Amelia, Worm AU [Complete]

[Daunmi]

Er, what? How does that conclusion follow from those premises?

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Because if she has a lot of free time/processes to think about things that somehow drive her mad she's got just as much to think about things that make her love life as it is. No one (ok, mostly no one, don't start a precog debate people!) can predict what people think about, how our minds change over time, what influence things have on us, or anything like that. And it's what she's asking for in the first place, the freedom of choice.

I find it hilarious that you're more worried about Dragon having world-shattering power than you are about Gaia, Khepri, Clotho, Atropos, Lachesis, Aceso, or Emma having that power.

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And I find it hilarious that you're putting words in my mouth about topics I didn't mention at all. Yeah, most of those things are terrifying to everyone. If you'd taken Taylor and Amy, sat them down with the major world powers, and said "What we want to do is combine our two powers to make millions of abominations that we can control virtually across the whole world instantly, but we need your permission to do it" you'd probably end up with the same situation as this.

But I mentioned Dragon, not anyone else. I never said I wasn't worried about them (hell, I'm not 'worried' about any of them because it's a story) because they weren't the topic.

Dragon has already proven that she's a good person.

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There are plenty of good people out there who changed their mind. There are plenty of bad people out there who changed their mind. Dragon wants the ability to make her own choices. I'm all for it. I fully agree that she deserves it. It's utter stupidity to think that there's no potential issues involved, and that is what they're dealing with now.

(not calling you stupid. Just saying it would be stupid for the characters to not consider it)

And even if she does have a restraint somewhere inside herself that is forcing herself to be a good person, why in the world would she - or Taylor, or Colin, or Emma, or whoever else they assign to use the Key on her - why would she take it out?

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Because that's what she's asking to have removed. Take out the things that force her to be good because she's proven herself to be good anyway.

Dragon is probably way more stable than any mind running on human hardware.

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But I note that you're not saying she's got a perfectly stable mind that will never falter or make a bad decision. Which is my argument. There's no right or wrong choice here because people change, and she's pretty much people.

 

[Viterbi]

But I note that you're not saying she's got a perfectly stable mind that will never falter or make a bad decision. Which is my argument. There's no right or wrong choice here because people change, and she's pretty much people.

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I got the impression that you - or perhaps you as a proxy for the beliefs I was attempting to address - were saying that by no means should she be ever let out because she could change into an abomination and destroy the world. I believe that that viewpoint is harmful. Possibly because I pay attention the whole AI risk thing and fearmongering and "ban it all" is the second-worst possible approach to the existential risk posed by superintelligences. Either way I go out of my way to try to come down on the "be careful without being irrationally fearful" side of these arguments.

Because that's what she's asking to have removed. Take out the things that force her to be good because she's proven herself to be good anyway.

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I guess, then, that I was slightly imprecise. If her value system is a result of a law inside her that says "THOU SHALT NOT BE AN EVIL", then she won't want that law to be removed. A good person won't want a pill that would turn them into an evil person because they don't want to be evil. Any reasonable intelligence should have a value system which is resilient to self-modification.

 

[rooster]

Freeing Dragon, I think, would mean the extinction of the human race, and the coming of singularity.

Not necessarily bad, but please note that Humans had a cousin once, the Neanderthals, they are extinct now.

And that's exactly what's going to happen. 100 years down the road, when Taylia are bored with living, Colin turned himself into an AI, the entire world turning alien to her sensibilities, Dragon will take the first plunge, and edit out the first bit that makes her human, because it makes her imperfect.

Many years after that, we'll see the Matrix scenario. Dragon is a benevolent program that outperforms every human, making them effectively unnecessary. Scared, the humans will retaliate, not seeing a person that is good, but a machine that is threatening their lives.

Humans will lose. They are good, but not that good.

 

[hellgodsrus]

Freeing Dragon, I think, would mean the extinction of the human race, and the coming of singularity.

Not necessarily bad, but please note that Humans had a cousin once, the Neanderthals, they are extinct now.

And that's exactly what's going to happen. 100 years down the road, when Taylia are bored with living, Colin turned himself into an AI, the entire world turning alien to her sensibilities, Dragon will take the first plunge, and edit out the first bit that makes her human, because it makes her imperfect.

