With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

Zoat in the first chapter of 'Earths Orangest Hero' you wrote 'he's be... Thin' it should be 'he'd be... Thin'

Also in the next chapter I think it could be 'starts walking down the stairs' instead of just 'starts down the stairs' when Anna Marie walks down.

When Lord Protector kissed Khoah after getting back from Krona and saw that she had faith in him was he just reading her expression like an ordinary person, or was he using his empathetic powers to see the love she has for him, because I thought you said he can't read other emotions aside from fear?

Did Lord Protector charge his ring from the Lantern of another Yellow version before going back to Thunderra?

 

[Grimnar]

"I believe, Orange Lantern, that you have my husband's full attention."

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Hmm...

Is this going to be a theme? It sounds somewhat like Flash's talk with OL. I think there might have been some more Justice League members who also had other ominous statements regarding their attention.

 

[TheEyes]

Awk-Ward....

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I mean, it ought to be? Anyone from a Western background who actually knows the history of the Atlantean city-states would be somewhat disturbed by Orin's rather tone-deaf rulership. Yeah, fine, you didn't ask to be king and don't particularly want to be, but being a hero means that you've already accepted that the world isn't supposed to revolve around your ego (unless you're Batman), so frankly it really is not excusable that you don't know the history of the nation whose federal government you are head of state for.

I mean,do they not have any contact at all? How can Atlantis and Venturia have so little idea of what the other thinks?

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I don't think it's so much that Posidonis, in particular its diplomats, don't know the history of Venturia so much as their knowledge hasn't filtered its way past King Orin's decision to not care.

Is this going to be a theme? It sounds somewhat like Flash's talk with OL. I think there might have been some more Justice League members who also had other ominous statements regarding their attention.

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Yeah, there's a lot of blame to go around there. The Justice League are definitely a bunch of people who could stand to listen more, as opposed to issuing dictates from a position of ignorance, somewhat ironic considering that Batman is supposedly a good investigator, Flash is supposedly a criminalist, Wonder Woman is supposedly a diplomat and Superman is supposedly a reporter. On the other hand, for an empath Paul is remarkably bad at reading a room and displaying basic politeness and discretion, even when not doing so goes directly counter to his desires.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Yeah, there's a lot of blame to go around there. The Justice League are definitely a bunch of people who could stand to listen more, as opposed to issuing dictates from a position of ignorance, somewhat ironic considering that Batman is supposedly a good investigator, Flash is supposedly a criminalist, Wonder Woman is supposedly a diplomat and Superman is supposedly a reporter. On the other hand, for an empath Paul is remarkably bad at reading a room and displaying basic politeness and discretion, even when not doing so goes directly counter to his desires.

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Paul is only kinda-sorta an empath. He can see desires pretty well, but he's come to avoid doing that without permission--which kind of defeats the point of having such an ability. But he can only see the "colored" parts of the emotional spectrum, and only when they're significant. Since that doesn't include things like "discomfort", "awkwardness", "stress", "happiness", and more, it does leave him rather blind to certain things.

Still, he definitely doesn't seem to be sensing as much from people as he did earlier in the story, which is annoying.

 

[Darko]

I mean, it ought to be? Anyone from a Western background who actually knows the history of the Atlantean city-states would be somewhat disturbed by Orin's rather tone-deaf rulership. Yeah, fine, you didn't ask to be king and don't particularly want to be, but being a hero means that you've already accepted that the world isn't supposed to revolve around your ego (unless you're Batman), so frankly it really is not excusable that you don't know the history of the nation whose federal government you are head of state for.


I don't think it's so much that Posidonis, in particular its diplomats, don't know the history of Venturia so much as their knowledge hasn't filtered its way past King Orin's decision to not care.


Yeah, there's a lot of blame to go around there. The Justice League are definitely a bunch of people who could stand to listen more, as opposed to issuing dictates from a position of ignorance, somewhat ironic considering that Batman is supposedly a good investigator, Flash is supposedly a criminalist, Wonder Woman is supposedly a diplomat and Superman is supposedly a reporter. On the other hand, for an empath Paul is remarkably bad at reading a room and displaying basic politeness and discretion, even when not doing so goes directly counter to his desires.

