up of the entire multi-series arc to the theme of Modern Major General.



More like that.
Chojin Patriarch said:
Brave Heart, Paul.
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That film nearly cost me a fifth of my country. Mel Gibson can breathe farts for the rest of his horrible, decietful, racist life.
Be honest, Mr Zoat, how far in advance did you have this moment planned out?:D Because it is awesome. Corny as hell, but that's entirely in the tone of the series.
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Honestly? I didn't. It just turned up when I wrote this segment.
Cherico said:
Theres always the possibility that OL mantled Graven so hard he became him.
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NO THERE ISN@T
 
Mantling is totally a thing here Mr Zoat said he didn't know what it meant and then that it wasn't intentional, but the actual description of what renegade-Paul did to become a god by claiming the name of someone who already exists, then somehow ended up taking that person's God Domain and getting memories of growing up As that person, on a planet that he had never actually been to...

That's a mantle. Renegade took graven's name and God role, and he took it that hard that his soul started to conform to that shape.

Even if god-roles aren't normally transferable like that and it only worked because rena-paul had no soul, carving his spirit to let him copy and replace and existing God Still fits the definition well enough that taking issue with the word is kinda pointless.

The defining point (to me, at least) is the part where he spontaneously got fake memories of graven's childhood by pretending to be him for long enough.

That swings it far enough that it just feels silly to deny it any longer.
 
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Darko said:
iamnuff raises a good point when he says what renegade did as being basically a textbook definition of mantling.
Though i'm not sure if it was Darkseid giving the orders to Fatherbox or if Fatherbox did it on his own or if it was automatic
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If you have the plans for a house and build another house just like it, you aren't 'mantling' the first house.
 
Still him getting the memories of the actual Grayven is extremely similar to what is defined as mantling.
He either has a spiritual connection to Grayven and is getting his memories or Father Box gave him those either on his own volition or on orders from Darkseid.
 
Ugh okay look. Mantling, from the Dresden Files from where it originates, or was codified, means raking over a role in a story-and-theme based power system such as the Fae Courts in the Dresden Files. The Roles from A Practical Guide to Evil fit mantling as well.

What Grayven did I'd not mantling. He made himself into a new god, except Father Box gave him a copy of Grayven soul. Kind of like uplaoding a backup on your new phone. This messed with his memories and behaviours, and this lead to him becoming the new god of conquest.

There's no mantling because new gods aren't set roles. You can usurp someone's power and domain, but ultimately it's going to be filtered through you. Hell, you can even have multiple gods of the same thing. I think Apokolips has like three minor gods of war right now, or something. Don't quote me on that tho, it's likely I read it in an old Black Lantern SI
 
Considering what the last chapter that sounded like suicide squad was like, the next chapter might just be an April Fool's prank chapter with no relevance. If not, perhaps will see a version of Paul who brought together a group that somehow KILLED all the New Gods, both from New Genesis and Apokolips. That would be really interesting to see.
 
Idkusername said:
There's no mantling because new gods aren't set roles. You can usurp someone's power and domain, but ultimately it's going to be filtered through you. Hell, you can even have multiple gods of the same thing. I think Apokolips has like three minor gods of war right now, or something. Don't quote me on that tho, it's likely I read it in an old Black Lantern SI
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Word of Zoat is that New Gods do not share domains, so not in this story.

In the comics, yes, for example the Forever People were collective the New Gods of Youth, but in the comics new god domains were meaningless puffery that meant jack and shit beyond impressing the easily impressed.

One of the Forever People for example, had the power of magnetism.

If you can figure out how being the god of youth gives one magnetic powers, you've obviously put way more thought into it than any of the DC writers did
 
Ngamer11 said:
Considering what the last chapter that sounded like suicide squad was like, the next chapter might just be an April Fool's prank chapter with no relevance. If not, perhaps will see a version of Paul who brought together a group that somehow KILLED all the New Gods, both from New Genesis and Apokolips. That would be really interesting to see.
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Yes, I should probably change the name.
 
Mr Zoat said:
If you have the plans for a house and build another house just like it, you aren't 'mantling' the first house.
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Cloning someone to make an exact copy, then using that copy to try to usurp them and take their power probably counts though.

