Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

[Shaper47]

On what exactly? Because you have not been saying "maybe we can make the Wolf less bad" you have been saying "the Wolf dousing the lights protects the world and I like him".

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Did you forget my entire theory that the Wolf is trying to play the part of the Wheel and have Velvet play the part of the Moth?

 

[DelightedOne]

Did you forget my entire theory that the Wolf is trying to play the part of the Wheel and have Velvet play the part of the Moth?

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You mean the Mother of Wolves being the successor of the Wolf-Divided? Wasn't that obvious?

But that is still not influencing the Wolf, it is completing his original plan.

 

[des-pair-2]

1. Intel from the Wolf without an RA, but Soft pays the price.

2.Bird said there is a hypothetical future where we could "corrupt" the Wolf back.

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There is that saying 'the ends justify the means,' but the means here are horrendous and the ends purely hypothetical.

We could get intel about the Wolf, but what kind of intel and would we even do with it? We could corrupt the Wolf back, but what steps have we taken on that road? We are working with time limit, it is too late to start walking new paths.

Just focus on getting to the GLORY, don't mess up the world in the meanwhile, and everything will be fine.

 

[Greymere]

1. Intel from the Wolf without an RA, but Soft pays the price.

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Even more specifically, at least for why I'm tempted to vote for it, is that whenever we've asked about "hey do we know enough about RAs to try and figure out how to remove the stains" the answer has always been "you don't understand enough about the nature of the stains to try". So this very well may be the only opportunity we have to gain enough information about the stains to learn if/how they might be eventually removed (even if it takes a Harmony blast to the face) without actually. You know. Birthing another Wolf and making the world an objectively worse and more evil place.

Like, the fact that it ordinarily requires us to pass the point of "the filth is greater than what remains" and the nature of the Wolf makes me suspicious that, under normal circumstances, the information that we'd gain from passing that point would also be something we would no longer be able to act upon after passing that point of no return.

 

[DelightedOne]

So this very well may be the only opportunity we have to gain enough information about the stains to learn if/how they might be eventually removed (even if it takes a Harmony blast to the face) without actually. You know. Birthing another Wolf and making the world an objectively worse and more evil place.

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That's true.

Yet I can't help but remember how many other people have said: we don't have AP, we don't have time, Glory is right there.

It just feels like it is going to be a "fire and forget" situation, especially because we won't be the ones dealing with the consequences.

 

[ses]

Complaints about spending Velvet AP on getting an entire cult's worth of minion actions, but instead we want to commit to advancing the Wolf's footprint in the world (even if less than a full RA) for the sake of... what, a hypothetical way to maybe remove Stains that we wont be able to invest AP into doing anyway before reaching Glory and rendering the whole thing moot? We already know that reaching a non-Wolf ending undoes the Stains because we were explicitly told that going up to 6/7 stains would not block other endings and that doing so would not alter the epilogue of the other endings. Therefore the Stains must get undone by other endings.

 

[des-pair-2]

-snip-

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To me personally, the problem of removing the Stains has always been a problem for Hour Velvet. Given what would normally have to happen for us to know how to do it, I assume-

Like, the fact that it ordinarily requires us to pass the point of "the filth is greater than what remains" and the nature of the Wolf makes me suspicious that, ordinarily, the information that we'd gain from passing that point will also be something we would no longer be able to act upon after passing that point of no return.

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-exactly that.

 

[Greymere]

That's true.

Yet I can't help but remember how many other people have said: we don't have AP, we don't have time, Glory is right there.

It just feels like it is going to be a "fire and forget" situation, especially because we won't be the ones dealing with the consequences.

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There is a reason that I said that I am tempted to vote for it, not that I am actually voting for it

And there's always the looming issue of, even if a Harmony blast to the face would work, the Element of Magic is still depressed and out-of-commission, we haven't met all of the other Elements yet, and even though we have Applejack on our contacts list she's still only just a Friend.