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In fairness Orin probably only got his info on Venturia from non Venturias so he doesn't know all that much.

He also may have gotten incorrect info if he asked the Venturians since they don't like him all that much and may think it was just some odd power ploy to get power over them.

Also while Batman is a great investigator this whole thing with Venturia was happening under the sea and it may have been difficult for him to investigate. He is a skilled detective but his skills aren't Tattletale levels of bullshit.

Flash is a CSI guy not a detective. Despite what TV would tell you CSI guys just analyse the evidence and what it is, they don't question suspects or make arrests or any of those things aside from just analizing scientific evidence, like chemicals and blood, not societies, relationships or politics.

Wonder Woman is a diplomat, but she was not called in to deal with this issue since she probably doesn't know all that much about Atlantean society and they may not want her considering she fought Clea in the past. She does engage in diplomacy like when she dealt with Rama Khan wanting to take his heir to his home in a diplomatic matter. Yes she attacked first but Rama was in earth monster form and attacking people, but when she discovered the truth she immedeatly went into diplomat mode.

Superman may not be a investigative journalist so much as he is just a guy that reports on the community and the Superman stories he writes which don't involve that much investigation since he was there.

Paul is an empath but he doesn't look too deeply unless he has to because it makes him uncomfortable and he doesn't want to coddle people and solve all their problems if they can do it themselves. The reason he is acting in a more insubordinate manner now is because he isn't bound by a magic oath, has recourses aside from the League, knows that they are flawed people that can make bad decisions and he doesn't need to please them all that much so that they don't become suspicious of him and prevent him from killing Nabu.

They also may be hesitant to get rid of him since it would be more difficult to monitor him and influence him.

And even if his actions brought Khan to Earth he couldn't order him to leave since Khan was apparently doing his job as a ring wielder, if not all that greatly.

If he took his ring Khan could still try to trade with Earth and legally speaking he would be in the clear.

Other aliens are already interested in the Earth, like the Thanagarian. At least its peoples will now have some experience in dealing with alien an alien polity before they interact with the big boys.

He probably also brought Earth to the attention of aliens even before this episode.

He is the founder of the OLC and a lot of people may be interested in him now and his planet.

Before anyone starts bitching about this harming Earth society and how it's his fault do remember he also helped end more than one tyrannical government and freed billions from lives of slavery and worse. Earth finally getting its shit together seems like a fair price to pay.

Oh and aliens were interested in Earth even before he came along. The Thanagarian and Apokalyps. Not the greatest civilizations out there.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Zoat in the first chapter of 'Earths Orangest Hero' you wrote 'he's be... Thin' it should be 'he'd be... Thin'

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Thank you, corrected.

Also in the next chapter I think it could be 'starts walking down the stairs' instead of just 'starts down the stairs' when Anna Marie walks down.

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Where I'm from, 'starts' can mean 'begins travelling'.

When Lord Protector kissed Khoah after getting back from Krona and saw that she had faith in him was he just reading her expression like an ordinary person, or was he using his empathetic powers to see the love she has for him, because I thought you said he can't read other emotions aside from fear?

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I think I said that I was leaning towards no but hadn't decided. I suppose we could compromise on 'surface emotions only'.

Did Lord Protector charge his ring from the Lantern of another Yellow version before going back to Thunderra?

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No, but he's used to that

 

[Darko]

Can Paul see other emotions beyond their surface level, even though it's probably not to the same extent as an enlightened lantern of that color?

I think from previous posts that he can as he has made scans of people and looked for things other than avarice even when they probably weren't thinking or feeling that other emotion at the time.

If Lord Protector didn't recharge then it may be difficult for him to make a lantern if it takes a lot of ring charge.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Can Paul see other emotions beyond their surface level, even though it's probably not to the same extent as an enlightened lantern of that color?

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...

Which one?

