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With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

I guess if English food was worse than it is today, people would go to Indian restaurants instead of going to... Indian restaurants. ;)
To be fair, English food culture was better before two world wars and the rationing they required (and the Labour government in the late 1940s shooting themselves in the foot by extending rationing long past the point where it was needed) ruined everything. Victorian and Edwardian food (for the upper classes) was pretty nice.
 
Well, if the energy is being channeled into the bleed it's not so much being "destroyed" as much as changed/relocated outside the universe. I suppose it just depends on your perspective.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from divinity?

If they don't know the energy is being shunted to another dimension, then it would look like it was being erased, much like a bleed torsion generator would look like it was creating energy ex nihilo.
 
Partially correct, as what you described is one type of shock, but partially Incorrect because pain does cause shock.

Next time you come to an internet fight, at least do a cursory google of the subject.
I listed off two types of shock, not just one. And I wasn't wrong when I said that shock isn't a pain response -- pain can cause neurogenic shock through nervous system overload (that much is understood even if we don't quite get how it works), and indeed neurogenic shock is the variation I said was most likely. But pain does not directly cause the physiological effects of shock. Systemic hypoxia does that, and we understand systemic hypoxia pretty well. The effects of shock are consistent no matter how it happens, and it takes time between the onset of hypoxia and loss of consciousness.

We also know from plenty of historical examples that amputations don't necessarily result in shock. They CAN, for sure, but it's nowhere close to guaranteed.

EDIT: Still, I got a "partially correct" acknowledgement out of Vae. That's a pretty rare acknowledgement.
 
It's a pity Klarion is dead and gone. I would have liked to see Beluah having FINALLY gotten her revenge on her kinslaying younger brother by working him to death again as a fully conscious grundyman.
 
How much at this point should be questionable.

After all, he just had a big part of his body destroyed, and hasn't been able to get them looked over by an expert since Constantine disappeared.

There is that woman in London who helped him with them, and Zatanna said that she understood what they did and how they worked and could improve them during the Judgement Day episode.
 
There is that woman in London who helped him with them, and Zatanna said that she understood what they did and how they worked and could improve them during the Judgement Day episode.
Neither of which were the person who actually created the Tattoo, so would be of questionable reliability in concerns to it.
 
Neither of which were the person who actually created the Tattoo, so would be of questionable reliability in concerns to it.

The woman in London actually helped put the tattoos on him, and she has decades, maybe even centuries, of experience.

Zatanna also has an extensive education in magic and spent months with Constantine.

Both of them are extremely reliable in concern to it.
 
The woman in London actually helped put the tattoos on him, and she has decades, maybe even centuries, of experience.

Zatanna also has an extensive education in magic and spent months with Constantine.

Both of them are extremely reliable in concern to it.
Wrong tattoo's, you are thinking of soul forming one's not the Warding.
 
I think she also did those, and even if she didn't there is still Zatanna.

Plus OL also has other magical contacts that can figure out how it works.
The Warding Tattoo was both done and invented solely by Constantine.

And that's highly unlikely given Constantine is the magical equivalent of a Super Genius.
 
The Warding Tattoo was both done and invented solely by Constantine.

And that's highly unlikely given Constantine is the magical equivalent of a Super Genius.

John's intelligent, but I don't think he's really a genius when it comes to magic.

His - 14 self may be, but I don't think Earth 16 John is.

Most of his intellect is in his cunning, not academics.

OL also has contacts in Atlantis, a magically advanced civilization, to help him with his magical matters, and one of its members, Sephtian, made something that can bind a Lord of Chaos, so OL has some magically inclined geniuses on his side.

John could have also just told him how they work.
 
Well, if the energy is being channeled into the bleed it's not so much being "destroyed" as much as changed/relocated outside the universe. I suppose it just depends on your perspective.

Pity that Zoat didn't make it the Quantum Field instead- Energy and matter are created and destroyed there.

Word of Greg even mentions that Captain Atom is linked to the Quantum Field as per comics.
 
