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Worm and Ward discussion and debate thread

Nekraa said:
Unless you believe that if you have power to help you must use it to help. I guess?

Also, while they wanted capes, they also lacked the ability to stop every terrible thing that happens. Indeed, they were themselves foiled by the Simurgh when their research seemed to be close to a breakthrough. The rest of the endbringers are not helpful for making a world with less terribleness.
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If I might quote Spider-man: "With great power comes great responsibility". To anyone who's seen my discussion before, you might see that I'm very hard on canon portrayals of characters, particularly the heroes, but supportive of reinterpretations that veer away from their canon nature. That's because I agree with the above quote. If someone has the ability to change things for the better and they don't, then they're responsible for any suffering that comes from refusing to help. Cauldron has immense power, but horribly misuses it by encouraging suffering and the screwed up nature of the world rather than trying to help.

And yes, I know that they're not responsible for every bad thing that happens. Far from it. But that doesn't make them innocent by any stretch. Nor does it justify having someone who can literally do anything and not having her use her ability to actually help anyone. They could stop countless problems, but don't because it benefits their 'plan', inasmuch as it actually is a plan. Therefore, I put those who suffered from that at least partially on their shoulders. Not entirely. Blaming Africa on them is unfair I admit, but they also could have dealt with the Yangban, even if it was only by using Contessa's social fu to convince them to stop brainwashing people, and they just let them run as is. They actively encourage and benefit from the corruption of the Protectorate, they allow hordes of super villains to run free as a matter of policy when they have a prison that is inescapable but they can still pull people out of if they need them when the Golden Morning comes around.

Maybe that's idealistic, but if anything is supposed to be idealistic, it's super heroes.
 
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Cauldron fundamentally can't make a world with shard-based capes into not a hellhole. Contessa can't be everywhere at once. Shards foment conflict; this is their nature, and there's no way to prevent it from happening.

Sure, any given atrocity going on on Bet Cauldron could probably end. But they can't "make a difference" in the large sense. They did a great deal by forming the Protectorate, and this is why North America is better off than Africa. But North America is still not a problem-free place, and they basically can't make it any less conflicted than it is. The people dying in cape fights all over the world are basically an extension of the people who died at Gold Morning; it's because of the space whales, and there's no particular way to fix it.
 
kamenhero25 said:
If I might quote Spider-man: "With great power comes great responsibility"
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They chose to fight.

They knew they had decades of heads-up, and maybe even centuries. Alone, Scion had no will to explode all of the Earths (and possibly did not have the means anymore). With some prodding and thinking, Fortuna and the woman who would not have become Doctor Mother could have found an Earth that Scion would have simply disregarded and be never touched by Golden Morning.

They could have become dictators of an entire world with low parahuman activity.

They could have created a paradise on their doorstep, carefully monitoring their immediate surroundings to make a limited number of people as happy as possible in this universe.

They could have simply forgotten Earth Bet and its slow descent into insanity and anarchy before inevitable extinction.

Instead, they chose to fight. They made their own the most desperate and unfair fight imaginable, and because they too thought that good intentions are not enough and that you don't get points for trying they made sure to give humanity every chance they could, even to the point of shutting up their own qualms and anguish. They had great power, and chose to make the entire multiversal Earth their responsibility. Because every alternative just felt worse and more cruel, and because it seemed the right thing to do.

While Cauldron is a very controversial topic and organization, decrying at the same time that all their plans fall apart because of their incompetence and that Earth Bet turned out this way because they didn't have the will to do better does not make sense. I was not "looking down on you," just expressing a different perspective with some attempt at levity. I am, now, looking down on you because your arguments are self-defeating.
 
My argument isn't self-defeating, yours is just factually wrong.

ayleid said:
They chose to fight.
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This seems to be your central argument, so I'll be back to this.

They knew they had decades of heads-up, and maybe even centuries. Alone, Scion had no will to explode all of the Earths (and possibly did not have the means anymore). With some prodding and thinking, Fortuna and the woman who would not have become Doctor Mother could have found an Earth that Scion would have simply disregarded and be never touched by Golden Morning.

They could have become dictators of an entire world with low parahuman activity.

They could have created a paradise on their doorstep, carefully monitoring their immediate surroundings to make a limited number of people as happy as possible in this universe.