I think from previous posts that he can as he has made scans of people and looked for things other than avarice even when they probably weren't thinking or feeling that other emotion at the time.

If Lord Protector didn't recharge then it may be difficult for him to make a lantern if it takes a lot of ring charge.

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He's going to try and do it in a meditative trance, so he'll be constantly regaining and losing power via his stone.

 

[Gantradies]

the question i have, is Orin "just" negligently/willfully ignorant about the people he's supposed to be ruling,
or is there some level of malice/game-playing involved somewhere on one side of the dispute-
i mean, sure there could be a classic "evil advisor" thing going on (or just a mundane leadership/statesmanship fail), but i could also see a busy idiot in the middle of things intentionally trying to stoke up the tension by....creatively altering messages in order to play peacemaker and make himself look better, like that idiot who started the Haven-Manticore war back up again >.<

 

[FreeGod]

the question i have, is Orin "just" negligently/willfully ignorant about the people he's supposed to be ruling,
or is there some level of malice/game-playing involved somewhere on one side of the dispute-
i mean, sure there could be a classic "evil advisor" thing going on (or just a mundane leadership/statesmanship fail), but i could also see a busy idiot in the middle of things intentionally trying to stoke up the tension by....creatively altering messages in order to play peacemaker and make himself look better, like that idiot who started the Haven-Manticore war back up again >.<

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The question is there a Sir Humphrey Appleby somewhere.

 

[Mr Zoat]

the question i have, is Orin "just" negligently/willfully ignorant about the people he's supposed to be ruling,
or is there some level of malice/game-playing involved somewhere on one side of the dispute-
i mean, sure there could be a classic "evil advisor" thing going on (or just a mundane leadership/statesmanship fail), but i could also see a busy idiot in the middle of things intentionally trying to stoke up the tension by....creatively altering messages in order to play peacemaker and make himself look better, like that idiot who started the Haven-Manticore war back up again >.<

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It's a combination of factors.

Orin doesn't grok Atlantean society. While he has made an effort to learn it, there are certain background assumptions that he doesn't understand or share.

With Orm out of the picture, there is no one evil advisor. However, there was a purge and a reshuffling of offices in the wake of his departure, and that resulted in a lot of people moving to new jobs and suffering the associated loss of institutional knowledge. Plus, everyone who's actually been to Venturia has retired or died.

Venturia has been in isolation for a long time, and there's been a certain amount of 'projection' in the estimates of the Poseidonis bureaucracy as they try to work out what's going on there. It isn't like on the surface in modern times where you can get people on the ground just about anywhere; the seas and the Atlantean habit of clustering in cities mean that it would be more like trying to plant an intelligence asset in a small village.

And the Manticore side of that mess was some of the worzellist straw manning that I've ever seen. I honestly could not believe that their government could have been elected by anyone.

 

[moralrelativity]

Where I'm from, 'starts' can mean 'begins travelling'.

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Same for me. It's a perfectly acceptable use of the word.

 

[Darko]

...

Which one?

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Any of the other colors aside from orange.

If you mean which enlightened lantern then Guy.

Can he see emotions that are not avarice or desire, but are love, hope, fear, will, compassion, rage, beyond just their surface and look deeper into them, even if it wouldn't be to the same extent as he could examine their avarice, or if he tried to see their will a bit more deeply than just the surface it wouldn't be to the same level as Guy?

For examples of him doing this I remember him scanning that meta human porn star who could only feel rage, fear and avarice, as well as him seeing Komand'r's hate for her sister when they sparred on Okaara after he rescued them and seeing that Ragnar has a lot of will and little fear.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Same for me. It's a perfectly acceptable use of the word.

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And it can also mean 'reacts with surprise'.

Any of the other colors aside from orange.

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Any of them can see their particular emotion at a level corresponding to their own mastery. The only ones I'm going to definitely confirm as being able to go further than that are the SI and Indigo.

If you mean which enlightened lantern then Guy.

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Guy isn't Paul. That's just crazy talk.