Complaints about spending Velvet AP on getting an entire cult's worth of minion actions, but instead we want to commit to advancing the Wolf's footprint in the world (even if less than a full RA) for the sake of... what, a hypothetical way to maybe remove Stains that we wont be able to invest AP into doing anyway before reaching Glory and rendering the whole thing moot? We already know that reaching a non-Wolf ending undoes the Stains because we were explicitly told that going up to 6/7 stains would not block other endings and that doing so would not alter the epilogue of the other endings. Therefore the Stains must get undone by other endings.

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Considering that the setting is crossed with CS, I find the idea that ascending to Glory will undo all the damage we have already done to both the Wake and the Mansus to be... optimistic? Maybe if we were going for the Harmony ending, but I don't really see that damage being undone in Glory or Moon.

 

[ses]

Considering that the setting is crossed with CS, I find the idea that ascending to Glory will undo all the damage we have already done to both the Wake and the Mansus to be... optimistic? Maybe if we were going for the Harmony ending, but I don't see that damage being undone in Glory or Moon.

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We were told that the Stains don't change the Glory epilogue.

 

[Greymere]

We were told that the Stains don't change the Glory epilogue.

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Were we? Or were only told that it wouldn't prevent us from getting the Glory ending, which is not the same thing as "this will not change the epilogue"?

(this is a genuine question, I do not remember)

 

[Shaper47]

But that is still not influencing the Wolf, it is completing his original plan.

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Is the Moth the same as the Wheel? Is the lore Moth different from that of Heart? Were the Wood different when they passed from the light of the Wheel to the darkness of the Moth?

Who defines the 'Wolf'?

Who says the 'Wolf' cannot be driven by love?

Who's will drives the 'Wolf' to action?

If one speaks and the other is silent what is heard comes from the one who speaks.

What is it the Wolf desires most...

 

[ses]

Were we? Or were only told that it wouldn't prevent us from getting the Glory ending, which is not the same thing as "this will not change the epilogue"?

(this is a genuine question, I do not remember)

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In the Master vote QM said that he would always give an explicit warning whenever an option would change our epilogue. We have never gotten any such warning about the Stains despite it being a frequent subject of discussion. If P then Q, if not Q then not P.

 

[DelightedOne]

Who defines the 'Wolf'?

Who says the 'Wolf' cannot be driven by love?

Who's will drives the 'Wolf' to action?

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"Three natures
hath the Wolf Divided;
he unmaketh;
he unmaketh;
at the last, he unmaketh"

What is it the Wolf desires most...

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Death. And what better way to reach it than having someone else take his role?

Pretty words but they still don't change the truth.

 

[Shaper47]

Pretty words but they still don't change the truth.

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I see you have no answer to the difference between the Moth and the Wheel though.

No answer to the difference between the lores of Moth and Heart.

Three natures
hath the Wolf Divided;
he unmaketh;
he unmaketh;
at the last, he unmaketh

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Sigh, your being deliberately obtuse here.

There is once voice that speaks to the world and who fire casts a shadow upon it and it is not his.

 

[Greymere]

In the Master vote QM said that he would always give an explicit warning whenever an option would change our epilogue. We have never gotten any such warning about the Stains despite it being a frequent subject of discussion. If P then Q, if not Q then not P.

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I was more asking for a quote, but I believe I found the one you are referencing anyway.

Allowing the Master to be reborn as Shaded Leaf, the first Prince of Equestria, would have explicitly "altered your epilogue". Maybe positively, maybe negatively, but certainly up to interpretation.
As it stands, Mareinette's Sacrament wouldn't have that kind of effect. I plan on explicitly telling you guys if you have a doom clock that is close to exploding (Celestia) or if a certain decision might have ramifications on your endgame (Shaded Leaf).
To be clear, I won't hold your hand. So if it's a known threat, like your disappeared Master, I won't let you guys know when it's about to bite. But if it's something sufficiently unpredictable and important, I'll give you guys a clear warning.

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I would like to point out that Bird said that he'd warn us if it's something sufficiently unpredictable. The Wolves are many things, but the only aspect in which they are unpredictable is the "how", not the "what". It is, in fact, extremely predictable that more Wolves = the world becomes a worse place.

 

[DelightedOne]

I see you have no answer to the difference between the Moth and the Wheel though.

No answer to the difference between the lores of Moth and Heart.

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Oh, I do. I just thought it was irrelevant.

But if you insist.