Pity that Zoat didn't make it the Quantum Field instead- Energy and matter are created and destroyed there.

Word of Greg even mentions that Captain Atom is linked to the Quantum Field as per comics.
Basically, because the bleed is a purely comics thing while quantum has an actual physics meaning.
 
Pity that Zoat didn't make it the Quantum Field instead- Energy and matter are created and destroyed there.
If you're trying to refer to real-world physics, the most robust theories we have right now say that even at the quantum level that mass-energy is conserved within the context of a four-dimensional spacetime. If there's an exception, it's not at the quantum scale, it's at the other end -- the relativistic scale. Conservation of mass-energy holds in special relativity, but there are nitpicky edge cases in the math where it's not clear if it's necessarily true in general relativity across the whole of the universe. (And when I say "nitpicky" I mean it's oddball considerations like "is it really considered 'conserved' if some mass were to travel back in time?" or "if the universe is actually infinite is it even a meaningful thing to define?" rather than there being any hypothetical cases of direct local violation.)
 
Otherworld (part 12)
1st May
18:04 GMT -5


Leonid watches as I finish transmuting another box of crumbler ammunition as we both continue to ignore the.. buzzing sound that Mr Yao has been making for the past five hours.

"Would that work?"

"They're my go-to option for hard-to-kill targets when constructs don't work." I glance up at him. "No guarantees."

"Of course." He pauses briefly. "Do you think I should have brought my spaceship?"

"Not without knowing how it would interact with the witch-path. And you'd have had trouble fitting it into the basement with the machine."

"We could borrow Atom's white dwarf fragment." He glances up at the sky, though the local white dwarf is over the horizon. "Should we get him more?"

"I don't.. think that what Atom has is actually a piece of a white dwarf in any literal sense. And I can just make electron-degenerate matter if he really wants some."

I haven't spent much time looking into Dr Palmer's work. It's a bit like superspeed; so absurdly broken if applied in a military context that I'm hesitating to put it into wider circulation. Dr Dane's formula would be far safer, though… Far less useful, even if I could get it.

"Are you prepared to sell this 'electron-degenerate matter'?"

"Sell commercially?" I send the bullet box into subspace and sit up to look at him. "No."

"The Russian Federation does not want certain technologies to spread. My government could give people super speed at any time, but we do not do so. We respect the balance of power."

"And if I gave you some electron-degenerate matter, you'd only have as much as I gave you, and you want me to believe that your superiors would… Just make a couple of shrink systems and then stop, the same as they did for the Garrick Formula."

He nods. "Yes. The Star Wars defence system increased tension between Russia and America because it could prevent Russian nuclear missile hitting America while American missiles could still hit Russia. Russia has no desire to expand its borders by force, but in such a situation it is logical to attack because the primary deterrent is about to be rendered useless. When the radar stations they would use for tracking were removed, relations improved."

"I suspect that my 'colleagues' in the Great Ten would also appreciate a sample." Mr Yao glances back at us. "If the balance of power is being preserved."

"The United States government doesn't have shrink technology. Giving it to Russian and Chinese governments doesn't preserve the balance of power, particularly given that I don't own the technology. Unlike Mister Garrick, Atom has never acted as an agent of the American government. So when it comes to this sort of technology I'm afraid that my answer hasn't changed; create a planetary defence force and I'll equip it, but I'm not supplying individual armies." Hm. "Except Themyscira, because they've got a three thousand year long peace record and won't use it anyway."

Leonid shrugs. "I will pass that on. I am curious. What would a 'planetary defence force' look like?"

"Like a unified planetary military created for the purpose of, one, defending the Earth from external threats and, two, defending human expansion off Earth."

"The Russian space program is currently the most advanced in the world. And my ship can fly in space without-" He glances at Mr. Yao. "-causing me to melt."

Mr Yao shakes his head. "I do not want Orange Lantern to share this technology with China. I simply wish to preserve the balance of power along the border between our countries, and that requires that neither of our countries get it."