Can he see emotions that are not avarice or desire, but are love, hope, fear, will, compassion, rage, beyond just their surface and look deeper into them, even if it wouldn't be to the same extent as he could examine their avarice, or if he tried to see their will a bit more deeply than just the surface it wouldn't be to the same level as Guy?

For examples of him doing this I remember him scanning that meta human porn star who could only feel rage, fear and avarice, as well as him seeing Komand'r's hate for her sister when they sparred on Okaara after he rescued them and seeing that Ragnar has a lot of will and little fear.

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I'm taking a bunt on Guy as well.

 

[Darko]

OK can you just answer me if Paul can see other emotions, aside from avarice, deeper than just their surface level with a simple yes or no?

I know Lanterns can see their particular emotion in other people and indigos have access to the other lights.

 

[Ace Dreamer]

'Plutonian' is obviously about someone called Uranus, who's been struck by neutrons, turned into Neptune, then decayed into Plutonian.

(Origins of Plutonium.)

 

[Mr Zoat]

OK can you just answer me if Paul can see other emotions, aside from avarice, deeper than just their surface level with a simple yes or no?

I know Lanterns can see their particular emotion in other people and indigos have access to the other lights.

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The main SI can see the seven emotions of the spectrum at whatever level he cares to look to.

 

[Darko]

The main SI can see the seven emotions of the spectrum at whatever level he cares to look to.

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So he can see other emotions their beyond surface.

Thank you.

What about the white light of life and the black light of death, can he see beyond their surface level like the other seven lights?

 

[Mr Zoat]

So he can see other emotions their beyond surface.

Thank you.

What about the white light of life and the black light of death, can he see beyond their surface level like the other seven lights?

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Ah, yes, sorry. He can see those as well.

 

[Prince Charon]

It's a combination of factors.

Orin doesn't grok Atlantean society. While he has made an effort to learn it, there are certain background assumptions that he doesn't understand or share.

With Orm out of the picture, there is no one evil advisor. However, there was a purge and a reshuffling of offices in the wake of his departure, and that resulted in a lot of people moving to new jobs and suffering the associated loss of institutional knowledge. Plus, everyone who's actually been to Venturia has retired or died.

Venturia has been in isolation for a long time, and there's been a certain amount of 'projection' in the estimates of the Poseidonis bureaucracy as they try to work out what's going on there. It isn't like on the surface in modern times where you can get people on the ground just about anywhere; the seas and the Atlantean habit of clustering in cities mean that it would be more like trying to plant an intelligence asset in a small village.

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So, far less malice, far more incompetence and bad information.

Mind you, I would think that there would have been more evil advisors, or even greater incompetence, in previous generations (since the previous rulers did grow up in Atlantis, and should have understood things far better than Orin), because otherwise this situation wouldn't have gotten as bad as it is by this point.

Unfortunately for Orin, he isn't the sort of king who would blame all his mistakes on an 'evil advisor' that isn't totally or mostly to blame, like traditional monarchs (which was much of the point of giving viziers and royal favourites power, historically - to soak up the blame for bad decisions).

 

[Darko]

So, far less malice, far more incompetence and bad information.

Mind you, I would think that there would have been more evil advisors, or even greater incompetence, in previous generations (since the previous rulers did grow up in Atlantis, and should have understood things far better than Orin), because otherwise this situation wouldn't have gotten as bad as it is by this point.

Unfortunately for Orin, he isn't the sort of king who would blame all his mistakes on an 'evil advisor' that isn't totally or mostly to blame, like traditional monarchs (which was much of the point of giving viziers and royal favourites power, historically - to soak up the blame for bad decisions).

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One of his advisors may be a evil Atlantean goddess, or at least has her name.

 

[Prince Charon]

One of his advisors may be a evil Atlantean goddess, or at least has her name.

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I know, but look who I was replying to.

 

[Darko]

I know, but look who I was replying to.

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If you mean Orin not putting all the blame on an evil advisor then I could see it.

This whole evil God advising a ruler with bad advice isn't exactly new to this version of Earth.

McCarthy's personal priest was Glorious Godfrey.