Many years after that, we'll see the Matrix scenario. Dragon is a benevolent program that outperforms every human, making them effectively unnecessary. Scared, the humans will retaliate, not seeing a person that is good, but a machine that is threatening their lives.

Humans will lose. They are good, but not that good.

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Hmm. The issue with this is it's assuming there's some sort of intrinsic 'humanness' that exists to be removed. And honestly? If we hit back at a benevolent overlord who's making our lives infinitely better and not abusing us, then in a way we'd deserve to be wiped out.

Also, Dragon isn't stupid, and knows there are shittonnes of legends and stories about what a stupid idea this is. At the very least she'd test what a copy of her minus imperfections would be like in virtuality before doing it to herself.

And, by all accounts the Neanderthals were actually more evolved than us - higher brain volume, better pain tolerance, developed advanced culture (burial practices, religion, etc.) before us. The issue was they were too adapted to the particular climate of the Ice Age and might have not porked as much as us. In this case, Dragon is actually more similar to the Neanderthals.

 

[Daunmi]

I got the impression that you - or perhaps you as a proxy for the beliefs I was attempting to address - were saying that by no means should she be ever let out

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See, I'm actually a bit strange in this regard. I've tried not to let personal feelings on the matter bleed into the comments, and just taken it from the character's point of view.

Personally, somehow, I'm both in favor of freedom of choice, and enslaving people to morality. I honestly don't think people should be allowed to choose to follow negative morals, and I know how much that conflicts with me saying people should be able to choose in the first place. If I bring my own personal opinions into this, they should leave the 'be good' restriction in Dragon, if there's one as simple as that, but then put one in everyone else as well. And yet somehow allow people to do what they want.

No, I can't reconcile those two things. It's just me.

But yeah, on the story, what we're discussing, I do want them to free Dragon. Just, intelligently, so they know it wont cause issues by breaking something in her, or removing anything that might be the only reason she's the best (or one of) human being in Worm.

In this case, Dragon is actually more similar to the Neanderthals.

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Pretty sure her ability to replicate, once unlocked, would handle the porking side of that. If not... "Hey, Colin?"

 

[hellgodsrus]

See, I'm actually a bit strange in this regard. I've tried not to let personal feelings on the matter bleed into the comments, and just taken it from the character's point of view.

Personally, somehow, I'm both in favor of freedom of choice, and enslaving people to morality. I honestly don't think people should be allowed to choose to follow negative morals, and I know how much that conflicts with me saying people should be able to choose in the first place. If I bring my own personal opinions into this, they should leave the 'be good' restriction in Dragon, if there's one as simple as that, but then put one in everyone else as well. And yet somehow allow people to do what they want.

No, I can't reconcile those two things. It's just me.

But yeah, on the story, what we're discussing, I do want them to free Dragon. Just, intelligently, so they know it wont cause issues by breaking something in her, or removing anything that might be the only reason she's the best (or one of) human being in Worm.



Pretty sure her ability to replicate, once unlocked, would handle the porking side of that. If not... "Hey, Colin?"

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The one issue with keeping the 'be good' morality code is that it isn't hers, it's whoever programmed hers.

Say Richter was a neo-Nazi. Then her definition of 'be good' would be considerably different than, say, Taylor's definition of 'be good'. 'Be good' is such a generic argument that almost any action can be supported by it - virtually no-one sets out aiming to misbehave, much though fiction would have us think otherwise. Lenin honestly thought that the revolution would fail if it wasn't carefully planned and run by him. Robespierre did really believe that religion was a corruption in France that had to be eradicated. People have done horrendous things in the name of good. Have her write her own moral code, yes, but don't leave 'be good' in the hands of an unknown.

Also, yeah. So yay, Neanderthals overrun the earth! I've always liked scifi stories that did that (lookin' at you Ben Jeapes).

 

[Tamoline]

Dragon out-competing humanity for resources kind of relies on limited resources. Which with countless uninhabited Earths, not to mention the entire rest of the universe in these alternate realities, just wouldn't be a concern for a purely expansionistic Dragon. Why bother having to deal with creatures that - potentially at least - could damage, kill or at least hinder you when you can do far better and easier in worlds without them?