They could have simply forgotten Earth Bet and its slow descent into insanity and anarchy before inevitable extinction.
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You're using a false equivalence fallacy to attempt to argue that because they could have been worse, my argument that they could and should have been better is wrong. Except there is no connection between these points. Saying that 'they could have been worse' does not in any way support the idea that they did the best they could nor does it in any way mean that they helped as many people as they could or that their methods were the best methods to use. This entire section is both irrelevant and distraction attempting to distract from my point.

Instead, they chose to fight. They made their own the most desperate and unfair fight imaginable, and because they too thought that good intentions are not enough and that you don't get points for trying they made sure to give humanity every chance they could, even to the point of shutting up their own qualms and anguish. They had great power, and chose to make the entire multiversal Earth their responsibility. Because every alternative just felt worse and more cruel, and because it seemed the right thing to do.
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That's not an argument, that's an appeal to emotion fallacy known as an appeal to pity, attempting to try to make it seem like since they're the underdogs, their actions should be excusable. You're trying to make them look like the good guys based solely on that reaction, then acting like I'm wrong because of it. Additionally, this doesn't address my point at all. What I said was that they used their power over Earth Bet to encourage it to be shit because it benefited their plan. You're attempting to divert that point to saying that they used their power to help the multiverse, so my point is wrong. Except those two points are not in any way related. Saying they were fighting for every other Earth does not change or even dispute that they still made Earth Bet shit. It just sounds like it does.

While Cauldron is a very controversial topic and organization, decrying at the same time that all their plans fall apart because of their incompetence and that Earth Bet turned out this way because they didn't have the will to do better does not make sense. I was not "looking down on you," just expressing a different perspective with some attempt at levity. I am, now, looking down on you because your arguments are self-defeating.
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Me decrying their overall plan falling apart (find a cape to kill Scion) is unrelated to my point that they made Earth Bet awful. In fact, the only plan of theirs that worked was making Earth Bet a horrible place. Which frankly just makes it worse. Well, and forming the Protectorate, but I'd even argue that the blatant corruption in their ranks means even that didn't go very well.

Next time, try to make an argument that's not entirely fallacies instead of acting self righteous.
 
To be honest, if you in a modern civilizion hear about this organization across dimensions preparing for an interdimensional war for every single Earth... by working on the designated frontline because that's where the END of EVERYTHING will strike first... by arranging for more super powered tech, more super powered humans to gain super powers even if it requires trauma to do so...

This distant front line has nothing to do with you, but it's where things will start... and there are giant monsters there already smashing civilization...

Are you going to quibble and say that this organization is evil for trying everything to save everyone, including you and your world.
 
kamenhero25 said:
Me decrying their overall plan falling apart (find a cape to kill Scion) is unrelated to my point that they made Earth Bet awful. In fact, the only plan of theirs that worked was making Earth Bet a horrible place.
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Cauldron is not responsible for making Earth Bet awful. Shards are responsible for making Earth Bet awful. (And Endbringers, but they're only accelerating an existing trend.)

Cauldron is responsible for making Earth Bet quite a bit better than it would have been otherwise.
 
kamenhero25 said:
That's the problem with utilitarianism. Eventually you either have to give up and try a different system of morality, or you end up committing horrific atrocities because killing a million people to save a billion is okay in your book. Personally, I believe there's a point where simply too many people are being harmed by your actions, regardless of intentions or how many people your actions are saving. Literally an entire world's worth of human beings is very far past that line for me. Other people can disagree, but when I don't particularly care if they saved several trillion lives by sacrificing 8 billion people's safety, happiness, and potentially lives. That's simply to far to get anything other than scorn from me, especially when their sacrifice would have amounted to nothing if a completely outside variable hadn't salvaged Cauldron's horribly thought out plan.
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OK, the bolded bit has been added to the Quotes file on my computer, with your QQ handle.

Biigoh said:
To be honest, if you in a modern civilizion hear about this organization across dimensions preparing for an interdimensional war for every single Earth... by working on the designated frontline because that's where the END of EVERYTHING will strike first... by arranging for more super powered tech, more super powered humans to gain super powers even if it requires trauma to do so...

This distant front line has nothing to do with you, but it's where things will start... and there are giant monsters there already smashing civilization...