The Moth born from sacrifice was a god-from-Blood.
The Wheel was a god-from-Stone. We don't understand its nature enough to say what exactly that means.

The Moth was born from humanity, The Wheel precedes them.
The Wheel is a manifestation of nature in its cyclic form seen through inhuman views meanwhile The Moth is a manifestation of nature in its chaotic and unknown form by humans.

Moth and Heart were once one, so their differences are few, both deal with life, both refer to eternity in some way(keeping remains and preservation, respectively) and of course both have a deep conection to nature and life(though Moth has an advantage in the first), they are both instinctive and honor the movements of life through dance.

However, the first thing that comes to mind is that Moth is... quiet, furtive. Heart on the other hand is loud, unapologetically loud.
Aside from that Moth only preserves what remains, Heart tries to keep as much as it can the same, protected, dancing.
And of course Heart is perfectly happy with keeping things the same, Moth isn't.

And for your last comment, don't drag Harmony into this.

 

[Shaper47]

And for your last comment, don't drag Harmony into this.

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???

I have no idea what you are going on about here.

How does Velvet being the pony in charge of her sons (instead of their father) have to do with Harmony?

Those are two completely different topics.

The Moth was born from humanity, The Wheel precedes them.

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???

Right, stuff from alternate histories that don't exist in the quest aside.

Moth lore is explicitly different the Heart lore.

The Moth is explicitly different then the Wheel.

Moth might have come from/be birthed by Heart/Wheel but it/they are different then their origin.

So logically Velvet Covers is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided and whatever lore of Velvet Covers defines is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided's lore of Agony.

 

[DelightedOne]

???

I have no idea what you are going on about here.

How does Velvet being the pony in charge of her sons (instead of their father) have to do with Harmony?

Those are two completely different topics.

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My mistake then, the "fire" and "casting a shadow" part sounded like one of your anti-Harmony lines.

Right, stuff from alternate histories that don't exist in the quest aside.

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Well, Baldomare confirmed that ponies cursed themselves with the Moth just like humans did.

After all, as the old saying went, in the forests of the first continent, our ancestors cursed themselves with their own god… Tell me, Velvet, do you know what that means? Or rather, do you know what that meant?"

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Moth lore is explicitly different the Heart lore.

The Moth is explicitly different then the Wheel.

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Yes, they are different things, but like I said, they are remarkably similar and like you just said

Moth might have come from/be birthed by Heart/Wheel but it/they are different then their origin.

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They came from the same place, siblings, if you are willing to use that term for a law of reality.

So logically Velvet Covers is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided and whatever lore of Velvet Covers defines is explicitly different then the Wolf-Divided's lore of Agony.

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Of course, but will still be a legacy of Agony. Blood giving its place to Flesh won't change everything, just give it a persepective closer to mortal nature instead of the higher conceptual side of it.

 

[OurLadyOfWires]

Scheduled vote count started by OurLadyOfWires on Nov 24, 2025 at 7:59 PM, finished with 76 posts and 18 votes.

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  7 people have voted

  [X] Gift her inspiration.

  • Shaper47
  • Arrkhon
  • Bakkasama
  • Darkday
  • Nevermort
  • Cochimetl
  • spiderhellian

  6 people have voted

  [X] Gift her tools.

  • Rafuki22
  • Sintonir
  • keykigdom
  • Talon Tiger Dino
  • Shaper47
  • Limabot

  5 people have voted

  [X] Gift her freedom.

  • ses
  • Greymere
  • DelightedOne
  • Random Anon
  • Limabot

  5 people have voted

  [X] Gift her influence.

  • Shaper47
  • Potdl
  • Biowolf
  • Limabot
  • spiderhellian

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Ignore this vote-counting. Voting is still opened.

All votes will be counted, from the proper relevant threadmark onwards, so no need to re-cast your votes either (but do remember to pick the proper threadmark when making a tally).

Vote should close wednesday night or thursday morning, so no rush.

Be well, everyone.

 

[Biowolf]

I feel like the thread routinely turns away from cultish actions see The Wildhoof Club. and I personally would like to avoid spawning more wolf actions (they make me feel bad for actively putting evil into the world).