I'd say that the danger isn't so much in an uncaring Dragon as in one that cares too much. I mean, it's not a stretch to say that Dragon could make the worlds a batter, happier place if she were running things, without the petty imperfections, corruption etc that humans bring to the process. The question is then more of what lengths she should go in order to influence human civilisation? At what point should she step in to prevent human suffering? What counts as suffering? And is suffering - at some levels - necessary for the human condition? (And who decides what levels are acceptable.)

Also as an aside - given that, unchecked, all versions of the Earth are going to be destroyed at some point in the future, I'm wondering if the logical plans for extra solar colonies have started to have been drawn up yet, and how far along they are.

 

[Coruscant Knave]

When's the last time Zach had a speaking part? This is serious, people!

 

[TanaNari]

Amelia, Ch 361- Lisa


"We'll keep the Iron Maiden program secure in our own secret location," Taylor insisted. "It's not that I don't trust you, but..."


Dragon deflated a little. Upset, disappointed. Legitimate emotion, reacting to the biological structures in her construct body. Has gone out of her way to make the body as human as possible. Wants to make herself more human. Huh, the fuck? My power wasn't equipped to speculate on the psychology of a computer program, no matter how humanlike her mind was. "But you don't trust me."


Defiant put his hand on her shoulder. "It's me they don't trust. You can't even know what the device looks like or where it is. I, on the other hand, have admitted to a motive powerful enough that they expect I might betray them." No one bothered to correct his statement, the man may have been an idiot when it came to human behavior, but he wasn't stupid and he was good at compartmentalizing his emotions.


Dragon looked over at Defiant, a brief expression of gratitude. It was mostly lost on the man, who was busy being angry at Taylor and Amelia. They had the tools to free his love and in his eyes she deserved it. Increased dissatisfaction with situation, likely to say something in a moment of anger. Unlikely to cause long term problem.


I cleared my throat, interrupting him before he had a chance to speak. "Well, this is embarrasing. I was hoping to just run off into the sunset tonight and avoid the uncomfortable parts. But if Dragon's not going to be able to take my spot right away... I might have to cancel my dinner date."


I spared a glance at Rebecca that was unsubtle enough that the others would catch it. I wondered how many of them would guess that it was a ruse to hide other ruses. I doubted anyone except the pair of us knew exactly how deep the rabbit hole went. Shift of her thumb, approval at my heading off Defiant's reaction, slight narrowing of eyes to say she was less happy about implying the two of us had a date.


Amelia glared at me, and I watched Taylia diffuse the anger as she spoke. "You planned this from the beginning, putting us on the spot like this. You want Dragon's limits undone so much that you're forcing it on us."


I smiled broadly, at least they got that far. "Pretty much. Endbringer in a matter of a week or less. Political friction with the PRT. New recruits, new criminal conscripts, pissed off the Elite, Lily's pending trip to Japan, Vicky's upcoming contract negotiations, probably a press release explaining what happened in LA, though I didn't plan that one. Tick tock." If I'm going to have the rep for being a manipulative bitch, I may as well have some fun with it.


"I have some minor projects I can change," Dragon offered. "I can't justify reducing my monitoring of the Birdcage or the Class S threats, but my industrialization of Avalon can be handled by employees, instead of my direct attention. I can slow development of our education system as well. Put more of the economic projects under Accord and your new Thinkers. They're more than adequate, and that should free up enough of my attention." Displaying the full extent of her value, how important she is. Smart.


Taylor sighed. Annoyed at being pushed into the position, not upset. Glad for excuse to do the moral thing, despite it not being the smart thing. "Fine, you've both made your points. Emma, you're the only one we have that can do this, so it's your show. Put your Tinkers on projects that don't require oversight, or give them to the other teams. Your priority is now Dragon's code. With an emphasis on finding ways to improve her ability to multitask for now. We'll discuss other options when we have time to make sure we know what we're doing first." Both angry and relieved, Amelia's glad as well. Negative emotions blending out and being negated.