The 'important' part of the whole 'mantle' idea (to me, anyway) is the part where you take on a role and that role actually effects you on a mental and spiritual level.
If you pretend to be someone to the point where you end up with their childhood memories, powers, domain and even their parents, then it's close enough that quibbling is kinda pointless.

Grayven stole some dude's identity so thoroughly that he has to occasionally remind himself that he didn't actually grow up on Apocalypse, and Darksied isn't his real dad.

I know that this settings metaphysics don't normally work with Mantle-rules, and that's perfectly fine, but there are exceptions where things that happen are close enough that the term still fits.

i'm pretty sure there's at least one silver-age storyline where Clark Kent has his entire identity as superman (not just his suit and his powers, but even his origin story about being from Kyrpton) stolen by someone else using 4th dimensional imp-magic or time-travel to retroactively make it so that they were always superman and he was always an ordinary human.
I'd say that that fits too, even though it doesn't usually work like that.

On the other hands, DC's gods might work like that. I could easily imagine a storyline where Wonderwoman beats up Ares and unintentionally ends up taking his title as the God of War. Eventually the role starts to effect her and make her more and more warlike until she goes evil, gets beat up by the justice league and has to renounce her godhood so she can go back to being Wonder Woman again.
I think Marvel's Gods already work like that. Sort of, anyway.

Back to Grayven though, it just amuses me how something like Identity Fraud because such a huge deal.
Also... like, he stole a dude's parents.
That's pretty low.

Like, what kind of a dirt bag thief you gotta be to steal someone's mom and dad?
Ah, if only Darksied wasn't a cunt. I might actually feel bad for his real son.
 
Idkusername said:
Ugh okay look. Mantling, from the Dresden Files from where it originates, or was codified, means raking over a role in a story-and-theme based power system such as the Fae Courts in the Dresden Files. The Roles from A Practical Guide to Evil fit mantling as well.

What Grayven did I'd not mantling. He made himself into a new god, except Father Box gave him a copy of Grayven soul. Kind of like uplaoding a backup on your new phone. This messed with his memories and behaviours, and this lead to him becoming the new god of conquest.

There's no mantling because new gods aren't set roles. You can usurp someone's power and domain, but ultimately it's going to be filtered through you. Hell, you can even have multiple gods of the same thing. I think Apokolips has like three minor gods of war right now, or something. Don't quote me on that tho, it's likely I read it in an old Black Lantern SI
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Mantling did not originate in the Dresden files. What we have here is a homophonic/namespace collision, because what Grayven is doing is very similar to mantling in the Elder Scrolls setting, where a character chooses to follow the path of an existing god long enough to acquire their power before slanting off in a direction of their own with it. Which has metaphysical implications for both the god being mantled and the person doing the mantling.

I believe that, even if we can say with any degree of certainty that this isn't what is actually happening, this is the source of the confusion because the form of mantling described in the FAQ and referencing the Dresden Files is not the form of mantling people are referring to when they talk about Paul mantling Grayven like Tiber Septim mantled Lorkhan to become Talos. The mantled god is not so much replaced (though that can happen in some cases because ES is very metaphysically messy) so much as used as a spark to kindle something new, and both mantle and mantler will tend to be altered in the process. Same word, same sound, and similar but pertinently different meaning and implications due to different metaphysical frameworks.

New Gods aren't set roles, and neither are the gods of the Elder Scrolls. The Eight/Nine Divines were not always the Divines before Saint Alessia imposed herself on them. Mannimarco seeks to mantle Molag Bal and usurp him as the God of the Undead, but not necessarily in any other capacity. And even if he succeeds (which it is implied he at least partially accomplished during the Warp in the West), it doesn't remove 'undeath' as a thing Molag Bal has power over.

So as I've said before, I believe this is where the confusion is coming from because Grayven looks an awful lot like he's mantling conquest in such a manner, even to the point of duplicating and expanding upon domains/embodied concepts without replacing the original entity he was impersonating.

If we can't understand that, we're just going to keep having this come up because people are going to keep not talking about the same thing past each other, and people are going to keep ignoring the FAQ when they make this connection because what's described in the FAQ doesn't describe what they're referencing.
 
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