"Normally I'd say that's the sort of attitude that's keeping humanity back, but in this case I think it's the sort of attitude that's keeping us from nuking ourselves." I look from Leonid to Mr. Yao. "I… Thought that the issues on your border were resolved."

Mr Yao nods. "They are. And we both want to make sure that they stay resolved. If one side gains an advantage… Sometimes, these things change. But since you are not supplying anyone, it does not matter."

"So… No one's going for the EDF idea?"

Mr. Yao looks away. "It is… Doubtful. I assume that the technology you would provide would be for 'EDF' use only, and not supplied to participating countries?"

"Absolutely."

"If you want a formally informal answer, I will ask my superiors. But it seems unlikely to me that the People's Republic of China would be interested in such a thing."

"The Russian government may be prepared to agree not to use such devices on Earth. Recent events have led people to reconsider space security."

"Please inform them that I am disinclined to be negotiated down."

I take the small sample of possibly-Sheeda blood that I scraped off my armour out of subspace and take another crack at it. More because I don't particularly want them to carry on trying to bid for technology that I'm not selling than because I think I'll learn anything new this time, but hopefully they'll get the hint.

"Be you able to decipher some secret from their blood?"

"No. Not really. I can't even tell whether or not our attackers were true Sheeda or your atavistic cousins, because Sheeda are essentially humans."

Abednego frowns. "I-. I do not understand. Are they not some other species?"

"Oh. I'm sorry, I hadn't realised that it wasn't common knowledge here. No, Sheeda are humans from the far future."

He grimaces. "What horror could have befallen them to turn men into that?"

"We don't know. The Huntsman didn't say, and I haven't met any intelligent Sheeda."

"Yon man who spent time in their lands. Could he not find the truth of it?"

"He probably could have done, but he was fighting for his life and scrabbling for enough food and water to keep himself alive. He didn't really have the opportunity to study their history."

And he… Honestly wouldn't have been inclined to. If the idea even occurred to him.

Nothing here immediately puts me in mind of another species… Or rather, there are things in their blood that also exist in other species, but it doesn't look like the result of interbreeding or a simple graft. Really, I'm.. more surprised by how much 'human' there is. It certainly makes sense to me that a being like this could have children with a human without medical intervention. If this is designed rather than the product of however millions of years of natural change, I'd assume that it was deliberate. Do they..? Come to the past to pick up breeding stock as well as technology and raw materials? If so… Why? Is their population inbred? Was there a disaster which hurt their genetic diversity?

What the heck turned us into these things?

Abednego pulls the horses to a halt and dismounts, witch-signs glowing over his hands as he walks towards a standing stone.

"A moment, goodfellows."

"What is it?"

"A way to inform those we would visit that we do so in peace." Glyphs light up over the stone as he runs his hands over them. "I think it best that there be no more surprises on either side. And if they are not willing to treat with us, I'd druther know now."
 
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Maybe 'surprises'

His speech makes this difficult.

Nothing here immediately puts me in mind of another species… Or rather, there are things in their blood that also exist in other species, but it doesn't look like the result of interbreeding or a simple graft. Really, I'm.. more surprised by how much 'human' there is. It certainly makes sense to me that a being like this could have children with a human without medical intervention. If this is designed rather than the product of however millions of years of natural change, I'd assume that it was deliberate. Do they..? Come to the past to pick up breeding stock as well as technology and raw materials? If so… Why? Is their population inbred? Was there a disaster which hurt their genetic diversity?

All possible.

Another possibility is that they're just evil bastards that enjoy enslaving and raping people.
 
Paul once again casually shaking the foundations of a society with new/old information.

The discussion was interesting. Balance of power is...difficult at best when it's about expensive, complex wargear.

When there are individuals that can by themselves challenge entire countries it should become impossible, I think.

Unless the countries unite against such a common threat.

An Ozymandias scenario.
 
"I don't.. think that what Atom has is actually a piece of a white dwarf in any literal sense. And I can just make electron-degenerate matter if he really wants some."
It's very specifically the Heart of a White Dwarf Star.