Why not just kick it down the road and let soft be her own cult leader. Then we can just focus on getting Glory and becoming a new God.

 

[ses]

I feel like the thread routinely turns away from cultish actions see The Wildhoof Club. and I personally would like to avoid spawning more wolf actions (they make me feel bad for actively putting evil into the world).

Why not just kick it down the road and let soft be her own cult leader. Then we can just focus on getting Glory and becoming a new God.

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The best way to get Glory is by having the Wolf cult actually provide us with stuff. Having a cult that we can direct is going to pay the investment back in spades.

1 Velvet AP is very valuable yes, but having an entire cult complete with Cadre and outer circle minions is going to pay back even moreso.

If the Cult starting turn after next can provide a corpse, an Attention, and a Mare in the Light summoning each turn, that's well into the net positive on AP for Velvet, even not including the fact that we've been in Bits Hell for the entire quest because we keep dropping HUNDREDS of bits into Reagent crafting due entirely to lack of Cadre. With even a small cadre bonus we no longer need to spend so much on reagents and we can send out more Expeditions to get hundreds of bits worth of artifacts and books to advance our Lore levels and get ready for All In.

 

[DelightedOne]

1 Velvet AP is very valuable yes, but having an entire cult complete with Cadre and outer circle minions is going to pay back even moreso.

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Now you have me wondering if we can have Jade train the cadre for us, since she did that for the Wildhoof Club.

Edit: Hell, maybe we could even get Comet Feet on it, he was Inner Circle too.

 

[Biowolf]

The best way to get Glory is by having the Wolf cult actually provide us with stuff. Having a cult that we can direct is going to pay the investment back in spades.

1 Velvet AP is very valuable yes, but having an entire cult complete with Cadre and outer circle minions is going to pay back even moreso.

If the Cult starting turn after next can provide a corpse, an Attention, and a Mare in the Light summoning each turn, that's well into the net positive on AP for Velvet, even not including the fact that we've been in Bits Hell for the entire quest because we keep dropping HUNDREDS of bits into Reagent crafting due entirely to lack of Cadre. With even a small cadre bonus we no longer need to spend so much on reagents and we can send out more Expeditions to get hundreds of bits worth of artifacts and books to advance our Lore levels and get ready for All In.

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Saying the best way to get Glory is the Wolf is like saying the best way to eat money is by murdering a family and looting their home. I fundamentally disagree and feel that the best way to get Glory is to complete the trials and ascend (maybe through murdering only one person, maybe by eating them). The Wolf is faster not better.

And I agree the cadre and cult would be useful but the Lunar Bureau exists almost specifically to find the problems of Equestrian and deal with them. There is 0% chance the Wolf Cult and Bureau won't come into conflict once they are discovered. I'd rather not have to panic disengage and deal with potential fallout. Just turn the Bureau into a cult they are overflowing with Bits (in theory)

 

[ses]

Now you have me wondering if we can have Jade train the cadre for us, since she did that for the Wildhoof Club.

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I'm pretty sure "training a cadre" is what we're paying to get when the QM says that it'll take "one or two turns" of setup to be a functioning cult.

Saying the best way to get Glory is the Wolf is like saying the best way to eat money is by murdering a family and looting their home. I fundamentally disagree and feel that the best way to get Glory is to complete the trials and ascend (maybe through murdering only one person, maybe by eating them). The Wolf is faster not better.

And I agree the cadre and cult would be useful but the Lunar Bureau exists almost specifically to find the problems of Equestrian and deal with them. There is 0% chance the Wolf Cult and Bureau won't come into conflict once they are discovered. I'd rather not have to panic disengage and deal with potential fallout. Just turn the Bureau into a cult they are overflowing with Bits (in theory)

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I dont want to take the Wolf option. I want to take the Outer Circle of fairly normal noob occultists. None of that requires invoking the Wolf. Seriously, read the actual chapter and see how they're basically the exact same sorts of ponies that made up the outer circle of the Wildhoof Club. Giving them leadership is not invoking the Wolf, and it's not empowering the Wolf. It's literally the exact opposite because they're no longer on their own desperate for guidance that only comes from the Wolf-Sons speaking through Soft not knowing anything that's going on.