Are you going to quibble and say that this organization is evil for trying everything to save everyone, including you and your world.
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When their main plan is so badly handled as to be counterproductive (their 'army' had to be mind-controlled to get it to stop fighting itself during the End Of All Worlds), in large part because they're being evil about it, I certainly can condemn them for being evil, on top of being incompetent.
 
alethiophile said:
2. The "army" of Case 53s wasn't particularly intended as an army. Their goal there was to desperately hunt for another golden BB single cape who could maybe take out Scion. You can say "relying on luck is a bad plan", but if it's the only thing you have to rely on, well, maybe the horse will sing. This ended up failing and being pretty pointless, but hey.
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Fun fact, Grey Boy was a cauldron cape that they were unable to subdue when they realized how crazy he was.

Funner fact, Grey Boy could have soloed the Endbringers. He just died before the first one showed up however. Also he turned out to be evil as a result of a lottery they couldn't predict.

If they were a little more lucky, spinning the parahuman wheel could have had amazing benefits. Endbringers defeated, villainous capes 'stored' in loops instead of out in the open so they make it to the final battle, etc.
Unfortunately they were in Worm and PtV can't predict the results of triggers.
 
kinglugia said:
Wait, didn't Cauldron kill Grey Boy by way of Glastig Uaine?
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Yeah, after he turned out to be evil and locked a few too many useful capes up in loops.

GU is a good game from Cauldron's POV; capes she kills aren't lost to the war effort. OTOH, they have to deal with GU, who is also crazy. <_<
 
alethiophile said:
Yeah, after he turned out to be evil and locked a few too many useful capes up in loops.

GU is a good game from Cauldron's POV; capes she kills aren't lost to the war effort. OTOH, they have to deal with GU, who is also crazy. <_<
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Crazy in a way that would not have made her useful to the war effort if she hadn't changed crazyness (or gotten mind-controlled like everyone else, not sure of the order, there), IIRC.
 
Zackarix

Hmm, he's honestly overstating things a bit as while fairly powerful she wouldn't be anything than another Cricket were it not for the whole serial killer aspect and Insight causing her to unknowingly spreading madness. What makes her dangerous is that she's moderately hard to kill, doesn't stay dead, and the PRT has no way to contain her that we know of.
 
Changed the thread title to include ward because that is the sequel to worm and doesn't need another thread for this made. Anyway... in the stories you don't bother with thread it's came to my attention that wilbow might be spiting the people who continuously made Amy good in fanfiction by retroactively making her be always evil using the sequel Ward.

I called that out as bad story telling but I just realize it's not likely confirmed that he's doing this. So it probably is just Wilbow being a troll again or something. Anyway, wouldn't that small change really fuck with Amy's character arc? I mean, if she was always evil why didn't she make Vicky like her sooner instead of doing it in the heat of a moment?

Or why would she volunteer to go to the birdcage and outright threaten people so she could get birdcaged?

I know she threatens horrible things to people all the time but she never stood out to me as someone who had the guts to actually go through with it, if she did Taylor would have been screwed long before Scion and Khepri. And multiple criminals would have cancer. That's more the sign of being a teenager than evil. Hell, why would she even volunteer to heal people with what little times she did so at all?

Who knows, I could be completely off base with this and my idea of what an evil person would do under Amy's circumstances.


That's my end thoughts on the matter.
 
OverReactionGuy said:
Changed the thread title to include ward because that is the sequel to worm and doesn't need another thread for this made. Anyway... in the stories you don't bother with thread it's came to my attention that wilbow might be spiting the people who continuously made Amy good in fanfiction by retroactively making her be always evil using the sequel Ward.

I called that out as bad story telling but I just realize it's not likely confirmed that he's doing this. So it probably is just Wilbow being a troll again or something. Anyway, wouldn't that small change really fuck with Amy's character arc? I mean, if she was always evil why didn't she make Vicky like her sooner instead of doing it in the heat of a moment?

Or why would she volunteer to go to the birdcage and outright threaten people so she could get birdcaged?

I know she threatens horrible things to people all the time but she never stood out to me as someone who had the guts to actually go through with it, if she did Taylor would have been screwed long before Scion and Khepri. And multiple criminals would have cancer. That's more the sign of being a teenager than evil. Hell, why would she even volunteer to heal people with what little times she did so at all?

Who knows, I could be completely off base with this and my idea of what an evil person would do under Amy's circumstances.


That's my end thoughts on the matter.
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In Worm, Amy thought that she was evil, when she wasn't. In Ward, apparently she thinks that she's good when she isn't. I suppose that could be considered a character arc?
 
Prince Charon said:
In Worm, Amy thought that she was evil, when she wasn't. In Ward, apparently she thinks that she's good when she isn't. I suppose that could be considered a character arc?
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-shrugs-

I guess it's a reverse character arc, maybe this time she'll end up a bastion of sanity at the end of it.

