With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Fourteen)

[Darko]

I love how Paul just says it's not his problem. He said it before with Aqualad, and he is sticking with it.

I hope the Tillettit thing is just handled offscreen so that we can see how little of a threat the thing was. I also bet that this might make the locals like/revere Paul a little more if he can lead a team to kill what might be their God or Devil. Probably won't make the people from that planet stop calling him "Lord". The Atlantean thing however might make things difficult with his Atlantean friends, assuming he doesn't find a solution that everyone can find tolerable.

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A good solution to this would be making Cyprian King of Venturia, but having the place continue being an Atlantean state.

Interesting, I wonder if this is a chicken and egg type situation? The priesthood justifies mutilating their females by the decree of this god-like being, or that the long term belief of the ordinary people in there being a reason for the mutilation created their demon-god? Because the latter? That's all the reason necessary to end the tradition violently.

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Good point.

Zoat did say that with enough belief people can create an Old God, or at least a powerful mystic entity, so the collective belief of an entire continent, plus the eyeball sacrifices and the fact the planet is mystically active could lead to them making a god that previously just existed in their mythology.

 

[Darko]

Something that still bothers me about how OL handled that situation with the eyeball cutters. He has recruited and allied himself with people who are far, far worse than any individual priest from that religion, except for maybe some of the people in the higher echelons of the religion. And yet he helped wholesale slaughter them down to even the lowliest acolyte.

Don't get me wrong, that practice needed to fucking stop, the vast majority of the priests probably deserved to be slaughtered, and I can see OL stopping it even if he wasn't getting anything out of it, but it really does seem like he went with the more extreme and violent way so he could get more recruits.

It's specifically the "down to the lowliest acolyte" or however it was described before. Every single member, no matter how new or whether they were pushed into it by family or some other kind of factor even if they hadn't done anything yet, deserved to be slaughtered? OL has aided and allied himself with people who have, individually, done far, far worse things than any one priest could have possible done. Not worse than the religion as a whole, and obviously the religion needed to fucking be stomped out, but this still feels weird to me in how it was handled.

We weren't given enough information on the species and the religion for me to be comfortable saying that wholesale slaughter was warranted. It may very well have been warranted, but it just seems weird based on OL's usual way of doing things.

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OL isn't exactly a rational person all the time.

His enlightenment does make him a bit focused on certain emotions more than others.

He recruited the likes of Kalmin because he needed someone who could make rings if he couldn't with the Controllers.

If he didn't need Kalmin he would have probably killed him to deprive the Qwardians of a skilled Weaponer and one that can make power rings.

He also got two new recruits from that planet, one of the women and her daughter.

He may have found it difficult to stop them from killing the priesthood if they wanted to.

Remember he wanted to get their loyalty and service in the OLC so he let them kill the priests thinking that if the victims of his new recruits slaughter are priests that cripple their people then they can go hang.

The priests, unlike Kalmin, also didn't help him in any way.

The religion was also apparently an important part of their society so even if they left just one priest alive they could potentially convince people to continue their practices.

 

[Viterbi]

The thing about the covenant: As far as I can tell, the priests got absolutely jack shit out of their end of the bargain. I'm sure they thought they were getting something. Whatever it was, even without subscribing to ethics that demand you Walk Away From Omelas, it could not possibly have been worth what they did. The simple fact that OL could wipe out their entire civilization with a single decision demonstrated that. Morally and ethically, the overwhelming majority of frameworks say that the covenant was wrong and OL was right to tear it down. Practically, it was a shitty, shitty covenant and the fact that it died so horribly was a simple consequence of its shittasticness.

 

[Chojin Patriarch]

Can you give me a link, please? I seem to remember she okayed it for use.

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From the Story Only: 'Rapprochement'. It's a small throwaway line.
In the early chapters of 'Hoard', OL teleports from Maltus to Earth with Hinon. She checks him over for 'Avarice overspill' that he was concerned about thanks to Boss Smiley's manipulation. As far as I could tell, that's what she was okaying. In fact, she seems a little concerned on exit... My best efforts can't find anything else...

Wait, did my guess get ninja'd?

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Huh, serves me right for not looking back far enough. I'll edit it. Sorry, SirKaid...

 

[Darko]

The thing about the covenant: As far as I can tell, the priests got absolutely jack shit out of their end of the bargain. I'm sure they thought they were getting something. Whatever it was, even without subscribing to ethics that demand you Walk Away From Omelas, it could not possibly have been worth what they did. The simple fact that OL could wipe out their entire civilization with a single decision demonstrated that. Morally and ethically, the overwhelming majority of frameworks say that the covenant was wrong and OL was right to tear it down. Practically, it was a shitty, shitty covenant and the fact that it died so horribly was a simple consequence of its shittasticness.

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There wasn't much explanation of what the people got by having their eyes torn out.

Like say did they get good weather and crops, protections from natural disasters etc. and in order for the god to do these things he needed the power provided by the eyeball mutilation.