Having Velvet lead the cult is our best option for the ponyville cult and the Bureau to not interact with each other. And the Bureau is extremely limited in flexibility and actions. It's going to take us another 3 turns of burning our commissioner action for them to be at the level zero point, and even then they're going to be very limited in actions per turn, even if they're far better resourced. Having an extra organization we can offload grunt work to makes everyone better off.

for once I agree with Shaper. Velvet APs are our most valuable resource, followed right after by Name APs and bits. We can't really afford it when we have so few turns left before All In. Realistically it's going to be a minimum of 3 turns (worst case scenario with Celestia gaining Lantern levels each turn) to I think AT BEST 6 turns.

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It takes "one or maybe two" turns for the Support Group to be ready, it takes another 3 full turns minimum for the Bureau to be ready. We've already committed resources to Soothe the Night and Bureau training. Maybe you think that was a mistake, and I totally understand if you do. But we're already in a situation where one turn to get a cult paying back its investment is already faster than the other investments we're currently actively making. So skipping this would make no sense.

 

[Greymere]

Saying the best way to get Glory is the Wolf is like saying the best way to eat money is by murdering a family and looting their home. I fundamentally disagree and feel that the best way to get Glory is to complete the trials and ascend (maybe through murdering only one person, maybe by eating them). The Wolf is faster not better.

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No one is saying that. Taking control of the cult is nowhere near the same thing as invoking an RA, and having direct control of the cult would in fact be the most reliable method of making sure they don't get up too anything too Wolfy, as we'll have immediate oversight instead of throwing something at them with no real direction or guidance and wandering off.

There are no trials remaining. There is no ascent left.

There is only preparing for All In, and preparations means more books, more Sacraments, more artifacts, more spirits. Things having an Outer Circle can provide or facilitate, especially since the Bureau has like. An actual job that they need to be actively working on to prevent the Celestia Wrath Meter from ticking up. Edit: And they're not going to be fully converted until the end of Turn 25 at the fastest. If, at any point btwn now and then, we want/need to do something else with our Commissioner action, that timeline moves to at least the end of T26.

 

[Biowolf]

I did actually misread your post that's my bad,
"The best way to get glory is to have the Wolf (cult) read over this)) provide us stuff."

I still think that cult is more hassle than it's worth but I understand your argument better. Im fine if take over wins on that note, I just don't want to build up just to tear down and panic over another cult

 

[DelightedOne]

I'm pretty sure "training a cadre" is what we're paying to get when the QM says that it'll take "one or two turns" of setup to be a functioning cult.

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I'm just hoping that involving Jade(and maybe Comet) will lower the maximum time to "single turn" instead of maybe 2.

There is also possible bonuses and the narrative of Jade Whistle, a pony that has known grief for most of her life(and dealt with it healthily in the end), meeting that particular shade of Wolf is... interesting, to say the least.

 

[Talon Tiger Dino]

The thing about corrupting the Wolf as the Wolf corrupts you is also a matter of scale: when the Wolf corrupts, it's a massive change wrought upon the entire world and a staining of a powerful cultist's soul. What little we have corrupted the Wolf still results in self-destructing lunacy, just with less collateral, and has been through the lens of Soft Sweeps, not Velvet.

And that makes sense. The WD is an Hour, and so whenever its equivalent to an inch is given to it it is a mortal's mile, while him giving a mortal's inch is practically nothing to him.

To put this another way, to better a wound is to heal it, to heal a wound requires not aggravating it, and even one big scratching session sets you back significantly.

If you want Soft to continue making her Wolf-bit into an excellent therapist, then let her keep molding the bit she has, rather than poke at that wound.

[X] Gift her tools.
[X] Gift her influence.

I have decided that the Mansus is too good at poking wounds to gift her tools.

I changed my mind, have to remember that Velvet used Lores as therapy to great success and thus would recommend it to Sweeps. And I don't want Velvet taking over the Wolf Cult because through her lens the Wolf is Evil, Paranoia, and Ash. I'd rather see what Soft keeps doing with them.

 

[Anjaxis]

[X] Gift her tools.

 

[IronHydra]

[X] Gift her inspiration.
[X] Gift her influence.