I mean if she's evil in ward I don't really care, it was just implied to me that wilbow was retroactively making changes to worm again making Amy always evil which I have a problem with. Though they were probably referring to that then and I overreacted.
 
I mean, what she did to Victoria is hardly "good". Would have to reread that part to judge it properly though.
 
Nekraa said:
I mean, what she did to Victoria is hardly "good". Would have to reread that part to judge it properly though.
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Well, that was because the stress from everything coming at once and then S9 and then her realizing she can't remember victoria's looks well enough because of her aura so Vicky got goo'd.

At least I think that was the sequence of events but I honestly could and probably am wrong.

She at least fixed her at the end of worm.
 
Sydonai said:
Not nearly as bad as-
"forgot how to change her back because too busy continuously raping her"
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Well yeah, that too. But apparently it was too "subtle"? From what I understood that's what Wildbow meant, but he didn't write it too blatantly.

I know that I didn't get that from the when I read Worm. And it's been years since I read it so I can't go on memory. I am pretty bad at reading between the lines though.
 
Sydonai said:
Wildbow didn't know she did that, until he decided that she had to be retroactively irredeemable.
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...Okay then it's best ignored if it was only retroactively added in. Is he seriously trying to go the route of JK rowling only instead of what she tries to do it's to make the story darker than it was?
 
OverReactionGuy said:
...Okay then it's best ignored if it was only retroactively added in. Is he seriously trying to go the route of JK rowling only instead of what she tries to do it's to make the story darker than it was?
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Nothing in the original text was edited by Wildbow to make her retroactively worse, Amy is a bad person in Ward because of how she acts in Ward not because of what she did to Victoria in Worm.

What Wildbow did do was go on reddit and analyze the text previously he wrote for a reader who said they didn't get it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Parahumans/comments/ciscq1/question_about_amy/ev8y062/
 
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alethiophile said:
If he wanted to write Amy as having raped Victoria during the healing sequence, he should have just written that, not "interpreted" it after the fact into a completely incoherent fever-dream scene.
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That passage he analyzes to show where he implied THIS WAS RAPE is from Worm.

The "incoherent" Ward flashback to the blobbing from Victoria's POV is actually far more focused on the mind rape aspect, and it was very explicit that Amy did that in Worm.

Edit: Seriously tho, I do not understand how anyone failed to get that blobtoria body horror was a metaphor for having your body violated? Are people just freaking out because it was confirmed to be deliberate instead of the fanon theory that Amy's shard made her do it? I really didn't give a shit about Amy's intentions for blobbing her sister instead of healing her. At the end of the day Amy's fuckup left her sister in the hospital as mindraped super-quadriplegic.
 
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Nekraa said:
I mean, what she did to Victoria is hardly "good". Would have to reread that part to judge it properly though.
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That was when she was basically nuts from stress. It wasn't good, in fact it was terrible, but it doesn't reflect the personality that Amy had before Leviathan, it reflects the fact that she was driven mad by varying levels of significant stress over a long period without effective recovery time (or any real help in recovering).
 
So, Ward's in its final epilogue chapters now, and apparently the shards found an answer to their problem:

They just need to adapt to their current situation rather than carrying around their trauma after it stopped being relevant; just like parahumans, the shards were emotionally scarred by their "trigger events" with the dog-eat-dog nature of their homeworld.

Then the parahumans stopped the shards from telling the rest of their kind about it in order to save the world.
 
HeWhoWasMarduk said:
So now that it's all done with how much of a shitshow was Ward and what were the worst bits? I'll be honest and admit that I never even bothered reading it since I didn't really care for Victoria as the protagonist.
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I was initially excited by the idea. Having a story set in the Wormverse that focused on a group of heroes dealing with the fallout of Golden Morning sounded really interesting. I quickly stopped when I remembered just how shitty Wildbow was at times and he seems to have actively gotten worse since Worm. Frankly, nothing I've heard about it has made me want to check it out and it gives me the impression that Worm as a universe isn't really all that viable. The story seems to think people really are interested in dimensional travel, weirdly over the top supervillains, and long talks about personality problems. Not helped by the fact that WB seems to think it's the height of writing to have the main character be mentally scared to the point of barely being functional. If nothing else it does settle the idea that WB is about the same level of most of the fanfiction writers who make up stories about his stories.
 
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