So your copied electron-degenerate matter wouldn't do anything except explode with the force of a bomb.
 
Dumb question, but are we sure that the world he's in isn't a pocket dimension ? Something like a DnD Demiplane ? Or a close enough dimension ? Because it cannot be a parallel universe.

Also EDF won't form unless OL forms it for them.
 
1st May
18:04 GMT -5


Leonid watches as I finish transmuting another box of crumbler ammunition as we both continue to ignore the.. buzzing sound that Mr Tao has been making for the past five hours.
Maintaining a passive detection aura, even though it's unlikely to find them? Sensible comfort, at least. Good to see OL working to make up for his loss of inventory.

"Would that work?"

"They're my go-to option for hard-to-kill targets when constructs don't work." I glance up at him. "No guarantees."
And if they don't work, there's always plain cold-forged iron to try. I assume that'd have some effect on the Sheeda... Besides the effect a railgun slug has on anything unprotected.

"Of course." He pauses briefly. "Do you think I should have brought my spaceship?"

"Not without knowing how it would interact with the witch-path. And you'd have had trouble fitting it into the basement with the machine."
I mean, how big is it, car-sized? But it's probably not a good idea to mix technologies... Could result in all manner of space wedgies.

"We could borrow Atom's white dwarf fragment." He glances up at the sky, though the local white dwarf is over the horizon. "Should we get him more?"

"I don't.. think that what Atom has is actually a piece of a white dwarf in any literal sense. And I can just make electron-degenerate matter if he really wants some."
As long as you don't go too nuts. One thing I've learnt from Taylor Varga: EDM is massively heavy. As in near neutronium levels. Unless you use magic to mess with its mass. Assuming both are the same kind.

I haven't spent much time looking into Dr Palmer's work. It's a bit like superspeed; so absurdly broken if applied in a military context that I'm hesitating to put it into wider circulation. Dr Dane's formula would be far safer, though… Far less useful, even if I could get it.
Yeah... Atom's got the edge in smallest size, but at least Doll-man's doesn't require a chunk of weird matter to use. And you'd be amazed where you can get into when you're the size of a High-Grade Gunpla with the strength of twenty men...

"Are you prepared to sell this 'electron-degenerate matter'?"

"Sell commercially?" I send the bullet box into subspace and sit up to look at him. "No."
There's also the consideration of working with it. EDM is not particularly easy to tool. In TV, it's usually created in the necessary shapes needed.

"The Russian Federation does not want certain technologies to spread. My government could give people super speed at any time, but we do not do so. We respect the balance of power."

"And if I gave you some electron-degenerate matter, you'd only have as much as I gave you, and you want me to believe that your superiors would… Just make a couple of shrink systems and then stop, the same as they did for the Garrick Formula."
Well, they might make more, but they'd try to keep it quiet. They only deep-sixed the Garrick formula project because it constantly failed to produce reliable results...

He nods. "Yes. The Star Wars defence system increased tension between Russia and America because it could prevent Russian nuclear missile hitting America while American missiles could still hit Russia. Russia has no desire to expand its borders by force, but in such a situation it is logical to attack because the primary deterrent is about to be rendered useless. When the radar stations they would use for tracking were removed, relations improved."
Stupid, stupid military logic. "Oh, our weapons are about to be useless? Better use them to wipe out half of humanity now!" Thank goodness wiser minds prevailed...

"I suspect that my 'colleagues' in the Great Ten would also appreciate a sample." Mr Yao glances back at us. "If the balance of power is being preserved."

"The United States government doesn't have shrink technology. Giving it to Russian and Chinese governments doesn't preserve the balance of power, particularly given that I don't own the technology. Unlike Mister Garrick, Atom has never acted as an agent of the American government. So when it comes to this sort of technology I'm afraid that my answer hasn't change; create a planetary defence force and I'll equip it, but I'm not supplying individual armies." Hm. "Except Themyscira, because they've got a three thousand year long peace record and won't use it anyway."
Of course, even they've had moments of madness in the comics... I doubt they'd pull the same shit here, no reason to do so.