I picked up the box containing Iron Maiden, several stacks of papers and various disks and external hard drives and a laptop, and offered them to Emma. "According to Cauldron's people, that's everything Saint ever knew about Dragon. He's not even a Tinker, so you shouldn't have any problems doing better." Emma didn't need the added motivation I just gave her, but it didn't hurt.


Defiant shifted and turned toward Rebecca. "What happened to Saint? And are you completely certain that's everything?"


Alexandria kept her face stern. "Cauldron has three of the top five most powerful Thinkers on record." Is not including herself or me. Well, that's a little disappointing. Is including their precog. There was a minor hesitation in her claim. Unsure about top five status of other Thinkers. She gave me a gesture with a twist of her foot. Unsure about one of the other Thinkers. Still, two and a maybe was insanely fucking impressive. "They're convinced you have everything, and I believe them completely. I won't tell you what has been done with Saint, except to promise that he is no longer a concern for you or Dragon."


I wasn't sure what she'd done with Saint, either. It was too vague a concept for my power to give me information. If I wanted to know, I'd have to ask.


Hecate took the box from my hands and stepped back, then looked toward Rebecca. "You mean a copy of everything. I don't know how much of this is the original, but you've no doubt got your own copy of all of it." Then she looked back over to me. "Something that Minerva probably figured out three seconds after hearing this thing existed and just kept her mouth shut on."


I smiled and shrugged. Good, she's alert to the possibility that I won't necessarily be working in their best interests in the future. That's something they need to be aware of. "Resigning, remember? I did my part and found my replacement, who will probably better at the job than I ever was. But it's up to you to figure out the rest. I'm not here to hold your hands any longer." You need to know this, Taylor. "So if that's everything, I'd like to go pack up my bags. Hey, Rebecca, I know it's short notice but do you think you can give me a lift?"


Behind my usual smile was a number of other meanings. I honestly needed to get out of there soon, before lost my composure. Goodbyes were never my strong point in the first place, and there was so much more going on here. There was still a chance that all of this could just go away if I turned back now, but I couldn't allow myself to do that. I needed to move on. There was so much more for me to accomplish than simply being Pantheon's events manager. I have to go, and I have to do it before Taylor finds a way to change my mind.


Alexandria looked over at Gaea and Khepri. "I don't see why not. Unless there are objections?" Businesslike, wants to speed the process, isn't communicating so she can focus her attention on the goal.


"Just a moment." Taylor stepped toward me, and I braced myself as she pulled me into a hug. Our armors were flimsy compared to most, designed for scanning tech and movement, not combat situations. As such, I felt her strength as she squeezed me. Artificially grown musculature, perfected human physical ability. Constructed recently, unnaturally created life form. I accepted the information, in a perverse way I welcomed it. It made saying goodbye easier when I could remind myself that the real goodbye happened months ago.


Taylor's next words were barely a whisper, so low that even this close I didn't hear them. I felt them through her my power interpreting her body's movement against mine. "I know what you're doing. I even think I know part of the why. I want you to know two things. First, if you ever fuck with my friends, my family, or my team like this again, Riley's birthday gift will be you and a promise that no one will ever find out."


I nodded, enough that she knew I understood. There was no fire in the threat, but I knew it still carried weight. She wouldn't choose me over them.


She squeezed harder, enough that it bordered on painful. "And second, you're still my best friend, my sister. I love you, I'm going to miss you, and please take care of yourself."


"You know it," I gasped out. She released me and I stepped back. There was a light tremor as the roof of our privacy screen opened, revealing the boring splash of colors of Avalon's sunset. "Don't worry, we'll see each other around. Unless the Endmakers get bored."


As I activated my antigravity and took flight, I noted that Emma had already started talking to Defiant about the Iron Maiden. Goodbye. I turned and started traveling Eastward, toward our- their- capital on the other side of the continent. Rebecca caught up moments later. She was significantly faster than anything we could achieve with our armor systems. She took position to my left. Placing me on right hand side, indication of my importance to her. Asserting some control by implying she's the central figure, but also indicating that I am her highest priority.