Though I'm pretty sure it was more akin to the deal criminals have with people they get paid to 'protect'.

That being 'you pay us and we don't beat the shit out of you and destroy your place'

 

[Mr Zoat]

Something that still bothers me about how OL handled that situation with the eyeball cutters. He has recruited and allied himself with people who are far, far worse than any individual priest from that religion, except for maybe some of the people in the higher echelons of the religion. And yet he helped wholesale slaughter them down to even the lowliest acolyte.

Don't get me wrong, that practice needed to fucking stop, the vast majority of the priests probably deserved to be slaughtered, and I can see OL stopping it even if he wasn't getting anything out of it, but it really does seem like he went with the more extreme and violent way so he could get more recruits.

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Yes. That is exactly why he did it like that. He put rings into the hands of a pair of people he thought had the right stuff and watched what they did with them. Quite aside from the value of making a statement both to the inhabitants and the rest of NEMO, he believes that ensuring that the religion could not be resurrected was a worthwhile goal.

 

[Jacen]

... what or who is NEMO?

 

[Darko]

... what or who is NEMO?

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Network for the Establishment and Maintenance of Order.

It's basically an umbrella organization that is meant to fight the Reach currently.

It's various branches include LEGION, the Darkstars, and the OLC.

 

[Idkusername]

From the Story Only: 'Rapprochement'. It's a small throwaway line.
In the early chapters of 'Hoard', OL teleports from Maltus to Earth with Hinon. She checks him over for 'Avarice overspill' that he was concerned about thanks to Boss Smiley's manipulation. As far as I could tell, that's what she was okaying. In fact, she seems a little concerned on exit... My best efforts can't find anything else...

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Thanks. Appreciate it.

 

[Amrynel]

"I don't want to negotiate. I want to kill it. I'm confident that the local Orange Lanterns and I can kill it, but I want to check that there won't be any blowback and that it isn't doing anything actively against the civilian population other than being really disturbing."

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Ah, the Klingon approach to religion. Your gods are more trouble than they're worth? Kill them.

 

[DrThoth]

I know the first few updates of a new episode are generally unrelated to or at least disconnected from the actual plot of the episode, but the Atlantean politics in this fic is always so engaging, so I'd love it if the whole ep is about that. I haven't actually heard the term 'low politics' before now, but reading its definition doesn't give me a specific guess towards things, though it does seem to suggest something space/LEGION related, possibly something with the planets in the Reach expansion zone.

It's also an interesting title given the primary QQ ban (edit: I'm aware it's specifically the last two decades of recent politics, just found it amusing).

 

[Darko]

I know the first few updates of a new episode are generally unrelated to or at least disconnected from the actual plot of the episode, but the Atlantean politics in this fic is always so engaging, so I'd love it if the whole ep is about that. I haven't actually heard the term 'low politics' before now, but reading its definition doesn't give me a specific guess towards things, though it does seem to suggest something space/LEGION related, possibly something with the planets in the Reach expansion zone.

It's also a fun/nteresting title given the primary QQ ban.

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As long as Zoat makes sure not to mention current political situations he's good.

Some issues may be unavoidable and may make the moderators somewhat twitchy, but as long they aren't too close to the last twenty years there shouldn't be any problems.

There are plenty of political issues that have been argued about for decades long before the past twenty years.

 

[Steelplaza]

Really rolling my eyes at the SI taking sides in an internal civil conflict and simultaneously declaring it, "Not my problem."

Maybe Atlantis can't win a military conflict with LEGION, but the entire reason Orange Lantern is doing this is because he wants access to mages. I hope King Cyprian has all the mages he needs, because I wouldn't expect any under the jurisdiction of the Atlantean government will be allowed to work for him anymore.

 

[Rafin]

And that's why you always ask what the reason for a thing is before you murder everyone.

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The reason was known. It was religious. The Aztecs would also have said that if they don't stop sacrificing people then the moon will swallow the sun and then kill everything else.
On top of that the planet seemed thaumically inactive, the priests were still actively victimizing on a massive and constant scale, and the people who did the actual priest murdering were victims currently wearing orange rings.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Really rolling my eyes at the SI taking sides in an internal civil conflict and simultaneously declaring it, "Not my problem."

Maybe Atlantis can't win a military conflict with LEGION, but the entire reason Orange Lantern is doing this is because he wants access to mages. I hope King Cyprian has all the mages he needs, because I wouldn't expect any under the jurisdiction of the Atlantean government will be allowed to work for him anymore.

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No, but King Cyprian does have all the mages Dox needs to set up schools on Tillettit. They'll be lag, certainly, but now a place that was simply a burden will be able to give something highly rare back. Plus the people of Tillettit are rather fond of the Orange Lantern Corps.

 

[Darko]

No, but King Cyprian does have all the mages Dox needs to set up schools on Tillettit. They'll be lag, certainly, but now a place that was simply a burden will be able to give something highly rare back. Plus the people of Tillettit are rather fond of the Orange Lantern Corps.