Hell in a Life Ore Death interlude called DARKSEID IS several New God's give reports on how they're damaging various societies and one of them said that she has been spreading a drug habit among Almaracian nobility that is slowly weakening them and would make Maxima lose interest in the weakening males of her species.

 

[Gantradies]

It's a combination of factors.

Orin doesn't grok Atlantean society. While he has made an effort to learn it, there are certain background assumptions that he doesn't understand or share.

With Orm out of the picture, there is no one evil advisor. However, there was a purge and a reshuffling of offices in the wake of his departure, and that resulted in a lot of people moving to new jobs and suffering the associated loss of institutional knowledge. Plus, everyone who's actually been to Venturia has retired or died.

Venturia has been in isolation for a long time, and there's been a certain amount of 'projection' in the estimates of the Poseidonis bureaucracy as they try to work out what's going on there. It isn't like on the surface in modern times where you can get people on the ground just about anywhere; the seas and the Atlantean habit of clustering in cities mean that it would be more like trying to plant an intelligence asset in a small village.

And the Manticore side of that mess was some of the worzellist straw manning that I've ever seen. I honestly could not believe that their government could have been elected by anyone.

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And throw in all the Metaphorical Fires he's constantly having to put out personally as a member of the League... yeah, makes sense...

to be ENTIRELY fair, from memory they actually weren't-Elected, I mean-Fully agree the only thing that administration was missing was the moustaches...
Makes you wonder just what the High Ridge's HAD in the family blackmail archive...

 

[hkim]

And throw in all the Metaphorical Fires he's constantly having to put out personally as a member of the League... yeah, makes sense...

to be ENTIRELY fair, from memory they actually weren't-Elected, I mean-Fully agree the only thing that administration was missing was the moustaches...
Makes you wonder just what the High Ridge's HAD in the family blackmail archive...

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(The actual answer is that Weber isn't that good a writer)

 

[Mr Zoat]

to be ENTIRELY fair, from memory they actually weren't-Elected, I mean-Fully agree the only thing that administration was missing was the moustaches...
Makes you wonder just what the High Ridge's HAD in the family blackmail archive...

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On one side, you have the people who just won a major war.

On the other, you have the people who didn't just win a major war.

That should have been the House of Commons done. They could blackmail their way into a Lords majority, but without the Commons they wouldn't be able to pass legislation.

 

[nick012000]

On one side, you have the people who just won a major war.

On the other, you have the people who didn't just win a major war.

That should have been the House of Commons done. They could blackmail their way into a Lords majority, but without the Commons they wouldn't be able to pass legislation.

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I'm not familiar with the Honor Harrington series, other than bits about its technology and the fact its main character is a Mary Sue, but I'll point out that it's plausible that a political party might win a majority based on domestic issues, even if the other party recently won a major war.

 

[Coda]

Quake-master

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Zoat in the first chapter of 'Earths Orangest Hero' you wrote 'he's be... Thin' it should be 'he'd be... Thin'

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Pro tip: You can quote a post from earlier in the thread or for the story-only thread so you don't have to try to describe where the correction is. The quote box ends up having a link directly to the post that needs attention.

 

[Mr Zoat]

I'm not familiar with the Honor Harrington series, other than bits about its technology and the fact its main character is a Mary Sue, but I'll point out that it's plausible that a political party might win a majority based on domestic issues, even if the other party recently won a major war.

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Oh, certainly. That happened in both the US and the UK after WWII. Except that the problem with writing a Mary Sue whom everyone adores except the villains is that there's no conceivable reason for a majority of the population to vote against her party. And from what I remember being explained about the other party's policies they were basically the same as the non-evil party's, except slightly less militant. It was as if Clement Attlee decided that Britain didn't need to occupy Germany or hold war crimes trials and openly boasted about it.

 

[PDV]

The SI hasn't reread it since getting perfect memory

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Oceania is a term that's actually used for a geographical area; Oceana isn't. Given Eurasia/Eastasia being real terms, I think he'd notice the error. Also, how would you even pronounce 'Oceana' that doesn't sound like it should be spelled Oceania?