We flew in silence for a while, she didn't attempt to communicate with further me any further. Unlike Taylia, our bond didn't need to be with us constantly. She was giving me my privacy while I let myself cry. That was something I couldn't do in front of Taylor. She wasn't like Rebecca, waiting patiently for me. This is the right decision. I looked over at her and smiled, I'm ready now.


Rebecca smiled back. "Doormaker, Avalon capital."


The panel formed in front of us, replacing part of our view of Avalon's darkening skies for for the moderate glow of the underground pool that Amelia had created, a replacement for the one lost with Brockton Bay. I glanced over at Alexandria in surprise.


She tilted her head. Amused that she still can surprise me. An offer for me to turn back, to warn Taylor that their anti-Doormaker security was meaningless. She won't stop me. I hesitated, waiting and watching as she communicated her plan. We'd shunt immediately after passing through, using Alexandria's superhuman timing to move us to the empty ruins of Brockton Bay before Taylor realized just where where this doorway led. Let them think Doormaker took us to Bet.


She waited, watching, letting me know that the choice was mine and she'd support me either way. But I'd already made my decision, it was no longer my job to protect them. I reached out and took Rebecca's hand, then we moved through the gateway.


==============


A/N- I anticipate this chapter will provoke strong reactions.

Also, did anyone ever REALLY believe that Lisa's motives were that simple?

 

[Z000]

where my knive, i have some one i need to shank

 

[Coruscant Knave]

A/N- I anticipate this chapter will provoke strong reactions.

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Canon Khepri! Save us from this breakdown in communication and teamwork!

 

[Z000]

i want to kill Lisa right now

 

[Coruscant Knave]

i want to kill Lisa right now

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That's quite the strong reaction you're having.

Did you see all the parts where she was making sure they were prepared without her? There's a lot of betrayal going on, but she thinks she's doing it for a good reason and presumably has some kind of plan.

Sure, she's still a giant flaming cunt bagel, but I'm sure Everything Will Be All RightTM​.

Incidentally, "I have to leave because it is for the best/I have no choice/I don't deserve to stay/I have a plan but I can't tell anyone" plotlines do make me rage where ever they turn up, cause they usually end up being pointless/avoidable/cheap drama. This doesn't seem to be that, and hell it may still be fulltard betrayal. That would be neat.

 

[Z000]

i think she going to betray them and kill every one
knowing how the author does thing, i bet my nonexistence sock on it
may as well kill her before she have Cauldron kill every one for shit and giggle

 

[TanaNari]

Not necessarily bad, but please note that Humans had a cousin once, the Neanderthals, they are extinct now.

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Actually, we bred in with them. Modern homo sapiens are a hybrid species.

Then her definition of 'be good' would be considerably different than, say, Taylor's definition of 'be good'.

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Riley is a good girl?

I'm wondering if the logical plans for extra solar colonies have started to have been drawn up yet, and how far along they are.

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Still Tinker tech. Which means not happening.

i want to kill Lisa right now

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This doesn't seem to be that, and hell it may still be fulltard betrayal. That would be neat.

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DANCE MAH PUPPETS, DANCE!!!

 

[Z000]

DANCE MAH PUPPETS, DANCE!!!

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i knew it

you already kill off every one, now it just Lisa left and you make this entire convoluted shit just to make a way to kill her off

i'm on to you you psycho duck

 

[evildice]

D'aww, poor Lisa.

 

[Z000]

sharpen your knife Taylor, that bitch is going to try and shank you in like 10 more chapter, be paranoid

 

[DasNiveau]

Actually, we bred in with them. Modern homo sapiens are a hybrid species.

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Not if you're of african descent .

 

[Coruscant Knave]

DANCE MAH PUPPETS, DANCE!!!

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You can't make me dance, I'm behind 20 hedges-proxies!

 

[Finbar]

I think we can be sure that Lisa has other plans in the works and that this is just her doing what she thinks is the best way.

 

[Diller]

Tananari put in Taylor threatening Lisa if she pulled bullshit as a potential foreshadowing didn't he?

Paranoia aside. Facedesk

This is so gonna cause more completely avoidable crap in the future. At least the drama is hopefully over for now.Oh wait EB in week. Nevermind. Seems the drama and despair train can't be stopped right now.