Leonid shrugs. "I will pass that on. I am curious. What would a 'planetary defence force' look like?"

"Like a unified planetary military created for the purpose of, one, defending the Earth from external threats and, two, defending human expansion off Earth."
And not interfering in internal or international affairs. Too bad it'd take some major disaster to put humanity into a mindset where they'd accept that level of teamwork...

"The Russian space program is currently the most advanced in the world. And my ship can fly in space without-" He glances at Mr. Tao. "-causing me to melt."

Mr Tao shakes his head. "I do not want Orange Lantern to share this technology with China. I simply wish to preserve the balance of power along the border between our countries, and that requires that neither of our countries get it."
Sensible logic. No doubt he'll conveniently 'forget' to mention this discussion to his Chinese handlers. No point tempting them...

"Normally I'd say that's the sort of attitude that's keeping humanity back, but in this case I think it's the sort of attitude that's keeping us from nuking ourselves." I look from Leonid to Mr. Tao. "I… Thought that the issues on your border were resolved."

Mr Tao nods. "They are. And we both want to make sure that they stay resolved. If one side gains an advantage… Sometimes, these things change. But since you are not supplying anyone, it does not matter."
Eminently sensible. Now if only guys like him were in charge of the world...

"So… No one's going for the EDF idea?"

Mr. Tao looks away. "It is… Doubtful. I assume that the technology you would provide would be for 'EDF' use only, and not supplied to participating countries?"

"Absolutely."
Which the participating countries would be yelling about from minute one. So unless the UN can manage to hammer out something, or someone makes a private equivalent...

"If you want a formally informal answer, I will ask my superiors. But it seems unlikely to me that the People's Republic of China would be interested in such a thing."

"The Russian government may be prepared to agree not to use such devices on Earth. Recent events have led people to reconsider space security."
Well, at least someone hasn't suffered aesop amnesia concerning Earth's interplanetary security.

"Please inform them that I am disinclined to be negotiated down."

I take the small sample of possibly-Sheeda blood that I scraped off my armour out of subspace and take another crack at it. More because I don't particularly want them to carry on trying to bid for technology that I'm not selling than because I think I'll learn anything new this time, but hopefully they'll get the hint.

"Be you able to decipher some secret from their blood?"

"No. Not really. I can't even tell whether or not our attackers were true Sheeda or your atavistic cousins, because Sheeda are essentially humans."
Oh, sure, just drop that bomb on him. :rolleyes: Typical OL.

Abednego frowns. "I-. I do not understand. Are they not some other species?"

"Oh. I'm sorry, I hadn't realised that it wasn't common knowledge here. No, Sheeda are humans from the far future."
For a given definition of human, anyway. What with their own cultivation of an elvish image.

He grimaces. "What horror could have befallen them to turn men into that?"

"We don't know. The Huntsman didn't say, and I haven't met any intelligent Sheeda."
Probably something to be thankful for. It would be highly unpleasant, I bet.

"Yon man who spent time in their lands. Could he not find the truth of it?"

"He probably could have done, but he was fighting for his life and scrabbling for enough food and water to keep himself alive. He didn't really have the opportunity to study their history."

And he… Honestly wouldn't have been inclined to. If the idea even occurred to him.
After all, you don't need to know someone's history to kill them. I'd honestly be amazed if the Sheeda even cared about it, beyond a cursory backstory.

Nothing here immediately puts me in mind of another species… Or rather, there are things in their blood that also exist in other species, but it doesn't look like the result of interbreeding or a simple graft. Really, I'm.. more surprised by how much 'human' there is. It certainly makes sense to me that a being like this could have children with a human without medical intervention. If this is designed rather than the product of however millions of years of natural change, I'd assume that it was deliberate. Do they..? Come to the past to pick up breeding stock as well as technology and raw materials? If so… Why? Is their population inbred? Was there a disaster which hurt their genetic diversity?
I figure there was a period (or multiple periods) of intensive gene-modding throughout their history. They might well have been engineered for their fey appearance, while keeping that intercompatibility with other 'humans' for convenience.