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Good point, especially since it seemed to just be a recruitment world for some Darkstars, and it may not even be that and only a small number of their people have joined them, its technology level was also apparently late 19th century at most so no tech from that side.

Now they can provide mages to the OLC and Cyprian and his mages can gain more date on how magic works on other planets for that whole Dreaming project.

 

[Bramble Thorn]

I mean, even if he had known about the eyeball god-thing, he probably would've done the same thing.

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Nah.

Same actors, different order of operations. He would have had a magical analysis and kill team already assembled before the floating eyeballs even showed up.

So why does their god want a bunch of eyeballs?

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Why would the thing made up of eyeballs want more eyeballs ritually sacrificed to it?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say because having more eyeballs means having more eyeballs to add to your collection of eyeballs. Which is possibly also the manifestation of your physical form.

 

[Coda]

city states

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Usually hyphenated.

Not this Nemo?

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I mean, he's orange enough.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Usually hyphenated.

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Thank you, corrected.

 

[Chaoswind]

A good solution to this would be making Cyprian King of Venturia, but having the place continue being an Atlantean state.



Good point.

Zoat did say that with enough belief people can create an Old God, or at least a powerful mystic entity, so the collective belief of an entire continent, plus the eyeball sacrifices and the fact the planet is mystically active could lead to them making a god that previously just existed in their mythology.

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Clea's daughter would have a claim to the throne, the daughter that was "kidnapped" and raised by the people that benefited the most from the assassination of her husband... That is why Clea decreed the throne would be his before she died... But it's not like Atlantis accepted that, so there is still a high risk that Orin would just give the daughter the throne (because he is an idiot and the situation was likely done on the orders of his grandmother so by default he is in the anti Clea faction).

The only way Clea royal decree will be respected is if Atlantis is made to respect them.

 

[Darko]

Clea's daughter would have a claim to the throne, the daughter that was "kidnapped" and raised by the people that benefited the most from the assassination of her husband... That is why Clea decreed the throne would be his before she died... But it's not like Atlantis accepted that, so there is still a high risk that Orin would just give the daughter the throne (because he is an idiot and the situation was likely done on the orders of his grandmother so by default he is in the anti Clea faction).

The only way Clea royal decree will be respected is if Atlantis is made to respect them.

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True, though I'm pretty sure that Orin would at least make Cyprian king, however his other subjects may not be pleased with the independce thing and would want to give the throne to the daughter and punish Cyprian.

 

[Chaoswind]

True, though I'm pretty sure that Orin would at least make Cyprian king, however his other subjects may not be pleased with the independce thing and would want to give the throne to the daughter and punish Cyprian.

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Cyprian was in negotiations with Orin for the last couple of months and just recently declared independence. One would assume the negotiations failed and Orin decided his advisors were right and the daughter should be made queen. So Cyprian went "the king has made its rule, now let's see him enforce it" and declared independence.

Remember the council that rules the city that wants to annex Venturia are staunch allies of the crown of Atlantis, it was almost a foregone conclusion that Orin would continue with the plan made by his grandmother.

 

[WaleXdraK]

Orange don't need no fancy sword to beat these eyeballs, he just need to show him who is the best bunch of eyeballs by doing the same thing he did then when he was controlled by the Ophidian and was looking for The league of Shadow.

 

[Mr Zoat]

Orange don't need no fancy sword to beat these eyeballs, he just need to show him who is the best bunch of eyeballs by doing the same thing he did then when he was controlled by the Ophidian and was looking for The league of Shadow.

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As stated in the segment, the SI was fairly confident that he could destroy the eye creature. He just wanted to be certain and needed external help to check.

 

[Impartial Panic]

Something to keep in mind, if this is an actual Cthulu style being, going by canon precedence the Orange Light wouldn't work on it.

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Time for paul to fabricate some more Nth Metal.
or was it Grayven who did that?

 

[Darko]

Time for paul to fabricate some more Nth Metal.
or was it Grayven who did that?

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It was Paul, though he had help from the Ophidian.

 

[infinityDivided]

thus making gods and such exist retroactively.

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Do they actually exist retroactively, or do they just come into existence with all the memories of things they're believed to have done?

 

[DrThoth]

Time for paul to fabricate some more Nth Metal.
or was it Grayven who did that?

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I don't think Earth-16 Nth metal has the useful anti-magic/anti-eldritch abomination properties as DCAU Nth metal, though maybe it's still useful; I don't fully remember what those Thanagarian cultists way back in Wing and Dagger were capable of.

 

[Darko]

I don't think Earth-16 Nth metal has the useful anti-magic/anti-eldritch abomination properties as DCAU Nth metal, though maybe it's still useful; I don't fully remember what those Thanagarian cultists way back in Wing and Dagger were capable of.

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It has been shown to be able to turn people into those hawk monsters things and probably is used by the Seven Devils for their other magics.

Wonder if this version has any anti magic properties

 

[Pinklestia]

Grayven would solve this thing way easier wince he has a lot of magical support and still has the Sword Of the Fallen.