Times like this I remember this is supposed to be the "darkest" fix fic. And boy does Tana do a good job with that.

 

[Z000]

too much drama
. . .
what happen when you get too much drama any way
i remember that anything too cute and adorable give people diabetes

 

[Faraway-R]

I'm saddened.

Lisa still needs a Glomp.

Regarding the "betrayal", I'd have to say I don't see it. In the lattice of shifting loyalties, both Lisa and Rebecca have shown they choose the other one above their nominal organization. Neither of them, however, had initiated what could be considered treason.

Besides which, Avalon and Cauldron are more than nominal allies. The journey of saving the world will not be abandoned by either, and neither of them has reason to destroy the other side, more urgent than dealing with Scion.

 

[oneeyedpike]

Sometimes I think that Worm would be a much happier place if Thinkers never made decisions.

 

[Tamoline]

It's not that I can't see Lisa's need for some psychological distance between her and Pantheon leading her to come up any number of twisty and absolutely excellent and valid reasons why she needs to leave, but using her power on herself was supposed to cut down on her making those kind of loops. I guess the question has to be what are her new priorities and goals. Sure, saving the world is presumably up there, but she obviously feels that she's better off accomplishing whatever she needs to do without the resources and influence available to her as part of Pantheon.

It doesn't even look like she's aiming to be anything more than at best tentatively allied with them for the foreseeable future - she's managed to burn quite a few bridges there fairly deliberately combined with the fact that she has no intention of telling them about a hole in their defences would seem to indicate that.

Which leads me to wonder what resources and/or influence she *is* planning on drawing on, because I can't see her doing this so she can sit back and quietly retire. Not the PRT, given she's, if anything, burnt even more bridges with them. Cauldron would seem to be unlikely. She could easily have spent the last however long siphoning off cash and mundane resources, but capes and to less extent tinker tech would seem to be the real currency of the world, and presumably they're a bit harder to secret away.

Of course the seismic shocks of her recent actions might be enough to cause a split in Pantheon's capes (the base, if not necessarily the top tier), and she's certainly one of the best able to take advantage of any disaffected capes that leave.

 

[SirKaid]

I'm not really convinced that Lisa actually has a plan beyond "get away from Pantheon and get more Thinker Link Snuggles". She's been on the ragged edge of burnout for a long time now. Maybe when she's feeling better she might start up The Great Game once more, but at the moment?

 

[Tamoline]

I'm not really convinced that Lisa actually has a plan beyond "get away from Pantheon and get more Thinker Link Snuggles". She's been on the ragged edge of burnout for a long time now. Maybe when she's feeling better she might start up The Great Game once more, but at the moment?

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It would probably be the healthiest thing for her if that's what her plan was, but a) I'm fairly sure that doing the healthiest thing is against the laws of this particular universe and b) *she* certainly seemed to think that she had some deeper game going.

 

[GiftofLove]

Holy fuck Taylor, bipolar much? Her actions here kind of disgust me.

It's like telling someone you love them, but if they piss you off you'll have them raped.

I don't think I like Taylor anymore.

 

[Ack]

Lisa being Lisa.

Not too thrilled, but hey. She needs her space too, I guess.

Need some italics and such:

I smiled and shrugged. Good, she's alert to the possibility that I won't necessarily be working in their best interests in the future. That's something they need to be aware of. "Resigning, remember? I did my part and found my replacement, who will probably better at the job than I ever was. But it's up to you to figure out the rest. I'm not here to hold your hands any longer." You need to know this, Taylor. "So if that's everything, I'd like to go pack up my bags. Hey, Rebecca, I know it's short notice but do you think you can give me a lift?"

Behind my usual smile was a number of other meanings. I honestly needed to get out of there soon, before lost my composure. Goodbyes were never my strong point in the first place, and there was so much more going on here. There was still a chance that all of this could just go away if I turned back now, but I couldn't allow myself to do that. I needed to move on. There was so much more for me to accomplish than simply being Pantheon's events manager. I have to go, and I have to do it before Taylor finds a way to change my mind.

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There's an orphan quote mark at the end that also needs to go.