What the heck turned us into these things?

Abednego pulls the horses to a halt and dismounts, witch-signs glowing over his hands as he walks towards a standing stone.
Hmm... Marking a checkpoint? Calling ahead via the metaphysical equivalent of ringing a doorbell?

"A moment, goodfellows."

"What is it?"

"A way to inform those we would visit that we do so in peace." Glyphs light up over the stone as he runs his hands over them. "I think it best that there be no more surprised on either side. And if they are not willing to treat with us, I'd druther know now."
Might save a couple of days, though there's still the matter of the Sheeda critters attacking travellers to worry about.

The things you end up talking about on long drives. Amusing to hear EDM mentioned after reading Tayor Varga... I can't remember, have we even seen the Atom in story yet? I don't feel like doing another archive crawl right now, I've already got like five or six story threads open for reading across the Big Three...
 
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Maintaining a passive detection aura, even though it's unlikely to find them? Sensible comfort, at least. Good to see OL working to make up for his loss of inventory.

And if they don't work, there's always plain cold-forged iron to try. I assume that'd have some effect on the Sheeda... Besides the effect a railgun slug has on anything unprotected.


I mean, how big is it, car-sized? But it's probably not a good idea to mix technologies... Could result in all manner of space wedgies.


As long as you don't go too nuts. One thing I've learnt from Taylor Varga: EDM is massively heavy. As in near neutronium levels. Unless you use magic to mess with its mass. Assuming both are the same kind.


Yeah... Atom's got the edge in smallest size, but at least Doll-man's doesn't require a chunk of weird matter to use. And you'd be amazed where you can get into when you're the size of a High-Grade Gunpla with the strength of twenty men...


There's also the consideration of working with it. EDM is not particularly easy to tool. In TV, it's usually created in the necessary shapes needed.


Well, they might make more, but they'd try to keep it quiet. They only deep-sixed the Garrick formula project because it constantly failed to produce reliable results...


Stupid, stupid military logic. "Oh, our weapons are about to be useless? Better use them to wipe out half of humanity now!" Thank goodness wiser minds prevailed...


Of course, even they've had moments of madness in the comics... I doubt they'd pull the same shit here, no reason to do so.


And not interfering in internal or international affairs. Too bad it'd take some major disaster to put humanity into a mindset where they'd accept that level of teamwork...


Sensible logic. No doubt he'll conveniently 'forget' to mention this discussion to his Chinese handlers. No point tempting them...


Eminently sensible. Now if only guys like him were in charge of the world...


Which the participating countries would be yelling about from minute one. So unless the UN can manage to hamemr out something, or someone makes a private equivalent...


Well, at least someone hasn't suffered aesop amnesia concerning Earth's interplanetary security.




Oh, sure, just drop that bomb on him. :rolleyes: Typical OL.


For a given definition of human, anyway. What with their own cultivation of an elvish image.


Probably something to be thankful for. It would be highly unpleasant, I bet.


After all, you don't need to know someone's history to kill them. I'd honestly be amazed if the Sheeda even cared about it, beyond a cursory backstory.


I figure there was a period (or multiple periods) of intensive gene-modding throughout their history. They might well have been engineered for their fey appearance, while keeping that intercompatibility with other 'humans' for convenience.


Hmm... Marking a checkpoint? Calling ahead via the metaphysical equivalent of ringing a doorbell?


Might save a couple of days, though there's still the matter of the Sheeda critters attacking travellers to worry about.

The things you end up talking about on long drives. Amusing to hear EDM mentioned after reading Tayor Varga... I can't remember, have we even seen the Atom in story yet? I don't feel like doing another archive crawl right now, I've already got like five or six story threads open for reading across the Big Three...

OL talked to Atom about the Nabu thing after the Hell episode.

Renegade also talked with him when he explained the Sheeda.
 

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